Author Topic: Obama To Visit Kenya In July  (Read 103464 times)

Offline mya88

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #180 on: May 01, 2015, 05:04:37 AM »
@ Bella
When it comes to Obama...its simplistic to call his predicament maringo. I don't see what maringo has to do with anything when its comes to governing a country so complex and entrenched in racism as America. I think Obama is trying a delicate balance between appeasing the majority while still addressing the racial injustices that plague America without appearing too 'black.' You can hate him for that, but that is the reason he won the election twice in a country that has 13% of black population. Time and time again, he has addressed the racism issue, and each time, everyone has had an opinion on what he should have or not have said....... I am not sure one man can do all that. There are leaders all over the country that can continue to champion what plagues the black community and assist him, while he is figuring how to prevent ways btw Iran and Israel, or ISIS or Boko haram etc. When it comes to that communism you talk about, Obama's upbringing is as American as the next white person who simply thinks of his own family so there is nothing much there to be expected.

I think it is more than that.   Consider the entire history of blacks in America and the circumstances even today.    And let us imagine that Obama went all out, railing against racism and saying all the "Black-Power" stuff that one can imagine.  What difference would that actually make?   Lasting changes for blacks in America cannot be made without being mindful of the white power-structure.   Even the success of the civil-rights movement owes quite a bit to the fact that at some point a sufficient number of whites saw the light.  To my mind, Martin Luther King achieved far more than the Black Panthers (and the like); and there's a good reason for that.

I have listened to Obama speak many times on racism, and I think he is keenly aware of the issues.     But, as I see it, he is also aware of certain practicalities.   Short of a violent revolution, which is probably impossible, the "black problem"  in the USA has to be dealt with in the context realities.   Those realities should also include, however painful at the moment, the need to remind people of responsibilities to self: sure you are angry, but why destroy where you live?   I would consider that Obama had failed in his duties if he did not point out the two sides of the coin.


That's a good summary of what I think he feels he has to do.  But I think he is a step behind people(including whites I would have put right of center a few years ago) on the street. 

Most people, that I know, now understand the issue as separate from conditions in the black ghetto.  Obama comes across as stiff.  I don't know whether it's his personality or an attempt to distance himself from the angry black man appearance.  He has never shown anger in 8 years in power.

Sometimes, I feel like the ghost of Jeremiah Wright still haunts him.  Most people who voted for him, knew he is black with all the baggage that brings.  To me that is a constituency that does not need much convincing that cops need to stop enjoying impunity whenever they kill blacks.

Sure he can acknowlegde other issues.  But it would not hurt any cause to separate them from the sanctity of life.  The man needs to say black lives unconditionally matter
In your opinion, what more do you think Obama should do or have done differently in all these instances that involve young black males. He has talked about it since his election in 2008 when Jeremiah White debacle threatened to derail his presidency. He did it in a way that was easier for all to understand. Up until then the Rev Al Sharp ton et al who had taken the more radical approach hadn't made much leeway into American mainstream. He sent the Attorney general in Ferguson for even more support. He talked about Travon Martin and made a personal comparison. Ultimately the judicial system had to take its course. Obama;s personality is more of a smooth level headed guy and he is unlikely to show strong emotions even when I am upset. I am just not sure what more he should be doing at this point. He was on TV condemning the looting while at the same time reminding America that this problem isn't now and that they shouldn't be acting surprised. He again called in the Feds to look into these police misconduct instances.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mya88

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #181 on: May 01, 2015, 05:14:57 AM »
@ Bella
When it comes to Obama...its simplistic to call his predicament maringo. I don't see what maringo has to do with anything when its comes to governing a country so complex and entrenched in racism as America. I think Obama is trying a delicate balance between appeasing the majority while still addressing the racial injustices that plague America without appearing too 'black.' You can hate him for that, but that is the reason he won the election twice in a country that has 13% of black population. Time and time again, he has addressed the racism issue, and each time, everyone has had an opinion on what he should have or not have said....... I am not sure one man can do all that. There are leaders all over the country that can continue to champion what plagues the black community and assist him, while he is figuring how to prevent ways btw Iran and Israel, or ISIS or Boko haram etc. When it comes to that communism you talk about, Obama's upbringing is as American as the next white person who simply thinks of his own family so there is nothing much there to be expected.
Hey, Mya,

I totally understood Obama's need to appear "neutral" before both elections. I just don't understand the reason for it now, especially when it comes to blacks in the USA. Maringo za peni nane is just my Nairobi way of calling him elitist. He used to be accused of that before but I thought it was Republican political "weaponry", but to me it seems very true after 2012, when he is terrified of being associated with his black DNA too much even though there're no more real political risks involved. At that point, he should highlight the fact that he is black and the most powerful/influential black at that, therefore has every reason to be concerned about such issues, not try to minimize the black association more. Blacks are marginalized, poor, struggling, why should it be strange if the first black president gives priority to their issues? If blacks were swimming in prosperity, it would make sense to fear looking like you are helping "your own". Even if there were no political risks left, there would be an integrity issue if blacks did not really have big problems. But what integrity issue is there with taking up the black issues in the circumstances? His shyness is not explainable just by the political risks at this point.

Hi Bella
I don't think he is neutral to the issue.....I think he is addressing it in the only way he knows how. When I stated not appearing to black, I meant he doesn't want to take a radical stand such as the ones used back in the days of Black guerrillas because those didn't achieve much. I also think his personality and upbringing influence his outlook on things and he may not see them exactly as much as most blacks do (not sure). He associates with blacks and have them working on his administration great deal. Just recently he hired the first female who also happens to be black a midst great opposition. * long months he fought to have her signed in and the republicans hesitated. Moonki has his finger on it, I cant quiet explain it. The whole world knows he is black so I don't see any need in him highlighting his blackness. I think he has been able to balance addressing the issues quiet well so far. There is always gonna be people who arent satisfied.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #182 on: May 01, 2015, 06:16:18 AM »
In your opinion, what more do you think Obama should do or have done differently in all these instances that involve young black males. He has talked about it since his election in 2008 when Jeremiah White debacle threatened to derail his presidency. He did it in a way that was easier for all to understand. Up until then the Rev Al Sharp ton et al who had taken the more radical approach hadn't made much leeway into American mainstream. He sent the Attorney general in Ferguson for even more support. He talked about Travon Martin and made a personal comparison. Ultimately the judicial system had to take its course. Obama;s personality is more of a smooth level headed guy and he is unlikely to show strong emotions even when I am upset. I am just not sure what more he should be doing at this point. He was on TV condemning the looting while at the same time reminding America that this problem isn't now and that they shouldn't be acting surprised. He again called in the Feds to look into these police misconduct instances.
There is a group that will not understand no matter what.  In the process of trying to make this shrinking group happy, he is clouding the issue. 

Everybody knows things need to change in the black community.  Everybody knows this is not going to happen overnight. 

Should the sanctity of their lives wait until that happens to be respected?  That is the point I feel Obama is not only shirking from making, but actually drowning out.

He can lecture blacks at any other time, and make those who would otherwise not understand happy, instead of waiting for some tragedy to occur.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Logan

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #183 on: May 07, 2015, 03:22:13 AM »
For comic relief:  8)

Quote from: Logan
So WSR Is Still considered an ICC Inductee and MUST stay away from Obama entourage?  :D

Word in the high streets of power is that Deputy President William is now blaming powerful statehouse operatives for blocking his alleged scheduled visit to DRC Congo.  :lol:  :lol:

And Life Goes On..

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2015, 07:02:06 PM »
The Hustler Mkono Mrefu, surely a rich man by now, is never too far from a scam.

Should this man be entrusted with the Presidency, why anyone would question that Kenyans are more than happy with the current state of affairs escapes me.
Quote
Deputy President William Ruto has been linked to a controversial Sh28 billion deal to put up a new referral hospital in Eldoret, with a Nairobi businessman claiming that there is a plot to fleece taxpayers of Sh11 billion in the deal.

The businessman, Herbert Ojwang', appeared before the National Assembly Public Investments Committee (PIC) and requested the committee chaired by Eldas MP Adan Keynan to investigate the matter, which he termed as a scandal to mint money for an individual.

Ojwang' claimed he was the brains behind the idea of upgrading the current Moi Teaching and Referral Hospital (MRTH) in Eldoret, a plan he said was later taken away from him under the instructions of the deputy president and transformed into a scandal.

The whistleblower, who tabled to the committee an audio recording and pictures he took with the DP, where he was allegedly coerced to pull out of the deal, said the original design and cost for the modernisation of the hospital was Sh17 billion.

He said the budget has since risen to Sh28 billion since it was taken away from him.
http://standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000161461/whistleblower-links-ruto-to-sh28b-hospital-scam
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #185 on: May 20, 2015, 02:21:34 AM »
Commentary from our "sister"/"brother" website:

http://jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/9341/kenya-dumb-idea-president?page=1&scrollTo=133149

Quote
so in my view the need to keep the perception that Chinese are here to exploit us wheas USA are here to help is what is making Obama take that risk explained in the article starting this thread. this brings to mind the very 1st USA ambassador to Kenya after we attained the flag and national anthem independence. he was expelled by old Jomo but he left a gem 'The Blacks and the Reds' which is still unavailable in our bookshops but a worthy read 50 years later.

This is the sort of mindset that got Africa f**ked during the Cold War: while the major protagonists were just playing games, Africa took it upon itself to fight a Hot War on their behalf.   And the results are still evident today.   

How did that happen?   African "leaders" thought they were being clever in playing "East vs. West".   And some today still think so. And the manamba have also bought into this idea that everything the West (especially the USA) does in Africa is a reaction to the East (now the Chinese).   I think not; perhaps it has not happened in Africa, but elsewhere lessons have been learned since the Cold War.    In particular, the USA does not see it as an over-riding concern that it should go all-out stymie Chinese actions in Africa.    Had it been otherwise, we would have seen more US "action" in Africa.  The current US approach is best captured in the views of Brzezinski, and he is a guy that even Obama listens to quite carefully.   That view is that the USA has no really vital interests in Africa---if you disagree, then list them for discussion---and to the extent that the USA should be concerned with the Chinese foray in Africa, it should be on how best to share Africa and whatever it has.  He is also of the view that African leaders are incapable of charting their own path and so are easily "bendable".  I doubt that Obama is that cynical, but I see no evidence that his government has been particularly concerned with China in Africa, in the sense that they felt something there needed a "hard counter". (By evidence, I mean more than words.)

This is what seems to have caused the current excitement:

Quote

That seems perfectly sensible advice, and it is astonishing that it is even necessary.  What the "the West is just jealous" brigade seems to have missed is the need to reflect on that rather obvious advice.   There seems to be no end to "the West is saying or doing this and that because China is doing this and that".   But what is really required is not Cold-War type of soft-headed claims; the better response would an objective consideration of whether Africa is really gaining from this new love affair with Kung Fu.    A concrete argument to that end would be far better than quoting, out of context, some guy who dies ages ago.

Ah, yes; Obama's visit to Kenya:

* First, given the historical significance of Obama's becoming the US president and his connections to Kenya, it was "inevitable" that a visit to Kenya should happen at some point.  It did not happen earlier for a fairly obvious reason---and even now whether or not he will meet with a certain assistant leader is still in doubt.

* Second, Obama has been acting: shortly after he became the US president, Kenya shot into the Top-10 of US aid recipients.  (Some other countries saw their lot cut.)   A quick look at where that money is going will show that none of it is intended to "counter the Chinese".

And the little matter of Kenya being "vital" to US interests in the region.  That's Cold-War stuff that got many suckered into the idea that Kenya is vital because it is "an island in an ocean of chaos" or whatever.   Today that little con is being applied in the context of terrorism, but look along that coast and consider who's really vital in that dubious "war"---hint, hint: Djibouti.

Quite a few years ago, I had the opportunity (in Georgetown) to hear Brzezinski talk, or perform, depending on one's viewpoint.    He barely acknowledged Africa during the 90 or so minutes, so at "question-time" I brought it up---by specifically pointing out that Kenya was an "important ally" of the USA.   I can no longer remember his exact answer, but it was something along the lines of (a) why exactly did I think Kenya was an "important ally" and (b) what exactly did Kenya have that the USA wanted or needed and couldn't get elsewhere. (Perhaps you have some answers?)   Rather unhelpfully, he also pointed out that we live in a capitalist world, and in said world the USA works very hard to construct  mutually favourable trade agreements with important allies.  (How many of those are in Africa.)

So: what exactly does the USA have to worry bout Kung Fu's being in Kenya?   The destruction of our wildlife?


In conclusion, RE Kenya:

(1) There will be no  great bag of goodies from Obama's visit.   Anyone who follows the trend of US Congressional budget stuff knows that most of the money---which would come through USAID---has probably already been settled on. (If you can't find your local diplomat, he or she is probably in Washington D.C. for the annual begging season.)

(2) The USA is not competing with China in Kenya: US funding is largely focused on human development. (Kenya is already a huge beneficiary of the Power Africa programme, and there's more to come; but, even if it is not Health & Society, again the driver there is human development.)   China, on the other hand, does infrastructure: chicken gets eaten, expensive loans are entered into, and folks end up with stuff that won't last very long.   (Note to myself: return, on another thread, to the fact that what is needed is not forever-new infrastructure; it's a culture of maintenance.)

(3) I see Obama's visit in huge human dimensions.   In biblical terms, the very stone that the builders rejected has now become the chief cornerstone.   Or, if you prefer, the underdog got up, barked, and bit somebody.   And what an inspiring tale for Kenya.  The very place that on his last visit the BIG PEOPLE once dismissed him as mere "junior senator".  Ha!
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Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #186 on: May 20, 2015, 08:05:54 AM »
Nice yarn. After all US never really care about Africa. And so why again should we care about US?. It seem China somewhat cares more..and we need to pay attention to her.
Commentary from our "sister"/"brother" website:

http://jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/9341/kenya-dumb-idea-president?page=1&scrollTo=133149

Quote
so in my view the need to keep the perception that Chinese are here to exploit us wheas USA are here to help is what is making Obama take that risk explained in the article starting this thread. this brings to mind the very 1st USA ambassador to Kenya after we attained the flag and national anthem independence. he was expelled by old Jomo but he left a gem 'The Blacks and the Reds' which is still unavailable in our bookshops but a worthy read 50 years later.

This is the sort of mindset that got Africa f**ked during the Cold War: while the major protagonists were just playing games, Africa took it upon itself to fight a Hot War on their behalf.   And the results are still evident today.   

How did that happen?   African "leaders" thought they were being clever in playing "East vs. West".   And some today still think so. And the manamba have also bought into this idea that everything the West (especially the USA) does in Africa is a reaction to the East (now the Chinese).   I think not; perhaps it has not happened in Africa, but elsewhere lessons have been learned since the Cold War.    In particular, the USA does not see it as an over-riding concern that it should go all-out stymie Chinese actions in Africa.    Had it been otherwise, we would have seen more US "action" in Africa.  The current US approach is best captured in the views of Brzezinski, and he is a guy that even Obama listens to quite carefully.   That view is that the USA has no really vital interests in Africa---if you disagree, then list them for discussion---and to the extent that the USA should be concerned with the Chinese foray in Africa, it should be on how best to share Africa and whatever it has.  He is also of the view that African leaders are incapable of charting their own path and so are easily "bendable".  I doubt that Obama is that cynical, but I see no evidence that his government has been particularly concerned with China in Africa, in the sense that they felt something there needed a "hard counter". (By evidence, I mean more than words.)

This is what seems to have caused the current excitement:

Quote

That seems perfectly sensible advice, and it is astonishing that it is even necessary.  What the "the West is just jealous" brigade seems to have missed is the need to reflect on that rather obvious advice.   There seems to be no end to "the West is saying or doing this and that because China is doing this and that".   But what is really required is not Cold-War type of soft-headed claims; the better response would an objective consideration of whether Africa is really gaining from this new love affair with Kung Fu.    A concrete argument to that end would be far better than quoting, out of context, some guy who dies ages ago.

Ah, yes; Obama's visit to Kenya:

* First, given the historical significance of Obama's becoming the US president and his connections to Kenya, it was "inevitable" that a visit to Kenya should happen at some point.  It did not happen earlier for a fairly obvious reason---and even now whether or not he will meet with a certain assistant leader is still in doubt.

* Second, Obama has been acting: shortly after he became the US president, Kenya shot into the Top-10 of US aid recipients.  (Some other countries saw their lot cut.)   A quick look at where that money is going will show that none of it is intended to "counter the Chinese".

And the little matter of Kenya being "vital" to US interests in the region.  That's Cold-War stuff that got many suckered into the idea that Kenya is vital because it is "an island in an ocean of chaos" or whatever.   Today that little con is being applied in the context of terrorism, but look along that coast and consider who's really vital in that dubious "war"---hint, hint: Djibouti.

Quite a few years ago, I had the opportunity (in Georgetown) to hear Brzezinski talk, or perform, depending on one's viewpoint.    He barely acknowledged Africa during the 90 or so minutes, so at "question-time" I brought it up---by specifically pointing out that Kenya was an "important ally" of the USA.   I can no longer remember his exact answer, but it was something along the lines of (a) why exactly did I think Kenya was an "important ally" and (b) what exactly did Kenya have that the USA wanted or needed and couldn't get elsewhere. (Perhaps you have some answers?)   Rather unhelpfully, he also pointed out that we live in a capitalist world, and in said world the USA works very hard to construct  mutually favourable trade agreements with important allies.  (How many of those are in Africa.)

So: what exactly does the USA have to worry bout Kung Fu's being in Kenya?   The destruction of our wildlife?


In conclusion, RE Kenya:

(1) There will be no  great bag of goodies from Obama's visit.   Anyone who follows the trend of US Congressional budget stuff knows that most of the money---which would come through USAID---has probably already been settled on. (If you can't find your local diplomat, he or she is probably in Washington D.C. for the annual begging season.)

(2) The USA is not competing with China in Kenya: US funding is largely focused on human development. (Kenya is already a huge beneficiary of the Power Africa programme, and there's more to come; but, even if it is not Health & Society, again the driver there is human development.)   China, on the other hand, does infrastructure: chicken gets eaten, expensive loans are entered into, and folks end up with stuff that won't last very long.   (Note to myself: return, on another thread, to the fact that what is needed is not forever-new infrastructure; it's a culture of maintenance.)

(3) I see Obama's visit in huge human dimensions.   In biblical terms, the very stone that the builders rejected has now become the chief cornerstone.   Or, if you prefer, the underdog got up, barked, and bit somebody.   And what an inspiring tale for Kenya.  The very place that on his last visit the BIG PEOPLE once dismissed him as mere "junior senator".  Ha!

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #187 on: May 20, 2015, 03:03:35 PM »
Nice yarn. After all US never really care about Africa. And so why again should we care about US?. It seem China somewhat cares more..and we need to pay attention to her.

No country cares for another country.  And especially not Africa.    Africans need to get rid of the sort of thinking displayed above and start caring about and for themselves.
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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #188 on: May 20, 2015, 04:18:30 PM »
No country is an island. African needs friends. The more genuine the better. The more generous the better. China is just a better friend to Kenya than the US. A few notches better. US is not that bad...but considering it's wealth and the time it had that wealth...it could and ought to have done a better job. A poorer china has done far more in less time than US of A ever did.

Now you can yarn another thread to explain away US failure as far as Africa or kenya is concerned.

No country cares for another country.  And especially not Africa.    Africans need to get rid of the sort of thinking displayed above and start caring about and for themselves.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #189 on: May 20, 2015, 04:25:33 PM »
Commentary from our "sister"/"brother" website:

http://jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/9341/kenya-dumb-idea-president?page=1&scrollTo=133149

Quote
so in my view the need to keep the perception that Chinese are here to exploit us wheas USA are here to help is what is making Obama take that risk explained in the article starting this thread. this brings to mind the very 1st USA ambassador to Kenya after we attained the flag and national anthem independence. he was expelled by old Jomo but he left a gem 'The Blacks and the Reds' which is still unavailable in our bookshops but a worthy read 50 years later.

This is the sort of mindset that got Africa f**ked during the Cold War: while the major protagonists were just playing games, Africa took it upon itself to fight a Hot War on their behalf.   And the results are still evident today.   

How did that happen?   African "leaders" thought they were being clever in playing "East vs. West".   And some today still think so. And the manamba have also bought into this idea that everything the West (especially the USA) does in Africa is a reaction to the East (now the Chinese).   I think not; perhaps it has not happened in Africa, but elsewhere lessons have been learned since the Cold War.    In particular, the USA does not see it as an over-riding concern that it should go all-out stymie Chinese actions in Africa.    Had it been otherwise, we would have seen more US "action" in Africa.  The current US approach is best captured in the views of Brzezinski, and he is a guy that even Obama listens to quite carefully.   That view is that the USA has no really vital interests in Africa---if you disagree, then list them for discussion---and to the extent that the USA should be concerned with the Chinese foray in Africa, it should be on how best to share Africa and whatever it has.  He is also of the view that African leaders are incapable of charting their own path and so are easily "bendable".  I doubt that Obama is that cynical, but I see no evidence that his government has been particularly concerned with China in Africa, in the sense that they felt something there needed a "hard counter". (By evidence, I mean more than words.)

This is what seems to have caused the current excitement:

Quote

That seems perfectly sensible advice, and it is astonishing that it is even necessary.  What the "the West is just jealous" brigade seems to have missed is the need to reflect on that rather obvious advice.   There seems to be no end to "the West is saying or doing this and that because China is doing this and that".   But what is really required is not Cold-War type of soft-headed claims; the better response would an objective consideration of whether Africa is really gaining from this new love affair with Kung Fu.    A concrete argument to that end would be far better than quoting, out of context, some guy who dies ages ago.

Ah, yes; Obama's visit to Kenya:

* First, given the historical significance of Obama's becoming the US president and his connections to Kenya, it was "inevitable" that a visit to Kenya should happen at some point.  It did not happen earlier for a fairly obvious reason---and even now whether or not he will meet with a certain assistant leader is still in doubt.

* Second, Obama has been acting: shortly after he became the US president, Kenya shot into the Top-10 of US aid recipients.  (Some other countries saw their lot cut.)   A quick look at where that money is going will show that none of it is intended to "counter the Chinese".

And the little matter of Kenya being "vital" to US interests in the region.  That's Cold-War stuff that got many suckered into the idea that Kenya is vital because it is "an island in an ocean of chaos" or whatever.   Today that little con is being applied in the context of terrorism, but look along that coast and consider who's really vital in that dubious "war"---hint, hint: Djibouti.

Quite a few years ago, I had the opportunity (in Georgetown) to hear Brzezinski talk, or perform, depending on one's viewpoint.    He barely acknowledged Africa during the 90 or so minutes, so at "question-time" I brought it up---by specifically pointing out that Kenya was an "important ally" of the USA.   I can no longer remember his exact answer, but it was something along the lines of (a) why exactly did I think Kenya was an "important ally" and (b) what exactly did Kenya have that the USA wanted or needed and couldn't get elsewhere. (Perhaps you have some answers?)   Rather unhelpfully, he also pointed out that we live in a capitalist world, and in said world the USA works very hard to construct  mutually favourable trade agreements with important allies.  (How many of those are in Africa.)

So: what exactly does the USA have to worry bout Kung Fu's being in Kenya?   The destruction of our wildlife?


In conclusion, RE Kenya:

(1) There will be no  great bag of goodies from Obama's visit.   Anyone who follows the trend of US Congressional budget stuff knows that most of the money---which would come through USAID---has probably already been settled on. (If you can't find your local diplomat, he or she is probably in Washington D.C. for the annual begging season.)

(2) The USA is not competing with China in Kenya: US funding is largely focused on human development. (Kenya is already a huge beneficiary of the Power Africa programme, and there's more to come; but, even if it is not Health & Society, again the driver there is human development.)   China, on the other hand, does infrastructure: chicken gets eaten, expensive loans are entered into, and folks end up with stuff that won't last very long.   (Note to myself: return, on another thread, to the fact that what is needed is not forever-new infrastructure; it's a culture of maintenance.)

(3) I see Obama's visit in huge human dimensions.   In biblical terms, the very stone that the builders rejected has now become the chief cornerstone.   Or, if you prefer, the underdog got up, barked, and bit somebody.   And what an inspiring tale for Kenya.  The very place that on his last visit the BIG PEOPLE once dismissed him as mere "junior senator".  Ha!
MOON Ki,

I don't believe Obama and the US concern is the state of affairs of the human in Kenya.  If they had those concerns, they would appreciate the pain Kenya has to endure in support of their war on terror...perhaps nudge kamwana towards a settlement with bandits.  Kenya is turning into another Pakistan in front of our eyes.

It is indeed hilarious though, when a pawn thinks it is the one playing the player.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline vooke

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #190 on: May 20, 2015, 04:49:43 PM »
I don't believe Obama and the US concern is the state of affairs of the human in Kenya.  If they had those concerns, they would appreciate the pain Kenya has to endure in support of their war on terror...perhaps nudge kamwana towards a settlement with bandits.  Kenya is turning into another Pakistan in front of our eyes.

It is indeed hilarious though, when a pawn thinks it is the one playing the player.

Termie,
I believe Osama's business here is al shabaab. He is here to ensure Kenia keeps shipping back their warriors in body bags from Somalia.

We have seen ISIS beheading in Libya, an unthinkable act if Gadaffi was still at the helm. They are running Yemen to the sewers after Syria. Strategy is simple; keep all basket Arab economies running and ISIS will be largely a Syria-Iraq headache.

Ouruto may run down Kenia but Somalia is the one thing that makes them relevant out there as far as U.S. is concerned
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #191 on: May 20, 2015, 04:52:40 PM »
No country is an island. African needs friends. The more genuine the better. The more generous the better. China is just a better friend to Kenya than the US. A few notches better. US is not that bad...but considering it's wealth and the time it had that wealth...it could and ought to have done a better job. A poorer china has done far more in less time than US of A ever did.

First, China is not generous, and Africans need to free themselves of any such illusions.   As an example, the billions Kenya got for the railway come with (a) interest rates and (b) costly insurance.  That is contrast to US government aid that is entirely grants.

Second, we need not repeat what has already been stated about the expenditure of US money vs. China. What's more, it's easy to make an assertion such as yours---that China has done more---but I note that there is little concrete evidence to go along with the statement.   For that reason, there is little there to discuss or debate, as there never is with any statement that borders on religious faith.

Third, "who has done more" done more does not particularly interest me.   My view is that fundamental, positive, and long-lasting changes in Africa will be made only by Africans themselves.  And the sooner they get on with it, instead of forever looking for endless "help", the better.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #192 on: May 20, 2015, 05:02:50 PM »
The point remain why is Obama coming here a big news..if US doesn't give a shi.et about us here in Kenya. And why should I be interested to know when he lands or not. That remain the subject of this thread. Obama visit to Kenya. US POTUS visit to Kenya.

Otherwise we have many threads here where we talk about what we as kenyans can do for ourselves. You don't have to shove up our faces this notion of "do it yourself" everytime we discuss anything including US-Kenya mutual relationship.

I doubt there are that many people waiting for outside help (certainly not from Obama going by his clan in Kogelo); but if some help come along; we will appreciate.

Kenya in my view has trudged along despite being snubbed by western donors since 90s....when they use to support 60-80% of the budget..to now when they only support 2%.

Chinese are coming with BIG BUCKS (400B kshs in one project that will see economy hit 7.2% next yr and 6.9% this year)...now those are newsworthy news. Project that will reduce travel time btw important port city of mombasa and nairobi (east africa heart) from 8hrs to 4hrs (for passengers) and even lesser for cargo...and cheaply.

Not when Obama will be landing here for yet another lecture.

First, China is not generous, and Africans need to free themselves of any such illusions.   As an example, the billions Kenya got for the railway come with (a) interest rates and (b) costly insurance.  That is contrast to US government aid that is entirely grants.

Second, we need not repeat what has already been stated about the expenditure of US money vs. China. What's more, it's easy to make an assertion such as yours---that China has done more---but I note that there is little concrete evidence to go along with the statement.   For that reason, there is little there to discuss or debate, as there never is with any statement that borders on religious faith.

Third, "who has done more" done more does not particularly interest me.   My view is that fundamental, positive, and long-lasting changes in Africa will be made only by Africans themselves.  And the sooner they get on with it, instead of forever looking for endless "help", the better.

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #193 on: May 20, 2015, 05:15:53 PM »
Thanks to derided SGR...we will grow by 7% despite the tourism troubles and insecurity
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Kenya-headed-for-7pc-growth-/-/539552/2721396/-/fp70h3z/-/index.html

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #194 on: May 20, 2015, 05:24:43 PM »
MOON Ki,

I don't believe Obama and the US concern is the state of affairs of the human in Kenya. 

What I mean is that most US aid to Africa is geared towards human development---health, society, and whatever else USAID does.   Of that there is no doubt.   Whether that shows "concern" or not is another matter. 

Quote
If they had those concerns, they would appreciate the pain Kenya has to endure in support of their war on terror...perhaps nudge kamwana towards a settlement with bandits.  Kenya is turning into another Pakistan in front of our eyes.

What pain is that?   The odd bit of Al Shabab nastiness?  When I look at Kenya's problems, I see the Somalian adventure as very low down on the list.   One example I keep repeating: just look at the number of Kenyans who die each year from not having clean drinking water or a decent place to take a shit.   

A second point is that neither Kamwana's generals nor the foot-soldiers are particularly keen to withdraw from Somalia.   The latter get far better pay (on UN terms) than they would in Kenya, and the former are busy raking it in from the charcoal and sugar businesses.

And the third point is a question: do Kenyans really care?   I find it astonishing that, for example, figures of Kenyan casualties are almost impossible to get.  (Can you imagine that sort of situation in the USA?)  In fact, apart from the charcoal+sugar businesses, (a) hardly anyone in Kenya  seems to know what exactly the KDF does in Somalia and (b) even fewer seem to care.   And if Kenyans don't care, why should the Americans?  We get back to my point about people caring for and about themselves instead of looking to others to do it.

Lastly and depending on what you make of Wikileaks: Kenya had plans to go into Somalia about two years before it actually did and  the USA asked it to "re-consider":

https://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/12/09DJIBOUTI1391.html

The USA therefore cannot be properly blamed for then deciding that Kenyan foolishness could serve its aims in Somalia.  And it is logical: why waste American lives or even expensive drones when Kenya will readily supply manambas for canon fodder?   It is for Kenyans themselves to reach the required point of clarity.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #195 on: May 20, 2015, 05:55:18 PM »
Thanks to derided SGR...we will grow by 7% despite the tourism troubles and insecurity
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Kenya-headed-for-7pc-growth-/-/539552/2721396/-/fp70h3z/-/index.html

First: That newspaper report sure seems to have excited you.   Unlike you, I have read the actual IMF report.   Here it is:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/reo/2015/afr/eng/pdf/sreo0415.pdf

Can you and other SGR types point to the part where such a "role" is attributed to the SGR?

Second: As you may have noticed, I am more interested in humans rather than just economic growth or infrastructure.  The government of Kenya itself claims that in addition to lost lives, bad shitting and poor sanitation costs Kenya something like 1% of GDP.   Year after year.  Economic growth while shit kills people and hurts the economy.    What should that suggest to thinking people?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #196 on: May 20, 2015, 10:00:25 PM »
And you think economic growth is what? non-human development? you think a toilet is not infrastructure? why don't you show us one sewage network that US gov has done? Look here fool (i take great exception to using this word); economic growth captures human development. A country is complicated and there are 20% without toilet..while 20% have Ipads..you've to figure out thro' budgetting and free spirit of capitalism..what works. You cannot shutdown a country to concentrate on your 10 or 20 or 100001 human dev ideas...you allow free democracy and free capitalism to decide what the prioritirise are...and Africa (kenya) is working really hard towards that...free democracy (of ideas) and real capitalism (of  money).

Economy growth for those not so daft measure nearly every HUMAN Development indicator...from social sectors to financial to manufacturing to retail....to name it. They just don't have to say human for you to understand MPESA affect humans.


Second: As you may have noticed, I am more interested in humans rather than just economic growth or infrastructure.  The government of Kenya itself claims that in addition to lost lives, bad shitting and poor sanitation costs Kenya something like 1% of GDP.   Year after year.  Economic growth while shit kills people and hurts the economy.    What should that suggest to thinking people?


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #197 on: May 20, 2015, 10:18:22 PM »
And you think economic growth is what? non-human development? you think a toilet is not infrastructure? why don't you show us one sewage network that US gov has done? Look here fool (i take great exception to using this word); economic growth captures human development. A country is complicated and there are 20% without toilet..while 20% have Ipads..you've to figure out thro' budgetting and free spirit of capitalism..what works. You cannot shutdown a country to concentrate on your 10 or 20 or 100001 human dev ideas...you allow free democracy and free capitalism to decide what the prioritirise are...and Africa (kenya) is working really hard towards that...free democracy (of ideas) and real capitalism (of  money).

Economy growth for those not so daft measure nearly every HUMAN Development indicator...from social sectors to financial to manufacturing to retail....to name it. They just don't have to say human for you to understand MPESA affect humans.

Red: Why should the fact that Kenyans are dying from shit be a US problem?   What are Kenyans doing about it?   If you want to see sewerage networks done by Americans, go to America; that's where I expect their focus to be.

You might want to reflect on the idea of borrowing money to increase GDP by 1% while at the very same time complaining that shit is costing 1% of GDP.  To the extent that toilets are infrastructure worth the trouble, let's hear a bit more about those and a little less about Kung Fu and what he's up to.

No need to bother about the rest of your rant.  My point remains: stop continually jerking off over GDP growth (and fantasies about the SGR) when people are literally dying from shit.   Instead, I encourage you to think about how improvements in the economy can be made to benefit the majority and not just a few.     The hint for you is to try and understand that a country's GDP can increase without a corresponding improvement in the people's lot.
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Offline vooke

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #198 on: May 20, 2015, 10:39:31 PM »
MOON Ki,
You have consistently claimed that aid to Kenia shot under Osama or something even as some other countries have had their aid slashed. Could you please provide some sort of evidence for this? And apologies if I missed it. This thread is quite long and winding.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #199 on: May 20, 2015, 10:51:51 PM »
MOON Ki,
You have consistently claimed that aid to Kenia shot under Osama or something even as some other countries have had their aid slashed. Could you please provide some sort of evidence for this? And apologies if I missed it. This thread is quite long and winding.

As far as I can tell, you have access to the internet (and Google), and you generally seem to be a quite capable sort.    USAID data is publicly available to all, and you should have no trouble locating the right data.    And you can rest assured that I generally do my homework before I make such claims.   Doing people's homework for them is not something I care much for; but if you have data that you think contradicts my statement, that would be of interest.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.