NHIF like housing - Uhuru fails

[RV Pundit]

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Too drunkard to lobby Mps. This Agenda 4 gone to the windows

Official data shows over 25.36 million Kenyans are aged 18 years and above, meaning the compulsory contributions would have added at least 16.36 million contributors, nearly tripling NHIF membership.

Rejection of the Bill will see informal workers continue to join the NHIF voluntarily, with monthly contributions set at Sh500.

Only the formal workers will contribute to the Fund mandatorily.

https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/bd/economy/mps-hand-poor-kenyans-nhif-contribution-relief-3513944

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Good! 

Some times their incompetence saves us from their pernicious plans.

Mandatory healthcare is not the way to go.

[RV Pundit]

So it is okay for 16M poor people to stay without any health insurance and be condemned to bad healthcare o. Primary Insurance should be mandatory. NHIF should be for everyone.

The middle class can then acquire secondary insurance of their choice...

And you can argue about that secondary bit...but for me primary healthcare insurance is almost a human right.

Without any health insurance, these already poor people are one major sickness from perpetual never-ending poverty. They would have to sell their cow or land or trees...to get treated. But if they had at least a million cover...they can get treated for almost all diseases in good private and mission hospitals...their cow can get calves and become a good herd...they can sell and educate their kids...and get out of poverty.

And many will escape the vicious poverty cycle if we deal with sickness and other such risk....within a decade or two...like happens in places like China...the number of poor in Kenya will drop from 17m to maybe 2m...

And we can move to Obamacare and such secondary health insurance.

Good! 

Some times their incompetence saves us from their pernicious plans.

Mandatory healthcare is not the way to go.

[Kadudu]

The plan is fantastic, but how will it be implemented? Who will check that all people pay up for the scheme? The chiefs in the villages? This will just be another extortion fee for the local authorities. It reminds me of the colonial head tax.

For many people in Kenya Ksh. 6,000 per year is out of reach. Let NHIF be the way it is. When the econmy grows and recovers, more people will join. Currently the number of contributors has plummeted. Has to do with the state of the economy.

So it is okay for 16M poor people to stay without any health insurance and be condemned to bad healthcare o. Primary Insurance should be mandatory. NHIF should be for everyone.

The middle class can then acquire secondary insurance of their choice...

And you can argue about that secondary bit...but for me primary healthcare insurance is almost a human right.

Without any health insurance, these already poor people are one major sickness from perpetual never-ending poverty. They would have to sell their cow or land or trees...to get treated. But if they had at least a million cover...they can get treated for almost all diseases in good private and mission hospitals...their cow can get calves and become a good herd...they can sell and educate their kids...and get out of poverty.

And many will escape the vicious poverty cycle if we deal with sickness and other such risk....within a decade or two...like happens in places like China...the number of poor in Kenya will drop from 17m to maybe 2m...

And we can move to Obamacare and such secondary health insurance.

[RV Pundit]

We make third party motor vehicle insurance complusory - yet out of 2million cars only 3,000 accidents happen.
We know of these 16 million poor people - majority end up in hospital - at least annually - for a disease that would force them to sell their few assets - and keep them permanently in poverty - they crawl out - they get sick - it back to square one.

We can make it mandatory - and lower the price for poor - to 200-300shs - and we can increase it for the upper class from 1700 to 4000 - and they can reduce their secondary insurance premiums - by the same amount.

So one middle class family - can pay for 7 poor families.

Therefore 2 million formally employed - can should 15m unemployed.

Or the gov simply pays for them using taxes - but determining who is eligble is big task.

One of quickest way is for county gov to stop financing health care - and focus on health insurances - Counties each spend more than a billion - maybe nearly 1/3 of their budget to run poorly stocked and staffed hopsital.

Let public hospital be run independently - let them charge market rate - as long as everyone has primary insurance. From the market rate - they will hire staff and buy medicine - like private or mission hospital. Counties can then offload nurses and doctors from their payroll - and then use the money to give everyone a NHIF cover.

Healthcare has to be THROUGH INSURANCE - because you cannot predict how ad when you get sick.
Give everyone insurance.
Privatize the public healthcare - or at least make them independent.

The plan is fantastic, but how will it be implemented? Who will check that all people pay up for the scheme? The chiefs in the villages? This will just be another extortion fee for the local authorities. It reminds me of the colonial head tax.

For many people in Kenya Ksh. 6,000 per year is out of reach. Let NHIF be the way it is. When the econmy grows and recovers, more people will join. Currently the number of contributors has plummeted. Has to do with the state of the economy.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

So it is okay for 16M poor people to stay without any health insurance and be condemned to bad healthcare o. Primary Insurance should be mandatory. NHIF should be for everyone.

The middle class can then acquire secondary insurance of their choice...

And you can argue about that secondary bit...but for me primary healthcare insurance is almost a human right.

Without any health insurance, these already poor people are one major sickness from perpetual never-ending poverty. They would have to sell their cow or land or trees...to get treated. But if they had at least a million cover...they can get treated for almost all diseases in good private and mission hospitals...their cow can get calves and become a good herd...they can sell and educate their kids...and get out of poverty.

And many will escape the vicious poverty cycle if we deal with sickness and other such risk....within a decade or two...like happens in places like China...the number of poor in Kenya will drop from 17m to maybe 2m...

And we can move to Obamacare and such secondary health insurance.

What is worse than that is extortion. How do you force the 17 million people who are an uninsured to join NHIF when they don't have even regular monthly wage?

NHIF they way it is currently structured is unsustainable. We know NHIF is payroll based.

Healthcare is not a human right. Access to clean water is not a human right. The most fundamental human right is freedom from coercion. Otherwise you have a cascade of so called human rights - right to internet, electricity, highways etc. Which is a big folly!

You could argue the reason for the explosion in healthcare costs around the world has been the introduction of healthcare insurance. The idea of insurance introduces perverse incentives. Insurance's original reason was against catastrophic rare occurrences, it has been abused leading to inflation of basic services.

[RV Pundit]

I think you're mixing - US messed up healthcare and EDUCATION - with many successfully health insurance worldwide.
Of course, it can become very expensive like US - albeit with highest quality too.
Insurance - no insurance - gov will still spend a lot on healthcare - like in Kenya - by doing kamikaze public hospitals that are not fit to be called that.
Or we can modernize - hand over all the public health - to public universities - and make them private - and gain from efficiency and productivity gains from the competition.

Then when it comes to health insurance - there is the basic cover - like NHIF that covers maybe anything up to a million Kshs - and then of course secondary.

So make NHIF mandatory - and let us figure out how to assist the poor get it.

There has to be a mix of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism will create a Darwinian society that is unequal like South Africa. Communism will make everyone poor like North Korea.

So primary health insurance - should be basic, compulsory, or subsidized for the poor. There are things that society will have to COERCE everyone to do - like wearing a mask now.

Secondary insurance and fancy private hospitals - then allow US-style capitalism to go rogue. You have money - get yourself a gold-plated health insurance

What is worse than that is extortion. How do you force the 17 million people who are an uninsured to join NHIF when they don't have even regular monthly wage?

NHIF they way it is currently structured is unsustainable. We know NHIF is payroll based.

Healthcare is not a human right. Access to clean water is not a human right. The most fundamental human right is freedom from coercion. Otherwise you have a cascade of so called human rights - right to internet, electricity, highways etc. Which is a big folly!

You could argue the reason for the explosion in healthcare costs around the world has been the introduction of healthcare insurance. The idea of insurance introduces perverse incentives. Insurance's original reason was against catastrophic rare occurrences, it has been abused leading to inflation of basic services.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

I think you're mixing - US messed up healthcare and EDUCATION - with many successfully health insurance worldwide.
Of course, it can become very expensive like US - albeit with highest quality too.
Insurance - no insurance - gov will still spend a lot on healthcare - like in Kenya - by doing kamikaze public hospitals that are not fit to be called that.
Or we can modernize - hand over all the public health - to public universities - and make them private - and gain from efficiency and productivity gains from the competition.

Then when it comes to health insurance - there is the basic cover - like NHIF that covers maybe anything up to a million Kshs - and then of course secondary.

So make NHIF mandatory - and let us figure out how to assist the poor get it.

There has to be a mix of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism will create a Darwinian society that is unequal like South Africa. Communism will make everyone poor like North Korea.

So primary health insurance - should be basic, compulsory, or subsidized for the poor. There are things that society will have to COERCE everyone to do - like wearing a mask now.

Secondary insurance and fancy private hospitals - then allow US-style capitalism to go rogue. You have money - get yourself a gold-plated health insurance

Let us not get bogged down in the weeds. How will people who don't know where their next meal will come from be able to pay into NHIF?

Swali fupi.

[audacityofhope]

There are people on this forum who were hospitalized for Covid-19 but they are not telling us whether or not their bills were paid for by their insurance.
AAR is not covering covid and so is the case with many other premium bima companies. With a bill of 2M should you go down and at the same time be overweight you will get into ICU. It is not just the poor who would sell "their cows", even the middle class hit with such a bill will also face destitution. This is the story of USA... As a super power they have dwelt on this issue and still a solution remains elusive even after Obamacare. Yet a few fellows appointed to an NHIF board think there is a quick fix - force every adult in a shithole country to make compulsory contributions??? Shenzi sana!

NHS has weathered so much criticism but Britain has been around centuries... at some point it would do the impossible... NHS does give access intensive care treatment free of charge. In 9 years Jubilee and its offshoot UDA has given new meaning to the word mediocrity....

[RV Pundit]

That is why we have this conversation. Counties should pay for the poor, the old, the disabled, the orphans, and the vulnerable.

Alternatively - we can have an NHIF levy - on top of the MPESA - transaction fee. There are at least 2.5B mpesa transactions annually.

NHIF with about 10M is doing 60B. To cover every adult at 25M...it needs 150B. The much we spent on health care - which is better spent on NHS

Let us not get bogged down in the weeds. How will people who don't know where their next meal will come from be able to pay into NHIF?

Swali fupi.

[audacityofhope]

Pundit posts here like he is not aware that the government itself is so desperate for cash, it is taxing safaricom and all telcos excise duty on their products and doing the same on LOANS and talking of poor people that includes excise duty on FULIZA. Now on top of these you NHIF levy on mpesa transactions?? Don't you think something is going to give to a populace already taxed to a limit?
You are not good at thinking on your feet are you? Go sleep, you might come up with less lubbish tomorrow.

That is why we have this conversation. Counties should pay for the poor, the old, the disabled, the orphans, and the vulnerable.

Alternatively - we can have an NHIF levy - on top of the MPESA - transaction fee. There are at least 2.5B mpesa transactions annually.

NHIF with about 10M is doing 60B. To cover every adult at 25M...it needs 150B.

Let us not get bogged down in the weeds. How will people who don't know where their next meal will come from be able to pay into NHIF?

Swali fupi.

[RV Pundit]

Every cover has a limit. We are talking basic primary cover for everyone like NHS. NHIF should provide basic reasonable cover. Nobody has issue with NHIC coverage - it appears sufficient. Not extravagant. Good mission or private hospital - you're good.

As for the middle class - well they won't become poor for coughing 2m more. They are already out of the poverty circle.

For me - I spent very little on COVID- because I was on oxygen - less than 200k - I paid cash - and I get reimbursed - by my international insurers. That is middle class problem - sometimes I keep kenya insurance as primary insurance - and then use it for co-pay/deductible.

For health insurance to work - you need primary insurance - for me - my deductible is 6,000usd - so even NHIF can cover me - and I submit as deductible -- and then beyond 6,000usd - my secondary insurance kicks in.

In kenya there is no such system - primary insurance NHIF - behave like AAR or Resolution health.

It should be you max out NHIF - and then start AAR.

There are people on this forum who were hospitalized for Covid-19 but they are not telling us whether or not their bills were paid for by their insurance.
AAR is not covering covid and so is the case with many other premium bima companies. With a bill of 2M should you go down and at the same time be overweight you will get into ICU. It is not just the poor who would sell "their cows", even the middle class hit with such a bill will also face destitution. This is the story of USA... As a super power they have dwelt on this issue and still a solution remains elusive even after Obamacare. Yet a few fellows appointed to an NHIF board think there is a quick fix - force every adult in a shithole country to make compulsory contributions??? Shenzi sana!

NHS has weathered so much criticism but Britain has been around centuries... at some point it would do the impossible... NHS does give access intensive care treatment free of charge. In 9 years Jubilee and its offshoot UDA has given new meaning to the word mediocrity....

[RV Pundit]

I give many suggestions. The zero-cost option. Privatize all hospitals in Bungoma like Tranzoia governor has started. Make them independent. Then stop funding them. Use the money to give every Bungoma resident an NHIF cover. Bungoma has 2M residents - on average of 6 people per household - we are talking about 300,000 households. Give each 500 per month or 6000 per annum.

Annual Wangamati needs 1.8B to give every Bungoma resident NHIF cover.

Then reduce the health budget by 1.8B - most counties normally target to collect 500-1B from user fees (50 bob paid) - so you see the gap is very small.

Bungoma residents can then choose to go  Lumboka Memorial or Bungoma District Hospital.

Bungoma 2021 budget for health -6    Health    3,118,411,022 (recurrent)     256,088,089 (dev)     3,374,499,111 (total). Half the budget is all you need - and then rest of the money - you can use to subsidize construction of NEW hospitals.....otherwise hand the rest to KIBABII university or independent hospitals boards.

You elected an actuary but like anybody infected with Odingaism - he has totally lost the plot.  Ni kukunywa busaa tu and dancing to Rhumba - and marrying many wifes- Omwami

Ruto will bring back LUSAKA - and FIX THESE BASIC THINGS

Wangamati like you is just usual OMWAMI - BIG TALK - NO ACTION.

Mukhisa Kituyi style - halafu - next unapata ni BUSAA and POVERTY NDIO IMEKITI.

Bukusu mutu bure kabisa - my nandi friend - use to tell me his father occasionally whip them

At least Maragoli is very hardworking - Bukusu ni kama jaluo tu - MAKELELE PRIDE and ZERO DEVELOPMENT -  even basic things like fencing homestead hawezi - even improving their cows - from old ZEBUS - HAWEZI

Kikuyu ndio imecolonize Bungoma, Kanduyi and Chwele all the way to Kiminini - even Matatus or Lorries - it either Nandi or Kikuyu. Or Mama HaRRIS and few arabs-indians. Bure kabisa. Chwele they wait for Mt elgon food to come down. Bure

Mtu bladfackin

Pundit posts here like he is not aware that the government itself is so desperate for cash, it is taxing safaricom and all telcos excise duty on their products and doing the same on LOANS. Now you NHIF levy on mpesa transactions. Don't you think something is going to give to a population already taxed to a limit?
You are not good at thinking on your feet are you? Go sleep, you might come up with less lubbish tomorrow.

[Nowayhaha]

RV , You do very well in History and Politics........Ni hayo tuu

[RV Pundit]

I dont pretend to know; I am here to learn; your passive-aggressive behavior is off-putting;I have learnt all laws, economics, name it from these streets; I am actually excellent in software engineering

RV , You do very well in History and Politics........Ni hayo tuu

[Nowayhaha]

Giving you accolade or what they say Roses while you are alive.
Now as you say your thinking has been imfluenced by programming.

I dont pretend to know; I am here to learn; your passive-aggressive behavior is off-putting;I have learnt all laws, economics, name it from these streets; I am actually excellent in software engineering

RV , You do very well in History and Politics........Ni hayo tuu

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

There are people on this forum who were hospitalized for Covid-19 but they are not telling us whether or not their bills were paid for by their insurance.
AAR is not covering covid and so is the case with many other premium bima companies. With a bill of 2M should you go down and at the same time be overweight you will get into ICU. It is not just the poor who would sell "their cows", even the middle class hit with such a bill will also face destitution. This is the story of USA... As a super power they have dwelt on this issue and still a solution remains elusive even after Obamacare. Yet a few fellows appointed to an NHIF board think there is a quick fix - force every adult in a shithole country to make compulsory contributions??? Shenzi sana!

NHS has weathered so much criticism but Britain has been around centuries... at some point it would do the impossible... NHS does give access intensive care treatment free of charge. In 9 years Jubilee and its offshoot UDA has given new meaning to the word mediocrity....

Pundit posts here like he is not aware that the government itself is so desperate for cash, it is taxing safaricom and all telcos excise duty on their products and doing the same on LOANS and talking of poor people that includes excise duty on FULIZA. Now on top of these you NHIF levy on mpesa transactions?? Don't you think something is going to give to a populace already taxed to a limit?
You are not good at thinking on your feet are you? Go sleep, you might come up with less lubbish tomorrow.

A1+ posting. Accurate, brief and concise.

Audacity, we kweli ni bingwa wa mjadala

Pundit reminds one of Marie Antoinette, he is so out of touch.

Africa needs less government programs otherwise taxation will suffocate all business.

[RV Pundit]

Tell us the last time you offered any practical solution except useless unrealistic polemics - mostly regurgiating developed world philosophies.

Kenya issues will be solve through original thinking; appropriately technology; homegrown solutions.

There is nothing to copy-paste. We need solutions like M-pesa. We got a problem - we find solutions. The best of the worse - it doesnt matter - it better than nothing.

A1+ posting. Accurate, brief and concise.

Audacity, we kweli ni bingwa wa mjadala

Pundit reminds one of Marie Antoinette, he is so out of touch.

Africa needs less government programs otherwise taxation will suffocate all business.

[audacityofhope]

There are people on this forum who were hospitalized for Covid-19 but they are not telling us whether or not their bills were paid for by their insurance.
AAR is not covering covid and so is the case with many other premium bima companies. With a bill of 2M should you go down and at the same time be overweight you will get into ICU. It is not just the poor who would sell "their cows", even the middle class hit with such a bill will also face destitution. This is the story of USA... As a super power they have dwelt on this issue and still a solution remains elusive even after Obamacare. Yet a few fellows appointed to an NHIF board think there is a quick fix - force every adult in a shithole country to make compulsory contributions??? Shenzi sana!

NHS has weathered so much criticism but Britain has been around centuries... at some point it would do the impossible... NHS does give access intensive care treatment free of charge. In 9 years Jubilee and its offshoot UDA has given new meaning to the word mediocrity....

Pundit posts here like he is not aware that the government itself is so desperate for cash, it is taxing safaricom and all telcos excise duty on their products and doing the same on LOANS and talking of poor people that includes excise duty on FULIZA. Now on top of these you NHIF levy on mpesa transactions?? Don't you think something is going to give to a populace already taxed to a limit?
You are not good at thinking on your feet are you? Go sleep, you might come up with less lubbish tomorrow.

A1+ posting. Accurate, brief and concise.

Audacity, we kweli ni bingwa wa mjadala

Pundit reminds one of Marie Antoinette, he is so out of touch.

Africa needs less government programs otherwise taxation will suffocate all business.

There is some history that has slipped "RV and Nowayhaha". When Fuliza was introduced, Safaricom explained that information provided by their database showed that 58% - yes a whooping 58% of transactions - initiated by Mpesa users did NOT complete because they had insufficient funds in their Mpesa wallet!
By introducing Fuliza, safaricom was coming to their aid in return for a 1% interest charge. Pundit before engaging his medulla Oblangata thinks government should still target Mpesa transactions on NHIF's behalf, when clearly more than half of those transactions have had to be "borrowed". Eish!
Several times I want to pay or send money to an individual via mpesa only for them to say NO, they have a fuliza so "usitume huko"

@Arcadian, you are right about one thing: Pundit and Marie Antoinette are in the same WhatsApp group ....

[RV Pundit]

Again mpesa complete more than 100B dollars transactions.Its one option.Fuel levy collects 2.6B dollars.In any case we already have the money that at health sector...counties spend so much on health...that would be enough to convert it to NHS or NHIF.

This idea of public hospitals only exists in Africa.

We should have NHIF run or accrediated  hospitals