Author Topic: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC  (Read 15102 times)

Offline vooke

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Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« on: December 07, 2014, 08:20:08 AM »
How comes ICC won't refer Kenya to the Assembly of State Parties for obstructing justice by refusing to hand over required evidence?

Is this a political move to cury favor with the Negro members or is it because they are bullsh*ting?
Or, is obstruction of justice a minor offence not worth referral?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2014, 07:04:12 PM »
How comes ICC won't refer Kenya to the Assembly of State Parties for obstructing justice by refusing to hand over required evidence?

Is this a political move to cury favor with the Negro members or is it because they are bullsh*ting?
Or, is obstruction of justice a minor offence not worth referral?
What the ICC judges are saying in a nutshell.  They don't have the means to enforce the rule of law when a state goes rogue.  Neither do they have faith that the assembly of states can be counted upon to enforce it.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Omollo

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2014, 07:21:09 PM »
vooke

I believe that the OTP went to sleep and by that let down Kenyans and victims of PEV. There is much that could have been done by the OTP to force the Kenya government to either comply or be obviously non compliant.

What GoK did is to hide behind technicalities you and I know are simple lies. Yet these technicalities gave them the cover to hide under the statutes and not exactly be non cooperative and not exactly cooperative. In other words there was insifficient basis to find them non cooperative. GoK would have challenged any finding of non cooperation in the Appeal's chamber and won.

What OTP could have done was to hire a firm like Kroll or Price WaterHouse and give them the task of finding Uhuru's companies, Land interests and cars and telephone numbers he used. Such things like bank accounts and telephone numbers cannot remain secret because they interact with other phones and bank accounts. With the information, OTP could then frame her requests more specifically.

For example the Lands ministry, Motor vehicle registry, Company Registry claimed they have no mechanism of blind searching and can only search what is already known. In other words, vooke owns a car but you cannot walk to the motor registry and ask to know what cars vooke owns. You need the number to then go and get confirmation. That you know is bullshit!

So GoK adapted the line, tell us the land registration number and we confirm if he owns it or not! OTP could not yet google alone knows quite a bit of what Uhuru and family own. The Ndung'u report has more than enough information. If Uhuru could not give his phone numbers, any embassy could disclose it. They had the number because he called them. If not the people he called could free their records. So here you see total ineptitude that could not be blamed on GoK.

GoK was unwilling to help the OTP. Therefore they only surrendered what they could not hold back:
Quote
Additionally, the Chamber observes that nothing in the Revised Request directed the Kenyan Government to confine itself to making enquiries only of the Companies Registry. If ownership or directorship interests could not be obtained through a direct search with that registry, other avenues, which have been repeatedly identified to the Kenyan Government, such as lists of interests of office holders or tax returns, should have been pursued. No adequate explanation has been provided for why this was not done by the Kenyan Government. The Chamber notes that the failure to execute the Company Records request has also impacted on execution of each of the requests for Land Transfer Records, Tax Records, Vehicle Records, Bank Records and Foreign Transaction Records.
Consequently the Court alluded to a capacity problem (which in my opinion is far fetched and non existent if not outrightly untrue) and more relevantly to "a result of insufficient information having been provided by the Prosecution." This is information the OTP could have easily procured even here and at .choo. The court added rather to the shame of the OTP: "Chamber again notes the Prosecution's submission that it is not in a position to challenge the explanations offered by the Companies Registry".

Of course with a little effort say a secret search of an unrelated matter, an interview with an official of the registry on the workings of the registry, a review of the software used, the OTP could have easily impugned the GoK lie. But that comes with some effort.

There were some ridiculous things that Githu Muigai said that the OTP failed to knock down. The claim that one needs the pin of the accused to search the land records. It turned out that in fact it is the pin of the person searching that is required. But OTP let Muigai repeat and get away with the LIE that they needed Uhuru's pin and they did not know it. Never mind that he has filed it in tax returns, and probably 30 million people know it. The chamber again:
Quote
The Kenyan Government has submitted that certain further information is required in order to execute the request issued under this category. In this regard, when the Chamber asked the Kenyan Government about the reasonableness of its submission that a PIN is a necessary prerequisite to conducting relevant searches, the Attorney General provided an explanation that focused on the PIN of the accused. However, upon a cursory search by the Chamber, the publicly available 'Application for official search' form^^^ suggests that the PIN in question may rather be that of the party
seeking the search to be conducted.
56. In either event, the Chamber considers unhelpful the Kenyan Government's repeated representation that the provision of, inter alia, such a PIN by the Prosecution is necessary in order to execute the request. Furthermore, even if the Chamber assumes that the accused's PIN is necessary in order to execute the request, it considers it unreasonable that the Kenyan Government could not identify the PIN of the accused

As noted earlier, the OTP's failures come to the fore and are pointed out by the chamber:
Quote
However, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution did not make any substantive submissions regarding the reasonableness or necessity of the additional information sought by the Kenyan Government in the context of the Land Transfer Records. The Chamber considers that again, in the circumstances, it would have been advisable for the Prosecution to do so.

Again here you see that when GoK is at the brink of being found culpable, the oTP lends it a helping hand by failing to deliver the killer blow or coup de grace. The judges observe that the OTP could have challenged GoK to check the payment of stamp duty which would have disclosed land transactions by the accused. Like I noted earlier any lawyer resident in Kenya could have supplied this information without going outside his office. So the chamber found it cannot entirely blame GoK since the OTP cannot challenge the lies of the Lands Registry.

On taxes, Githu Muigai LIED again:  that the revenue authority does not retain the tax return forms submitted by tax payers - appeared to base itself on a letter from the Kenyan Revenue Authority, which, in the view of the Chamber, is not necessarily clear on this point. . A Nairobi lawyer could easily disapprove that. Plus it is not the tax return but the outcome of the tax returns that matter. OTP did not challenge that lie and hence the chamber while doubting it had to accept it by default. Had the OTP objected, she could have had a ready ear in the judges:
Quote
the Chamber observes that it would be unusual for original tax return forms to be destroyed within a short timeframe from the date of their receipt; as such documents may be required for evidentiary purposes in the event of subsequent disputes or allegations of fraud in relation to a taxpayer. Even if it is the case that tax return forms from the relevant years have now been destroyed, the Chamber notes that providing a clear response to that effect in a timely manner would have enabled the Prosecution to either challenge the position or consider alternative avenues. Additionally, in the absence of any indication as to what steps, if any, might have been taken to identify beneficial interests, the Chamber considers inadequate the mere representation that no beneficial interests of the accused have been identified by the authority.
On taxes therefore, OTP scored by default. The chamber found GoK uncooperative.

On Vehicles : Githu only provided details of vehicles provided by Uhuru's defence. OTP did not contest the list and therefore the judges are not sure whether the list is comprehensive. Again an opportunity to fry GoK was let go. Strangely, OTP expressed satisfaction with the list provided. Talk of ineptitude!

Uhuru's bank records were partially hidden. Here, the OTP made clear efforts to pursue GoK and it paid off with an adverse finding by the court.

On Telephone Records: Adverse finding against GoK

I need not summarize the ruling but you can see from this paragraph under "Overall Assessment" the underlying reasoning:
Quote
In an overall consideration of these eight specific categories of requested material, the Chamber finds that the explanations provided by the Kenyan Government for non provision of materials, were, in certain cases, framed in an unhelpful manner that did not respond clearly to queries raised. Moreover, it is apparent that - save in the case of Foreign Transaction Records - there has been a complete failure to pursue alternative sources of information. Despite the open language of the Revised Request, which provided the Kenyan Government with a degree of flexibility in how it could be implemented, and the provision of specific suggestions of avenues of potential enquiry from the Prosecution, the Kenyan Government appears to have persisted in a narrow approach which simply repeated the alleged 'impossibility' of one particular method of execution.

( I will continue later)
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 10:11:54 PM »

I disagree with your assessment. Every time Bensouda grabbed a mic, she whined about frustration by GoK bust still went ahead to request for information probably impossible for the government to provide and she succeeded in some quarters in painting GoK as hostile.

Had Vague even attempted a referral only to be frustrated, they would readily point to the frustration. This is more sensible as opposed to fantasizing the whole world buying this BS
What the ICC judges are saying in a nutshell.  They don't have the means to enforce the rule of law when a state goes rogue.  Neither do they have faith that the assembly of states can be counted upon to enforce it.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 10:33:52 PM »
Omorlo my broda,
I really like your attention to details. Am envious.
I will differ with you slightly. I don't believe Ouru took to technicalities to hide nothing. Here's why; what is easier, clinging to obscure clauses with the attendant uncertainty of your BS being called out or whitewashing ALL the records requested and then complying?

Looks like the Court was not convinced by Bensouda lame excuses
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2014, 10:43:17 PM »

I disagree with your assessment. Every time Bensouda grabbed a mic, she whined about frustration by GoK bust still went ahead to request for information probably impossible for the government to provide and she succeeded in some quarters in painting GoK as hostile.

Had Vague even attempted a referral only to be frustrated, they would readily point to the frustration. This is more sensible as opposed to fantasizing the whole world buying this BS
What the ICC judges are saying in a nutshell.  They don't have the means to enforce the rule of law when a state goes rogue.  Neither do they have faith that the assembly of states can be counted upon to enforce it.
Why do you disagree?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 10:49:52 PM »
Omollo,

The long and short of the decision.  The court agrees with the prosecution.  But it throws in the towel.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Omollo

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2014, 01:32:07 AM »
My position is simple: OTP screwed up a very simple case. She could have driven GoK to the wall. It clearly shows when driven to the wall with specific requests they complied. There is also nothing that prevented the OTP from directly filing an inquiry with the various agencies. OTP could have hired a local advocate to obtain banking records the way Uhuru went to court for other people phone records. That door was open by him and OTP should have used it.

You are in no position to divine what was contained in information you did not see. You can't say it had nothing. Why then didn't he give it up like the car registration numbers? He surrendered those unchallenged.

Omorlo my broda,
I really like your attention to details. Am envious.
I will differ with you slightly. I don't believe Ouru took to technicalities to hide nothing. Here's why; what is easier, clinging to obscure clauses with the attendant uncertainty of your BS being called out or whitewashing ALL the records requested and then complying?

Looks like the Court was not convinced by Bensouda lame excuses
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 07:15:38 AM »
1. You have zero proof the court has no confidence in the ASP
2. It is more sensible having a referral frustrated than imagining it will be frustrated

I disagree with your assessment. Every time Bensouda grabbed a mic, she whined about frustration by GoK bust still went ahead to request for information probably impossible for the government to provide and she succeeded in some quarters in painting GoK as hostile.

Had Vague even attempted a referral only to be frustrated, they would readily point to the frustration. This is more sensible as opposed to fantasizing the whole world buying this BS
What the ICC judges are saying in a nutshell.  They don't have the means to enforce the rule of law when a state goes rogue.  Neither do they have faith that the assembly of states can be counted upon to enforce it.
Why do you disagree?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 07:23:18 AM »

There are 1001 things OTP shoulda,coulda,woulda.
My focus is on the referral. WHY not refer Kenia to ASP if GoK really frustrated Bensouda?
Is it in order to state that she could not convince the court of her frustration?
My position is simple: OTP screwed up a very simple case. She could have driven GoK to the wall. It clearly shows when driven to the wall with specific requests they complied. There is also nothing that prevented the OTP from directly filing an inquiry with the various agencies. OTP could have hired a local advocate to obtain banking records the way Uhuru went to court for other people phone records. That door was open by him and OTP should have used it.

You are in no position to divine what was contained in information you did not see. You can't say it had nothing. Why then didn't he give it up like the car registration numbers? He surrendered those unchallenged.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 07:25:57 AM »

Not sure about the agreeing bit. The throwing in the towel, is it the most logical thing to do? If so, why?
Omollo,

The long and short of the decision.  The court agrees with the prosecution.  But it throws in the towel.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 09:04:34 AM »
What would ASP really do to enforce their orders. Nothing. It seem just like a procedural thing to do in state vis icc conflict.

OTP should have used article 75 against anybody obstructing them...including AG.

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 09:09:35 AM »
Obviously Kenia would be under more pressure to comply and would look really bad if they ignored ASP. That's how the court gets to wash its hands over this case
What would ASP really do to enforce their orders. Nothing. It seem just like a procedural thing to do in state vis icc conflict.

OTP should have used article 75 against anybody obstructing them...including AG.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2014, 12:05:55 PM »

Not sure about the agreeing bit. The throwing in the towel, is it the most logical thing to do? If so, why?
Omollo,

The long and short of the decision.  The court agrees with the prosecution.  But it throws in the towel.
Throwing in the towel.  I take that back.  While indistinguishable from throwing in the towel from a practical perspective, that is not the intent of the decision.

The judges have no faith that the ASP would uphold their findings.  Something that would prejudice future charges and effectively sanitize Kenya's behavior.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2014, 12:44:56 PM »
Their failure to refer Kenia prejudices future charges and makes Kenia saintly while effectively portraying Bensouda as a mad woman; she is whining about non-cooperation and the court does none of the least expected that is 'sue' Kenia. They left her dangling in the wind.

The reason they will not refer Kenia is because they have no confidence in Bensouda rants
Throwing in the towel.  I take that back.  While indistinguishable from throwing in the towel from a practical perspective, that is not the intent of the decision.

The judges have no faith that the ASP would uphold their findings.  Something that would prejudice future charges and effectively sanitize Kenya's behavior.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2014, 02:41:30 PM »
I thought you wanted a sober debate. Take this to choo.
Their failure to refer Kenia prejudices future charges and makes Kenia saintly while effectively portraying Bensouda as a mad woman; she is whining about non-cooperation and the court does none of the least expected that is 'sue' Kenia. They left her dangling in the wind.

The reason they will not refer Kenia is because they have no confidence in Bensouda rants
Throwing in the towel.  I take that back.  While indistinguishable from throwing in the towel from a practical perspective, that is not the intent of the decision.

The judges have no faith that the ASP would uphold their findings.  Something that would prejudice future charges and effectively sanitize Kenya's behavior.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2014, 03:36:34 PM »
That is a convenient excuse. I have not insulted nobody nor ridiculed nobody's opinions, just pointed out how ludicrous they are.

Once again, ICC has nothing on Kenia, otherwise ASP would have been their first resort
I thought you wanted a sober debate. Take this to choo.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2014, 03:43:36 PM »
I take exception of the characterization which has no bearing to the reality. Bensouda is a figured head of a complex office. She does not run the individual cases and they are many as you can appreciate. She is so to speak a mere spokesperson. So the GEMA personalization of the case complete with her effigy in demos in Nairobi and Central orchestrated by a tribal cabal have no bearing to the reality. I do not wish to get in to that kind of exchange where you are saying she is a mad woman (the usual Njamlik invective) and I saying she is not. That isn't the debate I yearn to see here.

So concentrate on issues and go slow on sloganeering and we can talk. Otherwise, adjourn the debate to choo where I will be linguistically free.
That is a convenient excuse. I have not insulted nobody nor ridiculed nobody's opinions, just pointed out how ludicrous they are.

Once again, ICC has nothing on Kenia, otherwise ASP would have been their first resort
I thought you wanted a sober debate. Take this to choo.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2014, 04:23:44 PM »
Bensouda is the face of OTP and you went as far as saying she failed. She is a failure. So you are really digressing

She has made some outrageous claims. We can waste us examining the veracity of her claims but am least interested. It is the response to her claims by the judges/court that tickle me. The court appears to ignore her for good reasons which I sought to understand. That's all there is to this thread

Here is Makau Mutua's take on the matter
Quote
Read more at: http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000143845&story_title=Kenya-what-withdrawal-of-charges-means-for-uhuruto-future


I take exception of the characterization which has no bearing to the reality. Bensouda is a figured head of a complex office. She does not run the individual cases and they are many as you can appreciate. She is so to speak a mere spokesperson. So the GEMA personalization of the case complete with her effigy in demos in Nairobi and Central orchestrated by a tribal cabal have no bearing to the reality. I do not wish to get in to that kind of exchange where you are saying she is a mad woman (the usual Njamlik invective) and I saying she is not. That isn't the debate I yearn to see here.

So concentrate on issues and go slow on sloganeering and we can talk. Otherwise, adjourn the debate to choo where I will be linguistically free.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Omorlo and MoonKi, on ICC
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2014, 04:54:48 PM »
I referred to her in her in the capacity your mention. But when you go "mad woman" that is not the same thing.
Bensouda is the face of OTP and you went as far as saying she failed. She is a failure. So you are really digressing

She has made some outrageous claims. We can waste us examining the veracity of her claims but am least interested. It is the response to her claims by the judges/court that tickle me. The court appears to ignore her for good reasons which I sought to understand. That's all there is to this thread

Here is Makau Mutua's take on the matter
Quote
Read more at: http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000143845&story_title=Kenya-what-withdrawal-of-charges-means-for-uhuruto-future


I take exception of the characterization which has no bearing to the reality. Bensouda is a figured head of a complex office. She does not run the individual cases and they are many as you can appreciate. She is so to speak a mere spokesperson. So the GEMA personalization of the case complete with her effigy in demos in Nairobi and Central orchestrated by a tribal cabal have no bearing to the reality. I do not wish to get in to that kind of exchange where you are saying she is a mad woman (the usual Njamlik invective) and I saying she is not. That isn't the debate I yearn to see here.

So concentrate on issues and go slow on sloganeering and we can talk. Otherwise, adjourn the debate to choo where I will be linguistically free.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread