Author Topic: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo  (Read 42744 times)

Offline gout

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2015, 11:14:21 AM »
see Mama Lucy Hospital which we are running down
http://china.aiddata.org/projects/1267

and ongoing KU Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital hospital .....
http://china.aiddata.org/projects/1290

MTRH

http://china.aiddata.org/projects/30544
 game changers in health sector which can't compare to seminars and 'capacity building' monies thrown all over by USAID, DFID... anyway nobody can take USAID interventions in HIV/AIDS management

Let us also briefly consider other things that really matter:

Do you know how many people, especially in poor countries and especially in Africa, die or are affected annually by TB, malaria and HIV/AIDS?  Malaria alone kills at least 0.5 million per year.   Most of those (about 90%) are in Africa and most are children under 5.

So who contributes to  the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria?   

It is the usual suspects, led, as usual, by the USA.    Compare some contributions to the fund for the years 2012-2015:

USA - $1.4 billion per year
Bill Gates - $200 million per year
China - $5 million per year

Another one that is interesting is "global emergency humanitarian assistance" given.   Looking at the figures for 2012-2013, and they are typical:

USA- $4.5 billion
China - $4 million

a list of some of grants and aid from china to kenya ... though some look shady like this one with Kenya International Hospital and Sinopharm
http://china.aiddata.org/projects?country_name=Kenya&is_stage_one=Is+not+Stage+One&page=4
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2015, 12:19:33 PM »
The numbers speaks for themselves...

And before we do that...forget about US citizen or companies like Bill & Melinda...we are talking GOV of US and CHINA.

1) LOANS

Last year alone..China lent Kenya 450B kshs in one deal alone (SGR)...US has lent to Kenya..ZERO. IMF/WB are not US but global institutions.

China 450B. US 0 Billion (there was talk of Obama energy thing...but so far apart from Kinagop wind thing i am not sure they're processed any here)

2) Grants

US gov claims to grant our NGOS (and maybe small % to our gov) about 500-700M (roughly 50bshs) annually. Most of it money flushed down the NGOS toilets. What has stopped HIV-AIDS is less the global fund but more the affordability of  ARV drugs thanks to generics manufactured in India and China.

Quick google search shows me China granted kenya 100M USD for CCTV here, 20M USD for elephants poaching there, hospital there, a road there etc etc.

3) Trade. China beats US down when it come to trade...apart from few Boeing we buy once in a while and the 17B worth of EPZ AGOA thing..that is all the trade we do with US.


What is the impact of China in 2014--we are rolling a brand new modern railway line which will slice transport time and cost-

What is the impact of US in 2014---money flushed down NGOS doing all sort of dubious things with zero or negative impact.

And the reason is obvious- US has spent 50B in kenya in thousands little projects all over while China has committed 450B and implemented the project.

Pundit:

That's just more vague hand-waving because that is what you want to believe.   China has done these great things!  And whatever the USA and anyone else has done is just stuff down the toilet!  Di di di da da blah!  Surely, you can do a bit better. 

Let's do concrete.    And instead of lumping Africa together, as if Angola's billions somehow help, Chad or whatever, let's do one country at a time.   

On a Kenyan forum, I propose that we start with Kenya.   Here's a repeat from above:

You are delighted that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" or whatever.    Now go take a look at how much China has given Kenya in grants!  Yes, please, having told us about the trillion shillings of loans, we now wait to hear about the grants.    How many shillings there? Weka namba hapa hapa.

Tell us exactly what great things China is doing for Kenya, and in concrete terms, and lets us compare.  Then we can do Uganda, Chad, Botswana, etc.  One country at a time.   

But please, concrete objective numbers, not ati these people were surveyed and so on. 

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China global role in IMF/UN/WB and such bodies is constrained by US and the likes insistence of some 1940s formulae or shareholding..

Total nonsense.  Mara China is a great contributor, then its "constrained".   Let's take them one at a time.  Explain to me why almost 25% of the UN's budget is covered by the USA and exactly what "constrains" China from paying more. 

I take it you aren't aware of China's tricks to avoid paying its share (relative to the its GDP).   China has had a nice counter to any efforts to get it to pay more: it claimed that it had too many poor people itself!    I won't do all of your homework for you, but this should give you a good start:

"A population of 150 million in China lives under the UN-set poverty line. Chinese representatives to the UN appealed that the country's capacity to pay should be evaluated in an objective and reasonable way and should not be separated from the nation's conditions and the overall international economic environment."

http://www.ciis.org.cn/english/2013-01/16/content_5674643.htm

I refer you to that start because that's their own propaganda right there.  Same con they run all over the place while some Africans are wetting themselves over the Great Chinese that's supposedly going to save them.


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2015, 06:00:52 PM »
Now you are trying a bit harder.  But it's still pretty lame.

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And before we do that...forget about US citizen or companies like Bill & Melinda...we are talking GOV of US and CHINA.

I did put up the figures for the "GOV of US".  My point about putting up the Gates figure was to highlight what a single individual is doing for the health of Africans in comparison with what your great China is doing.

The numbers speaks for themselves...

1) LOANS
Last year alone..China lent Kenya 450B kshs in one deal alone (SGR)...US has lent to Kenya..ZERO.

I don't see your logic in that one or why it upsets you.  Did Kenya try to borrow money in the USA and turned down?   It seems absurd that Kenya decides to borrow money from elsewhere and then you say complain that the USA is not lending Kenya money. Is the USA supposed to beat up Kenya and make it take loans from there?

And why should the USA be concerned with loans to Kenya when it prefers to give huge grants?

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2) Grants

US gov claims to grant our NGOS (and maybe small % to our gov) about 500-700M (roughly 50bshs) annually. Most of it money flushed down the NGOS toilets. What has stopped HIV-AIDS is less the global fund but more the affordability of  ARV drugs thanks to generics manufactured in India and China.

And where do you think the money that pays for Kenya to get those cheap ARVs come from?  Ever heard of USAID?

I have looked at what an organization like USAID says its money achieves in Kenya.   I suggest you too do the same?

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Quick google search shows me China granted kenya 100M USD for CCTV here, 20M USD for elephants poaching there, hospital there, a road there etc etc.

I did the same quick search, and I can easily see why you continue to get excited over nothing.   This is what I found
 
"VENTURES AFRICA- To minimise terrorism attacks in the country, China has offered Kenya a $100 million (Sh8.5 billion) loan to install Closed-Circuit Television Cameras (CCTV) in major towns and cities."

http://www.ventures-africa.com/2012/05/china-grants-kenya-100million-for-cctv-surveillance/

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20M USD for elephants poaching there, hospital there, a road there etc etc.

He, he, he ... that's it?  What happened to

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On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money.

Pending further information from you, we'll take you figures for grants to be $20 million.  You can easily find what other countries have given in grants.  I have given you the figures for just the USA.

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3) Trade. China beats US down when it come to trade...apart from few Boeing we buy once in a while and the 17B worth of EPZ AGOA thing..that is all the trade we do with US.

As I said, there is little point in bragging about trade volume when it is heavily one-sided for most African countries and especially those that are not delivering natural resources.  In the case of Kenya, you should be praising Afghanistan, which, although a wreck of  country imports more from Kenya than China does.

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What is the impact of China in 2014--we are rolling a brand new modern railway line which will slice transport time and cost-

Tell us the impact of that one when it is done.   We have seen Chinese build great railways before (e.g. to the south of Kenya) and then?

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What is the impact of US in 2014---money flushed down NGOS doing all sort of dubious things with zero or negative impact.

And the reason is obvious- US has spent 50B in kenya in thousands little projects all over while China has committed 450B and implemented the project.

First of all, the USA puts well over Sh. 50B per year into Kenya.  Per year.

I see you are in the group that thinks that things are more important than people and "big project" matter more than what you call "little projects".  Africans need to get away from that sort of mentality.

Africans die like flies everyday from numerous diseases and starvation, many of them people who would otherwise contribute to (or grow up to contribute to) their countries.  It seems to me that we should focus on such things and be grateful when we get help from others to do so.  A railway that is yet to be built and a small road that people call a superhighway won't do those.   See more below on food.

Looking at your list of the "great things" that China has supposedly done in Kenya, I have to say that I am singularly unimpressed.

And that includes the loans to build those hospitals.

And then there's our wildlife ...

If you want to talk about serious aid (food, technical and otherwise), you should also look at other Asian countries, particularly Japan.   Whereas people are excited about a $4 billion loan from China, there is nothing from the Chinese that would compare with this, for example:

"Japan gave Kenya a $7.7-billion grant on Monday to buy food in response to an appeal by the east African country's president."

http://mg.co.za/article/2009-08-24-japan-gives-kenya-77bn-for-food-aid

"Donor response to food shortage in the country has been slow and lukewarm. Only last week, Japan gave Kenya $7.7 billion grant to address food shortages"

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/1144022491/ministries-in-budget-cuts-to-fund-emergency-kitty

Yep, $7.7 billion, grant.  Just like that.  In one year. How much total has China given Kenya (grants, loans, whatever) in the last 10 years. 

And you can also look at other aid from Japan (loans and grants), the projects they do (geothermal, ports).

I suppose you will say that un-built railways and a little highway are better than food, but that kind of Japanese grant aid is what  I would get excited about.  Kenyans got to eat and live a bit longer.   
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 07:02:22 PM by MOON Ki »
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2015, 07:33:23 PM »
There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs.

Actually there is some doubt.    I did a few sums today, and I didn't get the 1 trillion.   Can you point me to the source of the data?
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Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2015, 09:24:12 AM »
In 10yrs..chinese have done what britons and other europeans have been unable to do in centuries.

Interesting. But let us try and do an objective comparison. Let us start with Kenya.  What are the great things the Chinese have done there?

What I find intriguing is how easily Africans have bought into the myth that China is a friend with no imperialistic or hegemonic ambitions. After all --Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping have said so. The mantra: We can help you replicate our model of growth sans (human) development.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2015, 09:26:44 AM »
What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off. The same can be said of China's funded ByPasses in Nairobi. You could say about the French projects like Ndakaini-Nairobi. JICA funded Sondu Miiru and several such projects. Italian funded Turkwel. ADB funded Thika road.

China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.

What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.

Western AID has SIMPLY failed to work. You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.

Invest in Africa's Infrastructure and Pay better for African goods and services like the Chinese are doing...and you have win-win situation. 

US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar. China is giving the beggar a chance to live a dignified life by showing him how they did it.

I see you are in the group that thinks that things are more important than people and "big project" matter more than what you call "little projects".  Africans need to get away from that sort of mentality.
 

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2015, 09:32:28 AM »
When China turns out an enemy..i bet we will have enough time to ran. The citizens and gov in most of Africa are pro-china now because we have seen what they've done in few years. Despite the propaganda from the west....we know Obama and Europeans are similarly running to China..for loans and trade.

In fact i do not know what we are talking about when US and EU simply borrow from China...and throws a few crumbs our way..and we are suppose to celebrate dealing with big daddy..not directly with Chinese.

What I find intriguing is how easily Africans have bought into the myth that China is a friend with no imperialistic or hegemonic ambitions. After all --Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping have said so. The mantra: We can help you replicate our model of growth sans (human) development.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 10:41:55 AM »
What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off.

As I have tried to point out, Africans need to focus first on people rather than things ... stop dying like flies from starvation and numerous diseases.   Human capital is a huge step to development, and you should look at the Asian countries that first worked on feeding themselves.  What is the point of having a stadium or a long railway line and then going off to beg others for food or keep dying from simple things like the lack of clean drinking water?   Have you looked at the health statistics of Kenya recently?

Of course, USAID  is not about great pieces of steel and concrete.  But I'd rather have Kenyans standing up and alive rather than dead with infrastructure standing up.   

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China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.

First, I am awaiting your answer on the "1 trillion shillings" you are so happy that China has lent Kenya "in the last few years".  I can't find the figures you rely on for that.

Second, where does this "12 billion dollars" from now?

Third, when is it supposed to reached Malaba?   I am not aware of any concrete plans past Nairobi, but perhaps you will share those with us.

Fourth, your "100 years" projection is very amusing, considering that nobody seems to be able to maintain anything.   You can look at Kenya itself, move to Tanzania where China has been building "great railways" since who-knows-when ... when it comes to maintenance, history is not on your "100 years" prediction. 

Oh, I should also point out that all this excitement is over a railway line that still does not exist.

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What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
 

Good question. I will give you a day to do your homework.  If you still need answers after that, ask again.   Your hint is to start looking at things like food, health, and so on.

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You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...

A "lady from Zambia" said that.   Well, then, we must take it to the bank right away!

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Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.

Sadly, the hard fact is  that most of Africa is indeed a basket case; it's not a particularly happy fact, or one that is easily admitted, but there it is.  The endless begging supports that.   I gave you an example of Kenya desperately begging for food and Japan handing over $7.7 billion dollars (grant) just like that.   

Condoms, mosquito nets, ... even simple clean drinking water ... the basket-case continues because people get very excited over railway lines and small "superhighways" and do not focus on basics like food and health.   Attitudes need to change over that.

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US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar.

That could be because Africa continually behaves like a street beggar.    How much lower can it get to beg for food?   And not once or twice; it's never-ending!    As a general rule, people who keep begging for this and that, especially basic things like food, do get treated as beggars!  If African countries do not want to get treated like beggars, then there is an obvious path: (a) take care of your own shit; (b) actually stop begging. 

Look, if you want to believe that China is going to save Kenya and Africa---and you seem very determined to do so---then go for it.  But, as I noted above, when actually looks at the "great things"---e.g. your list of Chinese Great Things in Kenya---it doesn't quite add up.  And that's the case for quite a few African countries.

Me, myself, ... I can't think of a more basic human need than food.   So I would want Kenya (and others) to first get such things right and avoid relying on endless begging.   

Next, I'd focus on other not-very-glamorous things: (a) do you know the real cost, in a place like Kenya, of  not having just clean drinking water for most of the population?; (b) do you know the actual cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having proper places for people to shit?; (c) ... And by cost I actually mean quantifiable money.

I prefer to see an Africa that is focused, first, on the basics: food, health, housing, and on.
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 10:53:10 AM »
When China turns out an enemy..i bet we will have enough time to ran. The citizens and gov in most of Africa are pro-china now because we have seen what they've done in few years.

This is the mentality we need to get away from: "I see it with my own eyes!".  I see the road and the stadium, but I do not see the improvement in the quality of life or an extension to the length of life.   

Africa needs to start focusing on people.  Leaders to:

(a) provide them with the basics, at least to the extent of not having to continually beg for things like food;

(b) stop robbing them at every turn;

(c) put an end to all the mayhem---killing, raping, civil wars, etc.

...

(z) above all, Africans to free themselves of the notion that someone else (China today) will save them.

P.S.  There is plenty of "amusing" stuff like this:

http://www.africanglobe.net/business/chinese-hurting-african-economies/
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 11:05:35 AM »
Invest in Africa's Infrastructure and Pay better for African goods and services like the Chinese are doing...and you have win-win situation.

And what exactly is the "better pay"?   When the USA and Saudi Arabia drive down oil prices, do you believe that the Chinese will pay anything better than the going market-rate?

Have you seen how a place like Uganda is ready to bend over and get it in the ****?   A nice little con of them borrowing Chinese money against future oil sales.    It reminds me of some Kenyans who gave the colonial British thousands of acres of productive land in return for ... [See Form II History].   But folks all over are lapping up this sort of thing!

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What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off.

As I have tried to point out, Africans need to focus first on people rather than things ... stop dying like flies from starvation and numerous diseases.   Human capital is a huge step to development, and you should look at the Asian countries that first worked on feeding themselves.  What is the point of having a stadium or a long railway line and then going off to beg others for food or keep dying from simple things like the lack of clean drinking water?   Have you looked at the health statistics of Kenya recently?

Of course, USAID  is not about great pieces of steel and concrete.  But I'd rather have Kenyans standing up and alive rather than dead with infrastructure standing up.   

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China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.

First, I am awaiting your answer on the "1 trillion shillings" you are so happy that China has lent Kenya "in the last few years".  I can't find the figures you rely on for that.

Second, where does this "12 billion dollars" from now?

(Er, em, ...  perhaps you should stay away from numbers or anything conrete; stick to generic handwaving----the west has failed, China has saved sort of thing.)

Third, when is it supposed to reached Malaba?   I am not aware of any concrete plans past Nairobi, but perhaps you will share those with us.

Fourth, your "100 years" projection is very amusing, considering that nobody seems to be able to maintain anything.   You can look at Kenya itself, move to Tanzania where China has been building "great railways" since who-knows-when ... but when it comes to maintenance, history is not on your "100 years" prediction. 

Human development: Before I hear about what the SGR will do for 100 years, I'd rather hear about how Kenya will feed itself for 100 years.   And other basics for a decent human life ... Anybody there working on those?

Oh, I should also point out that all this excitement is over a railway line that still does not exist.

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What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
 

Good question. I will give you a day to do your homework.  If you still need answers after that, ask again.   Your hint is to start looking at things like food, health, and so on.

Quote
You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...

A "lady from Zambia" said that.   Well, then, we must take it to the bank right away!

Quote
Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.

Sadly, the hard fact is  that most of Africa is indeed a basket case; it's not a particularly happy fact, or one that is easily admitted, but there it is.  The endless begging supports that.   I gave you an example of Kenya desperately begging for food and Japan handing over $7.7 billion dollars (grant) just like that.   

Condoms, mosquito nets, ... even simple clean drinking water ... the basket-case continues because people get very excited over railway lines and small "superhighways" and do not focus on basics like food and health.   Attitudes need to change over that.

Quote
US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar.

That could be because Africa continually behaves like a street beggar.   Always begging!    How much lower can it get to beg for food?   And not once or twice; it's never-ending!   Even from Kenya, where you assure us that the Chinese are performing Great & Glorious deeds!  (Must be hard to eat a future railway  :D )

 As a general rule, people who keep begging for this and that, especially basic things like food, do get treated as beggars!  If African countries do not want to get treated like beggars, then there is an obvious path: (a) take care of your own shit; (b) actually stop begging. 

Look, if you want to believe that China is going to save Kenya and Africa---and you seem very determined to do so---then go for it.  But, as I noted above, when actually looks at the "great things"---e.g. your list of Chinese Great Things in Kenya---it doesn't quite add up.  And that's the case for quite a few African countries.

Me, myself, ... I can't think of a more basic human need than food.   So I would want Kenya (and others) to first get such things right and avoid relying on endless begging.   

Next, I'd focus on other not-very-glamorous things: (a) do you know the real cost, in a place like Kenya, of  not having just clean drinking water for most of the population?; (b) do you know the actual cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having proper places for people to shit?; (c) ... And by cost I actually mean quantifiable money.

I prefer to see an Africa that is focused, first, on the basics: food, health, housing, and on.  Learn something from the people who are at the receiving end of perpetual "please help"!

Africa has to start taking human development much more seriously.  Until that happens, the place  will remain a perpetual basket case of beggars---shiny new railway and stadium, from borrowed money, but can't even feed themselves.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2015, 07:33:40 AM »
Mooki,

You're given to splitting hairs.

I like to summarize my main points.

 For figures SGR (450) and Bypasses in Nairobi(Southern,Eastern,Northern,Western..each 10B) alone is worth (450+50) is 500B. Your challenge given you have plentiful time and resources is to find out what else China has been doing in transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports for last 10yrs..annnually China lends kenya 50-100B (now i think largest bilateral lender having overtaken Japan).

SGR is designed to go all way to Kigali. Phase 1 is what is already funded and under construction. Phase 2 is to Malaba/Kampala. Uganda and Kenya are in talks on that. Mombasa-Malaba will cost 1.2trillion..or 12bUSD (roughly).

Your yankee friends cannot fund that. Well unless they were funding Europeans in a Marshall Plan. Chinese are going to give us 12B USD in few yrs...i bet more than US has given kenya in 50yrs

Now lets go to why Western Aid has NOT worked in Africa or Kenya for last 50yrs despite all the money flushed down the NGOS and why 10 yrs after China become a donor...everyone seem excited.

It simple. Approach. USAID focus on the short term (give the fish) China focus on long term (teach them how to fish). If USAID see a problem in food security..they will invite 100 NGOS with funding lasting 1-3yrs doing all sort of funny things. The same with WatSan...some NGO to dig 10 boreholes here...another to transport water in Camels...another to distribute a gadget that clean dirty water..another to dig 1,000 toilets all over kenya. If we have transport problem in main corridor..they will give some NGO trademark...contract to hold conference along the north corrindor..imploring the gov to reduce road blocks...some money to got Drivers and Manamba touts to buy them condoms in Mlolongo stop over..couple of dollars to Shipper councils..to organize capacity building.

You can replace USAID with DFID(or any othe Western Aid Agency). The impact is the same. It short lived,marginal and mostly negative--read dependency sydrome. I should know having monitored and evaluated hundreds of such projects all over Africa, Asia and Latina America.

What will china do. It will help gov do what China has done. We have food security problem..how about you invest massive amounts of money in irrigation scheme..build a fertilizer factory..the aim to ensure we have in few yrs plentiful and cheap food. How about you build big shoe factory to turn around the fortunes of nomads. When it comes to Water...China will invest in massive water supply systems.. a huge dam like the one they are building in Ethiopia and Sudan...you have problem with transport...expand the roads..modernize the railway..like SGR they have done in Kenya,Ethiopia and Nigera....all these in long term will make Africa grow sustainably. The impact of Chinese projects are all there to be seen. There is even no need to measure or evaluate. It manifesting in glowing tribute that ordinary kenyans and leaders have showered the chinese with.

Tazara and other projects by previous communist China is really desperation from your end..We are talking new China. The China that has been doing amazing things in all countries in Africa...those growing very fast..like Ethiopia...happens to be deeply in bed with Chinese.

So our gov is corrupt...USAID will deal with NGOS..China will find a way to work with Gov[ by insisting all contracts are handled directly from Beijing--from paying contractors to release of funds]..coz at end of the day nobody has the scale the gov has.

In short what China has done in 10yrs....after emerging from poverty...is simply breathtaking.

It no wonder africa people and their gov are bending over for Chinese tarimbo.



Invest in Africa's Infrastructure and Pay better for African goods and services like the Chinese are doing...and you have win-win situation.

And what exactly is the "better pay"?   When the USA and Saudi Arabia drive down oil prices, do you believe that the Chinese will pay anything better than the going market-rate?

Have you seen how a place like Uganda is ready to bend over and get it in the ****?   A nice little con of them borrowing Chinese money against future oil sales.    It reminds me of some Kenyans who gave the colonial British thousands of acres of productive land in return for ... [See Form II History].   But folks all over are lapping up this sort of thing!

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What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off.

As I have tried to point out, Africans need to focus first on people rather than things ... stop dying like flies from starvation and numerous diseases.   Human capital is a huge step to development, and you should look at the Asian countries that first worked on feeding themselves.  What is the point of having a stadium or a long railway line and then going off to beg others for food or keep dying from simple things like the lack of clean drinking water?   Have you looked at the health statistics of Kenya recently?

Of course, USAID  is not about great pieces of steel and concrete.  But I'd rather have Kenyans standing up and alive rather than dead with infrastructure standing up.   

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China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.

First, I am awaiting your answer on the "1 trillion shillings" you are so happy that China has lent Kenya "in the last few years".  I can't find the figures you rely on for that.

Second, where does this "12 billion dollars" from now?

(Er, em, ...  perhaps you should stay away from numbers or anything conrete; stick to generic handwaving----the west has failed, China has saved sort of thing.)

Third, when is it supposed to reached Malaba?   I am not aware of any concrete plans past Nairobi, but perhaps you will share those with us.

Fourth, your "100 years" projection is very amusing, considering that nobody seems to be able to maintain anything.   You can look at Kenya itself, move to Tanzania where China has been building "great railways" since who-knows-when ... but when it comes to maintenance, history is not on your "100 years" prediction. 

Human development: Before I hear about what the SGR will do for 100 years, I'd rather hear about how Kenya will feed itself for 100 years.   And other basics for a decent human life ... Anybody there working on those?

Oh, I should also point out that all this excitement is over a railway line that still does not exist.

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What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
 

Good question. I will give you a day to do your homework.  If you still need answers after that, ask again.   Your hint is to start looking at things like food, health, and so on.

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You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...

A "lady from Zambia" said that.   Well, then, we must take it to the bank right away!

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Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.

Sadly, the hard fact is  that most of Africa is indeed a basket case; it's not a particularly happy fact, or one that is easily admitted, but there it is.  The endless begging supports that.   I gave you an example of Kenya desperately begging for food and Japan handing over $7.7 billion dollars (grant) just like that.   

Condoms, mosquito nets, ... even simple clean drinking water ... the basket-case continues because people get very excited over railway lines and small "superhighways" and do not focus on basics like food and health.   Attitudes need to change over that.

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US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar.

That could be because Africa continually behaves like a street beggar.   Always begging!    How much lower can it get to beg for food?   And not once or twice; it's never-ending!   Even from Kenya, where you assure us that the Chinese are performing Great & Glorious deeds!  (Must be hard to eat a future railway  :D )

 As a general rule, people who keep begging for this and that, especially basic things like food, do get treated as beggars!  If African countries do not want to get treated like beggars, then there is an obvious path: (a) take care of your own shit; (b) actually stop begging. 

Look, if you want to believe that China is going to save Kenya and Africa---and you seem very determined to do so---then go for it.  But, as I noted above, when actually looks at the "great things"---e.g. your list of Chinese Great Things in Kenya---it doesn't quite add up.  And that's the case for quite a few African countries.

Me, myself, ... I can't think of a more basic human need than food.   So I would want Kenya (and others) to first get such things right and avoid relying on endless begging.   

Next, I'd focus on other not-very-glamorous things: (a) do you know the real cost, in a place like Kenya, of  not having just clean drinking water for most of the population?; (b) do you know the actual cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having proper places for people to shit?; (c) ... And by cost I actually mean quantifiable money.

I prefer to see an Africa that is focused, first, on the basics: food, health, housing, and on.  Learn something from the people who are at the receiving end of perpetual "please help"!

Africa has to start taking human development much more seriously.  Until that happens, the place  will remain a perpetual basket case of beggars---shiny new railway and stadium, from borrowed money, but can't even feed themselves.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2015, 10:23:11 AM »
Here we have a circuitous debate which reveals the following: Beijing is flexing her muscles in Africa and, in turn, Africans are becoming heavily indebted to Beijing. On the SGR project, Kenya funded a mere 10% (correct me if am wrong), and Exim Bank of China financed the balance through two separate loans to be repaid by the GoK from future rail revenues; thus it is conceivable that Beijing will be running the SGR as a concession.

Meanwhile, last week, Kenya turned to the Bretton Woods institutions and received the Fund's imprimatur sealing a $504.3m Stand-Buy Agreement and a smaller $194m Stand-By Credit Facility. Of note upon reading a snippet of the deal is the following: [the] new precautionary financing arrangements would provide a policy anchor for continued macroeconomic and institutional reforms...[and] durable poverty reduction. To achieve the latter, we are likely to see more cleaning up of Kibera, Mathare and other slums in a quest to appease the Fund and The Bank. Wazees in hamlets, townships and villages all across Kenya will see a rise in their monthly allowances from Nairobi.

The proof is in the IMF Conditionality.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2015, 12:17:57 PM »
Why do folks take WB or IMF or UN to be part of Western AID/Gov. Those are global mulitateral insitutions where kenya and 200 other countries have shareholding. The US & EU does misuse them for political reasons..but without strong arm [like vetos and refusal to increase WB/IMF capital]..their influence at those institutions would be at par with other countries.

Thankfully China has not only rolled out their own banks but have worked with BRICS to develop banks that can respond to 21st century development issues...

Banks not afraid to lent 10B dollars to poor basket case African country.

Here we have a circuitous debate which reveals the following: Beijing is flexing her muscles in Africa and, in turn, Africans are becoming heavily indebted to Beijing. On the SGR project, Kenya funded a mere 10% (correct me if am wrong), and Exim Bank of China financed the balance through two separate loans to be repaid by the GoK from future rail revenues; thus it is conceivable that Beijing will be running the SGR as a concession.

Meanwhile, last week, Kenya turned to the Bretton Woods institutions and received the Fund's imprimatur sealing a $504.3m Stand-Buy Agreement and a smaller $194m Stand-By Credit Facility. Of note upon reading a snippet of the deal is the following: [the] new precautionary financing arrangements would provide a policy anchor for continued macroeconomic and institutional reforms...[and] durable poverty reduction. To achieve the latter, we are likely to see more cleaning up of Kibera, Mathare and other slums in a quest to appease the Fund and The Bank. Wazees in hamlets, townships and villages all across Kenya will see a rise in their monthly allowances from Nairobi.

The proof is in the IMF Conditionality.


Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2015, 12:20:46 PM »
If the government allowed the private sector to invest in SGR and energy,that would have saved kenyans over 500BN HOWEVER the only reason politicians who control gov want to invest in these mega-projects is to make quick easy money while kenyans sleep hungry in dirty,disease and crime infested slums,

Chinese just want their money to earn interest,we are paying them more than they are earning in USA European and Japanese bonds,the rest is none of their business,

Without Prejudice.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2015, 05:18:24 PM »
For figures SGR (450) and Bypasses in Nairobi(Southern,Eastern,Northern,Western..each 10B) alone is worth (450+50) is 500B. Your challenge given you have plentiful time and resources is to find out what else China has been doing in transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports for last 10yrs..annnually China lends kenya 50-100B (now i think largest bilateral lender having overtaken Japan).

You stated that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" in the "last few years".   I actually went off and did the sums and not find that. And yes, I looked at  your "transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports".  One more time: what is the exact source of your figures?

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Your yankee friends cannot fund that.

Cannot?  What is the concrete basis of such a statement. 

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Chinese are going to give us 12B USD in few yrs...

I have not seen any agreement that would confirm that.   What is the basis of your claim? By the way, they will not give Kenya anything.  If the current SGR is anything to go by, they will lend Kenya the money and insist that Kenya take out costly insurance to cover the loan.    You really ought to get away from this idea that you are being given anything.

Still, I note the "improvement", in that you have changed from:

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China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars

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i bet more than US has given kenya in 50yrs

Don't just bet; go off and do the sums, and actually reach a conclusion.   And in the case of the US, there has been real giving (i.e. grants).

Quote
Now lets go to why Western Aid has NOT worked in Africa or Kenya for last 50yrs despite all the money flushed down the NGOS and why 10 yrs after China become a donor...everyone seem excited.

It is very easy to simply has not worked and the West has "failed" without providing a concrete basis for such a statement.   The statements are also based on very curious reasoning.    If the West has poured money into Africa and it has been wasted as you claim, is it the West that has failed?   You might want to look at the Africans.

Quote
It simple. Approach. USAID focus on the short term (give the fish) China focus on long term (teach them how to fish).
Quote
If USAID see a problem in food security..they will invite 100 NGOS with funding lasting 1-3yrs doing all sort of funny things. The same with WatSan...some NGO to dig 10 boreholes here...another to transport water in Camels...another to distribute a gadget that clean dirty water..another to dig 1,000 toilets all over kenya. If we have transport problem in main corridor..they will give some NGO trademark...contract to hold conference along the north corrindor..imploring the gov to reduce road blocks...some money to got Drivers and Manamba touts to buy them condoms in Mlolongo stop over..couple of dollars to Shipper councils..to organize capacity building.

And what exactly is China's contribution to such things in Kenya?

Quote
What will china do. It will help gov do what China has done.

I not asking about China might/will do, especially because I have to concrete basis to determine what it might/will do.   I am asking about what it has actually done.   

Quote
We have food security problem..how about you invest massive amounts of money in irrigation scheme..build a fertilizer factory..the aim to ensure we have in few yrs plentiful and cheap food. How about you build big shoe factory to turn around the fortunes of nomads. When it comes to Water...China will invest in massive water supply systems..
   

China will, China will, China.  When will they? 

Kenyans still routinely beg for food.  Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems? 

Where are all those factories in Kenya?  Last I heard, your were bragging about the  trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.

Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water.   Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?   

Quote
a huge dam like the one they are building in Ethiopia and Sudan...you have problem with transport...expand the roads..modernize the railway..like SGR they have done in Kenya,Ethiopia and Nigera....

"SGR they have done in Kenya"?   I haven't seen it.   Anyway, as I pointed out, go look at the railways the Chinese build in places like Tanzania and so on?  Kenya?  We know what Kenya does with its railways.

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The impact of Chinese projects are all there to be seen. There is even no need to measure or evaluate.

When it comes to generic hand-waving, you are at your best.  Ati all there to be seen, no need to measure!   I have already asked you about the "great things" that China has done in Kenya.   You gave a list.   A pathetic one.   So we won't repeat that exercise?

I have also pointed out to you the dangers of "It is there!  I can see it with my own eyes!".   It is the mentality that leads people to focus on things like stadiums and shiny railways while  diarrhea keeps killing their children and they have to regularly beg for food in order to stay alive. 

Quote
Tazara and other projects by previous communist China is really desperation from your end..We are talking new China.

Again, very curious logic, and you miss the point.   Whether  the railway was build by "Communist China" or "new China" is completely irrelevant.  The main point is that it was built, and we know what happened after that.

Quote
The China that has been doing amazing things in all countries in Africa...

Yes, I saw your list of "amazing things" in Kenya  :D

Here's a thought that amused me this morning, as I reflected on these criticisms that the West has failed in Africa:   the criticism are done by people who went to educational systems started by the West, used Western-developed infrastructure and facilities, use a Western language, adhere to a religion that came from the West, etc.,etc. etc.  And to round it all off, convey their criticisms using technology invented by the West.

Anyway, one more time:

(1) It is not the West's responsibility to take care of Africa.   So it is absurd to keep saying that they have failed in Africa.

(2) If whatever money the West has put into Africa has gone to waste---and that is yet to be established objectively---then it is not the West that has failed; it is the recipients.

(3) Africans---at least those like you who seem to think so---need to give up this idea that either the West or the East will save them.   They need to start doing for themselves, and a good place to start would be to feed themselves instead of having to rely on perpetual begging.

(4) Africa needs to first focus on human development---food, health, ...basics.  One can eat or drink a stadium or a railway.


« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 06:20:16 PM by MOON Ki »
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2015, 05:44:39 PM »
Chinese just want their money to earn interest,we are paying them more than they are earning in USA European and Japanese bonds,the rest is none of their business,

And it's not just the interest.   The insurance on the Exim loan is 6.9% of the loan!   Talk about getting free money from Kenyans!   But Pundit will still tell you that China is giving, giving, giving.
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2015, 06:06:19 PM »
More hair splitting.

Perhaps we can flip this. Tell us one AID project by any western partners you're really proud of. I can barely count five in my one hand despite 50yrs of assistance to Africa.

Let us not waste time with what we all agree...that Africa is basket case beggar who is incredibly corrupt and irresponsible..this is supported by overwhelming evidence..am not prepared to argue about.

The same way you shouldn't waste any minute arguing about FAILED DEAD western AID project.

The Chinese are breathe of fresh air..because their model actually works...EU and rest have been funding roads and railways...for donkeys years....but there is barely any road. China model (including insurance), the insistence that money never really leaves China banks except to contractor and their insistence of their own contractors..is what WORKS. At end of the day we want good roads, good railways, word class ports, energy generations projects,power lines,irrigation sizes, dams , security cameras, police cars and such kind of development that chinese are handing us..on TIME and COST.

Does the Yankees and europeans really do not know what works in Africa. Mm...they did a marshall plan for Europe...China is doing a marshall plan for Africa...maybe it racism.

Now you have this wierd notion of what development really is. For you development is what handing a beggar food..not taking the beggar out of the street. I am not sure what development philosophy this belongs to..it look to me like emergency band aid...that US and EU have been conducting in Africa for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Development. Sustainable Development. Human development. Just look at what Chinese are doing.That railway line will reduce travel cost and time..and multiplier effect on everything including the price of USAID condom and yellow maize...will be felt for generations to come..if we do not screw it up.


For figures SGR (450) and Bypasses in Nairobi(Southern,Eastern,Northern,Western..each 10B) alone is worth (450+50) is 500B. Your challenge given you have plentiful time and resources is to find out what else China has been doing in transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports for last 10yrs..annnually China lends kenya 50-100B (now i think largest bilateral lender having overtaken Japan).

You stated that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" in the "last few years".   I actually went off and did the sums and not find that. And yes, I looked at  your "transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports".  One more time: what is the exact source of your figures?

Quote
Your yankee friends cannot fund that.

Cannot?  What is the concrete basis of such a statement. 

Quote
Chinese are going to give us 12B USD in few yrs...

I have not seen any agreement that would confirm that.   What is the basis of your claim? By the way, they will not give Kenya anything.  If the current SGR is anything to go by, they will lend Kenya the money and insist that Kenya take out costly insurance to cover the loan.    You really ought to get away from this idea that you are being given anything.

Still, I note the "improvement", in that you have changed from:

Quote
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars

Quote
i bet more than US has given kenya in 50yrs

Don't just bet; go off and do the sums, and actually reach a conclusion.   And in the case of the US, there has been real giving (i.e. grants).

Quote
Now lets go to why Western Aid has NOT worked in Africa or Kenya for last 50yrs despite all the money flushed down the NGOS and why 10 yrs after China become a donor...everyone seem excited.

It is very easy to simply has not worked and the West has "failed" without providing a concrete basis for such a statement.   The statements are also based on very curious reasoning.    If the West has poured money into Africa and it has been wasted as you claim, is it the West that has failed?   You might want to look at the Africans.

Quote
It simple. Approach. USAID focus on the short term (give the fish) China focus on long term (teach them how to fish).
Quote
If USAID see a problem in food security..they will invite 100 NGOS with funding lasting 1-3yrs doing all sort of funny things. The same with WatSan...some NGO to dig 10 boreholes here...another to transport water in Camels...another to distribute a gadget that clean dirty water..another to dig 1,000 toilets all over kenya. If we have transport problem in main corridor..they will give some NGO trademark...contract to hold conference along the north corrindor..imploring the gov to reduce road blocks...some money to got Drivers and Manamba touts to buy them condoms in Mlolongo stop over..couple of dollars to Shipper councils..to organize capacity building.

And what exactly is China's contribution to such things in Kenya?

Quote
What will china do. It will help gov do what China has done.

I not asking about China might/will do, especially because I have to concrete basis to determine what it might/will do.   I am asking about what it has actually done.   

Quote
We have food security problem..how about you invest massive amounts of money in irrigation scheme..build a fertilizer factory..the aim to ensure we have in few yrs plentiful and cheap food. How about you build big shoe factory to turn around the fortunes of nomads. When it comes to Water...China will invest in massive water supply systems..
   

China will, China will, China.  When will they?  Kenyans and others still routinely beg for food.  Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems?  Where are all those factories in Kenya?  (Last I heard, your were bragging about the  trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.)   Where in Kenya are those "massive water supply systems"?   

Quote
a huge dam like the one they are building in Ethiopia and Sudan...you have problem with transport...expand the roads..modernize the railway..like SGR they have done in Kenya,Ethiopia and Nigera....

"SGR they have done in Kenya"?   I haven't seen it.   Anyway, as I pointed out, go look at the railways the Chinese build in places like Tanzania and so on?  Kenya?  We know what Kenya does with its railways.

Quote
The impact of Chinese projects are all there to be seen. There is even no need to measure or evaluate.

When it comes to generic hand-waving, you are at your best.  Ati all there to be seen, no need to measure!   I have already asked you about the "great things" that China has done in Kenya.   You gave a list.   A pathetic one.   So we won't repeat that exercise?

I have also pointed out to you the dangers of "It is there!  I can see it with my own eyes!".   It is the mentality that leads people to focus on things like stadiums and shiny railways while  diarrhea keeps killing their children and they have to regularly beg for food in order to stay alive. 

Quote
Tazara and other projects by previous communist China is really desperation from your end..We are talking new China.

Again, very curious logic, and you miss the point.   Whether  the railway was build by "Communist China" or "new China" is completely irrelevant.  The main point is that it was built, and we know what happened after that.

Quote
The China that has been doing amazing things in all countries in Africa...

Yes, I saw your list of "amazing things" in Kenya  :D

Here's a thought that amused me this morning, as I reflected on these criticisms that the West has failed in Africa:   the criticism are done by people who went to educational systems started by the West, used Western-developed infrastructure and facilities, use a Western language, adhere to a religion that came from the West, etc.,etc. etc.  And to round it all off, convey their criticisms using technology invented by the West.

Anyway, one more time:

(1) It is not the West's responsibility to take care of Africa.   So it is absurd to keep saying that they have failed in Africa.

(2) If whatever money the West has put into Africa has gone to waste---and that is yet to be established objectively---then it is not the West that has failed; it is the recipients.

(3) Africans---at least those like you who seem to think so---need to give up this idea that either the West or the East will save them.   They need to start doing for themselves, and a good place to start would be to feed themselves instead of having to rely on perpetual begging.

(4) Africa needs to first focus on human development.  One can eat or drink a stadium or a railway.




Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 06:08:21 PM »
Although the deal is structured badly i am still amazed that China can entrust us with 5B dollars in one deal. Your yankees friends will never do that and have never done that. China are taking a huge risk..

And that is phase 1. Phase 2 is coming shortly. Kampala should be concluding their deal.

That single china project is set to increase our GDP by 2%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is breathtaking stuff.

And it's not just the interest.   The insurance on the Exim loan is 6.9% of the loan!   Talk about getting free money from Kenyans!   But Pundit will still tell you that China is giving, giving, giving.

Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 06:53:51 PM »
i am still amazed that China can entrust us with 5B dollars in one deal.

You are talking NONSENSE...The west was ready to give a small country like Rwanda $3.2BN during their Eurobond,They were also ready to give $8BN to Kenya during our Eurobond to invest in energy or whatever in just one deal,

Lets just look at the private sector the major shareholders are the west,Infact a western corporation called Boeing trusted Kenya airways with 9 Boeing 787 jets worth about $3BN Vs China $3.5BN rail loan,

Infact who will pay for the Chinese loan?Its the majority west owned corporations in Kenya like KQ EABL Equity Bank...remittances,exports and tourists from the west,

There is nothing special about China,Anyway,can you feed those starving muranga residents with rail?

Without Prejudice.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2015, 08:01:22 PM »
China are taking a huge risk..

Sorry, I think I missed something somewhere.  Remind me again: the 6.9% of loan for insurance is for what?

Quote
That single china project is set to increase our GDP by 2%

Having seen all sorts of economic predictions, all I can say is that you should wake me up when that happens.   In the meantime, Vision 2030---of which it is supposedly a key element---confirms that it is might be a good idea.  Take a look under "Benefits" here:

http://www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/projects/details/Macro_enablers/197
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