Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Nuff Sed on September 03, 2014, 03:28:17 PM
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Bittertruth and Vooke I'm here now. Before the lights went out at Mikate I heard you were drinking the bitter waters of a false theology and saying "hata wakizima taa tutaendelea!" Weee, I'm now here to disabuse you of any misinterpretations on the Bible. What were you saying about immortal souls on TooP? Is the dead soul of Mikate haunting you?
In the same breath I thank Veritas for opening the window for me to come in.
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officially here too. Good to see old friends and a chance to make some new friends.
Thanks Veritas for the invite and congratulations on your new baby.
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Bittertruth and Vooke I'm here now. Before the lights went out at Mikate I heard you were drinking the bitter waters of a false theology and saying "hata wakizima taa tutaendelea!" Weee, I'm now here to disabuse you of any misinterpretations on the Bible. What were you saying about immortal souls on TooP? Is the dead soul of Mikate haunting you?
In the same breath I thank Veritas for opening the window for me to come in.
Nuff Sed
Welcome home. ;D
What is was saying before lights went off is that soul-sleep refers to the idea that when we die, our souls "fall asleep" and become totally unconscious.
Conversely, the Bible teaches that believers who die immediately go to be with the Lord. Certain false religions; such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists errantly teach that Christians are not conscious after death, and that their soul remains at rest in the grave until a future resurrection; however, there are numerous Scriptures which thwart such speculation.
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Bittertruth and Vooke I'm here now. Before the lights went out at Mikate I heard you were drinking the bitter waters of a false theology and saying "hata wakizima taa tutaendelea!" Weee, I'm now here to disabuse you of any misinterpretations on the Bible. What were you saying about immortal souls on TooP? Is the dead soul of Mikate haunting you?
In the same breath I thank Veritas for opening the window for me to come in.
Nuff Sed
Welcome home. ;D
What is was saying before lights went off is that soul-sleep refers to the idea that when we die, our souls "fall asleep" and become totally unconscious.
Conversely, the Bible teaches that believers who die immediately go to be with the Lord. Certain false religions; such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists errantly teach that Christians are not conscious after death, and that their soul remains at rest in the grave until a future resurrection; however, there are numerous Scriptures which thwart such speculation.
Bitter
I didnt follow the last lengthy discussion due to time constraints, but I was wondering if it is true the soul/spirit departs from mthe body when we die to be with the lord, what then happenes when christ returns......what happens during resurrection? Does it mean the body also returns since the soul /spirit is already risen?
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Mya,
the soul is not "already risen". It is simply disembodied. that's what DEATH means, the soul separates from the body and because the soul is the life ("breathe") of the body, the body disintegrates....dies.
resurrection means the reunification of the soul with its body. It involves two miracles that only God can make possible:
1) The body is brought back together again, even though it had disintegrated
2) The soul and body are reunited.
A disembodied spirit/soul is not fully human/fully whole. Human nature means soul + body, so for as long as the body lies in the ground, the human is not whole. We were made citizens of two worlds, that of matter, the dust, this one where we are, and that of spirit, and that's why we must be resurrected. Physical death is a result of the fall.
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Bittertruth I am glad to read your response although I don't agree with it. It is a pity that we lost all that religious scholarship with the death of Mikate. Since you are a man of God I hope you are praying for its "soul" to be revived and we can retrieve the discussions. I'm not as interested in what Seventh days or JWs say as what the Bible says. Here we have a big issue in Christianity (in some ways, the biggest issue), life and death. We have two opposite ideas - that people die (sleep) and wait for the resurrection, AND the idea that souls are immortal, conscious and alive when a person dies. Who is right? Can we begin afresh or should we pick it up from the last post in Mikate?
I must admit I was surprised that you had ganged up with Vooke to propagate this unbiblical theology. Can we begin with the verses you are referring to? What makes you say when a person dies his soul remains alive? I'm only interested in Bible verses, and we could begin with a biblical definition of the word "soul."
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Mya88, welcome aboard! You have asked a very deep question that Vooke has avoided responding to for several weeks now. It does not make biblical sense for Christ to return to take believers home if they are already "gone to be with the Lord." If it were so, John 14 would be particularly ridiculous.
John 14 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
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Mya,
the soul is not "already risen". It is simply disembodied. that's what DEATH means, the soul separates from the body and because the soul is the life ("breathe") of the body, the body disintegrates....dies.
resurrection means the reunification of the soul with its body. It involves two miracles that only God can make possible:
1) The body is brought back together again, even though it had disintegrated
2) The soul and body are reunited.
A disembodied spirit/soul is not fully human/fully whole. Human nature means soul + body, so for as long as the body lies in the ground, the human is not whole. We were made citizens of two worlds, that of matter, the dust, this one where we are, and that of spirit, and that's why we must be resurrected. Physical death is a result of the fall.
Babe, welcome aboard too! This is a matter of life and death (excuse the pan). Can you support your assertions with Bible verses?
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Mya,
the soul is not "already risen". It is simply disembodied. that's what DEATH means, the soul separates from the body and because the soul is the life ("breathe") of the body, the body disintegrates....dies.
resurrection means the reunification of the soul with its body. It involves two miracles that only God can make possible:
1) The body is brought back together again, even though it had disintegrated
2) The soul and body are reunited.
A disembodied spirit/soul is not fully human/fully whole. Human nature means soul + body, so for as long as the body lies in the ground, the human is not whole. We were made citizens of two worlds, that of matter, the dust, this one where we are, and that of spirit, and that's why we must be resurrected. Physical death is a result of the fall.
Kababe
Interesting.....so where does the soul go after it departs from the body? What about all those saints who are departed, are they in heaven or are they all waiting fro resurrection? What about Elijah and another person in genesis who were simply taken up the sky by God?
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Mya88, welcome aboard! You have asked a very deep question that Vooke has avoided responding to for several weeks now. It does not make biblical sense for Christ to return to take believers home if they are already "gone to be with the Lord." If it were so, John 14 would be particularly ridiculous.
John 14 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Nuff
Welcome on board...I thought the ship sailed off while you were still engaged with vooke lol. I agree....what is the purpose of resurrection if the sould has already met his maker?
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Bittertruth I am glad to read your response although I don't agree with it. It is a pity that we lost all that religious scholarship with the death of Mikate. Since you are a man of God I hope you are praying for its "soul" to be revived and we can retrieve the discussions. I'm not as interested in what Seventh days or JWs say as what the Bible says. Here we have a big issue in Christianity (in some ways, the biggest issue), life and death. We have two opposite ideas - that people die (sleep) and wait for the resurrection, AND the idea that souls are immortal, conscious and alive when a person dies. Who is right? Can we begin afresh or should we pick it up from the last post in Mikate?
I must admit I was surprised that you had ganged up with Vooke to propagate this unbiblical theology. Can we begin with the verses you are referring to? What makes you say when a person dies his soul remains alive? I'm only interested in Bible verses, and we could begin with a biblical definition of the word "soul."
Nuff Sed and Mya88
Acts 7:54-59 is a powerful evidence.
Now do you really think that the Apostle Stephen, who was literally being stoned to death for preaching the Gospel [who is seeing the heaven's opened right before his very eyes and the Lord standing on the right hand of the Father]... do you really think that Stephen just went into unconsciousness in the grave? Of course not! Stephen went to Heaven to be with the Lord.
1st Thessalonians 4:14 tells us, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” When Jesus returns at the Rapture, the Bible teaches that God will bring those who “sleep in Jesus” WITH HIM. Amen! The only way for God to bring those saints WITH HIM means that they were already WITH HIM in Heaven. Those who die in the Lord are asleep in Jesus, but their soul and spirit are in Heaven with the Lord.
Matthew 22:32 states, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” God is not the God of the DEAD; but of the LIVING.
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It's a good question to ask indeed. Again, the theology seems to suggest that the souls of wicked people go somewhere too (presumably hell, if vooke's eisegesis of Luke 16 is anything to go by). So why is judgment necessary? Look at the ridiculousness of people going to heaven or hell at death and God judging them to determine where they should go after the fact.
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Bitter Truth
Does "asleep in Jesus" mean "asleep with Jesus"......there is a coma in that sentence which changes the meaning depending on how you look at it.
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BT, I'm sure it does not escape your notice that Stephen spoke those words while he was still alive. Acts 7 would have supported your theology if you had concentrated on the words that "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" which simply refers to the breath of life. Thessalonians does not support the theology either. Christ will bring with him resurrected saints, not dead souls. In the Bible there was a prophet who died and his bones touched a dead man and he rose to life. Dead things, let alone dead souls cannot inhabit God's presence and remain dead, simply because God is the Giver of life. So the theology that dead souls are crying under God's throne is as contradictory as they come.
Before we go too far can we get biblical definitions of soul and spirit?
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Mya88.
When we die
The soul/spirit of believer go to be with the Lord.
The soul/spirit of unbeliever goes to hell. Do you believe in inhalation? Ive hear the Mormons and JW teach this heresy.
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BT, I'm sure it does not escape your notice that Stephen spoke those words while he was still alive. Acts 7 would have supported your theology if you had concentrated on the words that "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" which simply refers to the breath of life. Thessalonians does not support the theology either. Christ will bring with him resurrected saints, not dead souls. In the Bible there was a prophet who died and his bones touched a dead man and he rose to life. Dead things, let alone dead souls cannot inhabit God's presence and remain dead, simply because God is the Giver of life. So the theology that dead souls are crying under God's throne is as contradictory as they come.
Before we go too far can we get biblical definitions of soul and spirit?
Nuff
That prophet was Elisha and to be fair for discussions sake....he wasnt any ordinary man, he had a double portion of Elija's blessing, the same Elijay who was taken up in heaven in a chariot before he dropped his mantel to Elisha. That is an extraordinary situation. Whe he died he failed to pass on the gift/power and was burried with it, that is why when the dead bones came into contact with his body, the dead man started walking.....meaning the gift /power was with him, not sure if soul/spirit was also present. Now to ordinary folks this doesnt apply....... I think.
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Mya88.
When we die
The soul/spirit of believer go to be with the Lord.
The soul/spirit of unbeliever goes to hell. Do you believe in inhalation? Ive hear the Mormons and JW teach this heresy.
BT
I don't really know what inhalation means in biblical context, nor am I familiar with the teachings of mormon and JW. I also believ that when we die, the soul/spirit goes to be with the lord, or I thought, I belived until, I started being curious about resurrection..... now I dont know what to think anymore. But, We are all learning here, so I dont neccessarily thing anyone here has authority of absolute truth but I am open to hearing what other people think
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Nuff Sed, when God made Adam's body, it was not alive. He became a living soul once God had infused a spirit into into him. This means that the life of the body comes from that spirit. if it departs, the body must become lifeless and go back to dust. That's what death means. the life isn't there in the body anymore.
There is another kind of "death" in the Bible, which means the soul is separated from GOD. this is the result of sin/separation from God, and in Adam, it resulted in the fall of his own nature including his body and even the world. that's why illness, death and the like become possible and the world is permanently a place of suffering in general...Even after Jesus has come and ascended.
Nothing now works as it was designed to...not perfectly. So when we receive our bodies from our parents, we enter that fallen state and inherit Adam's lot of being separated from the divinity. This state of separation into we which we are all born is what we Catholics call "original sin". We start lives with spiritually dead souls. Upon conversion, its the soul that receives the life which was the gift lost by Adam by his disobedience when he failed the test just like the fallen angels before him. Yet because of Jesus, it is something we gain by a "new inheritance" through Jesus, the second Adam. And God himself comes to dwell in our souls as in a home. This is "justification", the thing you cannot earn, cannot merit, but must only receive. This live grows in you, slowly transforming you more and more (as long as you cooperate with grace) into what you were meant to be, into "another Christ". That's what we call "sanctification", it is a process. Glorification is the final union with God. all those represent how the life of God is planted in your soul like a seedling which if not trampled, will grow into a mature tree.
However, that new life born in the soul that makes the soul spiritually "alive", that reunites the soul with the divinity, that makes you an adopted child of God, does not redeem your body immediately, your body remains in its fallen state and in fact still suffers the full effects of the sin of Adam, suffering, pain in child birth, toil, illness, and finally death itself. the resurrection represents the redemption of the body as well, beyond the fallen body that suffers illness and mortality. The body is reborn almost like the soul was reborn first. Then the universe itself which is also fallen, is redeemed, and we have a new heaven and a new earth.
God never created this world to give it up, he made it for man and he made man to exist forever, with his full nature, not just his soul, and with his "world" the universe, that God had made for him. None of this was made to die/end. You face the dilemma of "why does Jesus come back" because you have a limited view or redemption. everything that was lost is to be returned, including our physical integrity and our universe as it was intended to be without suffering. All of that is the work of redemption, not just souls alone, but all of the creation made for human beings.
@Mya, as you know I'm catholic, so our beliefs here are NOT be identical with what protestants believe.
for us,
people who die in friendship with Jesus (this is what protestants may call "saved" though we have radically different beliefs about that too) will go straight to heaven if they have already been perfected while on earth, that is, fully purified of their fallen tendencies. Those who have still a ways to go will be purged first before going to heaven. However, both are those who have died "saved", if I can use that term. There's no more "choice" after death. once you die, the will's direction becomes permanent and unchangeable.
Those who die separated from God will go to Hell.
the mainline protestant view (not the SDA/JW/soul sleep one) does not involve a purificatory stage for those who die saved. They go straight to heaven, those who are not saved go to hell.
We also believe that at the resurrection, souls of both the just (saved) and the damned will be reunited with their reintegrated bodies
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It's a good question to ask indeed. Again, the theology seems to suggest that the souls of wicked people go somewhere too (presumably hell, if vooke's eisegesis of Luke 16 is anything to go by). So why is judgment necessary? Look at the ridiculousness of people going to heaven or hell at death and God judging them to determine where they should go after the fact.
There is an immediate personal judgment when you die. The judgment at the end of the world is public and for everyone. Everyone knows why you are heaven-headed or hell-headed. Also, when Jesus returns, there will still be people alive who will not have been judged at all. The Bible says in Hebrews, (9-27) "For it is appointed upon man once to die and then comes judgment". At death all of us will face our maker ourselves, personally, directly, alone. But there will also be no secrets in the end, the final/general judgment when Jesus coms back lays all truth bare to all.
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BT, I'm sure it does not escape your notice that Stephen spoke those words while he was still alive. Acts 7 would have supported your theology if you had concentrated on the words that "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" which simply refers to the breath of life. Thessalonians does not support the theology either. Christ will bring with him resurrected saints, not dead souls. In the Bible there was a prophet who died and his bones touched a dead man and he rose to life. Dead things, let alone dead souls cannot inhabit God's presence and remain dead, simply because God is the Giver of life. So the theology that dead souls are crying under God's throne is as contradictory as they come.
Before we go too far can we get biblical definitions of soul and spirit?
Nuff
That prophet was Elisha and to be fair for discussions sake....he wasnt any ordinary man, he had a double portion of Elija's blessing, the same Elijay who was taken up in heaven in a chariot before he dropped his mantel to Elisha. That is an extraordinary situation. Whe he died he failed to pass on the gift/power and was burried with it, that is why when the dead bones came into contact with his body, the dead man started walking.....meaning the gift /power was with him, not sure if soul/spirit was also present. Now to ordinary folks this doesnt apply....... I think.
It applies to everyone, mya. Its a forshadowing. It shows that God can bring back a dead body from dead bones.
What do you make of the story of Samuel and the witch who spoke to him without his body?
Mya, consider that the life of adam comes from the spirit God breathed into that body. that spirit cannot possibly "die" since its by definition, the life itself. I don't know if nuff sed believes it vanishes (stops existing) after death, or if it merely remains unconscious, but it cannot be "dead". Something dead does not make a body come alive. Question is, if it remains after the death, "where" is it? Nuff sed, the Bible says it goes back to God. What does this mean?
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Also, nuffsed and mya, just to add, Jesus told his disciples when they could not stay awake and pray with him in St. Mathew 26:41 "Watch and pray lest ye fall into temptation. The SPIRIT is willing, but the flesh is weak". Here you can see that Christ identified the faculty of the will with the Spirit and not with the body. He showed that while united in man, they are two distinct things, the spirit and the flesh, not just a monolithic "living soul" referring to a man that is alive. In the same way he speaks of the ability to kill the body but NOT the soul. Although God can destroy BOTH in Gehenna. It is clear that Jesus is aware that man is made up of two distinct things, a spirit and a physical body. These two things are not simply one undifferentiated thing called "a soul" as nuff Sed seems to belief. Just like is clear in Genesis, man is the union of a spirit which is made immediately by God and a body which is formed by God from the matter of the physical world. Hence, this is quite clear in the Bible:
1) man is made up of two different things, spirit and matter
2) The faculty of the will is a faculty that belongs to the spirit and not to the body
3) No man can kill a soul, yet we known that men can kill other men. Nuff sed's making "man" the equivalent of a "soul" cannot be right since Jesus says we cannot kill a soul. The Bible makes clear that we should not kill others but tells us we have no ability to kill their souls. This means their souls are not as mortal as their bodies which we can destroy.
4) God destroys the soul, "in Gehena", not at death.
5) He implies that both body and soul are to partake of the eternal punishment, not just one without the other.
Hence, if souls are not killed by men, and are "destroyed" by God himself in Gehenna, not at the death of the body, where does the belief in soul sleep come in?
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So you guys are still debating Nuff Sed about this issue...I lost track of the debate once he refused to acknowledge what the bible said in the book of Samuel. ::) ::)
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Kadude,
Welcome aboard! Are you referring to I Sam 28 where Saul goes to visit a medium? That was Satan disguised as Samuel.
Leviticus 19
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless.
And the verdict is telling.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (NIV)
The Bible mentions many things that are non-kosher (for example, Amnon's rape of his sister, or the Canaanites' worship of Baal and Ashteroth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter). We cannot follow them as believers or use them as a basis of theology. If Samuel's soul was alive and conscious, there would have been no need for Saul to go through a medium, a spiritualist which God warned His people against. Notice that God comes to a strong verdict against Saul and mentions the medium's incident as one of the reasons Saul was killed.
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Kadude,
Welcome aboard! Are you referring to I Sam 28 where Saul goes to visit a medium? That was Satan disguised as Samuel.
Leviticus 19
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless.
And the verdict is telling.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (NIV)
The Bible mentions many things that are non-kosher (for example, Amnon's rape of his sister, or the Canaanites' worship of Baal and Ashteroth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter). We cannot follow them as believers or use them as a basis of theology. If Samuel's soul was alive and conscious, there would have been no need for Saul to go through a medium, a spiritualist which God warned His people against. Notice that God comes to a strong verdict against Saul and mentions the medium's incident as one of the reasons Saul was killed.
The problem was not that the Bible records non-kosher events, the problem was that the Bible itself recorded that it WAS Samuel. That witch did not write scripture, so why would the scriptural author under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit confuse a demon with the Prophet Samuel and then write this confusion into scripture? ???
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Kadude,
Welcome aboard! Are you referring to I Sam 28 where Saul goes to visit a medium? That was Satan disguised as Samuel.
Leviticus 19
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless.
And the verdict is telling.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (NIV)
The Bible mentions many things that are non-kosher (for example, Amnon's rape of his sister, or the Canaanites' worship of Baal and Ashteroth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter). We cannot follow them as believers or use them as a basis of theology. If Samuel's soul was alive and conscious, there would have been no need for Saul to go through a medium, a spiritualist which God warned His people against. Notice that God comes to a strong verdict against Saul and mentions the medium's incident as one of the reasons Saul was killed.
Nuff Sed I beg to differ again here. It was actually Samuels spirit.Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "why have you disturbed me by bringing me up.
If it was actually a demon instead of Samuel it would have said so. But it actually says Samuel. Also Samuel predicted the fate of Saul and the Isrealite army. I don't think a demon could have done that.
where is vooke on this?
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Kababe I hear your argument. I wish you backed your statements with scripture. Then we would have the opportunity to read them in context, comparing scripture with scripture, here a little, there a little. Scripture explains itself.
Indeed, there are Bible verses that seem to suggest souls/spirits live after death (for example, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus). However, on closer examination you will discover that the Bible is very consistent. For example, it never uses the word "spirit" to refer to living persons. Its use of the word "soul" to refer to living persons is also consistent with the story of salvation, which is what all the 66 books are about.
You have mentioned two kinds of death. That is indeed true. There is the first death (when people die before Christ returns. In John 11, we see for example Lazarus' death, which Christ referred to as "sleep". Notice that Christ woke Lazarus from the dead, and there is no record anywhere to suggest that Lazarus had a soul which knew Christ would come or that spoke to his grieving sisters Martha and Mary). When His own friend died, knowing that the matter of death had troubled every living person on earth, Christ had the perfect opportunity to tell believers about the afterlife and the existence of a "soul" or "spirit" in the afterlife. So what does He do instead? He says Lazarus "sleepeth" and he is going to wake Him up (to demonstrate that He is the source of life, without Him man dies). Not a mention of Lazarus' dead "soul" and not a mention of his "spirit".
John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Paul uses the same words to refer to the dead in I Thessalonians 4. Again, notice the consistency - no soul or spirit mentioned. Specifically, notice that verse 15 says the living will not hinder the dead from rising to meet Christ. In other words, they had been dead all that time.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Then there is the Second death referred to in Rev 21.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We can discuss more about the differences between the first death and the second death and their relationship with the concept of "soul" and "spirit". It also explains Jesus' reference to Him "who can destroy both body and soul" (Matt 10:28).
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BT, Satan and his demons are wiser than men, after all they have been in this business 6,000 odd years. They don't always openly show themselves as the Bible records. It began in Eden when he came "subtly" as a serpent. If he had come as Satan, red in tooth and claw, Eve would have ran away very fast. In the scene recorded in I Sam 28, it is very unlikely that Saul, faced with a situation of life and death, could have taken the medium's word if she had told him,"Well, I see a demon armed with a pitchfork and he is clothed in red." In any case, Saul was seeking to save his life but the diabolical demon led him to death anyway. The context of the verse helps us understand what is really going on.
Do not ignore verse 14.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
In other words, Saul saw the Samuel he wanted to see although the message wasn't what he wanted to hear. Just because the being seen by the medium spoke, talked and looked like Samuel does not mean it was Samuel. Satan disguised himself (just like Saul did to the woman but was discovered). Satan also speaks the truth at times just like he did in Matthew 4 and (mis)quoted the Bible to Jesus Himself. He had done it before to Eve and succeeded.
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"Most of us have been taught that if a man takes a blow to the head hard enough to knock him out, then he knows nothing. However, if he is hit hard enough to kill him, then he knows everything! Strange. Does a dead man really know more than a living one? Not according to David; "In that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalms 146:4), and the other passages listed in the previous question and answer."
This website deals extensively with the subject of soul, spirit and what happens when we die. The beauty of it is that the writer does not just throw things but backs his statements with scripture unlike some of what we have seen here. We need not reinvent the wheel.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/happens-death.html
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Nuffsed, why are you implying that others "back up" their claims with scripture but the people on this discussion don't?
Is this not a discussion of scripture? And how many scriptures have been cited to you already, at nipate and here?Also, nuffsed and mya, just to add, Jesus told his disciples when they could not stay awake and pray with him in St. Mathew 26:41 "Watch and pray lest ye fall into temptation. The SPIRIT is willing, but the flesh is weak". Here you can see that Christ identified the faculty of the will with the Spirit and not with the body. He showed that while united in man, they are two distinct things, the spirit and the flesh, not just a monolithic "living soul" referring to a man that is alive. In the same way he speaks of the ability to kill the body but NOT the soul. Although God can destroy BOTH in Gehenna. It is clear that Jesus is aware that man is made up of two distinct things, a spirit and a physical body. These two things are not simply one undifferentiated thing called "a soul" as nuff Sed seems to belief. Just like is clear in Genesis, man is the union of a spirit which is made immediately by God and a body which is formed by God from the matter of the physical world. Hence, this is quite clear in the Bible:
1) man is made up of two different things, spirit and matter
2) The faculty of the will is a faculty that belongs to the spirit and not to the body
3) No man can kill a soul, yet we known that men can kill other men. Nuff sed's making "man" the equivalent of a "soul" cannot be right since Jesus says we cannot kill a soul. The Bible makes clear that we should not kill others but tells us we have no ability to kill their souls. This means their souls are not as mortal as their bodies which we can destroy.
4) God destroys the soul, "in Gehena", not at death.
5) He implies that both body and soul are to partake of the eternal punishment, not just one without the other.
Hence, if souls are not killed by men, and are "destroyed" by God himself in Gehenna, not at the death of the body, where does the belief in soul sleep come in?
As for Samuel, Here is the passage:
1 Samuel 28:7-25New International Version (NIV)
7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”
10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
You are saying that this was NOT Samuel speaking but a demon.....WHY does the Bible say that it is Samuel? Do you think the writer of 1st Samuel made a mistake? Your position is basically claiming that the Bible is lying here, don't you see that?
Also, how does a demon know God's plans in advance and what would be the goal of that demon in telling Samuel the TRUTH? ???
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Nuff Sedd
You are being disingenous here. You cannot pick and choose scripture to fit your own logic. If you want context, you have to read the whole scripture....there is nowhere in 1Sam 28 where the person Saul saw is refered to as demon, you came up with that because as you claim "Saul percieved it him to be Samuel." You ignore that Jesus himself did appear to demons and they sometimes use his name to do thier works. Anywhere further down, the scripture tells you:
" 16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. "
It clearly says Samuel spoke.......who wrote those scriptures and anyway, How can the Lord say all these things through the demons and they come to pass?
Ooops I see kababe has already attached the verses.
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Kababe/Mya88,
There are numerous circumstances where the Bible records people swindling, betraying and backstabbing each other thinking completely different things from the reality. In Joshua 9, for example, Israel made peace with the Gibeonites and the Bible records that the people came from far and had moulded bread. The reality was different. In another case, Amnon David's son was sick but his intention was to rape his sister.
2 Sam 13.
2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do anything to her.
3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.
That is why reading in context is crucial in understanding text, any text. Vooke has repeatedly rejected contextual reading. Any verse that is hard to understand can be unlocked by reading contextually comparing the verse with the verses before it, understanding the historical context, the writer's background, the chapter, book and indeed the whole Bible. That is context.
The devil has spoken truth (half-truth to be precise) and out of context. He used that to beguile Adam and Eve and attempted to use it on Christ (Matthew 4, Luke 4). Jesus warns believers to beware of the devil's cunning (Matt 24:24) which will include imitating Christ Himself. John warns us of the same thing, that the devil will in these last days even command fire out of heaven.
Rev 13
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
If Satan could disguise himself into a snake in Eden, is it too hard for him to disguise himself as Samuel and cheat the king of Israel? That website tackles the questions you ask, very biblically. See:
Communication with the Spirit World
Can the dead communicate with the living?
Answer: No (Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-6, Job 7:9-10; 14:21; 16:22, 2 Samuel 12:18,23).
Where does the communication come from?
Answer: The adversary (2 Thessalonians 2:9, 1 Timothy 4:1, Revelation 16:14, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15). In Genesis 3:1 is recorded the adversary's first communications with humans. This is the record of the first Spirit Medium, speaking through the snake or serpent in the garden of Eden. In Genesis 3:3 is recorded the serpent's first lie to man, "Ye shall not surely die." His goal to perpetuate this lie has been a great success (2 Corinthians 11:3).
What does the scripture say about spiritualism?
Answer: It's an abomination to God (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26,31; 20:6,27, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Numbers 24:1, Malachi 3:5, Galatians 5:21, Matthew 24:24, Jeremiah 27:9-10, Micah 5:12, 2 Kings 17:17; 21:6; 23:24, Daniel 1:20, 1 Samuel 15:23; 28:3, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Isaiah 2:6; 47:12-15, Acts 8:9-11; 13:8-10; 16:16-18; 19:19, Revelation 21:8; 22:14-15). Saul died because of his transgressions against the Lord and because he asked counsel of the spiritualist at Endor (1 Chronicles 10:13). Notice in the story of Saul trying to contact the late Samuel (1 Samuel 28:6-17), it always refers to Samuel as being brought up. If Samuel was up in Heaven, wouldn't it say, Samuel came down?
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Yes, mya, that's the thing. Nuff is reading these scriptures with soul-sleep already presumed as established so that she ends up supplementing scripture with other facts, in this case: "It's not Samuel, it's a demon." Even though the BIBLE itself is saying it WAS Samuel. 8)
I also pointed out to her the verse in NEW Testament at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Elijah went to Heaven with his body, so he doesn't matter in this context. But MOSES died and was buried by God himself in a place nobody saw. Nuff claimed that Moses was already resurrected yet this "fact" of Moses' resurrection is not given anywhere in the Bible. As far as we know, Moses died and God himself buried him, he wasn't resurrected anywhere, at least I've never heard that belief anywhere.
Lastly, Terminator pointed out the verse in Peter where Peter says that Jesus AFTER dying, went and preached to the imprisoned spirits who were had been disobedient during Noah's time. Nuff Sed also claimed that these spirits were demons and not human souls. Now, why would Jesus go to preach to demons who are already DAMNED? Also, WHO in the Bible was disobedient during Noah's time and the flood? Was it not human beings? Nuff ignores this and claims it was demons.
I think Nuff sed is just clinging to her beliefs and rewriting scripture in the places where it plainly contradicts her beliefs. And then calling this rewriting process "Context".
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Nuff Sedd
When it says brought up, I think its the spirit of Samuel...Also God cannot send Satan to deliver a message. Samuel or the spirit/ soul (I will not belabor to differentiate the two) told Saul, the Kingdom would be taken from him and given to David....and it came to pass that is why I do not believe it was the Demon as you purport without trying to complicate matters.
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Yes, mya, that's the thing. Nuff is reading these scriptures with soul-sleep already presumed as established so that she ends up supplementing scripture with other facts, in this case: "It's not Samuel, it's a demon." Even though the BIBLE itself is saying it WAS Samuel. 8)
I also pointed out to her the verse in NEW Testament at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Elijah went to Heaven with his body, so he doesn't matter in this context. But MOSES died and was buried by God himself in a place nobody saw. Nuff claimed that Moses was already resurrected yet this "fact" of Moses' resurrection is not given anywhere in the Bible. As far as we know, Moses died and God himself buried him, he wasn't resurrected anywhere, at least I've never heard that belief anywhere.
Lastly, Terminator pointed out the verse in Peter where Peter says that Jesus AFTER dying, went and preached to the imprisoned spirits who were had been disobedient during Noah's time. Nuff Sed also claimed that these spirits were demons and not human souls. Now, why would Jesus go to preach to demons who are already DAMNED? Also, WHO in the Bible was disobedient during Noah's time and the flood? Was it not human beings? Nuff ignores this and claims it was demons.
I think Nuff sed is just clinging to her beliefs and rewriting scripture in the places where it plainly contradicts her beliefs. And then calling this rewriting process "Context".
Looooooool ati soul sleep....I never was interested in that topic at Toop, but maybe when I get time I will revisit it. This is dangerous for nuff to start making things up as she goes by to suit her theological pedagogy, and speak with such strong convictions......... we may have to agree to disagree here.
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Nuff sed, you keep saying that the Bible records bad things, THAT is not the issue.
The issue is NOT that the Bible records what Saul did, going to a witch to consult a dead person; the Bible records the sins of Adam, mankind, Israelites, even the sins of the patriachs, prophets and Apostles themselves are recorded. THAT is not the issue!
The issue is that the Bible says "SAMUEL said". It does not say "THE DEMON said". The only way your interpretation could be true is if we accept that either it was the Witch who wrote the book of 1st Samuel or that the person who wrote that book wrote a plain LIE in scripture and the Holy Spirit allowed it.
Explain Why the Bible says "Samuel said" and not "The Demon said"
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Saul saw what he wanted to see, heard what he wanted to hear. I Sam 28 records the devil using a king's desperation to sow seeds of dead men speaking to living men (how strange). I have posted the verses that expose the deception in that passage. Reading in context helps.
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Saul saw what he wanted to see, heard what he wanted to hear. I Sam 28 records the devil using a king's desperation to sow seeds of dead men speaking to living men (how strange). I have posted the verses that expose the deception in that passage. Reading in context helps.
But we are not arguing about what Saul saw, heard, thought or whatever. We are talking about what THE SCRIPTURE itself says. Again, WHY does the Bible say: SAMUEL said....and yet according to you, it was not Samuel but a demon. When the sacred author wrote down this phrase: Samuel said....do you think he made a mistake? Should he not have written: THE DEMON said....?????
We all understand that both the witch and Saul could be deceived, but how could the SCRIPTURE AUTHOR also be deceived?? That's the issue.
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Mya88,
By the time Saul was speaking to the so-called Samuel, God had rejected him and Samuel had refused to see him. Do not marvel, Satan knows the Bible and has been (ab)using it for more than 6,000 years. He misquoted it in front of Jesus in Matthew 4. Read the chapter and you will see that. God did not need to send Satan to Saul and He did not. Satan sent himself and the repercussions are here with us - not only the defeat of Saul/Israel in war but also the amazingly successful repeat of the first deception in Eden. People misapply I Sam 28 in that regard. Gen 3: "Did God really say..."
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I have quoted to you how the Bible also records that Amnon was ill. Reading further along we realize he only wanted to rape his sister, although the Bible records he was ill. I do not fault the Bible passage. I fault reading out of context.
Saul saw what he wanted to see, heard what he wanted to hear. I Sam 28 records the devil using a king's desperation to sow seeds of dead men speaking to living men (how strange). I have posted the verses that expose the deception in that passage. Reading in context helps.
But we are not arguing about what Saul saw, heard, thought or whatever. We are talking about what THE SCRIPTURE itself says. Again, WHY does the Bible say: SAMUEL said....and yet according to you, it was not Samuel but a demon. When the sacred author wrote down this phrase: Samuel said....do you think he made a mistake? Should he not have written: THE DEMON said....?????
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Nuff sed, you keep saying that the Bible records bad things, THAT is not the issue.
The issue is NOT that the Bible records what Saul did, going to a witch to consult a dead person; the Bible records the sins of Adam, mankind, Israelites, even the sins of the patriachs, prophets and Apostles themselves are recorded. THAT is not the issue!
The issue is that the Bible says "SAMUEL said". It does not say "THE DEMON said". The only way your interpretation could be true is if we accept that either it was the Witch who wrote the book of 1st Samuel or that the person who wrote that book wrote a plain LIE in scripture and the Holy Spirit allowed it.
Explain Why the Bible says "Samuel said" and not "The Demon said"
i do not see how this becomes a problem if you read in context.
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Nuffsed, the verse you quoted said Annon was so vexed that he fell sick "with his sister Tamar". That was true. That was WHY he raped her. Are you saying Annon was not sick with his sister Tamar?
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No kababe. All I'm showing you is that if you read in context you will understand that although the Bible records that Amnon was ill (it is recorded that even his friends asked him why he was so thin), in reality he was not. Context helps you understand what the Bible means.
Nuffsed, the verse you quoted said Annon was so vexed that he fell sick "with his sister Tamar". That was true. That was WHY he raped her. Are you saying Annon was not sick with his sister Tamar?
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Nuff sed, you keep saying that the Bible records bad things, THAT is not the issue.
The issue is NOT that the Bible records what Saul did, going to a witch to consult a dead person; the Bible records the sins of Adam, mankind, Israelites, even the sins of the patriachs, prophets and Apostles themselves are recorded. THAT is not the issue!
The issue is that the Bible says "SAMUEL said". It does not say "THE DEMON said". The only way your interpretation could be true is if we accept that either it was the Witch who wrote the book of 1st Samuel or that the person who wrote that book wrote a plain LIE in scripture and the Holy Spirit allowed it.
Explain Why the Bible says "Samuel said" and not "The Demon said"
i do not see how this becomes a problem if you read in context.
It is a problem because you are claiming that the facts are not as the Bible presents them, that it was Not Samuel despite what the Bible says, that it was demons who were disobedient at the flood when we know it was humans, etc. If "context" means getting to bluntly change what facts the bible records then every interpretation of any single verse can be justified. You just ignore or change the verses that contradict that interpretation to saying what fits your presumption.
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No kababe. All I'm showing you is that if you read in context you will understand that although the Bible records that Amnon was ill (it is recorded that even his friends asked him why he was so thin), in reality he was not. Context helps you understand what the Bible means.
Nuffsed, the verse you quoted said Annon was so vexed that he fell sick "with his sister Tamar". That was true. That was WHY he raped her. Are you saying Annon was not sick with his sister Tamar?
There's no "context" required, sorry nuffsed. Annon was so vexed that he fell sick with his sister. Again it is you who are substituting that verse with your supplementary facts when you claim that he was NOT sick, contrary to what the bible has recorded. I don't care what his friend said/asked, that's not what is important, its what the Bible records HAPPENED that matters and here, Annon DID fall sick with his sister and his rape of her was the result. Its also something that is true in reality, you can be so obsessed with an individual that you become PHYSICALLY sick, especially unrequited love where you cants have the object of your affection. You loose appetite, become depressed, lethargic, its own sets of symptoms and some of them are physical.
There is nothing at all that needs to be supplied with more "facts" to understand what that verse is saying, it's plain. Just like 1st Samuel.
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Nuff sed, and again to debunk your soul sleep false doctrine, "What did Jesus mean when He said, ‘Today you will be with me in paradise’?" Luke 23:43
The first point to note is that Jesus was communicating with the thief verbally. In any language, people converse without commas, semicolons, question marks or exclamation marks. In fact, writers employ such devices only because they believe that the spoken message is clearer and want to approximate it. It is not true, therefore, that what Jesus said was ambiguous.
Introduction of commas centuries later is therefore ireelevant .
secondly, u note that all major bible translations are consistent that the comma is before Today thus: "truly I tell you, Today you will be with me in Paradise"
The malefactor would be with Jesus on that very day in paradise.
and three, Commas have no syntactical value in New Testament Greek. If commas are later introduced by an editor, they would serve only to make the text easier to read — not to clarify the meaning. Commas, in any edition of the Greek New Testament, are intended only as a help to the reader, not as a means of safeguarding the correct understanding of a passage.
Therefore your presupposition that luke 23:43 is ambiguous is illegitimate.
soul-sleep is damn heretical
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Educating Nuff Sed is an exercise in futility. Soul sleep is central doctrine to her sect and she has been stuck in it for eternities. She'd rather defend it with the dumbest illogic you'll ever run into
When cornered these are her standard defenses;
1. 'CONTEXT'
2. 'Many Other Clear Scriptures'
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About Ammon falling sick, Please read the verse in ALL of these translations and tell me whether there is doubt the Bible misrepresented the facts
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Samuel%2013:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Samuel%2013:2)
Here is a sample;
2 Samuel 13:2 (NRSVA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (NRSVACE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (NRSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
Shmuel Bais 13:2 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 And Amnon was so distressed, that he fell ill for his achot Tamar; for she was betulah; but Amnon thought it impossible for him to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (RSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 And Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (RSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 And Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (VOICE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 Amnon was actually sick with desire for his half sister Tamar. Because she was a royal virgin, there was no chance for him to be with her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (WEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 Amnon was so troubled that he became sick because of his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and it seemed hard to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (WYC) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 And Amnon perished greatly for her, so that he was sick for her love. For since she was a virgin, it seemed hard to him, that he should do anything unhonestly with her. (And Amnon greatly burned for her, so that he was sick for her love. But since she was a virgin, it was hard for him to do anything dishonourable to her.)
2 Samuel 13:2 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
2 And Amnon hath distress -- even to become sick, because of Tamar his sister, for she [is] a virgin, and it is hard in the eyes of Amnon to do anything to her.
And here is verse 4
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Samuel%2013:4
2 Samuel 13:4 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 And he said to him, “Why are you, the king’s son, becoming thinner day after day? Will you not tell me?”
Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (NLV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 He said to Amnon, “O son of the king, why are you so sad from day to day? Will you not tell me?” Amnon said to him, “I am in love with Tamar, the sister of my brother Absalom.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (NLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a king look so dejected morning after morning?”
So Amnon told him, “I am in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (NRSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 He said to him, “O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?” Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (NRSVA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 He said to him, ‘O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?’ Amnon said to him, ‘I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.’
2 Samuel 13:4 (NRSVACE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 He said to him, ‘O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?’ Amnon said to him, ‘I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.’
2 Samuel 13:4 (NRSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 He said to him, “O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?” Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
Shmuel Bais 13:4 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 And he said unto him, Why art thou, being Ben HaMelech, becoming dal (weak, wretched) from day to day? Wilt thou not tell me? And Amnon said unto him, Ani ohev (I love) Tamar achot Avshalom achi.
2 Samuel 13:4 (RSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 And he said to him, “O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?” Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Ab?salom’s sister.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (RSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 And he said to him, “O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?” Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Ab?salom’s sister.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (VOICE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
Jonadab: 4 Son of the great king, why do you look so tired and run-down every day? Won’t you tell me?
Amnon: It’s Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister. I’m in love with her.
2 Samuel 13:4 (WEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 He said to him, “Why, son of the king, are you so sad from day to day? Won’t you tell me?”
Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
2 Samuel 13:4 (WYC) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 Which said to Amnon, Son of the king, why art thou made feeble so by leanness, by all days? why showest thou not to me? (And he said to Amnon, Son of the king, why art thou made so weak and thin, day after day? why not tellest thou to me?) And Amnon said to him, I love Tamar, the sister of my brother Absalom.
2 Samuel 13:4 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
4 and saith to him, `Wherefore [art] thou thus lean, O king's son, morning by morning? dost thou not declare to me?' And Amnon saith to him, `Tamar -- sister of Absalom my brother -- I am loving.'
The point is you can't accuse the inspired authors of misrepresenting the ACTUAL state of Ammon. The idiot was lovesick and probably depressed as such, and this was easily noticeable by those close to him. Bible says Ammon was sick...Ammon was sick. In fact, the Bible in all those translations of verse 2 EXPLAINS why he was sick. And this is emphasized in verse 4 by the answer Ammon himself gives when aksd WHY he looks horrible. So the inspired editor records Ammon's state and its cause as well as Ammon's explanation for his state. That is not enough to deter Nuff Sed who can't read a single sentence in Hebrew from CONTRADICTING scriptures by arguing that Ammon was NOT sick. Ammon not being sick would prove that the Bible bears errors presented as facts. Nuff Sed is prepared to abandon scriptural integrity to support her beloved heresies.
I have highlighted Young's Literal Translation in red because it as much as is humanely possible renders verses in their original state and tenses. Comes in handy when examining 'problem' verses
Bible says Samuel spoke, Samuel did speak past death. Otherwise the Bible is lying
Back to Saul. Is it not rather strange that Saul in attempting to reach to the dead Samuel believed that Samuel's spirit survived his death? This is like Nuff Sed contacting her dead great grandmother through a seance. Absurd since she believes the grandmother ceased to exist at death
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In addition, Lady nuff sed, you based your belief in soul sleep (please correct me if I'm wrong) on Genesis and the story of the fall.
From what I understand, this is the KEY for you: God said to Adam, "The day you shall eat of it, you will surely die". And then the devil comes around and says, "Did God really say?" Hence, you believe that believing that a soul is immortal is following the Devil's word and denying God's word.
In the Bible, there is more than one kind of death:
1) There is the spiritual death of sin, separation of man from God, which is what happened to Adam the very moment he sinned and realized that he was naked.
2) There is the physical death of the body which was the consequence of the first death (sin), showing that the sin affected Adam's nature and even the rest of nature that was made for Adam.
3) There is the eternal death which is damnation, PERMANENT separation from God unlike the first spiritual death which is only temporary or reversible.
Now, ALL these three DEATHS came to man (Adam and Eve and their descendants) because of Adam's disobedience, Hence God's warning to Adam was shown to be true.
My question: Why do you think this understanding contradicts the story of the Fall? I would like to understand why soul sleep is for you, the ONLY way you can read that passage.
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Vooke, you have perfected the selective quotation of verses out of context. Casual reading of the Bible will not suffice. In this case, you have selected out the verses that work against your theology. Sadly, you have sucked in Kababe who innocently trundles along and claims Amnon "fell ill". I'll remind you once again, please read in context. Sometimes that demands reading from the beginning to the end of a chapter, or comparing the verse in question to others in another chapter, here a little, there a little. Scripture interprets itself. Amnon pretended to be ill, and the Bible says as much.
2Samuel 13
1 After this Absalom the son of David had a lovely sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her. 2 Amnon was so distressed over his sister Tamar that he became sick; for she was a virgin. And it was improper for Amnon to do anything to her. 3 But Amnon had a friend whose name was Jonadab the son of Shimeah, David’s brother. Now Jonadab was a very crafty man. 4 And he said to him, “Why are you, the king’s son, becoming thinner day after day? Will you not tell me?”
Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
5 So Jonadab said to him, “Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill. And when your father comes to see you, say to him, ‘Please let my sister Tamar come and give me food, and prepare the food in my sight, that I may see it and eat it from her hand.’” 6 Then Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill; and when the king came to see him, Amnon said to the king, “Please let Tamar my sister come and make a couple of cakes for me in my sight, that I may eat from her hand.”
Selecting out the verses you don't like is what is causing you to misunderstand the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, as well as the contextual issue of salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
How readest thou my brother/sister?
Casual reading of I Sam 28 can lead to the misunderstanding that it was Samuel speaking to Saul. I'll demonstrate that once again shortly.
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Nuff sed,
You mean this?
Amnon and Tamar
13 After this Absalom the son of David had a lovely sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her. 2 Amnon was so distressed over his sister Tamar that he became sick; for she was a virgin. And it was improper for Amnon to do anything to her. 3 But Amnon had a friend whose name was Jonadab the son of Shimeah, David’s brother. Now Jonadab was a very crafty man. 4 And he said to him, “Why are you, the king’s son, becoming thinner day after day? Will you not tell me?”
Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
5 So Jonadab said to him, “Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill. And when your father comes to see you, say to him, ‘Please let my sister Tamar come and give me food, and prepare the food in my sight, that I may see it and eat it from her hand.’” 6 Then Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill; and when the king came to see him, Amnon said to the king, “Please let Tamar my sister come and make a couple of cakes for me in my sight, that I may eat from her hand.”
Nuff Sed, it is clear you are connecting two things here that are distinct.
In the first, Amnon is sick, alright, just as the Bible says. His sickness is from his love of Tamar and his inability to have her. This is what we recognize today as depression, even the "growing thinner daily" can come from stress. There's nothing at all off or non-factual about the bible calling this a sickness (of the love of a woman) at all. However, this does not mean he had a bodily ailmenti that rendered him bed-ridden. One is clearly a psychological phenomenon... that today's best psychology recognizes easily. STRESS ;) with physical symptoms, but not the other.
In the second bit where he plots to rape his sister, he is pretending to have an illness he does not have. That does not mean that he did not suffer from that malady of the heart that had caused him to set up this plot with a fake illness in the first place. He basically pretended to be bed-ridden to justify being fed by his sister. So again, there is no contradiction whatsoever. The way I see it:
1) Ammon was depressed because he had unrequited love of his sister. He was SICK ;D
2) Ammon however did NOT have a malady that rendered him bed-ridden, or his sickness did not rise to that level of making him bed-ridden.
3) In order to "cure" his true sickness (no. 1), he faked the illness no.2 and used it to manipulate David into ordering Tamar into his chamber where he took her by force.
If you are saying that When the Bible first says Annon was sick with his sister, that this was not factual, this is wrong. It was factual. Your problem is that you narrow the definition of "sick" to exclude even psychological illnesses like what Annon clearly was going through which have psychosomatic effects.
Annon could only pretend to be ill to the extent that he was NOT ill, this means that when he lay in bed, he was faking an illness or a level of illness that he did not actually suffer. It does not mean that he was not sick at all. Just not sick with the one he was faking or to the extent that he was pretending to be. His true sickness that he DID have did not compel him to lie in bed unable to eat anything.
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In addition, Lady nuff sed, you based your belief in soul sleep (please correct me if I'm wrong) on Genesis and the story of the fall.
From what I understand, this is the KEY for you: God said to Adam, "The day you shall eat of it, you will surely die". And then the devil comes around and says, "Did God really say?" Hence, you believe that believing that a soul is immortal is following the Devil's word and denying God's word.
In the Bible, there is more than one kind of death:
1) There is the spiritual death of sin, separation of man from God, which is what happened to Adam the very moment he sinned and realized that he was naked.
2) There is the physical death of the body which was the consequence of the first death (sin), showing that the sin affected Adam's nature and even the rest of nature that was made for Adam.
3) There is the eternal death which is damnation, PERMANENT separation from God unlike the first spiritual death which is only temporary or reversible.
Now, ALL these three DEATHS came to man (Adam and Eve and their descendants) because of Adam's disobedience, Hence God's warning to Adam was shown to be true.
My question: Why do you think this understanding contradicts the story of the Fall? I would like to understand why soul sleep is for you, the ONLY way you can read that passage.
Kababe,
Yes, I base my understanding of life and death on Genesis, and Exodus right through to Revelation. I Sam 28 is included. When I talk about reading in context, it is not mere words. I mean it because the Bible interprets itself.
Isaiah 28:9-10
“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”
Back to Saul and Samuel, let's set the scene first.
After King Saul had disobeyed God, an evil spirit from the Lord distressed him (I Sam 16:14-15). Samuel refused to see him and “the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.” Eventually Samuel died. By then, Saul “had put those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.” But his advisers told him there was a witch in Endor whom he could consult.
In Saul’s meeting with the witch of Endor, note that Saul said “... divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary on the word "up"or, alah, mentions that “Basically, alah suggests movement from a lower to a higher place. That is the emphasis in (Gen. 2:6) (the first occurrence of the word), which reports that Eden was watered by a mist or stream that “went up” over the ground.”
[If we were to go by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, saints are in heaven, or Abraham's bosom. So Samuel would have descended from heaven, rather than being brought up from the earth.]
In v12, the figure appears to the witch of Endor and “she cried with a loud voice” This probably means she she was terrified at what she then saw. When Saul asked her what she saw she replied that “... I saw gods ascending out of the earth.” Some versions (e..g. NKJV) say she saw "a spirit ascending out of the earth". We can understand that the witch was familiar with Samuel, so if indeed it was Samuel she saw, she would have said, here he is, not gods or spirit. And show would not be stunned or terrified by a familiar person, after all, Samuel was not Terminator II. She was clearly horrified by what she saw.
AGAIN NOTE: If this was Samuel's soul and Samuel was a saint (I Sam 12), he should have descended from heaven, not ascended up from the earth.
Now notice Saul's reaction:
He asks her what she is seeing (v13-14). He also asks her what form, which the woman describes as an old man covered in a mantle.
"And Saul perceived that it was Samuel..." In other words, Saul was not seeing the apparition.
That Saul saw nothing is clear from the biblical text as he asked the witch “... what form is he of ...” The witch then described what she saw and then Saul “perceived” that it was Saul.
This brings us to the word "medium". It means a "channel". It would be strange for God would allow His dead prophet to be used by a king He has rejected. It would also be very strange for God to allow a witch to summon his departed servant's "soul" from under His throne (going by Vooke's interpretation of Rev 6:9).
Verse 15-19 is the conversation with the god/spirit figure that Saul perceived to be Samuel.
The opening of the conversation is very telling. Apparently, the spirit is annoyed that Saul had "disturbed" it. Basically, it had been there "resting" all that time (and not in heaven according to the theology). If it was indeed Samuel, why was he not in heaven like other souls of godly men? This was not Samuel, because he was DEAD, knowing nothing, having no knowledge of anything to do with the living, waiting for the resurrection.
The apparition goes on and tells Saul the truth about the battle ahead. This should not surprise us because Satan spoke the "truth" in Eden (Gen 3) and quoted the Bible to Jesus in Matthew 4. Do not forget that each time the devil quoted scripture, it was selective and clearly intending to mislead and to deceive. Eve fell for his deception, and had the Savior fallen for his truthful lies in the wilderness, the salvation of man would have been in total jeopardy.
NOTE: Saul knew he was going to consult a witch against God's command. He knew God had rejected him and had refused to answer him even by the prophets. If the conscious, immortal soul theology were true, here would be a case where God succumbs to Saul's machinations and answers him by sending His prophet (from heaven). If Samuel had refused to see Saul in life, for what good reason would he be visiting him in death (if it were at all possible)?
Lastly, and this is extremely important in the light of the story of salvation. We know from Genesis and John 11 that God is the Source of life. We also know from Genesis and the gospels that Satan is the source of death.
John 10:
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
The immortal, conscious soul theology completely rubbishes this statement by Christ Himself. Worse, it robs God of this central life-giving attribute and falsely attributes it to Satan. It implies that by necromancy, sorcery and divination by those with "familiar spirits" Satan can raise dead people to life. This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive (what a ridiculous thing to say) does away with the story of salvation and perpetuates the first deception of Gen 3.
Please read Psalm 6:5; 78:39; 88:10:12; 103:14-16; 115:17; 146:4, Job 7:9-10; 10:18; 14:12,21, Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-10, Isaiah 26:14; 38:18 for further edification. Have a blessed, truthful weekend and a Happy Sabbath.
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@ nuff sedd
Can you explain to me in about 4 sentences what soul sleep means, I have a problem when it takes inshas to explain a simple point and at the end of it, nothing is clear.
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To condense into four sentences the most crucial concept dealt with in 66 books of the Bible would be great disservice to God's Word. Read my post above, dear Mya88. Have a Happy Sabbath!
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Nuff Sed,
You misrepresent me and then attack the misrepresentation. That is intellectual dishonesty and the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Why so? I will simply aks you to PROVE that I said so and you have none. I demand an apology for this
Strawman argument again
1. Where did I say that Abraham's Bosom is heaven?
Luke 16 talks of Abraham's Bosom and nothing about the LOCATION of the place. So whether Saul was brought up or down or sideways, is IRRELEVANT. This is the consequence of intellectual and spiritual shallowness and believeing that a quick Google search can impart wisdom
2. Why was the witch scared? She was scared because from whatever she summoned, she knew that was Saul in disguise and Saul had issued decrees against all witches. She was like those cops nabbed by EACC taking bribes...ANYTHING ELSE you are reading into this is UNSUPPORTED and product of heretical fertile imagination hell bent on clinging to false doctrines. Read exactly what she said to Saul next to confirm this.
3. Revelation 6 :9 is an extremely dumb excuse to borrow to prove that Samuel should have been in heaven because it identifies Christian matyrs. Was Samuel a martyr and was he killed or did he die naturally?
Now, twist ALL the scriptures you will and ANY CONTEXT you can imagine but explain to us why the scriptures SEVERALLY identifies the spirit as Samuel and nothing remotely resembling the silly and shallow theological acrobatics you are exhibiting
In addition, Lady nuff sed, you based your belief in soul sleep (please correct me if I'm wrong) on Genesis and the story of the fall.
From what I understand, this is the KEY for you: God said to Adam, "The day you shall eat of it, you will surely die". And then the devil comes around and says, "Did God really say?" Hence, you believe that believing that a soul is immortal is following the Devil's word and denying God's word.
In the Bible, there is more than one kind of death:
1) There is the spiritual death of sin, separation of man from God, which is what happened to Adam the very moment he sinned and realized that he was naked.
2) There is the physical death of the body which was the consequence of the first death (sin), showing that the sin affected Adam's nature and even the rest of nature that was made for Adam.
3) There is the eternal death which is damnation, PERMANENT separation from God unlike the first spiritual death which is only temporary or reversible.
Now, ALL these three DEATHS came to man (Adam and Eve and their descendants) because of Adam's disobedience, Hence God's warning to Adam was shown to be true.
My question: Why do you think this understanding contradicts the story of the Fall? I would like to understand why soul sleep is for you, the ONLY way you can read that passage.
Kababe,
Yes, I base my understanding of life and death on Genesis, and Exodus right through to Revelation. I Sam 28 is included. When I talk about reading in context, it is not mere words. I mean it because the Bible interprets itself.
Isaiah 28:9-10
“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”
Back to Saul and Samuel, let's set the scene first.
After King Saul had disobeyed God, an evil spirit from the Lord distressed him (I Sam 16:14-15). Samuel refused to see him and “the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.” Eventually Samuel died. By then, Saul “had put those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.” But his advisers told him there was a witch in Endor whom he could consult.
In Saul’s meeting with the witch of Endor, note that Saul said “... divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary on the word "up"or, alah, mentions that “Basically, alah suggests movement from a lower to a higher place. That is the emphasis in (Gen. 2:6) (the first occurrence of the word), which reports that Eden was watered by a mist or stream that “went up” over the ground.”
[If we were to go by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, saints are in heaven, or Abraham's bosom. So Samuel would have descended from heaven, rather than being brought up from the earth.]
In v12, the figure appears to the witch of Endor and “she cried with a loud voice” This probably means she she was terrified at what she then saw. When Saul asked her what she saw she replied that “... I saw gods ascending out of the earth.” Some versions (e..g. NKJV) say she saw "a spirit ascending out of the earth". We can understand that the witch was familiar with Samuel, so if indeed it was Samuel she saw, she would have said, here he is, not gods or spirit. And show would not be stunned or terrified by a familiar person, after all, Samuel was not Terminator II. She was clearly horrified by what she saw.
AGAIN NOTE: If this was Samuel's soul and Samuel was a saint (I Sam 12), he should have descended from heaven, not ascended up from the earth.
Now notice Saul's reaction:
He asks her what she is seeing (v13-14). He also asks her what form, which the woman describes as an old man covered in a mantle.
"And Saul perceived that it was Samuel..." In other words, Saul was not seeing the apparition.
That Saul saw nothing is clear from the biblical text as he asked the witch “... what form is he of ...” The witch then described what she saw and then Saul “perceived” that it was Saul.
This brings us to the word "medium". It means a "channel". It would be strange for God would allow His dead prophet to be used by a king He has rejected. It would also be very strange for God to allow a witch to summon his departed servant's "soul" from under His throne (going by Vooke's interpretation of Rev 6:9).
Verse 15-19 is the conversation with the god/spirit figure that Saul perceived to be Samuel.
The opening of the conversation is very telling. Apparently, the spirit is annoyed that Saul had "disturbed" it. Basically, it had been there "resting" all that time (and not in heaven according to the theology). If it was indeed Samuel, why was he not in heaven like other souls of godly men? This was not Samuel, because he was DEAD, knowing nothing, having no knowledge of anything to do with the living, waiting for the resurrection.
The apparition goes on and tells Saul the truth about the battle ahead. This should not surprise us because Satan spoke the "truth" in Eden (Gen 3) and quoted the Bible to Jesus in Matthew 4. Do not forget that each time the devil quoted scripture, it was selective and clearly intending to mislead and to deceive. Eve fell for his deception, and had the Savior fallen for his truthful lies in the wilderness, the salvation of man would have been in total jeopardy.
NOTE: Saul knew he was going to consult a witch against God's command. He knew God had rejected him and had refused to answer him even by the prophets. If the conscious, immortal soul theology were true, here would be a case where God succumbs to Saul's machinations and answers him by sending His prophet (from heaven). If Samuel had refused to see Saul in life, for what good reason would he be visiting him in death (if it were at all possible)?
Lastly, and this is extremely important in the light of the story of salvation. We know from Genesis and John 11 that God is the Source of life. We also know from Genesis and the gospels that Satan is the source of death.
John 10:
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
The immortal, conscious soul theology completely rubbishes this statement by Christ Himself. Worse, it robs God of this central life-giving attribute and falsely attributes it to Satan. It implies that by necromancy, sorcery and divination by those with "familiar spirits" Satan can raise dead people to life. This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive (what a ridiculous thing to say) does away with the story of salvation and perpetuates the first deception of Gen 3.
Please read Psalm 6:5; 78:39; 88:10:12; 103:14-16; 115:17; 146:4, Job 7:9-10; 10:18; 14:12,21, Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-10, Isaiah 26:14; 38:18 for further edification. Have a blessed, truthful weekend and a Happy Sabbath.
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To condense into four sentences the most crucial concept dealt with in 66 books of the Bible would be great disservice to God's Word. Read my post above, dear Mya88. Have a Happy Sabbath!
sawa nuff, will do.
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Nuff Sed,
start thinking for once
Why would anybody equate seance/necromancy with resurrection?
The immortal, conscious soul theology completely rubbishes this statement by Christ Himself. Worse, it robs God of this central life-giving attribute and falsely attributes it to Satan. It implies that by necromancy, sorcery and divination by those with "familiar spirits" Satan can raise dead people to life. This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive (what a ridiculous thing to say) does away with the story of salvation and perpetuates the first deception of Gen 3.
Please read Psalm 6:5; 78:39; 88:10:12; 103:14-16; 115:17; 146:4, Job 7:9-10; 10:18; 14:12,21, Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-10, Isaiah 26:14; 38:18 for further edification. Have a blessed, truthful weekend and a Happy Sabbath.
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Nuff sed, I think you have the theology wrong. At least for us, I have never heard of a theology that equated Abraham's bosom with Heaven. From what I was taught, the righteous from before the New Covenant did not go to Heaven straight before Christ had come. The old covenants did not suffice to close the chasm between men and God. They waited for Christ to open heaven to them after his death so that they could enter Heaven. I do not believe that the place/state Jesus depicted with Abraham, lazarus and the rich man is Heaven. Hence, the prophet was resting in the same place as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and all the rest (except probably the prophet Elijah), awaiting the Christ.
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kadame,
we have tons of disagreement between us but I would NEVER misrepresent your stance and then attack it., prove its absurdity, and then declare victory. That is the hallmark of weak arguments.
Everything that flies in the face of this hollow soul-sleep heresy to Nuff Sed is 'out of context' and 'against everything taught from Genesis to Revelation'.
Angels by Nuff Sed's admission from reading Hebrews 1 & 2 are called spirits. That does not prevent them from existing had having consciousness outside the body. And you can bet they will go through judgement. Human spirits on the other hand, it took Nuff Sed so long for her to admit that they depart the body upon death. Somewhat these are merely wind/breath and nothing
And finally yesterday I thought about Nuff Sed's concept of judgement. Angels sin and they wait till judgement. Humans sin,die, dissapear and then during judgement, God RECREATES them to judge them afresh. Their memories being long gone ever since they died, have to be restored (think re-installed) since God can't judge men without memory. Ultimately,what is judged is COMPLETELY different from what sinned; a freshly recreated thing being judged over things it supposedly committed thousands of years ago when it was non-existent! :o
Nuff sed, I think you have the theology wrong. At least for us, I have never heard of a theology that equated Abraham's bosom with Heaven. From what I was taught, the righteous from before the New Covenant did not go to Heaven straight before Christ had come. They waited for Christ to open heaven to them after his death so that they could enter Heaven. I do not believe that the place/state Jesus depicted with Abraham, lazarus and the rich man is Heaven. Hence, the prophet was resting in the same place as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and all the rest (except probably the prophet Elijah), awaiting the Christ.
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kadame,
we have tons of disagreement between us but I would NEVER misrepresent your stance and then attack it., prove its absurdity, and then declare victory. That is the hallmark of weak arguments.
Everything that flies in the face of this hollow soul-sleep heresy to Nuff Sed is 'out of context' and 'against everything taught from Genesis to Revelation'.
Angels by Nuff Sed's admission from reading Hebrews 1 & 2 are called spirits. That does not prevent them from existing had having consciousness outside the body. And you can bet they will go through judgement. Human spirits on the other hand, it took Nuff Sed so long for her to admit that they depart the body upon death. Somewhat these are merely wind/breath and nothing
And finally I thought about Nuff Sed's concept of judgement. Angels sin and they wait till judgement. Humans sin,die, dissapear and then during judgement, God RECREATES them to judge them afresh. Their memories being long gone ever since they died, have to be restored (think re-installed) since God can't judge men without memory. Ultimately,what is judged is COMPLETELY different from what sinned; a freshly recreated thing being judged over things it supposedly committed thousands of years ago!
Nuff sed, I think you have the theology wrong. At least for us, I have never heard of a theology that equated Abraham's bosom with Heaven. From what I was taught, the righteous from before the New Covenant did not go to Heaven straight before Christ had come. They waited for Christ to open heaven to them after his death so that they could enter Heaven. I do not believe that the place/state Jesus depicted with Abraham, lazarus and the rich man is Heaven. Hence, the prophet was resting in the same place as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and all the rest (except probably the prophet Elijah), awaiting the Christ.
That's an EXCELLENT point about angelic beings. They are spirits with full faculties of intelligence, will and terrible power. It shows that simply being bodiless does not equate to being unconscious, unknowing etc. In fact, spiritual beings are by nature of a higher nature than material beings, God himself is a spirit. Nuff sed, this is an excellent analogy, what say you? Why would the highest part of our nature be unable to have the two spiritual faculties of intellect and will that ALL the spiritual beings we know, including GOD himself, have?
Another thing, @nuff sed, WHAT do you believe separates us from animals if not our immortal souls? Per your theology, we die exactly the same way as any animal and we have nothing at all about our nature that makes as different. Why do you think God created Adam differently or in a special way, himself breathing into him...what is so special about this description in Genesis of life breathed by God himself into Adam, since you basically think it was exactly the same kind of life as the life the animals have--fully material/physical? In what sense is man said to have been made in God's image? Do you think that refers to our DNA/bodies or something deeper about us that no animal has?
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also, the point vooke makes about the consequences of soul sleep....basically you stop existing. So why would God punish the future you who never did the things the present you is doing? Seems highly unjust, if you ask me. If God is to judge you, it means you must retain a continual connection with your present life as you live it, else that future you will be a totally different creature, not you.
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kadame,
am certain you will make an excellent wakili
You really defend whatever position you subscribe to gallantry. Read this Nuff Sed quote;
This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive
The reason soul-sleep heresy believers get it wrong is their definition of DEATH is fatally flawed.
Here is Nuff Sed's logic broken down
1. DEATH is TOTAL permanent INACTIVITY on any PART of the dead
2. A conscious and ACTIVE soul/spirit of a dead man like say the Rich man in the parable is NOT DEAD.
Conclusion
if spirit/soul of the dead are conscious and animated,then the dead are very much alive not dead
So to them, Moses at transfiguration was either a 'vision' or his resurrected self ( If he underwent spiritual resurrection as opposed the Lazarus grade resuscitation, he is the true First Born from the Dead and not Jesus!!!- Rev 1:4,Col 1:18, Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20.....he can be anything BUT NOT his spirit since he is recorded to have died hundreds/thousands of years before and this contradicts 'everything from Genesis to Revelation')
A good question at this point should be, what is death?
A Secondary question to this is, is having a conscious soul/spirit AFTER death incompatible with your concept of death? If yes, how so?
Soul immortality troubles soul-sleep heretics endlessly. Yet they have no problem with angels/spirit beings immortality. Let's assume angels fell 6000 years ago. They are still alive reserved against judgement. Why can't a human spirit be immortal?
Note there is another closely related heresy called annihilationism- the idea that the judgement is not eternal but temporal since the lake of fire burns up spirits after sometime.
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Yes, I think the crux is the definition of death. Most Christians would define death as separation of the soul from the body. Nuff sed believes death means ceasing to exist completely. That's where the disagreement lies. When she returns from the Sabbath, she can perhaps explain why she equates death to inexistence.
I know the belief you described, though I didn't know it had a name. SDAs are my family, good people, very moral, take God business very seriously, so I do know some of those beliefs that set them apart from other protestant churches. Another one is the belief that St. Michael the Archangel is Jesus. JW use this to say that the son was not really divine, but I know that SDAs are Trinitarians and do not deny either the trinity or the divinity of Christ, so I am not sure how equating the Archangel with Christ came about. maybe its not all SDAs but there are some SDAs who equate the archangel Michael to Jesus.
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kadame,
what do you make of this incidence?
Acts 23:6-9New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. 8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. 9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees’ party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.”[a]
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They say a spirit or an angel....did they distinguish between them? Seems they don't exactly have to mean the same thing. They must have been referring to Paul's claim to have met the risen Christ. Maybe the Pharisees assumed Christ was dead, hence a spirit.
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For those who dispute the duality of man, could you please explain Genesis 1:26:
... Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
If man was just the physical body where would the image and likeness with the creator be?
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Sadduccees eerily remind me of soul sleep heretics
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@Pastor, once the question on man’s duality is settled, I would like to hear your opinion on the next logical questions:
1)When does the soul/spirit enter the body?
2)Where is the soul/spirit before joining the physical body?
What does the scripture (REVEALED word) say about this?
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Omega,
WHEN
The Bible is silent on this question but that has not stopped men from speculating. Jews at some point thought/believed it happened as the newly born breathed its first. This is probably due to the words spirit and breath being synonyms or etymologically related. vooke places it earlier in the pregnancy and MY reasons are thus;
1. There are several verses which point to God's active hand during the pregnancy such as Psalms 139:2, Jeremiah 1:5
2. In Exodus 21:22-25, inducing a miscarriage in a pregnant woman maliciously or not attracted massive penalties up to death. So the unborn are treated as humans and this would only make sense if indeed they are human (spirit and body)
3. In Ecclesiastes, we know the spirit departs the body on death. This means the body is incapable of life without the spirit. Since th unborn are clearly alive and kicking, I don't see how they can do that without the spirit
WHERE WAS THE SPIRITS BEFORE BEING PUT INTO MAN
This is a leading question. It presumes they was somewhere WITHOUT scriptural backing. An unscriptural question that then pretends to respect scriptures is a contradiction. What if God creates them and plants them in the womb?
I favor this over pre-existing human spirits, an idea embraced by Mormons. Again, here are my reasons;
1. Ecclesiastes 12 is clear that upon death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. So I know the human spirit comes from God. This is more or less what God breathing into man in Genesis is saying; God is the source. Now, in Jeremiah 1, God tells him that He KNEW him BEFORE he was born....the word KNOW would be out of place if Jeremiah was with God before he was born...it should read, 'I was WITH you before I formed you'. Doesn't make much sense
2. Angels are spirits and they fell into sin. So human spirits are equally capable of sinning. In Revelation and elsewhere in the scriptures, the ONLY judgement we read of is of men and angels. Heaven after judgement is depicted with just angels and men. This convinces me that there are no unborn human spirits out there who never sinned or who sinned and was damned, otherwise, they would have been mentioned. In short, the entire body of scriptures argues strongly against pre-existing human spirits
@Pastor, once the question on man’s duality is settled, I would like to hear your opinion on the next logical questions:
1)When does the soul/spirit enter the body?
2)Where is the soul/spirit before joining the physical body?
What does the scripture (REVEALED word) say about this?
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The soul isn't anywhere before conception as it does not pre-exist the body. Christians do not believe in reincarnation or anything of the sort that has souls coming before their body. God made Adam from the earth/soil and breathed his soul into him. However, for babies we must believe that the soul is present at conception. Jesus was fully present in his mother's womb the moment she became pregnant and St. John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb at the sound of Jesus' mother, having been "chokozwad" with the Holy Spirit. I'm sure the creature leaping with joy that God was nearby was not just an animal but a soul/spirit that was sensitive to the presence of divinity. sure the Bible indicates even inanimate objects can "praise" God, but this little babe was overwhelmed with the Spirit and I have never heard where this happens to an animal. :D
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I hear you … the revealed word doesn’t duel much on this subject.
In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul talks of the third heaven:
“…. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter”
Note the emphasis on “out of the body” - this is another clear example of the scripture’s depiction of the duality nature of man.
From this verse we learn that the third heaven is the paradise and presumably this is the final resting place for souls that are with GOD.
What about the first and second heavens? Doesn’t this raise the possibility of existence of souls in the first or/and second heaven even though they are not in paradise, meaning they are not with GOD? In that case wouldn’t Jeremiah 1 ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you"), also make sense with the idea of pre-existence of souls?
Genesis 1 also describes heaven in plural - " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". We need to examine the purpose of multiple heavens.
Omega,
WHEN
The Bible is silent on this question but that has not stopped men from speculating. Jews at some point thought/believed it happened as the newly born breathed its first. This is probably due to the words spirit and breath being synonyms or etymologically related. vooke places it earlier in the pregnancy and MY reasons are thus;
1. There are several verses which point to God's active hand during the pregnancy such as Psalms 139:2, Jeremiah 1:5
2. In Exodus 21:22-25, inducing a miscarriage in a pregnant woman maliciously or not attracted massive penalties up to death. So the unborn are treated as humans and this would only make sense if indeed they are human (spirit and body)
3. In Ecclesiastes, we know the spirit departs the body on death. This means the body is incapable of life without the spirit. Since th unborn are clearly alive and kicking, I don't see how they can do that without the spirit
WHERE WAS THE SPIRITS BEFORE BEING PUT INTO MAN
This is a leading question. It presumes they was somewhere WITHOUT scriptural backing. An unscriptural question that then pretends to respect scriptures is a contradiction. What if God creates them and plants them in the womb?
I favor this over pre-existing human spirits, an idea embraced by Mormons. Again, here are my reasons;
1. Ecclesiastes 12 is clear that upon death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. So I know the human spirit comes from God. This is more or less what God breathing into man in Genesis is saying; God is the source. Now, in Jeremiah 1, God tells him that He KNEW him BEFORE he was born....the word KNOW would be out of place if Jeremiah was with God before he was born...it should read, 'I was WITH you before I formed you'. Doesn't make much sense
2. Angels are spirits and they fell into sin. So human spirits are equally capable of sinning. In Revelation and elsewhere in the scriptures, the ONLY judgement we read of is of men and angels. Heaven after judgement is depicted with just angels and men. This convinces me that there are no unborn human spirits out there who never sinned or who sinned and was damned, otherwise, they would have been mentioned. In short, the entire body of scriptures argues strongly against pre-existing human spirits
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Omega,
On Jeremiah, I have shared with you WHY God knowing Jeremiah is not equivalent to a pre-existing Jeremiah... Read Revelation closely as it is the best description we have of heaven and tell me where unborn human spirits fit. The idea of pre-existing human spirits is so strange to the 66 Books of the Bible that anybody who subscribes to that MUST necessarily borrow from extra-Biblical sources to justify their doctrines. For instance, Mormons have Joseph Smith revelations Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants or something..
In Genesis when you study the context of the word heavens, in one way it is simply the atmosphere where birds can fly, on another, it is the outer space with stars. So the first and second heavens in Corinthians may as well be the atmosphere and outer,space.
I have heard theories that they represent the spiritual world but without proof,those are conjectures