Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 30, 2014, 07:36:25 PM
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On that day. October 8th, 2014. Being physically present is the most extra-ordinary public duty for kamwana.
They refuse to believe that kamwana planned to head the association of dictators in Kampala on a day his trial would otherwise have been in progress.
http://icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1842118.pdf (http://icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1842118.pdf)
Kuniko Ozaki's dissent is cosmetic. Largely about the video-link http://icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1842119.pdf (http://icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1842119.pdf).
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He he his excellency the accused.
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This is a blow to the propaganda machine that has been peddling stupidities such as Obama having "agreed to end the case"
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This is a blow to the propaganda machine that has been peddling stupidities such as Obama having "agreed to end the case"
kamwana enjoys the unwavering loyalty of a gullibe and impressionable constituency. The propaganda fizzles out on the bench.
I am not sure if Mr. Kay is thinking with clarity when he lies to the court that this meeting of autocrats that has been planned for Kampala supersedes and was done in total ignorance of kamwana's requirement to be in court.
One would think he has forgotten that the ICC predates kamwana's own presidency legitimate or otherwise.
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I will make time and watch the negro make history
Just aksin, apart from death and open defiance, what else can save him from appearance?
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There are many ways of skinning a cat, even more of spreading muchene
This is a blow to the propaganda machine that has been peddling stupidities such as Obama having "agreed to end the case"
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I will make time and watch the negro make history
Just aksin, apart from death and open defiance, what else can save him from appearance?
One hopes that no major national emergency that dwarfs westgate happens in the intervening period.
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Terminator:
Kay is not "lying". A lawyer will sometimes find it convenient to just take whatever the client offers and not ask too much. That way, they can assure the court that it is all "the complete and total truth ... to the best of my knowledge". And that too is why even when a person is obviously as guilty as sin, the lawyer can say that "I have talked to him at length, and, from everything I know, he is absolutely innocent".
Kay is no idiot, although his application was so lame that, contrary to what people think, Bensouda did not actually oppose it. But it was inevitable that Uhuru would try, and don't forget that Kay charges by the "billable hour". A QC, highly regarded in such law ... estimate the billable-hour rate. And don't forget that in order to have Kay ready to respond quickly, Uhuru is paying a hefty chunk of what you Americans call a "retainer fee". And actually that's not even the half of it.
Kay is not the problem, Githu Muigai is:
The partial dissent in the decision (read the Annex) makes a great deal of sense, and, ordinarily most folks would agree with that. I certainly do. The real problem is that the Kenyan AG has really poisoned the atmosphere, continually performing as though the judges were a bunch of stupid kids. What does one expect when the judges are asked, essentially, to use "discretionary" power?
So will The Prince show up? I don't know. But my guess is that, unless he can come up with a "national emergency", he will. The local riff-raff (including the AU) will no doubt tell him to ignore the directive; but I'm certain that Kay will strongly advise him to show up, and he would be a fool to ignore such advice.
Kay knew quite well that his lame, half-baked request (take a look at it!) would be rejected. And the judges knew that (a) he would make the request and (b) they would reject it. And Kay knew that they knew. All that was obvious. What is also obvious is that the judges have already considered what actions they will take if Uhuru (minus a "national emergency") defies them. And Kay too knows that. So do we all, if we get beyond AU banana-republic noises and look at the chess-game.
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It is shameful when Uhuru lies that he had already scheduled a meeting on the 8th. Yet he knew for over 6 months that his trial would start in The Hague on that date. Such stupid excuses take away whatever credibility he may still command as a person.
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Reminder to skirt lifters: :)
http://www.kenyan-post.com/2014/09/uhuru-is-not-president-before-icc-he-is.html
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Reminder to skirt lifters: :)
http://www.kenyan-post.com/2014/09/uhuru-is-not-president-before-icc-he-is.html
Poor girl! The Whackos are going to target her for the choicest matusi. She should have soothed their egos by saying Uhuru will be treated as a Head of State and will sit alongside the judges.
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When is Baraza going to Vague?
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When is Baraza going to Vague?
I thought you are the "expert" on that? My mistake
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They Saitoti-ed him according to some credible word on the ground
When is Baraza going to Vague?
I thought you are the "expert" on that? My mistake
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They Saitoti-ed him according to some credible word on the ground
If there had been any "Scientific Exorcism" I would have heard of it. I think the guy is alive and well, being used as a bargaining chip to keep WSR on good behaviour - according to others.
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Once he exhaust his constitutional rights in kenya. ICC must now have realized that warrants of arrest are great incentive to delay or dodge justice. They should have summoned Baraza and he would be in ICC now.
When is Baraza going to Vague?
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Once he exhaust his constitutional rights in kenya. ICC must now have realized that warrants of arrest are great incentive to delay or dodge justice. They should have summoned Baraza and he would be in ICC now.
My guess is that the warrant was used more as a threat for him to spill the beans rather than and end in itself. Silly really, if you look at it closely. Confrontation where you lack your own dedicated police or military force is counter-productive. I learned years ago to threaten local staff (in African countries) with arrest but never go ahead and do it.
The empty threat combined with pleas to cooperate can tell you where all the supplies are stored awaiting a buyer. Go to the police and the suspect cuts in the police and you are cut loose. The ICC has a lot to learn about Africa.
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Is that so? As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.
In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with. All 4 were arrested within a few weeks. One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over. Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over. As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx
There seems to be the mistaken belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans". There also seems to be the equally mistaken belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends. Far from it. Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming. Barasa is the "prototype", and the OTP will not let him the hook; they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision. Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.
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Think ???
Negro has passed from death to life
Termie gave up burying him before he died. Take cue
If there had been any "Scientific Exorcism" I would have heard of it. I think the guy is alive and well, being used as a bargaining chip to keep WSR on good behaviour - according to others.
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Think ???
Negro has passed from death to life
Termie gave up burying him before he died. Take cue
If there had been any "Scientific Exorcism" I would have heard of it. I think the guy is alive and well, being used as a bargaining chip to keep WSR on good behaviour - according to others.
Termie gave up on the notion that he would be in danger when already dead and burried. Minor clarification.
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Is that so, Omollo? As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.
In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with. All 4 were arrested within a few weeks. One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over. Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over. As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx
There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans". There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends. Far from it. Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming. Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision. Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.
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Do you think he is being 'protected' from appearance by the powers that be?
Is that so, Omollo? As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.
In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with. All 4 were arrested within a few weeks. One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over. Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over. As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx
There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans". There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends. Far from it. Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming. Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision. Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.
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They've already failed in 2 of the 3 stated objective of warrants. They wanted Baraza arrested quickly so he can stop meddling with witness. That has not happened. Secondly they wanted the arrest to include any seizure of computers/telephones/evidence/etc from Baraza over witness tampering. That too has failed. What is remaining is pre-trial of Baraza once he is finally arrested and handed over to ICC.
I think the idea was to get him out of kenya.....say in UG or Rwanda..where he wouldn't enjoy constitutional rights to challenge his arrest...like he is doing now. That didn't work out.
There is huge difference btw countries..ICC can do all it want in bush country like Congo or dictatorship like UG or Rwanda..but in kenya they've to go thro the motions. Baraza might even eventually disappear to thin air or a country without any extradition deal with ICC...which is about half the countries in the world..including US of A.
Is that so, Omollo? As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.
In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with. All 4 were arrested within a few weeks. One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over. Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over. As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx
There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans". There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends. Far from it. Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming. Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision. Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.
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RV Pundit wrote:
"I think the idea was to get him out of kenya.....say in UG or Rwanda..where he wouldn't enjoy constitutional rights to challenge his arrest...like he is doing now. That didn't work out. There is huge difference btw countries..ICC can do all it want in bush country like Congo or dictatorship like UG or Rwanda..but in kenya"
Bush countries, eh? That's an interesting theory when put against the fact that the four in the Bemba case were arrested in European countries in which they enjoy plenty of legal rights and in fact are right trying to get the ICC to conditionally release them to the supervision of those countries.
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They've already failed in 2 of the 3 stated objective of warrants. They wanted Baraza arrested quickly so he can stop meddling with witness. That has not happened. Secondly they wanted the arrest to include any seizure of computers/telephones/evidence/etc from Baraza over witness tampering. That too has failed. What is remaining is pre-trial of Baraza once he is finally arrested and handed over to ICC.
I think the idea was to get him out of kenya.....say in UG or Rwanda..where he wouldn't enjoy constitutional rights to challenge his arrest...like he is doing now. That didn't work out.
There is huge difference btw countries..ICC can do all it want in bush country like Congo or dictatorship like UG or Rwanda..but in kenya they've to go thro the motions. Baraza might even eventually disappear to thin air or a country without any extradition deal with ICC...which is about half the countries in the world..including US of A.
Is that so, Omollo? As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.
In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with. All 4 were arrested within a few weeks. One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over. Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over. As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx (http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx)
There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans". There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends. Far from it. Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming. Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision. Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.
This is a fallacy repeated over without much thought. The only reason ICC is having issues in Kenya is that it's the only country where they happen to have a government opposed to them.
This would have probably turned out different had kamwana and Muthaura not been on the list of the accused. If they were to target Kagame's son, chances are they would have go to through the same hoops.
It just comes down to government obstructionism.
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Kenya is middle of bush country and europe. Europe and countries with working judicial system would have long dismissed Baraza case on lack of juridisction. In Congo[am assuming it worse than kenya] a gov appointed judge would have rule for the rebel to send on the next flight to ICC. Kenya is queer country where judiciary is seemingly independent but it dogged by huge backlog..and lots of loopholes...that Baraza will exploit fully.
Bush countries, eh? That's an interesting theory when put against the fact that the four in the Bemba case were arrested in European countries in which they enjoy plenty of legal rights and in fact are right trying to get the ICC to conditionally release them to the supervision of those countries.
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That would mean Moi or Kibaki era. I think our judiciary is fairly independent now; albeit still corrupt; the problem really is the backlog; if you go to court now; the case dates for 2016 are filled up;
Gov has not obstructed on Baraza case. The warrants were relayed without delay from AG to Kimaiyo. Kimaiyo followed ICC act and went to High court to have them issue court order for enforce warrants. And Baraza went to court.
Baraza lost in high court and appealed. He will lose in court of appeal. And supreme court. He lacks the locus standi...he need to argue his case before ICC judges. What he will do is to buy time. He might decide to start another case in high court...before a stupid or corrupt judge..who will entertain it..enter stay order and have the case mentioned in 2018...adjourned as the guy is transferred in 2019..and finally the case will be heard and determined in 2022..and that is kenya for you.
There is nothing gov could have done except to illegally spirit Baraza away without following the procedure set by ICC act of 2008.
This is a fallacy repeated over without much thought. The only reason ICC is having issues in Kenya is that it's the only country where they happen to have a government opposed to them.
This would have probably turned out different had kamwana and Muthaura not been on the list of the accused. If they were to target Kagame's son, chances are they would have go to through the same hoops.
It just comes down to government obstructionism.
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RV Pundit wrote:
"Europe and countries with working judicial system would have long dismissed Baraza case on lack of juridisction."
How so? Please explain that one to me. I'll then put your explanation against the situation w.r.t. countries where the Bemba four were arrested. (I assume we can consider the judicial systems of France, Belgium, and the Netherlands as "working" ones.)
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Well our high courts have wide jurisdiction over any issue concerning the human rights of any citizen...so on that basis they entertained Baraza case...
It on that basis that Baraza has gone there...he think he will not get fair trial in ICC but on substantial issues..member state's domestic courts have no jurisdiction over ICC..
He is asking what judges cannot grant.
Part of his evidence details OTP misdeeds. But ICC is more than OTP...there are judges. There is really no way our courts can declare Baraza will not get fair trial...until he has gone through trial...which by then would again be too late..given Baraza might not be coming back.
RV Pundit wrote:
"Europe and countries with working judicial system would have long dismissed Baraza case on lack of juridisction."
How so? Please explain that one to me. I'll then put your explanation against the situation w.r.t. countries where the Bemba four were arrested. (I assume we can consider the judicial systems of France, Belgium, and the Netherlands as "working" ones.)
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Pundit:
I initially misunderstood; I get you now. Yes, you are right that serious courts would not even think of looking into Barasa's alleged tales of OTP misdeeds; that is not their place. That is why the French court did not take long with that guy, and he too had good stories.
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The one weakness that the Kenyan judiciary has yet to fix is willful laziness, dilly-dallying, pussy footing or procrastination... all within a degree and a half of perverseness. In other words it is so well done that you really have no one person or group you can blame or hold to account. Whether a delay or some other act, the events appear natural enough to be dismissed or blamed on something mundane like "backlog" etc. Yet you know there is a force at work.
Barasa is clearly playing ping ping in the Kenyan judiciary. I don't know how to treat it.... The mark of a good judiciary or proof of a rotten one.
One can say there is no possibility of such games in a controlled judiciary.... But then again we know of show trials and display suits as when Moi "allowed" Former Special Branch Deputy Boss Muriithi to file case after case before giving up and detaining him and putting an end to the "activism".
One can sue to kingdom come in the US - win some and lose some. But ultimately there is an end in sight when the road hits the wall.
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I call it kenya ujanja.Tying up straightforward issues in a legal maze.
The one weakness that the Kenyan judiciary has yet to fix is willful laziness, dilly-dallying, pussy footing or procrastination... all within a degree and a half of perverseness. In other words it is so well done that you really have no one person or group you can blame or hold to account. Whether a delay or some other act, the events appear natural enough to be dismissed or blamed on something mundane like "backlog" etc. Yet you know there is a force at work.
Barasa is clearly playing ping ping in the Kenyan judiciary. I don't know how to treat it.... The mark of a good judiciary or proof of a rotten one.
One can say there is no possibility of such games in a controlled judiciary.... But then again we know of show trials and display suits as when Moi "allowed" Former Special Branch Deputy Boss Muriithi to file case after case before giving up and detaining him and putting an end to the "activism".
One can sue to kingdom come in the US - win some and lose some. But ultimately there is an end in sight when the road hits the wall.
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The general understanding is that kamwana is required to attend the court session. They want to smell his sweat, breath and flatulence in the courtroom. His lawyers would already have figured out the right thing to do. I have no doubt that kamwana will do as instructed by the court.
Leaders of the flock are waking up to the same fact.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Face-judges-in-ICC-allies-advise-Uhuru/-/1064/2472092/-/e7y4t6/-/index.html