Referendum Express Train Latest

[Omollo]

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This is unstoppable!

The Coalition for Reforms and Democracy (Cord) has already collected 1.4 million signatures in its push for a referendum.

The coalition, through its Okoa Kenya Movement secretariat, said it aimed to reach more than five million signatures, even though only one million are required to initiate a plebiscite.

The hunt for signatures, which is coordinated by the movement, started two weeks ago.

Cord said the first batch of 1,800 books distributed to senators, MPs and ODM, Wiper and Ford-Kenya party officials and volunteers in three regions had already been filled up with signatures.

The initial regions were western Kenya, Rift Valley and Nairobi.

Cord said the second batch of 2,000 books would be released to delegations from the coast, central and northeastern regions.

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/1-4m-referendum-signatures-collected-so-far--Cord-says/-/1064/2438584/-/le0tr8z/-/index.html

[TrueRV]

Omollo,
   what I dont get is how will these signatures get verified that they did not come from a few people and not the millions as stated. Which areas of Kenya signed and which ones did not

[RV Pundit]

Lots of hurdles to surmont..but a good start

[Omollo]

Omollo,
   what I dont get is how will these signatures get verified that they did not come from a few people and not the millions as stated. Which areas of Kenya signed and which ones did not

Its the IEBC that needs to verify the signatures. We did get wind of a TNA plan to contaminate the signatures and thus knock out the referendum. In principle one only needs 1 million signatures to support. In other words one person can sign up to 1 or ten issues at once. However to ward off Kibe Mungai tactics, we have gone for a higher number.

[Omollo]

Lots of hurdles to surmont..but a good start

This needs to succeed as a lesson to all those in authority. I had hoped Kosgey's son would be recalled from Parliament. Even Moi's son should be recalled.

[Mr Mansfield.]

The earlier the referendum the better for jubilee as a warm up to next election,this referendum seems unstoppable,

Without Prejudice.

[Georgesoros]

REferendums strenghten govt. no matter which side they come from. Its even more effective when used by people outside govt. who want their voices heard. If it passes then the govt. has to listen. If it fails then these groups has to contend. But they are more effective in pulling voters to polls at election time.

[RV Pundit]

My only problem is the cost. Last i checked our election were world most expensive bar the Afgan one.

REferendums strenghten govt. no matter which side they come from. Its even more effective when used by people outside govt. who want their voices heard. If it passes then the govt. has to listen. If it fails then these groups has to contend. But they are more effective in pulling voters to polls at election time.

[Omollo]

My only problem is the cost. Last i checked our election were world most expensive bar the Afgan one.

If this were a "Nyerere" like regime scrupulously devoted to frugality, I would buy that argument. As is that is far from the case. They just lost 15 billion to two thieving civil servants and there is no word from the Head of State.

I think the counties should get most of that money to reduce the wastage and theft at the National level. The referendum should havbe a question with yes plus a percentage. Those who simply say yes agree to 45% however there should be room for 50%, 55% up to 70%. The voter should feel free to choose.

[RV Pundit]

Right. The devolution thing should be decided in parliament. But mpigs might want to test the resolve of kenyans as far as devolution is concerned. The more devolution; the more stability; the more development;

If this were a "Nyerere" like regime scrupulously devoted to frugality, I would buy that argument. As is that is far from the case. They just lost 15 billion to two thieving civil servants and there is no word from the Head of State.

I think the counties should get most of that money to reduce the wastage and theft at the National level. The referendum should havbe a question with yes plus a percentage. Those who simply say yes agree to 45% however there should be room for 50%, 55% up to 70%. The voter should feel free to choose.

[Omollo]

TNA and by extension MKM and KIDOR have no intention of ceding power. 45% of the budget forces them to depend on governors for bribes. That is 47 of them. It removes a huge slush fund from their control. They won't agree.

Note that MKM is not so bothered by IEBC and other proposals. They can tame the next IEBC easily and can emasculate the next Land Commission. But taking away 45% of the cash from them is hard to swallow. That is their biggest ulcer.

[RV Pundit]

45% of revenues but they can always borrow until the country is bankrupt.

TNA and by extension MKM and KIDOR have no intention of ceding power. 45% of the budget forces them to depend on governors for bribes. That is 47 of them. It removes a huge slush fund from their control. They won't agree.

Note that MKM is not so bothered by IEBC and other proposals. They can tame the next IEBC easily and can emasculate the next Land Commission. But taking away 45% of the cash from them is hard to swallow. That is their biggest ulcer.

[Omollo]

I am sure you know how they steal: They need an excuse. They can go for LAPSETS and collect kickbacks from the contractors and financiers which they pass on to citizens. Those can be nipped inn the bud by simply establishing a debt ceiling and making sure it cannot be raised except by referendum.

But by denying them such avenues like roads construction etc, you have to admit they have suffered a blow. 45% will take away more functions from them and reduce avenues.

[Georgesoros]

There needs to be a significant reduction in the size of govt. Otherwise they will keep borrowing until its Greece x 20yrs.
Referendums shouldnt be expensive. When politicians bribe voters with blings thats when it becomes expensive. Agreed, the more the devolution the better a govt that is closer to the people.
BTW we dont need 400 constituencies.

[RV Pundit]

But can't judiciary,DPP and EACC step up and really do their job. We might end up with useless national gov if we were to fully distrust them. Counties like Bomet of Isaac are also reeling from corruption down there. And beside so of them have capacity issues. In short we need sober debate. Jubilee should defend their stance with facts, evidences and data....we need to hear of real issue based referendum...

I am sure you know how they steal: They need an excuse. They can go for LAPSETS and collect kickbacks from the contractors and financiers which they pass on to citizens. Those can be nipped inn the bud by simply establishing a debt ceiling and making sure it cannot be raised except by referendum.

But by denying them such avenues like roads construction etc, you have to admit they have suffered a blow. 45% will take away more functions from them and reduce avenues.

[Omollo]

Pundit

Corruption is a crime like any other. Just because it is happening in a far flung area like Mandera is no excuse not to bring the perpetrators to book. The failure to end corruption in Kenya has everything to do with the lethargy of the EACC, DPP and the Judiciary itself. I no longer buy in to executive interference as that is lost its persuasive powers and reverted to simple corruption where a judge may be promised or given rewards for certain actions. They are no longer threatened.

The question of capacity has to do with teething problems. The absorption capacity of the counties is such that it will grow slowly. It is no reason to deny them monies. What could be done is to build their capacity beyond simple things like awarding scholarships to all University admittees and ignore the fact that they will get HELB loans. The Vision 2030 thing should be integrated in Devolution and each county made conscious and brought alive to its role.

Some values that one can see as past like the MDGs are still good guidelines when planning and budgeting. It is the concentration on "traditional" development agenda as we have known it and the inability to look far that is the cause. For example how about making the elimination of pit latrines a county goal. It would mean WCs; Which would mean plenty of water; Which would mean mega water projects; Leading to a Sewage and Drainage system; Which would mean a garbage collection and recycling system; Which  would mean ......

You start somewhere and use every discouragement as an ingredient.

[RV Pundit]

I convinced counties and national gov should share monies nearly 50-50. So am converted. What we need is really the data. We might find out 50% of revenues already are committed..in teachers salaries, payments of interest on debts,pensions and on consolidated fund (salaries for mps,judges, commissions)...last i did my own calculation...it was more than 50%.

What we need is debate informed by facts. We need more proffesors and proffesionals writting for or against based on really analysed high quality data.

Jubilee are going to lose this for failing to explain themselves.

Pundit

Corruption is a crime like any other. Just because it is happening in a far flung area like Mandera is no excuse not to bring the perpetrators to book. The failure to end corruption in Kenya has everything to do with the lethargy of the EACC, DPP and the Judiciary itself. I no longer buy in to executive interference as that is lost its persuasive powers and reverted to simple corruption where a judge may be promised or given rewards for certain actions. They are no longer threatened.

The question of capacity has to do with teething problems. The absorption capacity of the counties is such that it will grow slowly. It is no reason to deny them monies. What could be done is to build their capacity beyond simple things like awarding scholarships to all University admittees and ignore the fact that they will get HELB loans. The Vision 2030 thing should be integrated in Devolution and each county made conscious and brought alive to its role.

Some values that one can see as past like the MDGs are still good guidelines when planning and budgeting. It is the concentration on "traditional" development agenda as we have known it and the inability to look far that is the cause. For example how about making the elimination of pit latrines a county goal. It would mean WCs; Which would mean plenty of water; Which would mean mega water projects; Leading to a Sewage and Drainage system; Which would mean a garbage collection and recycling system; Which  would mean ......

You start somewhere and use every discouragement as an ingredient.

[Omollo]

I convinced counties and national gov should share monies nearly 50-50. So am converted. What we need is really the data. We might find out 50% of revenues already are committed..in teachers salaries, payments of interest on debts,pensions and on consolidated fund (salaries for mps,judges, commissions)...last i did my own calculation...it was more than 50%.

What we need is debate informed by facts. We need more proffesors and proffesionals writting for or against based on really analysed high quality data.

Jubilee are going to lose this for failing to explain themselves.

Let me tell you what could earn me ostracization: Not even CORD is explaining and the reasoning is not based on sound facts. I shall explain:

Ideally Pundit, the money should be NEED based. Arbitrary percentages are wrong if you seriously think about it. The starting point should be the functions.

These should be budgeted and the projected cost attached. The 15 % guideline was probably based upon this. As more functions are devolved so should the funding. So that the National government could theoretically remain with 15% if that is what the costs of its services and functioning come to.

Right now it has boiled down to politics and nobody is explaining anything.

[RV Pundit]

We have to start somewhere..perhaps in nipate.

Let me tell you what could earn me ostracization: Not even CORD is explaining and the reasoning is not based on sound facts. I shall explain:

Ideally Pundit, the money should be NEED based. Arbitrary percentages are wrong if you seriously think about it. The starting point should be the functions.

These should be budgeted and the projected cost attached. The 15 % guideline was probably based upon this. As more functions are devolved so should the funding. So that the National government could theoretically remain with 15% if that is what the costs of its services and functioning come to.

Right now it has boiled down to politics and nobody is explaining anything.

[vooke]

Any idea how to measure a county NEEDs in advance?
Ideal but next to impossible in practice, not to mention it will be manipulated