Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?

[vooke]

kadame,
am certain you will make an excellent wakili
You really defend whatever position you subscribe to gallantry. Read this Nuff Sed quote;

This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive

The reason soul-sleep heresy believers get it wrong is their definition of DEATH is fatally flawed.
Here is Nuff Sed's logic broken down
1. DEATH is TOTAL permanent INACTIVITY on any PART of the dead
2. A conscious and ACTIVE soul/spirit of a dead man like say the Rich man in the parable is NOT DEAD.

Conclusion
if spirit/soul of the dead are conscious and animated,then the dead are very much alive not dead

So to them, Moses at transfiguration was either a 'vision' or his resurrected self ( If he underwent spiritual resurrection as opposed the Lazarus grade resuscitation, he is the true First Born from the Dead and not Jesus!!!- Rev 1:4,Col 1:18, Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20.....he can be anything BUT NOT his spirit since he is recorded to have died hundreds/thousands of years before  and this contradicts 'everything from Genesis to Revelation')

A good question at this point should be, what is death?
A Secondary question to this is, is having a conscious soul/spirit AFTER death incompatible with your concept of death? If yes, how so?

Soul immortality troubles soul-sleep heretics endlessly. Yet they have no problem with angels/spirit beings immortality. Let's assume angels fell 6000 years ago. They are still alive reserved against judgement. Why can't a human spirit be immortal?

Note there is another closely related heresy called annihilationism- the idea that the judgement is not eternal but temporal since the lake of fire burns up spirits after sometime.

[Kababe]

Yes, I think the crux is the definition of death. Most Christians would define death as separation of the soul from the body. Nuff sed believes death means ceasing to exist completely. That's where the disagreement lies. When she returns from the Sabbath, she can perhaps explain why she equates death to inexistence.

I know the belief you described, though I didn't know it had a name. SDAs are my family, good people, very moral, take God business very seriously, so I do know some of those beliefs that set them apart from other protestant churches. Another one is the belief that St. Michael the Archangel is Jesus. JW use this to say that the son was not really divine, but I know that SDAs are Trinitarians and do not deny either the trinity or the divinity of Christ, so I am not sure how equating the Archangel with Christ came about. maybe its not all SDAs but there are some SDAs who equate the archangel Michael to Jesus.

[vooke]

kadame,
what do you make of this incidence?

[Kababe]

They say a spirit or an angel....did they distinguish between them? Seems they don't exactly have to mean the same thing. They must have been referring to Paul's claim to have met the risen Christ. Maybe the Pharisees assumed Christ was dead, hence a spirit.

[omega]

[vooke]

Sadduccees eerily remind me of soul sleep heretics

[omega]

[vooke]

Omega,

WHEN
The Bible is silent on this question but that has not stopped men from speculating. Jews at some point thought/believed it happened as the newly born breathed its first. This is probably due to the words spirit and breath being synonyms or etymologically related. vooke places it earlier in the pregnancy and MY reasons are thus;
1. There are several verses which point to God's active hand during the pregnancy such as Psalms 139:2, Jeremiah 1:5
2. In Exodus 21:22-25, inducing a miscarriage in a pregnant woman maliciously or not attracted massive penalties up to death. So the unborn are treated as humans and this would only make sense if indeed they are human (spirit and body)
3. In Ecclesiastes, we know the spirit departs the body on death. This means the body is incapable of life without the spirit. Since th unborn are clearly alive and kicking, I don't see how they can do that without the spirit

WHERE WAS THE SPIRITS BEFORE BEING PUT INTO MAN
This is a leading question. It presumes they was somewhere WITHOUT scriptural backing. An unscriptural question that then pretends to respect scriptures is a contradiction. What if God creates them and plants them in the womb?
I favor this over pre-existing human spirits, an idea embraced by Mormons. Again, here are my reasons;

1. Ecclesiastes 12 is clear that upon death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. So I know the human spirit comes from God. This is more or less what God breathing into man in Genesis is saying; God is the source. Now, in Jeremiah 1, God tells him that He KNEW him BEFORE he was born....the word KNOW would be out of place if Jeremiah was with God before he was born...it should read, 'I was WITH you before I formed you'. Doesn't make much sense

2. Angels are spirits and they fell into sin. So human spirits are equally capable of sinning. In Revelation and elsewhere in the scriptures, the ONLY judgement we read of is of men and angels. Heaven after judgement is depicted with just angels and men. This convinces me that there are no unborn human spirits out there who never sinned or who sinned and was damned, otherwise, they would have been mentioned. In short, the entire body of scriptures argues strongly against pre-existing human spirits

[Kababe]

The soul isn't anywhere before conception as it does not pre-exist the body. Christians do not believe in reincarnation or anything of the sort that has souls coming before their body. God made Adam from the earth/soil and breathed his soul into him. However, for babies we must believe that the soul is present at conception. Jesus was fully present in his mother's womb the moment she became pregnant and St. John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb at the sound of Jesus' mother, having been "chokozwad" with the Holy Spirit. I'm sure the creature leaping with joy that God was nearby was not just an animal but a soul/spirit that was sensitive to the presence of divinity. sure the Bible indicates even inanimate objects can "praise" God, but this little babe was overwhelmed with the Spirit and I have never heard where this happens to an animal.

[omega]

out of the body third heavenParadiseheavens and the earth". We need to examine the purpose of multiple heavens.

Omega,

WHEN
The Bible is silent on this question but that has not stopped men from speculating. Jews at some point thought/believed it happened as the newly born breathed its first. This is probably due to the words spirit and breath being synonyms or etymologically related. vooke places it earlier in the pregnancy and MY reasons are thus;
1. There are several verses which point to God's active hand during the pregnancy such as Psalms 139:2, Jeremiah 1:5
2. In Exodus 21:22-25, inducing a miscarriage in a pregnant woman maliciously or not attracted massive penalties up to death. So the unborn are treated as humans and this would only make sense if indeed they are human (spirit and body)
3. In Ecclesiastes, we know the spirit departs the body on death. This means the body is incapable of life without the spirit. Since th unborn are clearly alive and kicking, I don't see how they can do that without the spirit

WHERE WAS THE SPIRITS BEFORE BEING PUT INTO MAN
This is a leading question. It presumes they was somewhere WITHOUT scriptural backing. An unscriptural question that then pretends to respect scriptures is a contradiction. What if God creates them and plants them in the womb?
I favor this over pre-existing human spirits, an idea embraced by Mormons. Again, here are my reasons;

1. Ecclesiastes 12 is clear that upon death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. So I know the human spirit comes from God. This is more or less what God breathing into man in Genesis is saying; God is the source. Now, in Jeremiah 1, God tells him that He KNEW him BEFORE he was born....the word KNOW would be out of place if Jeremiah was with God before he was born...it should read, 'I was WITH you before I formed you'. Doesn't make much sense

2. Angels are spirits and they fell into sin. So human spirits are equally capable of sinning. In Revelation and elsewhere in the scriptures, the ONLY judgement we read of is of men and angels. Heaven after judgement is depicted with just angels and men. This convinces me that there are no unborn human spirits out there who never sinned or who sinned and was damned, otherwise, they would have been mentioned. In short, the entire body of scriptures argues strongly against pre-existing human spirits

[vooke]

Omega,
On Jeremiah, I have shared with you WHY God knowing Jeremiah is not equivalent to a pre-existing Jeremiah... Read Revelation closely as it is the best description we have of heaven and tell me where unborn human spirits fit. The idea of pre-existing human spirits is so strange to the 66 Books of the Bible that anybody who subscribes to that MUST necessarily borrow from extra-Biblical sources to justify their doctrines. For instance, Mormons have Joseph Smith revelations Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants or something..

In Genesis when you study the context of the word heavens, in one way it is simply the atmosphere where birds can fly, on another, it is the outer space with stars. So the first and second heavens in Corinthians may as well be the atmosphere and outer,space.

I have heard theories that they represent the spiritual world but without proof,those are conjectures