Most pro hasola MP is an Injun, go figure!

[Njuri Ncheke]

I don't disagree their is tribal affiliation ,what am more curious about is the level of mutual intelligibility between languages among others. Have heard from  a marakwet say he can't understand kipsigis and vice versa. Have also heard some kipsigis also complain thye can't understand tone of the Nandi.So obviously it can't be 99% maybe 50% exist in intelligibility

[RV Pundit]

Meru has 7 or 9 sub tribes. No kipsigis will say they cannot understand Nandi. The difference in words is 1 percent. The rest is accent. Yes Pokot, Sabaot, Arror and Marakwet - conversation will be 50-50 in kiswahili or so.

But Nandi, Tugen (Eldama Ravine), Kipsigis and Keiyo are very similar.

In fact Kipisigis and Tugen of Eldama Ravine (Lembus) accent wise are very close to be almost similar.  Keiyo and Nandi are close accent wise.

When it get to Moi (arror) - then it start sounding like Pokot - way too much turkana in there.

I don't disagree their is tribal affiliation ,what am more curious about is the level of mutual intelligibility between languages among others. Have heard from  a marakwet say he can't understand kipsigis and vice versa. Have also heard some kipsigis also complain thye can't understand tone of the Nandi.So obviously it can't be 99% maybe 50% exist in intelligibility

[Njuri Ncheke]

Meru has 7 or 9 sub tribes. No kipsigis will say they cannot understand Nandi. The difference in words is 1 percent. The rest is accent. Yes Pokot, Sabaot, Arror and Marakwet - conversation will be 50-50 in kiswahili or so.

But Nandi, Tugen (Eldama Ravine), Kipsigis and Keiyo are very similar.

In fact Kipisigis and Tugen of Eldama Ravine (Lembus) accent wise are very close to be almost similar.  Keiyo and Nandi are close accent wise.

When it get to Moi (arror) - then it start sounding like Pokot - way too much turkana in there.

I don't disagree their is tribal affiliation ,what am more curious about is the level of mutual intelligibility between languages among others. Have heard from  a marakwet say he can't understand kipsigis and vice versa. Have also heard some kipsigis also complain thye can't understand tone of the Nandi.So obviously it can't be 99% maybe 50% exist in intelligibility

I think you are intentionally avoiding the main argument. It doesn't matter Meru having 9 subtribes actually it could have even 50 the FACT is that they are all MUTUALLY intelligible. And when you bring Kambas,Kikuyu,Embus,Kirinyaga name them the intelligibility between these languages is 70% at the minimum all across this is a linguistic fact furthermore they constitute a language continuum that lacks in other groupings like baluhya mijikenda,kalenjin.You have stated marakwet pokot are about 50% intelligible with Nandi-Kipsigis. So this clearly means easily Kikuyu,Kamba,Meru,Embu,kirinyaga,mbeere can be easily be constituted in one Tribe going by the definitions that constituted Kalenjin,Miji kenda and Luhya simply on the basis of them having a superior percentage of intelligibility alone even without pulling other obvious factors. Tell me am wrong on this very simple FACT??
Its clear pundit you have a layman understanding of linguistics you are really struggling to explain simple point s. But I guess even Mr. know it all has his limits

[RV Pundit]

There is more to a tribe than just language intelligibility; there is culture, kinship, their is language dna, etc. There is no denying that all bantu languages are related. How much of Kiswahili is a meru whose never been to school able to understand - a lot.

But Merus and Kikuyus cannot be one tribe because there is no kinship ties..even your own theory of origin is different from kikuyus.

Pokot and Kipsigis are related for example - because they trace their common ancestry to Mt elgon - all kalenjin sub tribes can traces their lineage as sons of one father - just like kikuyu claim to be daughters of Mumbi - nearly all kalenjin names are similar - a Meru M'Mukindia and a Karanja from Kiambu is totally different..but Kipchumba or Kiplangat or cherono or name it exist in all kalenjin. Kalenjin religion the same. Kalenjin culture the same. Kalenjin rites of passages the same. Name it - all kalenjin sub tribes are very similar.

You got to Kalenjin clans - they are almost common in all sub-tribes. For example, Talai clan exist in Pokot, Nandi, Tugen, Kipsigis, name it - and all nearly have the same totem or animal - Lion. The clans indicate common lineage...

There is no denying Kalenjin sub tribe have had difference based on intermarriages with other tribes - Kipsigis for example have some gusii/maasia/okiek blood...Nandi has luhya and maasai blood...Pokot has lots of turkana and maasai blood..all these things influence the language...kipsigis of Bomet has some gusii language influence....same way Pokot has turkana influence.

I think you are intentionally avoiding the main argument. It doesn't matter Meru having 9 subtribes actually it could have even 50 the FACT is that they are all MUTUALLY intelligible. And when you bring Kambas,Kikuyu,Embus,Kirinyaga name them the intelligibility between these languages is 70% at the minimum all across this is a linguistic fact furthermore they constitute a language continuum that lacks in other groupings like baluhya mijikenda,kalenjin.You have stated marakwet pokot are about 50% intelligible with Nandi-Kipsigis. So this clearly means easily Kikuyu,Kamba,Meru,Embu,kirinyaga,mbeere can be easily be constituted in one Tribe going by the definitions that constituted Kalenjin,Miji kenda and Luhya simply on the basis of them having a superior percentage of intelligibility alone even without pulling other obvious factors. Tell me am wrong on this very simple FACT??
Its clear pundit you have a layman understanding of linguistics you are really struggling to explain simple point s. But I guess even Mr. know it all has his limits

[Njuri Ncheke]

There is more to a tribe than just language intelligibility; there is culture, kinship, their is language dna, etc. There is no denying that all bantu languages are related. How much of Kiswahili is a meru whose never been to school able to understand - a lot.

But Merus and Kikuyus cannot be one tribe because there is no kinship ties..even your own theory of origin is different from kikuyus.

Pokot and Kipsigis are related for example - because they trace their common ancestry to Mt elgon - all kalenjin sub tribes can traces their lineage as sons of one father - just like kikuyu claim to be daughters of Mumbi - nearly all kalenjin names are similar - a Meru M'Mukindia and a Karanja from Kiambu is totally different..but Kipchumba or Kiplangat or cherono or name it exist in all kalenjin. Kalenjin religion the same. Kalenjin culture the same. Kalenjin rites of passages the same. Name it - all kalenjin sub tribes are very similar.

You got to Kalenjin clans - they are almost common in all sub-tribes. For example, Talai clan exist in Pokot, Nandi, Tugen, Kipsigis, name it - and all nearly have the same totem or animal - Lion. The clans indicate common lineage...

There is no denying Kalenjin sub tribe have had difference based on intermarriages with other tribes - Kipsigis for example have some gusii/maasia/okiek blood...Nandi has luhya and maasai blood...Pokot has lots of turkana and maasai blood..all these things influence the language...kipsigis of Bomet has some gusii language influence....same way Pokot has turkana influence.

I think you are intentionally avoiding the main argument. It doesn't matter Meru having 9 subtribes actually it could have even 50 the FACT is that they are all MUTUALLY intelligible. And when you bring Kambas,Kikuyu,Embus,Kirinyaga name them the intelligibility between these languages is 70% at the minimum all across this is a linguistic fact furthermore they constitute a language continuum that lacks in other groupings like baluhya mijikenda,kalenjin.You have stated marakwet pokot are about 50% intelligible with Nandi-Kipsigis. So this clearly means easily Kikuyu,Kamba,Meru,Embu,kirinyaga,mbeere can be easily be constituted in one Tribe going by the definitions that constituted Kalenjin,Miji kenda and Luhya simply on the basis of them having a superior percentage of intelligibility alone even without pulling other obvious factors. Tell me am wrong on this very simple FACT??
Its clear pundit you have a layman understanding of linguistics you are really struggling to explain simple point s. But I guess even Mr. know it all has his limits

So there is no kinship ties among Meru and Kikuyu and also names are lacking between both? You sound like Abiy Ahmed himself. Pundit i think you going bonkers nowadays bana. I saw you say Kalenjin are even Nilo-Cushitic(Lunacy )
All mountain kabilas have some level of kinship ties and share again like 80% of names but not all. Are you saying all kalenjin kabilas share all names?
Abdi Pundit even among speakers of a same language differences exit in names for example Kikuyu there are names typical of Nyeri but not Kiambu and viceversa in kirinyaga,Muranga and so on am I wrong???. Same to Meru ,kamba even among English speakers they will tell you that a specific name is from a specific region And in spain france etc
Your points are invalid and you hereby dismissed concentrate on  mathematics and numbers otherwise hapa nitakupiga kama mburukenge.
And to leave you with just a tiny of names shared across mountain include ,karimi,murimi,gitonga,muchiri,kobia,mugambi,munene,kinyua,kiambi,mukami,muthoni,wanja,Njuki,muthomi,muriuki,kariuki The names are hundreds.
Mark you some names are so common among the kabilas unless you chcek where someone was born you will never tell if they are Meru kikuyu,embu or kamba.

[RV Pundit]

The GEMA is a political association - the tribal identity is tenuous.
Yes Kalenjin is nilo-cushitic or nilo-hamitic - there is enough evidence from language, dna,history - to back that.
This is not something new - this something that researchers noticed as early 18th century.
Kalenjin language was controversially identified as nilotic by Greenbag (American-Jewish scholar)- but other linguistist disagree.
Half Kalenjin root words are Nilotic. Half of them cushitic.
For example Tree in Kalenjin and Somali is Ketit. Rain in kalenjin and Somali is rop. Goat in kalenjin and Somali is artet.
Nilo-cushitic include Kalenjin - and to some extent Maasai, Turkanas and Samburus.

So there is no kinship ties among Meru and Kikuyu and also names are lacking between both? You sound like Abiy Ahmed himself. Pundit i think you going bonkers nowadays bana. I saw you say Kalenjin are even Nilo-Cushitic(Lunacy )
All mountain kabilas have some level of kinship ties and share again like 80% of names but not all. Are you saying all kalenjin kabilas share all names?
Abdi Pundit even among speakers of a same language differences exit in names for example Kikuyu there are names typical of Nyeri but not Kiambu and viceversa in kirinyaga,Muranga and so on am I wrong???. Same to Meru ,kamba even among English speakers they will tell you that a specific name is from a specific region in spain france etc
Your points are invalid and you hereby dismissed concentrate on  mathematics and numbers otherwise hapa nitakupiga kama mburukenge.
And to leave you with just a tiny of names shared across mountain include ,karimi,murimi,gitonga,muchiri,kobia,mugambi,munene,kinyua,kiambi,mukami,muthoni,wanja,Njuki,muthomi,muriuki,kariuki The names are hundreds.
Mark you some names are so common among the kabilas unless you chcek where someone was born you will never tell if they are Meru kikuyu,embu or kamba.

[Njuri Ncheke]

The GEMA is a political association - the tribal identity is tenuous.
Yes Kalenjin is nilo-cushitic or nilo-hamitic - there is enough evidence from language, dna,history - to back that.
This is not something new - this something that researchers noticed as early 18th century.
Kalenjin language was controversially identified as nilotic by Greenbag (American-Jewish scholar)- but other linguistist disagree.
Half Kalenjin root words are Nilotic. Half of them cushitic.
For example Tree in Kalenjin and Somali is Ketit. Rain in kalenjin and Somali is rop. Goat in kalenjin and Somali is artet.
Nilo-cushitic include Kalenjin - and to some extent Maasai, Turkanas and Samburus.

So there is no kinship ties among Meru and Kikuyu and also names are lacking between both? You sound like Abiy Ahmed himself. Pundit i think you going bonkers nowadays bana. I saw you say Kalenjin are even Nilo-Cushitic(Lunacy )
All mountain kabilas have some level of kinship ties and share again like 80% of names but not all. Are you saying all kalenjin kabilas share all names?
Abdi Pundit even among speakers of a same language differences exit in names for example Kikuyu there are names typical of Nyeri but not Kiambu and viceversa in kirinyaga,Muranga and so on am I wrong???. Same to Meru ,kamba even among English speakers they will tell you that a specific name is from a specific region in spain france etc
Your points are invalid and you hereby dismissed concentrate on  mathematics and numbers otherwise hapa nitakupiga kama mburukenge.
And to leave you with just a tiny of names shared across mountain include ,karimi,murimi,gitonga,muchiri,kobia,mugambi,munene,kinyua,kiambi,mukami,muthoni,wanja,Njuki,muthomi,muriuki,kariuki The names are hundreds.
Mark you some names are so common among the kabilas unless you chcek where someone was born you will never tell if they are Meru kikuyu,embu or kamba.

As usual avoiding main topic and good at beating around the bush. Why don't you answer me on the names and kinship issue that I answered you on before moving the goal post again.

[RV Pundit]

What was name of Meru, Kikuyu, Kamba and Embu in the old days when they were one. I dont deny they are closely related. But It also tenous to call them one tribe.

As usual avoiding main topic and good at beating around the bush. Why don't you answer me on the names and kinship issue that I answered you on before moving the goal post again.

[Njuri Ncheke]

What was name of Meru, Kikuyu, Kamba and Embu in the old days when they were one. I dont deny they are closely related. But It also tenous to call them one tribe.

As usual avoiding main topic and good at beating around the bush. Why don't you answer me on the names and kinship issue that I answered you on before moving the goal post again.

Asante sana to close this topic once and for all. THAGICU that was the common name for kikuyu kamba tigania cuka tharaka mwimbi igoji mbeere embu kirinyaga ndia etc people. That was our mother tribe. The current tribal names are maybe 150-200 years old.

https://discover.hubpages.com/education/Who-were-the-ancient-Thagichu-people-in-Kenya

Read below Kikuyu Meru were same known as Thagicu and split into 2 different groups.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Kikuyu_People/

Pundit I have treasure troves to reinforce my arguments but lack the time and patient you have to post them.

https://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Kikuyu-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

Kubali yaishe brother hapa you cornered kama Abiy na Gatheca

[RV Pundit]

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[RV Heavy Hitter!]

What was name of Meru, Kikuyu, Kamba and Embu in the old days when they were one. I dont deny they are closely related. But It also tenous to call them one tribe.

As usual avoiding main topic and good at beating around the bush. Why don't you answer me on the names and kinship issue that I answered you on before moving the goal post again.

Asante sana to close this topic once and for all. THAGICU that was the common name for kikuyu kamba tigania cuka tharaka mwimbi igoji mbeere embu kirinyaga ndia etc people. That was our mother tribe. The current tribal names are maybe 150-200 years old.

https://discover.hubpages.com/education/Who-were-the-ancient-Thagichu-people-in-Kenya

Read below Kikuyu Meru were same known as Thagicu and split into 2 different groups.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Kikuyu_People/

Pundit I have treasure troves to reinforce my arguments but lack the time and patient you have to post them.

https://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Kikuyu-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

Kubali yaishe brother hapa you cornered kama Abiy na Gatheca

Since the conversation has been going on, I managed to pair a real Nyeri Kikuyu woman and a Meru woman linguistically. I found out that a Meru woman can understand the Kikuyu language by about 30%. On the other hand, Kikuyu woman understands Meru by 5%. There is a possibility a lot of Merus can understand Kikuyu to some minor extent. Still, the Majority of Kikuyu going by this one-on-one experiment don't understand the Meru language, and if they do, it is on a minimal scale. I prefer reality to guesswork.

[RV Heavy Hitter!]

Kalenjin ( at least 4 substribes of Nandi, Kipsigis, Tugen (not Aror), Keiyo) are not only close by language, they have kinship ties, always knew they were sons of one family, and were one people.Kalenjin are more like Kikuyu dialect of Kiambu, Muranga, Kindia, Gichugu, Nyeri....than Meru/Embu.I can tell you btw Nandi and Kipsigis - they similar clans - and I think you cannot intermarry even accross - previously a nandi or kipisigs would move to either land - and settle down.

Language wise - I think btw Nandi and Kipisigs - I saw maybe 1-2 root words are different - to see (ker, Iro) - the rest are similar.

You can tell that Pokot split up earlier from rest of Kalenjin, then followed by marakwet, the rest split up recently, with nandi-kipsigis essentially the same people.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234673223.pdf

I doubt. Is that supported by any linguistic evidence?? You see Kalenjin was created by Moi during the 1950s,at thats same time Merus,Embus were simply was called Kikuyus but now the Bazungu broke it up for political reasons and separated them into Meru land unit etc then the languages were very similar then bazungu used kambas and kikuyus as translators when meeting merus as no merus spoke English back then.
You can say now there us a rift as Kikuyu embu and Meru have developed separately however the basic structure of all those language  is 70,% same. Merus have little problem understanding speech of embu or kikuyu even without intermingling with them go to rural areas in meru they will set their radio on any radio station whether Kikuyu or Meru etc. However Meru is more difficult for a kikuyu to understand straight up without have intermingled.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/places/africa/kenyan-political-geography/meru
I still think Kalenjin is just a polity really not a cohesive tribe in language, culture naming system etc like GEMA.

The table crafted by white folks gave 91% and 85% to Keiyo and Tugen because they did not factor in mini clans/tribes within Tugen and Keiyo. If you take out Arror Tugens and 5% of Keiyos boarderline with Marakwets 100% can be achieved. Lembus Tugens in Eldama Ravine, Keiyos, Nandi, and Kipsigis are about 100% similar except for accents and may be 2 or 5 words. Between Keiyo and Nandi, it is only one word (Vagina). No other word has ever been Identified as different. With Kipsigis, I think Unga and a few other words!

[RV Pundit]

The Mzungu who did Nandi-Kipsigis found 97 percent similarity. When a Kalenjin did comparison - it was 99 percent. There very few different words - one I can recall is Iro/Ker - for to see. Vagina and such - are euphemism words. Accent wise Kipsigis especially from Bomet has Gusii influence (Bantus try to vowelize the ending words - producing a sing-song effect - no bantu word end with a constant almost) - while Nandi, Keiyo and Lembus - are essentially very close.
Pokot, Aror, Northern Keiyo/Marakwet - and Sebie/Sabaot - speak a wierd kalenjin - with lots of turkana and bukusu influence - I get impression they speak like small kids in our place - like they were about to lose the language?

The table crafted by white folks gave 91% and 85% to Keiyo and Tugen because they did not factor in mini clans/tribes within Tugen and Keiyo. If you take out Arror Tugens and 5% of Keiyos boarderline with Marakwets 100% can be achieved. Lembus Tugens in Eldama Ravine, Keiyos, Nandi, and Kipsigis are about 100% similar except for accents and may be 2 or 5 words. Between Keiyo and Nandi, it is only one word (Vagina). No other word has ever been Identified as different. With Kipsigis, I think Unga and a few other words!

[RV Pundit]

Merus or Embu like my wife - can speak Kikuyus (sort of learn it easily and speak it) - for Kalenjin - a kipsigis  -  can speak like Nandi or Keiyo - I dont need to learn Keiyo or Nandi - I just need to sound like them

Since the conversation has been going on, I managed to pair a real Nyeri Kikuyu woman and a Meru woman linguistically. I found out that a Meru woman can understand the Kikuyu language by about 30%. On the other hand, Kikuyu woman understands Meru by 5%. There is a possibility a lot of Merus can understand Kikuyu to some minor extent. Still, the Majority of Kikuyu going by this one-on-one experiment don't understand the Meru language, and if they do, it is on a minimal scale. I prefer reality to guesswork.