Engineering courses suspended in 22 Kenyan public universities

[mya88]

Are kenyan graduate being rejected in postgrad outside this country. No.

No they are not being rejected, however they are having to take up several courses before being admitted into core graduate classess because of something....you are a bit dfensive about this....I will wait to hear more.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

negro, what did you just say? 

MOON Ki,

That may be true.  Yet when you look at Kenya's needs.  They need engineers to work on elementary civil projects.  A road here, an irrigation canal there, a borehole yonder etc. Things that the Romans did just fine millennia ago without high-tech universities.  Some of whose works are still standing. They may also need factory and power plant managers etc. 

While they may be equipped like a 60s college in the west, I am thinking Kenya barely uses a fraction of what its engineering graduates should be capable of.  Most of the electronics engineers I personally know in Kenya wound up in the telecoms side of IT as mentioned elsewhere...short of leaving the country, they are not going to be designing microcontrollers in that locale for sometime.

A need for more chemical engineers is on the horizon once oil exploitation begins.  These people are not going to be building space stations, calculating orbital insertion and docking and what have you. 

Kenya just needs folks with appropriate technology.  A fellow that can light up a village or two.  Design a water system for a village..etc etc.  Like these guys that win CNN awards but on an industrial scale.

To be fair, without knowing what the EBK is complaining about, I can't make any meaningful critique on that subject.

They need more diploma level cadres.  I am inclined to believe EBK is saying this without as much clarity. 

Otherwise, outside of the very latest gadgets, the engineer trained in a classroom in Nairobi has access to the same theoretical knowledge entirely in the public domain as one in a technical institute in Germany or anywhere else. 

He may be disadvantaged from a practical exposure point of view. 

[MOON Ki]

Who is saying our education standards are sub-par?. When COMMISSION OF HIGHER EDUCATION says so...i will accept them. Engineer Board to me is more a proffesional body with their own exams. Are kenyan graduate being rejected in postgrad outside this country. No.

I don't think that is a good "test".   Consider the USA, where you live.    Admissions may look at the subjects studied and the grades attained, but in order to "normalize" between graduates of Podunk University and graduates of Real University, it is the GREs that really matter.   

But the basic GREs are generic and do not necessarily test what one studied at the undergrad level; so a maths graduate seeking entry into a maths program can have exactly the same scores as an engineering graduate seek entry into an engineering program.   There are "advanced-subject" GREs, but they do not include any type of engineering.

I think a better "test" would be how much effort and time it takes to pass the examinations required for certification as a professional engineer in those other countries.

That said, I am puzzled by the level of involvement by EBK.   In the "advanced" countries, professional bodies do get involved in providing curriculum input and in accreditation processes, but it is a purely voluntary affair for universities, which go through with them because it helps sell their programs and they produce graduates capable of passing the professional exams and do quality work.   

[mya88]

I don't think that is a good "test".   Consider the USA, where you live.    Admissions may look at the subjects studied and the grades attained, but in order to "normalize" between graduates of Podunk University and graduates of Real University, it is the GREs that really matter.   

But the basic GREs are generic and do not necessarily test what one studied at the undergrad level; so a maths graduate seeking entry into a maths program can have exactly the same scores as an engineering graduate seek entry into an engineering program.   There are "advanced-subject" GREs, but they do not include any type of engineering.
   

That said, I am puzzled by the level of involvement by EBK.   In the "advanced" countries, professional bodies do get involved in providing curriculum input and in accreditation processes, but it is a purely voluntary affair for universities, which go through with them because it helps sell their programs and they produce graduates capable of passing the professional exams and do quality work.

I am suprised by this MK. Professional bodies have always been involved in higher learning that is now new to the Kenyan situation. consider this:

"The U.S. Department of Education (DOE) does not accredit institutions; rather, it determines which accrediting agencies receive recognition by the Department. This means that the standards of the accrediting agencies are up to par to the standards of the DOE. The DOE limits its official recognition to accrediting agencies that endorse schools that need the recognition to participate in federal programs, such as the Federal Student Financial Aid Program

Specialized or programmatic accreditation evaluates particular schools or programs within an institution. Specialized accreditation is often associated with national professional associations such as those for engineering, medicine, and law, or with specific disciplines such as business, teacher education, and nursing."

The matter has been worsened by the rapid expansion of universities, with their constituent colleges fast becoming full universities even without the necessary staff and equipment. This is what has forced EBK to weigh in in a bid to ensure professionalism

[MOON Ki]

I was restricting myself to engineering.    There could be top-notch/elite US engineering schools that do not require the GRE for admission to grad school, but, off the top of my head, I can't imagine  any.    Can you provide a list?

(Also, what is your field and where did you get your first degree?)

I am suprised by this MK. Professional bodies have always been involved in higher learning that is now new to the Kenyan situation. consider this:

"The U.S. Department of Education (DOE) does not accredit institutions; rather, it determines which accrediting agencies receive recognition by the Department. This means that the standards of the accrediting agencies are up to par to the standards of the DOE. The DOE limits its official recognition to accrediting agencies that endorse schools that need the recognition to participate in federal programs, such as the Federal Student Financial Aid Program

Once again, my focus is on the accreditation of engineering programs.    Also, nowhere did I suggest that professional bodies in the USA (or anywhere else) do not get involved in what is studied in universities.   Rather, my comment was about the manner in which they get involved and to what extent.   

Please note that I never suggested that DOE accredits anybody; rather, I referred to "professional organizations".    Let us consider electrical engineering, for example.   In the USA, the relevant bodies are ABET and IEEE.   You can read about those here:

http://www.abet.org/accreditation/

http://www.ieee.org/education_careers/education/accreditation/index.html

If you read through all that, the point I was trying to make is quite clear: the accreditation of particular program is a process that universities get into voluntarily; it is not the type of thing that EBK is trying to impose.      The IEEE webpage puts that right upfront:

"Accreditation is the voluntary, peer review process utilized by higher education institutions and industry practitioners to evaluate academic degree programs."

and ABET devotes pages into trying to sell what they do, i.e. why accreditation matters.   ABET is especially important, in the USA and elsewhere, and this example page indicates why:

http://www.engr.ncsu.edu/academics/undergrad/profengr/

(I picked it because it is a good example of a university program preparing its students to pass the professional exams.)

The point, however, is this: ABET can (and it sometimes does) refuse to accredit degree programs; and it can (and frequently does)  offer advice on curriculum.   What it cannot do, and never does, is insist that certain programs be suspended or shut-down, which, as I understand it, is what EBK has somehow managed to do.   

Now, don't get me wrong.   I appreciate and agree with your concerns that started this thread.   As far as I can tell, the quality of university education in Kenya has largely gone to the dogs---even at UoN.    I am all for EBK getting involved in the education of engineers.   What I have an "issue" with is the manner of their involvement (as it appears to be the case).   The autonomy of universities is something that needs to be handled "delicately", and places like Kenya provide numerous examples for the "why".

So, when you write

This is how most public universities started engineering courses even without enough lecturers or qualified ones. The matter has been worsened by the rapid expansion of universities, with their constituent colleges fast becoming full universities even without the necessary staff and equipment. This is what has forced EBK to weigh in in a bid to ensure professionalism

I fully agree, and some my earlier statements will confirm that.   I also agree that EBK should---and, indeed, must---weigh in.    What I have doubts about is the manner of the "weighing in".   Advice on what is to be studied?   TICK!   Refusal to register sub-standard "engineers"?  TICK!  But how it manages to get programs suspended/shut-down is another matter.   Are there similar examples ("historical" otherwise in the USA?)

[MOON Ki]

Mya88, upon reflection:

Perhaps this will clarify my view of EBK's role.  It should say

* We have accredited this or that program (if that is within their remit) but not this or other one.

* We will accredit this or that program (same assumptions as above) if it meets this or the other standard.

* Students who don't graduate from accredited programs will have problems with our standards.

and leave it at that.   "Natural selection" will then do the rest. 

[bittertruth]

The price is high for students who join unaccredited programmes in universities, not just in Kenya but also in other countries. This means such graduates cannot develop successful careers in engineering since they cannot practice as professional cadres.

I think ERB is doing a good job. Its ideal to have a watchdog because our universities are enhancing mediocrity by developing sub-standard degrees which amount to cheating the public that they were offering engineering degrees, while offering technician based courses.

Like for instance some core courses like digital electronics, Engineering Maths, circuit theory etc. were taught by a B. ED Lectures. That doesn't add up at all.

[mya88]

http://ainsleydiduca.com/grad-schools-dont-require-gre/#Eng

[mya88]

The price is high for students who join unaccredited programmes in universities, not just in Kenya but also in other countries. This means such graduates cannot develop successful careers in engineering since they cannot practice as professional cadres.

I think ERB is doing a good job. Its ideal to have a watchdog because our universities are enhancing mediocrity by developing sub-standard degrees which amount to cheating the public that they were offering engineering degrees, while offering technician based courses.

Like for instance some core courses like digital electronics, Engineering Maths, circuit theory etc. were taught by a B. ED Lectures. That doesn't add up at all.

[MOON Ki]

http://ainsleydiduca.com/grad-schools-dont-require-gre/#Eng

Mya88: Nowhere did I claim expertise in engineering.    Thanks for the list; as I said, the related statement was made "off the top of my head".

[Georgesoros]

Are these the type of engineers they are talking about?
Are kenyan buildings safe?
http://www.nation.co.ke/counties/storey-building-collapses-at-night/-/1107872/2525664/-/p7rmmoz/-/index.html

[mya88]

Are these the type of engineers they are talking about?
Are kenyan buildings safe?
http://www.nation.co.ke/counties/storey-building-collapses-at-night/-/1107872/2525664/-/p7rmmoz/-/index.html

Five vehicles were extensively damaged when a four-storey building under construction collapsed in Skuta, Nyeri Town.

The building crumbled around 3.30am Monday, causing a scare among residents. No one was injured.

County Executive in charge of Lands and Infrastructure Development John Maina said the building was in the final stages of construction.

Mr Maina said the county government approved the construction and officials have been monitoring it at every stage.

He ordered an immediate investigation into the incident to establish why the unfinished house went down

[Georgesoros]

Mya
Agreed. Imagine we have to frequent this buildings in one way or another!!!
It sends chills down my spine...

[gout]

given the transition rates from nursery to primary school to secondary school and to colleges we should worry more about access ...more access

what qualifications do you need to take a bribe from cow boy contractors??