Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Simanova on June 14, 2016, 03:49:37 PM
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Ongoing. Ibrahim reading what I think is a majority decision. But... I have to wait. too much noise in the over-filled chamber
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I think they'll let the lower court decision to stand. In any case the supreme court need to be reconstituted afresh.
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Ibrahim recuses himself. No quorum
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Ibrahim recuses himself. No quorum
What does that mean, do they go home or do they serve till 74?
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Ojwang supports Rawal, sets aside C.J's orders.
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We are still listening for surprises. However it is clear that with Ibrahim having recused himself, the appeal cannot be heard by this bench. What I need to hear from CJ and Smokin is whether the date of hearing is returned to the 27th.
I think Ojwang is naturalist :D
Ibrahim recuses himself. No quorum
What does that mean, do they go home or do they serve till 74?
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Interesting. So we might have 2-2. That leaves a hung supreme court.
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Interesting. So we might have 2-2. That leaves a hung supreme court.
Once one judge recused himself there can be no SCK decision as the minimum number of judges for quorum is 5
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Indeed. What if Rawal doesn't recluse herself from her case :)
Once one judge recused himself there can be no SCK decision as the minimum number of judges for quorum is 5
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Indeed. What if Rawal doesn't recluse herself from her case :)
Once one judge recused himself there can be no SCK decision as the minimum number of judges for quorum is 5
Is that even possible? Si someone will just rush to court and try to force her to disqualify herself. I think Mutunga will extend his stay
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Yeah the failed Dr Mutunga will most likely rethink his decision to retire. He is basically leaving a judiciary without a head. It a rudder less mess. I pray we expend the same energy on it like we do on IEBC.
Is that even possible? Si someone will just rush to court and try to force her to disqualify herself. I think Mutunga will extend his stay
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Ojwang is a pompous fart.
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For Rawal - Ojwang
Against - Wanjala, Ibrahim,
Remaining - For Rawal - Njoki (obviously)
Remaining - Against - Chief Justice
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Like I thought Wanjala recuses himself- but that goes against Rawal
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Supreme Court. A perfectly great institution. Filled with the same type of jokers that have rendered emasculated every institution in the country.
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Njoki has a serious problem:
Njoki Ndungu holds that the right to a fair hearing is due to an individual not a government institution like JSC
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The idea of everyone reading their ruling is terrible for optics. They should have had a final ruling. And then each would be given a chance to read their dissenting or consenting opinion.
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Good riddance to "Lady Justice" Pest. Deft handing by Dr. Studs.
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Good riddance to "Lady Justice" Pest. Deft handing by Dr. Studs.
To me the killer was for Rawal to hurriedly ask her counsel to ask for a 21 day stay. :D :D
I laughed when the Mullah retorted: What is there to stay? Muite goes in the very unlikely event that her appeal succeeds, she would be entitled to damages.
Nowrjee: Counsel has suggested that damages be paid...
Muite (Interrupting): I did not suggest... I submitted
Clearly 7 hours going in to the 8th had taken the toll on everybody.
Omtata "loudly" fell asleep prompting the CJ to wake him up when his lonely "consultations" threatened to disrupt. Gatonye listened with his eyes closed.
Njoki exposed herself as intellectually weak. My fears that she lacked the muscle to be on the bench were proven and the earlier she vacates the better. She has been heavily criticized by the majority even though she got support from Ojwang who is campaigning for the CJ post and had to defecate on himself and foam around the mouth Chief Nanga style doing it. If it were a decent country she would resign. But this is Kenya.
For the first time I was able to see Smokin Wanjala in his element. He is clearly C.J Material. Ibrahim is rather weak. However all indications are that it will be Ibrahim. He will start acting from Thursday and it is impossible to deny him the job as he will be the incumbent.
I hope Justice Mumbi Ngugi will apply for the DCJ. She is highly qualified but I fear the hyenas want someone with a clear tribal identity. She is above tribe as Odunga and Lenaola are. Except she has more balls than those two.
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Where can I find the proceedings as they happened?
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Njoki exposed herself as intellectually weak.
That she is. Some of her reasoning has been staggeringly off-base. Obviously she is not going anywhere, but the JSC has, as far as I can tell, quite a good case against her (and the High Court has "cleared" it to go ahead). Another "misconduct" chalk-mark ...
For the first time I was able to see Smokin Wanjala in his element. He is clearly C.J Material.
He's good. The only person on the current court that I see as a worthy replacement of Mutunga. Otherwise, it's the Court of Appeals.
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Where can I find the proceedings as they happened?
Fat chance. The lazy and silly journalists we have along with timid editorial boards all round could never allow that. You can download the copious rulings from all the 5 judges along with the court orders but proceedings are simply not the thing for our judiciary.
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So effectively Tunoi and Rawal are retired. One would hope the rest can follow suit and retire. As of no we are left with Smokin, Ibrahim and Ojwang. Supreme court should have the very best...and It doesnt look like we got any.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClDWDtzVEAAaado.jpg)
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What happens with the Tunoi corruption probe? Does it now become part of the joke that is the Kenyan judicial carousel as a criminal enjoys retirement benefits he is not entitled to?
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I think there is a limbo. They are entitled to an appeal in supreme court. They cannot appeal because 3 of 5 judges reclused themselves. So the appeal has not been heard. So they have to wait until such a time that a proper supreme court can sit, hear their appeal and make a ruling.
What happens with the Tunoi corruption probe? Does it now become part of the joke that is the Kenyan judicial carousel as a criminal enjoys retirement benefits he is not entitled to?
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I think they have lost. Why
For there to be a quorum three new judges have to be recruited.
There are now only two who have declared themselves competent to hear the case - Njoki and Ojwang. Ibrahim and Smokin have recused themselves.
There is no way that number can be reached without replacing Rawal and Tunoi as well as the CJ.
Even then they will not be in the clear for an inefficacious positive result. Why because the majority (all new judges)+ Smokin who did not recuse himself on that issue, could still disqualify Njoki and Ojwang from hearing it thus going back to another lack of quorum in that case.
My advice would be that Rawal and Tunoi go home and use the fact that there was no SCK appeal to lighten their burden. They were out-foxed. When 12 judges rule against you with the real possibility that some of them will end up at the SCK, it is hard to contemplate a victory. In event a High Court of CoA judge who ruled against them is recruited, that seals the case for good as there will never be a quorum of judges not prejudiced.
May be I have missed one or two scenarios but frankly Tunoi and Rawal should start thinking about the country.
I think there is a limbo. They are entitled to an appeal in supreme court. They cannot appeal because 3 of 5 judges reclused themselves. So the appeal has not been heard. So they have to wait until such a time that a proper supreme court can sit, hear their appeal and make a ruling.
What happens with the Tunoi corruption probe? Does it now become part of the joke that is the Kenyan judicial carousel as a criminal enjoys retirement benefits he is not entitled to?
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CJ Mutunga: Supreme court judge Mohamed Ibrahim is the acting president of the supreme court
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClEqGYFWgAEVAnz.jpg)
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Yeah that is right. Their appeal will stay in limbo. They need to cut their "losses" and retire.
I think they have lost. Why
For there to be a quorum three new judges have to be recruited.
There are now only two who have declared themselves competent to hear the case - Njoki and Ojwang. Ibrahim and Smokin have recused themselves.
There is no way that number can be reached without replacing Rawal and Tunoi as well as the CJ.
Even then they will not be in the clear for an inefficacious positive result. Why because the majority (all new judges)+ Smokin who did not recuse himself on that issue, could still disqualify Njoki and Ojwang from hearing it thus going back to another lack of quorum in that case.
My advice would be that Rawal and Tunoi go home and use the fact that there was no SCK appeal to lighten their burden. They were out-foxed. When 12 judges rule against you with the real possibility that some of them will end up at the SCK, it is hard to contemplate a victory. In event a High Court of CoA judge who ruled against them is recruited, that seals the case for good as there will never be a quorum of judges not prejudiced.
May be I have missed one or two scenarios but frankly Tunoi and Rawal should start thinking about the country.
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What happens with the Tunoi corruption probe? Does it now become part of the joke that is the Kenyan judicial carousel as a criminal enjoys retirement benefits he is not entitled to?
There is nothing to legally stop the EACC, DCI, etc. from looking into the criminal aspects of the matter, whether the tribunal finishes its work or disbands. Will that happen? I doubt it. Take a look at how many coppers have been sent home on the basis of questionable income, and consider how many of those simply went off to quietly enjoy their loot.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClEqMTSWQAAR1bB.jpg)
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It's over. Hands over the flag:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClE0jEhUkAEFYjr.jpg)
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The Acting Chief Justice. I wonder if that had something to say about his decision to cut Ojwang and Njoki loose... just a thought :D:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClE0fdWWgAAxlrx.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClE0TH6UoAANHRS.jpg)
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What happens with the Tunoi corruption probe? Does it now become part of the joke that is the Kenyan judicial carousel as a criminal enjoys retirement benefits he is not entitled to?
There is nothing to legally stop the EACC, DCI, etc. from looking into the criminal aspects of the matter, whether the tribunal finishes its work or disbands. Will that happen? I doubt it. Take a look at how many coppers have been sent home on the basis of questionable income, and consider how many of those simply went off to quietly enjoy their loot.
I expect nothing to come of it. And Wanjiku has conditioned herself to accept retirement/quitting in some cases even being grilled as sufficient punishment.
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It's over. Hands over the flag:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClE0jEhUkAEFYjr.jpg)
Ann Amadi exudes dignified statuesque beauty.
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I think nothing will come out of it because Tunoi has turned the tables on his accusers. I guess facts like those are nothing for you guys as your position were pre-hardened. At some point I thought Tunoi was guilty but the last few days I have changed my mind. Tunoi seem to have been a casualty of Mutunga and his gang power scheme. There seem to have been attempt to bribe him but nothing so far suggest they succeeded. If you accept Tunoi was bribed then we must accept the rest of the bench were also bribed.
I expect nothing to come of it. And Wanjiku has conditioned herself to accept retirement/quitting in some cases even being grilled as sufficient punishment.
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I expect nothing to come of it. And Wanjiku has conditioned herself to accept retirement/quitting in some cases even being grilled as sufficient punishment.
"Grilling" seems to be near the extreme end of the scale. The standard level is "record a statement". If things are viewed as really serious, then people might be "quizzed".
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I think nothing will come out of it because Tunoi has turned the tables on his accusers. I guess facts like those are nothing for you guys as your position were pre-hardened. At some point I thought Tunoi was guilty but the last few days I have changed my mind. Tunoi seem to have been a casualty of Mutunga and his gang power scheme.
I expect nothing to come of it. And Wanjiku has conditioned herself to accept retirement/quitting in some cases even being grilled as sufficient punishment.
Nothing will come out of it because it's dead. Does that mean Tunoi is innocent. Not necessarily.
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If you accept Tunoi was bribed then we must accept the rest of the bench were also bribed.
Not necessarily. In "strategic bribery", it suffices to bribe the person who is (or at least "reasonably" claims) to be in a position to sway others, and influencing the "others" need not involve bribing them.
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I expect nothing to come of it. And Wanjiku has conditioned herself to accept retirement/quitting in some cases even being grilled as sufficient punishment.
"Grilling" seems to be near the extreme end of the scale. The standard level is "record a statement". If things are viewed as really serious, then people might be "quizzed".
Yep. For avoidance of doubt. Maybe to deflect accusations of double standards. In a certain societies, Kidero would also be utterly scammed.
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So you think Judges of supreme court can be persuaded by their colleagues not the law, and the facts of the case. Then they are not worthy of being the supreme court judges. All these judges bar a few are eminent scholars...I was reading Ojwang papers in early 90s when my cousin was law student then. We have a problem with our supreme court!
So far Tunoi has come clean. It seem Kiplagat acting at Kidero behest tried to bribe him; they called him twice or several times; but Tunoi refused. His accusers including JSC/Ombusdaman (sp) have come short. The man was vetted recently and passed...despite having been in judiciary since 70s. Kiplagat come to learn that Tunoi had 2,000 acres in Moiben and bingo he had been bribed. Turn out the 2,000 acres was his wife inheritance.
Not necessarily. In "strategic bribery", it suffices to bribe the person who is (or at least "reasonably" claims) to be in a position to sway others, and influencing the "others" need not involve bribing them.
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So you think Judges of supreme court can be persuaded by their colleagues not the law, and the facts of the case. Then they are not worthy of being the supreme court judges. All these judges bar a few are eminent scholars...I was reading Ojwang papers in early 90s when my cousin was law student then. We have a problem with our supreme court!
The first thing to note is that I was making a general point in response to your claim that if one of a group of decision-makers has supposedly been bribed, then all those who participated in a majority decision that involved the bribed person must also have been bribed.
In this specific case and your specific comment: It is not unheard-of for judges to be persuaded by factors other than the law and the facts of a case; and this is, historically, especially so in Kenya. I see no reason to believe that the Kenyan Supreme Court is necessarily immune. As for "eminent scholarship", Kenya actually has a long history in which "eminent scholars" turned out to be quite something else---and that includes judges, attorneys-general, ... all sorts of public office---when put in Eating position.
That you were reading Ojwang's papers in the 1990s tells me only that he has been around for quite some time; longevity alone does not say a great deal. I cannot comment further without reading those papers; nor do I know how he might have changed since then.
As for "problem with our supreme court!". That certainly appears to be the case. Here is your own statement (on this very thread):
Supreme court should have the very best...and It doesnt look like we got any.
and on the other thread:
Supreme court should be totally beyond reproach. Ours are neck deep in serious bribery allegations, power struggles and all sort of mischief.
and
And in any case supreme court has lost it and should be disbanded together with IEBC.
And so on, and so forth. Presumably all that includes Ojwang, whose papers you have been reading since the 90s, when your cousin ...; Njoki, whose mischief you find acceptable; Tunoi, who "so far ... has come clean"; ....
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I agree on one point. Supreme court like the ceasar wife should be beyond reproach. That this has come this far...mean Tunoi tenure is untenable. He might not be criminally guilty but he has been soiled. He cannot buy his reputation back. The same for rest of supreme court judges.
The standard here is just too low..any suspicion and you're out....and Tunoi just cannot pass that muster..the rest may pretend for some more..but I would like the whole lot just resigning. At least Mutunga has bought his job at the civil society circle by just doing that one year before his tenure ends.
They all need to resign because this is bigger than them. The same with IEBC. This is waaaaaaaaay bigger than them. Supreme court most important job is to hear presidential petition..and if they are now reclusing themselves...what will happen when the biggest test come next year.
That doesn't mean I don't emphasize with what I see as machination to kick tunoi or isaac hassan out while they have done nothing to deserve this!
We just need new people starting on a new clean slate.
So you think Judges of supreme court can be persuaded by their colleagues not the law, and the facts of the case. Then they are not worthy of being the supreme court judges. All these judges bar a few are eminent scholars...I was reading Ojwang papers in early 90s when my cousin was law student then. We have a problem with our supreme court!
The first thing to note is that I was making a general point in response to your claim that if one of a group of decision-makers has supposedly been bribed, then all those who participated in a majority decision that involved the bribed person must also have been bribed.
In this specific case and your specific comment: It is not unheard-of for judges to be persuaded by factors other than the law and the facts of a case; and this is, historically, especially so in Kenya. I see no reason to believe that the Kenyan Supreme Court is necessarily immune. As for "eminent scholarship", Kenya actually has a long history in which "eminent scholars" turned out to be quite something else---and that includes judges, attorneys-general, ... all sorts of public office---when put in Eating position.
That you were reading Ojwang's papers in the 1990s tells me only that he has been around for quite some time; longevity alone does not say a great deal. I cannot comment further without reading those papers; nor do I know how he might have changed since then.
As for "problem with our supreme court!". That certainly appear to be the case. Here is your own statement (on this very thread):
Supreme court should have the very best...and It doesnt look like we got any.
and on the other thread:
Supreme court should be totally beyond reproach. Ours are neck deep in serious bribery allegations, power struggles and all sort of mischief.
and
And in any case supreme court has lost it and should be disbanded together with IEBC.
And so on, and so forth. Presumably all that includes Ojwang, whose papers you have been reading since the 90s, when your cousin ...; Njoki, whose mischief you find acceptable; Tunoi, who "so far ... has come clean"; ....
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I mean dude we kicked baraza for what...nose pinching.Tunoi is done. But he has to defend himself coz he he innocent -which I think is brave of him--and to shame the guys who are behind this machination. IEBC post chicken scandal have no legs to stand on.
Some of these positions just required one to be of the very highest integrity and of the greatest luck.
Let hope we get brand new IEBC and Supreme court. It would not hurt if we also get the rest of the constitutional offices on a new slate. That would be a rebirth. A renewal.
The problem the constitution give Uhuru the power to make most of these appointments.
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Let hope we get brand new IEBC and Supreme court.
IEBC: Very possible and very likely. I believe it will happen, and I am astonished that what is going on is actually going on. Surely, it ought to be enough for people to look ahead just a little bit and get on---without drama---with what needs to be done.
Some people have suggested that members of the IEBC should resign, because of Chickengate. Why on earth does anyone expect that in Kenya? If they stick to their guns, they will be bribed sent-off in a costly (not to them!) exercise, and they will get to enjoy all their Chicken wings and whatever came out of any eggs. (Americans have a certain "style" with English and have come up with "twofer" to refer to two-for-the-price-of-one. But not even they seem to have thought of two-for-nothing.) And who's going to chase people who can say a lot on where the bodies (2013) are buried?
Supreme Court: In my view, Mission Impossible XX. People have been fighting tooth-and-nail to stay on until they need to be fitted with dentures, and I don't see them going anywhere. The best that one can expect is that the next three will at least be "adequate" replacements.
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They were out-foxed.
The new story is that Uhuru is the real hero in all that happened. :D
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/how-uhuru-thwarted-camp-machinations-as-cj-mutunga-exited/-/440808/3284398/-/fk70ms/-/index.html