Kabebe - How Long Before Catholics Warm Up To Faggots?

[RV Pundit]

We are secular society...so once we decide that blacks are human..that women are equal to men...that gays are also humans..it become very hard for church to operate against that.

The society [secular] will have to come hard on the church if they were to openly discriminate or spread hate against gays.DailyDollar cannot dare repeat  his homophobia in US because he will feel the pain.

That day is coming soon and has already arrived in developed world. You'll not be able to hide behind the bible...to perpetuate hate. The Gov will be forced to declare you a hateful group, deny you any public incentive (like no taxation, ability to ran schools, deal with kids) and even de-register you.

In short the secular society will win. Only those days when pope was gov would catholic afford to be aloof to what is happening in their societies.The Anglican church has read this correctly.Gays have won their rights and freedoms to be treated with dignity.

Regarding Middle east and Islam....those guys are in dire need of first generation human rights and freedom..leave alone these new rights...the right to chose your sexual orientation.

I have always wondered myself. Apparently, religions are supposed to obey the tenets of secular-humanism, a religion in its own right if you look at it properly, and they are to disregard their own faith wherever it clashes with what this movement believes.  Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!

[kadame]

The issue of divorce is pretty difficult. Unlike vooke's church of 50 people where the good pastor can ignore such a thing as he prays about it, the Catholic church doesn't have this liberty. It's not like contaceptives where you teach what you believe and people do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their homes, but this is actually a case of if you allow people who are living an adulterous life to partake the communion, (that's the interpretation of many churches.) Now, at what point do you stop?

Indeed. What is actually difficult about the whole thing is the definition of a sacramental marriage. The church's teaching has always distinguished between sacramental marriages and merely natural marriages. Sacramental marriage is what happens between two Christians and is permanent, relflecting and continuing Christ's marriage to the church. Just as Christ can never leave the church, neither can a Christian leave their spouse.  Natural marriage, between two non-Christians or between a Christian and a non-Christian can be dissolved in some instances (read 1st Corinthians 7, st paul) and the Christian can remarry  later, or if the non-Christian later becomes Christian after remarrying, then that's considered ok.

The actual point of contention is basically who counts as "Christian". The church has always taught that its anybody that's been baptized. Now many catholics who are following what Cardinal Kasper is proposing are of the view that mere baptism without faith should not be considered enough for a new covenant marriage to result. Many of the catholics now wanting to return to the church were baptized as children or even as teenagers but were never actually taught their faith. Most catholics know very little of their faith. So they left the church, did their thing, and have only rediscovered their faith much later while already in 2nd marriages. Some people are suggesting that their former marriages should not be considered sacramental because they were not really believers anyway, despite their baptism.

Another solution that was suggested by former pope (Benedict xvi) is that the lack of faith during the vows can be seen to diminish their consent so that a valid marriage does not result. For example, due to the present culture, many people while getting married do not actually intend to commit for life, they are of the view that if they find difficulties, they can divorce and remarry and that's ok. they don't intend to divorce but they also don't really intend a Christian commitment. So the pope suggested it was possible they could get annullments of marriages contracted like so and that the annulment process should itself be less formal/judicial, more pastoral where the bishop and some priests can evaluate the situation in a confessional-like setting and give the dispensation.

Cardinal Kasper's suggestion is controversial because without annullments, they would be permitted communion, which seems to question the teaching on permanent marriage or the teaching on communion. So the solution bishops finally agreed on and voted to be discussed in the next synod was that in some circumstances, especially where the situation seems irreversible and children are involved, the person might be allowed communion based on the notion that they may not be personally guilty of mortal sin, especially if they entered the 2nd marriage under the belief that they were not doing anything wrong. This latter is what will be discussed in the next synod.

[TheDayTheDollarDies]

RVP, what do you mean by saying "we are a secular society." As Kababe has told you, not everyone is a secularist since Secularism is nothing more than a religion of Hate. You're living in your bubble. According to you In Kenya if we were to do a referendum, I'm sure according to your superb analytic skills, we'll have over 96% supporting faggots. Faggots and their supporters always try to win arguments with lies. A super Majority of the world consider homosexuality as irredeemably repulsive. Just because Europe and a half of the US population condones faggotry, doesn't mean that the world has accepted homosexuality. You need to decolonise your mind and move the centre. Ngugi wa Thiong's collection of essays by the same title is a good place to start.

second, there's nothing like homophobia. It's just another politically correct term to label people who oppose faggotry. Liberals, if they can't beat you will label you. So what is the meaning of Homophobia? Islamophobia? What is the fear of Pedophiles called? What about the hatred for Christianity - I think the liberals should get a good name to label you for your constant fear of Christianity.

Lastly, what serious trouble did Ben Phelps get for this campaign? Please not the "Do not cross police line " barrier. How come he was never arrested. Please use facts.



They have a website - http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Now, report them to the FBI

[kadame]

We are secular society...so once we decide that blacks are human..that women are equal to men...that gays are also humans..it become very hard for church to operate against that.

The society [secular] will have to come hard on the church if they were to openly discriminate or spread hate against gays.DailyDollar cannot dare repeat  his homophobia in US because he will feel the pain.

That day is coming soon and has already arrived in developed world. You'll not be able to hide behind the bible...to perpetuate hate. The Gov will be forced to declare you a hateful group, deny you any public incentive (like no taxation, ability to ran schools, deal with kids) and even de-register you.

In short the secular society will win. Only those days when pope was gov would catholic afford to be aloof to what is happening in their societies.The Anglican church has read this correctly.Gays have won their rights and freedoms to be treated with dignity.

Regarding Middle east and Islam....those guys are in dire need of first generation human rights and freedom..leave alone these new rights...the right to chose your sexual orientation.

I have always wondered myself. Apparently, religions are supposed to obey the tenets of secular-humanism, a religion in its own right if you look at it properly, and they are to disregard their own faith wherever it clashes with what this movement believes.  Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!

None of those things (blacks are human, women and men are equal) have forced the church to change her doctrines, this gay thing is of a whole different order. Besides, the church does not ordain women and she still survives, and the church condemned the trans-Atlantic slave trade from its beginning and taught that Indians and Africans were human. The gay thing will not be accepted and the church will survive. It will not be the first time she must live in a hostile environment. Powerful movements have come and gone, more powerful than this 3-decade old movement, lasted far longer, even centuries, and the church outlived them all.

[vooke]

You just talked like Vera Sidika
She wondered why her haterz was so worried with her bleach instead of watching it backfire and them having the last laugh. Declining influence of Christianity is probably some consolation agnostics and atheists cling to when they have nothing else to support them. But personally from my study of scriptures, the church is only postponing the inevitable; we are hurtling towards evil,wickedness and blasphemy. Fatalism I stand accused but it is a reality

Homosexuality is largely a cultural issue and that's why America frowns at polygamy. may be in the next 50 years, we will have animal husbandry as an agenda. Is it really wrong to have sex with a dog? Nobody gets hurt any way, spares you Ebola and HIV. Not far fetched

Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!

[RV Pundit]

Apart from Vatican and islamic states; the rest of world is secular; we depend on constitution and laws to define right and wrong;not the bible;Gays have won secular rights in many countries including in south africa;That protect them from hateful people like you;There is nothing you can do to gays in south africa, US and pretty much western world and part of Asia. You dare only use the word faggot here. In couple more yrs they will win in Africa as more people become informed,travel and realize gays are not harming anybody; that gays are our brothers and sisters; our friends;

No need to hate gays. Hate criminals.What will you do when you son or daughter turn out gay?

RVP, what do you mean by saying "we are a secular society." As Kababe has told you, not everyone is a secularist since Secularism is nothing more than a religion of Hate. You're living in your bubble. According to you In Kenya if we were to do a referendum, I'm sure according to your superb analytic skills, we'll have over 96% supporting faggots. Faggots and their supporters always try to win arguments with lies. A super Majority of the world consider homosexuality as irredeemably repulsive. Just because Europe and a half of the US population condones faggotry, doesn't mean that the world has accepted homosexuality. You need to decolonise your mind and move the centre. Ngugi wa Thiong's collection of essays by the same title is a good place to start.

second, there's nothing like homophobia. It's just another politically correct term to label people who oppose faggotry. Liberals, if they can't beat you will label you. So what is the meaning of Homophobia? Islamophobia? What is the fear of Pedophiles called? What about the hatred for Christianity - I think the liberals should get a good name to label you for your constant fear of Christianity.

Lastly, what serious trouble did Ben Phelps get for this campaign? Please not the "Do not cross police line " barrier. How come he was never arrested. Please use facts.


They have a website - http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Now, report them to the FBI

[kadame]

  Ati animal husbandry? That is funny! Actually, you are right. The tide is certainly headed that way.

You just talked like Vera Sidika
She wondered why her haterz was so worried with her bleach instead of watching it backfire and them having the last laugh. Declining influence of Christianity is probably some consolation agnostics and atheists cling to when they have nothing else to support them. But personally from my study of scriptures, the church is only postponing the inevitable; we are hurtling towards evil,wickedness and blasphemy. Fatalism I stand accused but it is a reality

Homosexuality is largely a cultural issue and that's why America frowns at polygamy. may be in the next 50 years, we will have animal husbandry as an agenda. Is it really wrong to have sex with a dog? Nobody gets hurt any way, spares you Ebola and HIV. Not far fetched

Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

You just talked like Vera Sidika
She wondered why her haterz was so worried with her bleach instead of watching it backfire and them having the last laugh. Declining influence of Christianity is probably some consolation agnostics and atheists cling to when they have nothing else to support them. But personally from my study of scriptures, the church is only postponing the inevitable; we are hurtling towards evil,wickedness and blasphemy. Fatalism I stand accused but it is a reality

Homosexuality is largely a cultural issue and that's why America frowns at polygamy. may be in the next 50 years, we will have animal husbandry as an agenda. Is it really wrong to have sex with a dog? Nobody gets hurt any way, spares you Ebola and HIV. Not far fetched

Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!

People are going to talk about religion because it is part of the culture.  A huge part.


The only constant is change. One may try to keep up.  But at some point, it is inevitable that in the future people will read about us like a bad joke from the neolithic.


There was a time it was laughable to suggest that the Negro was more than 1/3rd human or something along those lines.

[TheDayTheDollarDies]

Apart from Vatican and islamic states; the rest of world is secular; we depend on constitution and laws to define right and wrong;not the bible;Gays have won secular rights in many countries including in south africa;That protect them from hateful people like you;There is nothing you can do to gays in south africa, US and pretty much western world and part of Asia. You dare only use the word faggot here. In couple more yrs they will win in Africa as more people become informed,travel and realize gays are not harming anybody; that gays are our brothers and sisters; our friends;

No need to hate gays. Hate criminals.What will you do when you son or daughter turn out gay?

RVP, what do you mean by saying "we are a secular society." As Kababe has told you, not everyone is a secularist since Secularism is nothing more than a religion of Hate. You're living in your bubble. According to you In Kenya if we were to do a referendum, I'm sure according to your superb analytic skills, we'll have over 96% supporting faggots. Faggots and their supporters always try to win arguments with lies. A super Majority of the world consider homosexuality as irredeemably repulsive. Just because Europe and a half of the US population condones faggotry, doesn't mean that the world has accepted homosexuality. You need to decolonise your mind and move the centre. Ngugi wa Thiong's collection of essays by the same title is a good place to start.

second, there's nothing like homophobia. It's just another politically correct term to label people who oppose faggotry. Liberals, if they can't beat you will label you. So what is the meaning of Homophobia? Islamophobia? What is the fear of Pedophiles called? What about the hatred for Christianity - I think the liberals should get a good name to label you for your constant fear of Christianity.

Lastly, what serious trouble did Ben Phelps get for this campaign? Please not the "Do not cross police line " barrier. How come he was never arrested. Please use facts.


They have a website - http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Now, report them to the FBI

I showed you a photo of people using the word "Faggots" in front of cops - in the US. So what happened to them? "WE" are NOT defined by a written constitution. What about countries that do not have written constitutions, how are they defined? So African societies din't exist because they never had constitutions?

[RV Pundit]

Well seem like protected speech...you can call somebody nigga and get away with it..but be careful because your boss or sponsor or customer might be gay and they wouldn't like.For the polemics regarding how societies are defined...i think you're on slippery slope.

The right to a sexual orientation of your liking is pretty much a settled issue in advanced societies. Both sides have argued but end of the day...people realized gays were harmless...and were granted rights against being discriminated.

This will eventually happen in Kenya. I use to be hostile to gays but nowadays i realized i was wrong. Those guys are not affecting my life in anyway.

I showed you a photo of people using the word "Faggots" in front of cops - in the US. So what happened to them? "WE" are NOT defined by a written constitution. What about countries that do not have written constitutions, how are they defined? So African societies din't exist because they never had constitutions?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Well seem like protected speech...you can call somebody nigga and get away with it..but be careful because your boss or sponsor or customer might be gay and they wouldn't like.For the polemics regarding how societies are defined...i think you're on slippery slope.

The right to a sexual orientation of your liking is pretty much a settled issue in advanced societies. Both sides have argued but end of the day...people realized gays were harmless...and were granted rights against being discriminated.

This will eventually happen in Kenya. I use to be hostile to gays but nowadays i realized i was wrong. Those guys are not affecting my life in anyway.

I showed you a photo of people using the word "Faggots" in front of cops - in the US. So what happened to them? "WE" are NOT defined by a written constitution. What about countries that do not have written constitutions, how are they defined? So African societies din't exist because they never had constitutions?

In fact if your image is caught in one of those pics, you are out of a job unless you are self employed.  No ifs or buts.  The beauty of capitalist friendly USA.


I still see some use for the church in poorer countries.  Because they provide some badly needed services.  But as the countries get wealthier, they will go the way of the rest of the developed world.

[RV Pundit]

Binyavanga was in toronto gay parade dressed as woman
http://www.ghafla.co.ke/news/fashion/item/25783-fashion-disaster-binyavanga-steps-out-in-a-tulle-skirt-and-fur-photos
Meanwhile just found out one of my fav actor is gay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris#mediaviewer/File:DavidBurtkaNeilPatrickHarrisHWOFSept2011.jpg

[Kichwambaya]

I am very conservative on some issues such as gun control and therefore I do not buy into the silly labels.  The same christian church once upon a time believed that slavery of black people was consistent with christian teachings.  They have changed their minds and that is why I expect them to change their minds.  The same christian church believed that the Jewish people were christ killers and most of the Nazis were good christians. That has since changed.  Sometimes the church follows the circular culture and I think in the case of homo-sexuality they will.  This is a human rights issue and not dependent of religion just like FGM, child labor, apartheid, colonialism and other forms discrimination.  Nobody is asking the catholic church or you to celebrate gay people, just let them enjoy the rights of full-citizenry and stay away from them if you wish.

Why MUST the Catholic church make this fundamental shift? This is what i don't understand with liberals. How come you've never said, MUSLIMS MUST make this fundamental shift? If you believe faggotry is cool, okay, and something to be celebrated; why must you force other people to accept it? So much for tolerance.

What makes people HATE everything to do with homosexuality, has little to do with what they do in their privacy, but what they are forcing us to "accept" and "celebrate." They took a great word, - "gay" and turned it into something evil. It would have been better if they stuck to queer. That's why i still use faggot. I think the dictionary says it's ok

[/quote]

[kadame]

The same christian church once upon a time believed that slavery of black people was consistent with christian teachings.  They have changed their minds and that is why I expect them to change their minds.  The same christian church believed that the Jewish people were christ killers and most of the Nazis were good christians. That has since changed.  Sometimes the church follows the circular culture and I think in the case of homo-sexuality they will.  This is a human rights issue and not dependent of religion just like FGM, child labor, apartheid, colonialism and other forms discrimination.  Nobody is asking the catholic church or you to celebrate gay people, just let them enjoy the rights of full-citizenry and stay away from them if you wish.

Yeah right. This movement is not satisfied with Christians staying away from gays. They are interested in everybody affirming it as correct, anything short of that is unacceptable. Soon the church will be having semi-martyrs being imprisoned for teaching that homosexual sex is a sin in some Western countries. We are already waiting for this to happen, some of our saints even prophesied it, lol! The Church was the first Western institution including governments to condemn the trans-atlantic slave trade and enslavement of Indians and Africans. Sure many catholics participated in it, but we have several papal bulls right from 1600s when the trade started condemning it and demanding the emancipation of enslaved Africans and Indians, one even demanded full monetary compensation to be paid to them. So as far as I know, the church never taught that enslaving Africans was compatible with christianity. The slavery the church was ambiguous with was the inter-religious kind in the middle ages, between Muslims and Christians, during the crusades, they used to enslave each other's soldiers/prisoners of war. The idea that Nazis were considered good Christians is a serious figment of some people's imagination. Apart from Germans themselves I don't know who else on the planet considered Nazis good Christians or even Christian at all.

[kadame]

Binyavanga was in toronto gay parade dressed as woman
http://www.ghafla.co.ke/news/fashion/item/25783-fashion-disaster-binyavanga-steps-out-in-a-tulle-skirt-and-fur-photos
Meanwhile just found out one of my fav actor is gay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris#mediaviewer/File:DavidBurtkaNeilPatrickHarrisHWOFSept2011.jpg

The actor I was quite surprised to learn was gay, Ian McKellen. If you've seen X-Men or Lord of the Rings, he's the guy who plays Magnito and Gandalf. A fantastic actor.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I am very conservative on some issues such as gun control and therefore I do not buy into the silly labels.  The same christian church once upon a time believed that slavery of black people was consistent with christian teachings.  They have changed their minds and that is why I expect them to change their minds.  The same christian church believed that the Jewish people were christ killers and most of the Nazis were good christians. That has since changed.  Sometimes the church follows the circular culture and I think in the case of homo-sexuality they will.  This is a human rights issue and not dependent of religion just like FGM, child labor, apartheid, colonialism and other forms discrimination.  Nobody is asking the catholic church or you to celebrate gay people, just let them enjoy the rights of full-citizenry and stay away from them if you wish.

Why MUST the Catholic church make this fundamental shift? This is what i don't understand with liberals. How come you've never said, MUSLIMS MUST make this fundamental shift? If you believe faggotry is cool, okay, and something to be celebrated; why must you force other people to accept it? So much for tolerance.

What makes people HATE everything to do with homosexuality, has little to do with what they do in their privacy, but what they are forcing us to "accept" and "celebrate." They took a great word, - "gay" and turned it into something evil. It would have been better if they stuck to queer. That's why i still use faggot. I think the dictionary says it's ok

The current Catholic church will not recognize the gay rights they are demanding.  That email of the church merely mentioning that gays are humans with gifts, raised quite a few whispers.  And these are laity.  If you are gay and Catholic, you want to suck it in, "live in sin" or wake up, and live unshackled by such views.

I can see them having clout in places like Africa where they add value to people's lives.  To be fair, I am not a big fan of gays.  But I recognize they are entitled to live in an environment that is not oppressive.

[MOON Ki]

Is it possible to have this discussion without the use of "faggots", which to many is a very offensive word?   Exactly what purpose is served by the vile expressions of hatred that are to be found on this thread?   

As for the "Christian view", some random thoughts:

* The only places where the "Christian Church" is growing is in places like Africa and the rest of the desperate world.  Those who violently shoved Christianity down our throats appear to be moving on.   Apparently those who were found in "darkness" are the only ones to be left in "darkness".   There is no shortage there of folks whose only hope is another world to come.

* A place like the US South is very interesting.   That's where the real die-hard Bible-thumpers are to be found in that country, and their "leaders" sin even more than the "sinners"----money, luxury, kuma.    The Swaggarts, the Bakers, and the like.   All the wild railing against "sinners" makes one wonder what the "railers" are trying to "detract" themselves from ...

Even in places like Kenya and other parts of Africa, if you want to enjoy those things---money, luxury, kuma---the best thing to do is to start a "church" (or go into big-time politics).    And business is booming: in places like Nigeria, the fastest growing class of millionaires---real millionaires---is that of "the servants of the lord".

* The "Catholic Church", which apparently doesn't know the meaning of the word "catholic" is especially funny in their view of the Pope fellow.   The history of the "church" is full of  Popes who were leaders in all sorts of excesses---sexual debauchery, innumerable murders, political shenanigans, money-grabbing ... you name it---that made Caligula look like today's Boy Scout.   (Time permitting, if the True Believers so wish, I will provide a summary as to which Pope did what.)   The papal history is so colourful that according to Seventh-Day-Adventist theology, the Pope is none other than the Devil's personal representative on earth: SDA literature carefully and in detail "explains" why he is the "Beast With 7 Heads and Ten   Horns" in the Book of Daniel ... and as part of their "proof", there is the papal history.   Oh, the Pope and all those Top Catholic folks are always men?    Are the women like "homosexuals"?

Oh ... for now we'll skip The Inquisition, which today would put the Pope in the ICC dock, for crimes against humanity.

[Omollo]

Moon Ki

It is the reason I failed to contribute to it. We have advertisers and this can hit this site very hard. I think I am Moderator only in name so I remained powerless to edit away the offense. I think this must be rectified before we get in to the TOOP trouble.