Russian military doctrine is about bombing senseless the enemy into submission. So when you hear some guys saying how Russia was taking care to not harm civilians I even don't reply coz that's like arguing with a toddler who will throw tantrums,if they needed an example they should check Mariupol which has being bombarded to ashes by Russians
Russian military doctrine is about bombing senseless the enemy into submission. So when you hear some guys saying how Russia was taking care to not harm civilians I even don't reply coz that's like arguing with a toddler who will throw tantrums,if they needed an example they should check Mariupol which has being bombarded to ashes by Russians
Russian military doctrine is about bombing senseless the enemy into submission. So when you hear some guys saying how Russia was taking care to not harm civilians I even don't reply coz that's like arguing with a toddler who will throw tantrums,if they needed an example they should check Mariupol which has being bombarded to ashes by Russians
Russian military doctrine is about bombing senseless the enemy into submission. So when you hear some guys saying how Russia was taking care to not harm civilians I even don't reply coz that's like arguing with a toddler who will throw tantrums,if they needed an example they should check Mariupol which has being bombarded to ashes by Russians😆 indeed
Invalid Tweet ID?s=20&t=9yxqz53ckahhCups1rNb8gI counted close to 15 bodies, some of them hogtied - in that link alone. Should we expect to see prosecutions in Russia? I am not holding my breath for that.
The civilian toll is very high but your masters control the media RT that you only watch no one can tell now ,but expect the real toll to be known once Russia vacates from an area they occupied, that's always the case in wars the real death toll is known long after.
You claim to be a military expert now tell me how many civilians have died in Ukraine war and how many military men have died ?Russian military doctrine is about bombing senseless the enemy into submission. So when you hear some guys saying how Russia was taking care to not harm civilians I even don't reply coz that's like arguing with a toddler who will throw tantrums,if they needed an example they should check Mariupol which has being bombarded to ashes by Russians
Invalid Tweet ID?s=20&t=9yxqz53ckahhCups1rNb8gI counted close to 15 bodies, some of them hogtied - in that link alone. Should we expect to see prosecutions in Russia? I am not holding my breath for that.
Like I told noway the toll is much higher but we can't know now,but maybe you comparing the toll to African wars. There a number of factors one Ukraine has war bunkers taht people can take refuge in when being bombarded, Secondly the hotspot areas were quickly evacuated to safer areas west and out of the country before Russian moved in, several factors cant say all now. Don't have time have to get my herd of Dorper sheep back from the fields into the pensRussian military doctrine is about bombing senseless the enemy into submission. So when you hear some guys saying how Russia was taking care to not harm civilians I even don't reply coz that's like arguing with a toddler who will throw tantrums,if they needed an example they should check Mariupol which has being bombarded to ashes by Russians
Njuri, your takes are even more misinformed than dedicated watchers of CNN, yet you're calling people toddlers. :)
Why are the civilian numbers so much fewer than the military?
No moral cowards are in the majority. France and Germany can't wait to buy Russian oil and gas
Like I told noway the toll is much higher but we can't know now,but maybe you comparing the toll to African wars. There a number of factors one Ukraine has war bunkers taht people can take refuge in when being bombarded, Secondly the hotspot areas were quickly evacuated to safer areas west and out of the country before Russian moved in, several factors cant say all now. Don't have time have to get my herd of Dorper sheep back from the fields into the pens
i want to ask. why will Russia leave dead bodies just like that if they know it could be use against it as war crime evidence. like people did not even ask. why. am not justifying the dead bodies but not even a kid will do that and leave evidence.
— deadmen tell no tale (@Itz_Idikko) April 3, 2022
Russians have never cared about civilians in their wars. They just blow them up indiscriminately from a distance. But this one is different because they did it up close. Their hatred of Ukrainians seems visceral.
You could think that they know that this is war crime, but ........Like Trump they are the law.
?s=20&t=1ZDZWJuenqQ3tPOUyU4ybATestimony from a coroner in #Bucha. On Sunday he gathered about 30 bodies, 13 of them with bound hands, shot in head. Showed photos.https://t.co/5PulCzFJUS
— Fred Abrahams (@fredabrahams) April 3, 2022
?s=20&t=qjRX5hLaLcAzz9f2LRT0TAAs a genocide scholar I am an empiricist, I usually dismiss rhetoric. I also take genocide claims with a truckload of salt because activists apply it almost everywhere now.
— Eugene Finkel (@eugene_finkel) April 4, 2022
Not now. There are actions, there is intent. It's as genocide as it gets. Pure, simple and for all to see
?t=ezryoZlIvX7VZRpM7AXsnQ&s=19How ordinary Russians feel about their country invading Ukraine https://t.co/v3OZwjSvam
— Bojan Pancevski (@bopanc) April 4, 2022
Well, I'm reading Russia has protested this as staged and a provocation and called for an emergency Security Council meeting. I'm guessing they will demand an international investigation.
Remembering what happened with Assad's alleged and confirmed (https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/11/570192-both-isil-and-syrian-government-responsible-use-chemical-weapons-un-security) chemical attacks, I'll wait for the UN investigations I expect will be coming after this SC meeting. We were similarly flooded with scenes of horror even then. Best to wait for impartial experts on the scene.
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL/Daesh) was responsible for using sulfur mustard in a September 2016 attack in Umm Hawsh and the Syrian Government was accountable for the release of sarin in an April 2017 attack in Khan Shaykhun, the head of a Security Council-mandated investigation said Tuesday.
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL/Daesh) was responsible for using sulfur mustard in a September 2016 attack in Umm Hawsh and the Syrian Government was accountable for the release of sarin in an April 2017 attack in Khan Shaykhun, the head of a Security Council-mandated investigation said Tuesday.
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL/Daesh) was responsible for using sulfur mustard in a September 2016 attack in Umm Hawsh and the Syrian Government was accountable for the release of sarin in an April 2017 attack in Khan Shaykhun, the head of a Security Council-mandated investigation said Tuesday.
Termie, 2017 was 4 years after Obama lied Assad had used chemical weapons to justify US entering the war. It was found to be a lie. In fact, Trump was president by this time you're referring to here in this quote. Whatever incident you're highlighting there is clearly not the one I've referred to here at all. My point has never been that Assad was a good guy. It was always that the US point-blank lied, which they did. We were flooded with horrific images at that time, 2013, during the hype. And yet those attacks they were trying to use were in fact by their own guys (who they were funding and backing in Syria). The same could very well be happening in Bucha and surrounding areas. Which is why I'm waiting for the experts to turn up, do forensics on those cadavers etc, then we'll know when they died, if they were moved, how they died, etc.
https://www.rt.com/russia/553231-bucha-war-crimes-allegations-denied/ (https://www.rt.com/russia/553231-bucha-war-crimes-allegations-denied/)
The Russian military has firmly denied accusations of mass killings of civilians in Bucha, a Ukrainian town northwest of Kiev. The claims have been raised by Ukraine itself, some Western media outlets and human rights groups, after Moscow had withdrawn its troops from the outskirts of Ukraines capital.
All photographs and video materials published by the Kiev regime, allegedly showing some kind of "crimes" by Russian military personnel in the town of Bucha, Kiev region, are yet another provocation, the Russian Ministry of Defense said Sunday.
Russian troops had been pulled out from the area on March 30, the military said, pointing out that the so-called evidence of crimes in Bucha appeared only on the fourth day after the withdrawal, when Ukrainian intelligence and representatives of Ukrainian television arrived in the town.
Moreover, on March 31 the mayor of Bucha, Anatoly Fedoruk, confirmed in his video address that there was no Russian military in the town, but did not even mention any local residents laying shot in the streets with their hands tied, the Russian military also pointed out.
READ MORE: Zelensky rejected peace offer days before Russian offensive WSJ
Its particularity concerning that all the bodies of people whose images were published by the Kiev regime, after at least four days, have not stiffened, do not have characteristic cadaveric spots, and have fresh blood in their wounds, the military noted, adding that all these inconsistencies show that the whole Bucha affair has been staged by the Kiev regime for Western media, as was the case with the [fake news from the] Mariupol maternity clinic.
https://www.rt.com/russia/553231-bucha-war-crimes-allegations-denied/ (https://www.rt.com/russia/553231-bucha-war-crimes-allegations-denied/)
Deni Deny Deny even after satelitte pics show it
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html
The Russian military has firmly denied accusations of mass killings of civilians in Bucha, a Ukrainian town northwest of Kiev. The claims have been raised by Ukraine itself, some Western media outlets and human rights groups, after Moscow had withdrawn its troops from the outskirts of Ukraines capital.
All photographs and video materials published by the Kiev regime, allegedly showing some kind of "crimes" by Russian military personnel in the town of Bucha, Kiev region, are yet another provocation, the Russian Ministry of Defense said Sunday.
Russian troops had been pulled out from the area on March 30, the military said, pointing out that the so-called evidence of crimes in Bucha appeared only on the fourth day after the withdrawal, when Ukrainian intelligence and representatives of Ukrainian television arrived in the town.
Moreover, on March 31 the mayor of Bucha, Anatoly Fedoruk, confirmed in his video address that there was no Russian military in the town, but did not even mention any local residents laying shot in the streets with their hands tied, the Russian military also pointed out.
READ MORE: Zelensky rejected peace offer days before Russian offensive WSJ
Its particularity concerning that all the bodies of people whose images were published by the Kiev regime, after at least four days, have not stiffened, do not have characteristic cadaveric spots, and have fresh blood in their wounds, the military noted, adding that all these inconsistencies show that the whole Bucha affair has been staged by the Kiev regime for Western media, as was the case with the [fake news from the] Mariupol maternity clinic.
OMG, they denied it!!
Anyway, tell your conspiracy theory source to read up on rigor mortis before they post.
NATO should just Bomb Moscow to smitherings let the fuckers do what they wish. Fuck them to stoneage
April 4 (Reuters) - Russia's foreign ministry said it would reiterate its request for the U.N. Security Council to meet on Monday over what Moscow called the "criminal provocations by Ukrainian soldiers and radicals" in the town of Bucha near Kyiv.
Britain's mission to the United Nations, which holds the presidency of the 15-member council for April, had said the Council would hold a scheduled discussion on Ukraine on Tuesday, and not meet on Monday as requested by Russia.
"Today Russia will again demand that the U.N. Security Council convene in connection with the criminal provocations of Ukrainian servicemen and radicals in this city," Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova wrote on her Telegram channel.
Ukrainian authorities said on Sunday they were investigating possible war crimes by Russia after finding hundreds of bodies strewn around towns outside the capital Kyiv following Russian troops' withdrawal from the area. read more
The Russian defence ministry said the images distributed by Ukraine were "another staged performance by the Kyiv regime", and Russia's chief investigator on Monday ordered a probe on the basis that Ukraine had spread "deliberately false information" about Russian armed forces in Bucha. read more
Russia sent tens of thousands of troops into Ukraine on Feb. 24 in what it called a special operation to degrade its southern neighbour's military capabilities and root out people it called dangerous nationalists.
Ukrainian forces have mounted stiff resistance and the West has imposed sweeping sanctions on Russia in an effort to force it to withdraw its forces.
The UN Security Council will hold a discussion on the subject today. According to reuters.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/
(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/)
Earlier it was reported that Russia had tried to convene the Security Council a day earlier, on Monday, to spread lies about alleged provocations by Ukrainian radicals about Russias atrocities in Bucha. However, it was decided that Russia will have the opportunity to voice its narratives at Tuesdays meeting.
https://hindustannewshub.com/russia-ukraine-news/the-united-kingdom-is-convening-a-un-security-council-to-discuss-the-atrocities-of-the-russian-military-in-bucha/
The UN Security Council will hold a discussion on the subject today. According to reuters.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/
(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/)
You're right, Termie! I thought at first you're referring to old news from yesterday but I've checked.
(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/)QuoteEarlier it was reported that Russia had tried to convene the Security Council a day earlier, on Monday, to spread lies about alleged provocations by Ukrainian radicals about Russias atrocities in Bucha. However, it was decided that Russia will have the opportunity to voice its narratives at Tuesdays meeting.
https://hindustannewshub.com/russia-ukraine-news/the-united-kingdom-is-convening-a-un-security-council-to-discuss-the-atrocities-of-the-russian-military-in-bucha/
(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/)
Russians complained yesterday that the UK breached UNSC procedure to deny them a meeting and continued to push for one.
I'm back to 50:50, 'wait and see' until an independent investigations team reports to the Council on Buccha. :)
(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ask-un-security-council-again-discuss-bucha-provocations-2022-04-04/)
This has become an academic lecture by kadame about whataboutism
Invalid Tweet ID?s=20&t=68geRyzb3a_Tt8FYAQU3FA
I believe the Ukraine story in general. Nobody is a saint. But Zelensky pulling our leg by slaughtering civilians in the Kyiv suburbs is too academic to be given any serious consideration IMO. I would have had some doubts if this were in the East Azov controlled territory.
I believe the Ukraine story in general. Nobody is a saint. But Zelensky pulling our leg by slaughtering civilians in the Kyiv suburbs is too academic to be given any serious consideration IMO. I would have had some doubts if this were in the East Azov controlled territory.
I am maintaining all my doubts until investigations. If Obama could lie, I have no reason to think Zelensky wouldn't. It could very well be the Russian unit here went nuts and their govt is trying to save face. Or that the Ukrainian unit that took over went nuts and Zelensky is just going with it to suit his cause. Until investigations are done I am not simply assuming Putin is a thug and Zelensky not. After all, it was Zelensky that didn't seem to mind the Azov shenanigans in the East. If the investigators say it's the Russians, I'll go with it. But I have no reason to assume it can't be the Ukrainians.
I have seen evidence that supports the Ukrainian version in NYT and other sources that I feel likely wont move the needle on the pro-Russia side. So my dismissal is more than purely on what I perceive about Putin or Zelensky. I have not seen anything nearly as credible about Ukrainians killing civilians in Bucha. Its in those circumstances, that I see harboring doubts as an academic exercise bordering on quibbles.
I have seen evidence that supports the Ukrainian version in NYT and other sources that I feel likely wont move the needle on the pro-Russia side. So my dismissal is more than purely on what I perceive about Putin or Zelensky. I have not seen anything nearly as credible about Ukrainians killing civilians in Bucha. Its in those circumstances, that I see harboring doubts as an academic exercise bordering on quibbles.
Which NYT article are you referring to, Termie? The one I saw had a clear disclaimer that the paper had not been able to independent verify those claims. Or do you mean the ones about other incidents outside Buccha? Moreover, NYT has not carried out forensics. Just reported on the same flood of videos. And the Western media has been basically forwarding Ukrainian claims and totally clamping down on Russian.
Bear in mind social media has basically blocked alk Russian sources or pro-Russian sources and that you're relying fully on a std Western paper. Secondly, BOTH Russia and Ukraine are currently controlling media in their controlled territories to extents considered draconian.
Feel free to believe this, I'm still waiting on actual investigations and I don't even need to call your views 'quibbles' or some similar descriptor while differing with you STRONGLY on this based on previous precedent. After all, my position is to go with investigations and not reports from a world away.
I believe the Ukraine story in general. Nobody is a saint. But Zelensky pulling our leg by slaughtering civilians in the Kyiv suburbs is too academic to be given any serious consideration IMO. I would have had some doubts if this were in the East Azov controlled territory.
I am maintaining all my doubts until investigations. If Obama could lie, I have no reason to think Zelensky wouldn't. It could very well be the Russian unit here went nuts and their govt is trying to save face. Or that the Ukrainian unit that took over went nuts and Zelensky is just going with it to suit his cause. Until investigations are done I am not simply assuming Putin is a thug and Zelensky not. After all, it was Zelensky that didn't seem to mind the Azov shenanigans in the East. If the investigators say it's the Russians, I'll go with it. But I have no reason to assume it can't be the Ukrainians.
I have seen evidence that supports the Ukrainian version in NYT and other sources that I feel likely wont move the needle on the pro-Russia side. So my dismissal is more than purely on what I perceive about Putin or Zelensky. I have not seen anything nearly as credible about Ukrainians killing civilians in Bucha. Its in those circumstances, that I see harboring doubts as an academic exercise bordering on quibbles.
I'm not qualified enough to evaluate this analysis but this is what Russian OSINT Telegram channel "Rybar" claims. Feel free to comment pic.twitter.com/HtYsbydg4r
— Russians With Attitude (@RWApodcast) April 5, 2022
oh they actually did like seven posts with various sperging about the maxar pictures, would take some time & more knowledge of geolocation than I have to look/understand at all of it, check out https://t.co/Lhue4fk9GV & use DeepL translator if you're interested
— Russians With Attitude (@RWApodcast) April 5, 2022
A thread on Bucha incident.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Particularly events on Yablunska Street presented by Ukrainian as a deliberate massacre of civilians.
Please 🔁RETWEET. pic.twitter.com/s7vzRv9oCO
Article has appeared in NYT.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Using Maxar satellite images the precise date on which killing took place were found.
March 11 for the incident with highest number of victims and March 20 for the second incident on the same street. pic.twitter.com/5vWjgsgkgm
Here are satellite images from Maxar, showing that mortar impacts and other damage from shelling came at the same time. pic.twitter.com/UTVwE3VAgy
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Burned minivan, tree knocked of by explosion. pic.twitter.com/rKvRq7INtK
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
[/size]Mortar impact, not visible on a previous day. pic.twitter.com/M8mjQeZVfG
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Mortar impact, not visible on a previous day. pic.twitter.com/M8mjQeZVfG
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Many ask why was not it reported before.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
This Ukrainian blogger mentions that there were no internet or mobile connections when he stayed in Bucha. And he had to get news about the situation from Russians. https://t.co/LvwKPO5rHz
The NYT article itself avoids the hard topic of absence of visible gunfire wounds preferring to state that causes of death are unknown, but vaguely admits the possibility of them being killed by shelling.https://t.co/utb0ePmgWH pic.twitter.com/ZGDxXiePVL
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Here is the Geo-location.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
Orange square is where the described incident took place. (Yablunska Street)
It is is very close to Irpin and few kilometers away from Kiev itself.
Purple line is approximative front line around this time (send me a better control map on 11.03.22) pic.twitter.com/WVu6jgNaPu
Remember how on 22 of March Russian missile destroyed Retroville commercial center from which Ukraine was firing MRLS?
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
This was just one of many Ukrainian firing positions on Western Kiev front. From which Ukraine was shelling territories under Russian control. pic.twitter.com/wUHDCXDgSV
Correction the Retroville was hit on 21 of March.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
(I am not claiming that this particular location was shelled from Retroville, it is just a well publicized MRLS position in Western Kiev)
See geo-location image and Image of MRLS launchers stationed. https://t.co/AuGAdDdybF pic.twitter.com/xJnlYXbbqW
I want to use this opportunity to expose a famous @bellingcat "expert" @EliotHiggins who recently claimed that there is nothing to investigate about Bucha implying proven Russian fault. This shows his level of competency & impartiality.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 4, 2022
He is a tool. https://t.co/ypwAeduHDW pic.twitter.com/IKC7V7DWyS
On 4th of April one of the Kiev Oblast pro-Ukrainian telegram channels have proudly posted a video claimed to be showing Ukrainian artillery attacks on Russian forces in Bucha.https://t.co/AHoMszlLKh pic.twitter.com/pWS4PhqKzZ
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
Now on people with tied hands.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
1. Several videos of prisoner executions and tortures by Ukrainian forces exist. So far none by Russian forces. This does not acquit Russian forces, but weakens the argument against them.
2. "cui bono" (who benefits) pic.twitter.com/J5Wv85EL0E
Now on people with tied hands.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
1. Several videos of prisoner executions and tortures by Ukrainian forces exist. So far none by Russian forces. This does not acquit Russian forces, but weakens the argument against them.
2. "cui bono" (who benefits) pic.twitter.com/J5Wv85EL0E
One of the Ukrainian fighters "Botsman" (Sergey Korotkih) posted this video from Bucha.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
The discussion in background:
- There are guys without blue ribbons (ukrainian marking) can I shoot them?
- #### (inaudible either "sure yeah" or "try") pic.twitter.com/J5qVI1BgtV
And here is the possible answer on "cui bono" (who benefits) question. pic.twitter.com/zs3UBLlu7p
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
New video from @bellingcat
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
Explaining the body next to a broken lamppost.
1:28 first shots fired (smoke seen) , the man stops, than continues walking
1:32 more fire, no explosion is seen
The complete column on vokzalnaya street was later destroyedhttps://t.co/fRbAZkSxje pic.twitter.com/UG05D4QSWz
NASA fire monitoring show that Yablunska Street was one of the places with most fires in Bucha. Supporting the shelling version.
— Ո̾❍_❍Ո̾Ξ (@antiwar_soldier) April 5, 2022
Fires correspond well to NYT dates.
10.03 & 21.03.
Also fire rec. on 27.02 when a Russian column was destroyed on adjacent Vokzalnaya street. pic.twitter.com/S5ncrh1INi
Noway, this is why I'm on the fence till investigations. Videos and 'evidence' vs Counter videos and 'evidence.' Let people with requisite qualifications and office, people who KNOW how to sort these things (forensics experts, people who would analyze these videos for authenticity and details, etc), tell us which is which, after adequate opportunity to examine the scene, bodies, witnesses, etc, for themselves. Not, as I'm reading, a team of prosecutors from Ukraine and other countries already hostile to Russia. A UN team will eventually have hearings to collect information from all these Western-side investigators, alongside whatever Russian experts are coming from the opposite end, in addition to their own independent studies. Results may not be perfect but I'm inclined to go with them over what the West says while acting all by their lonesome. Maybe this team can consist of people from Scandinavia, China, India, and Turkey, plus Ukrainian/Russian people, to avoid accusations of bias, etc.
(Btw, that video of Ukrainian officers asking and apparently getting permission to shoot civilians for not wearing the Blue insgnia, is what I was referring to yesterday when I said it's just as possible some of these bodies may be victims of execution for perceived treason by Ukrainian officers as they may be victims of Russian officers: In wartime, horrors happen, and this is likely for both camps. So let the investigations happen.)
Termie, as a matter of fact, ONLY the Ukrainians have anything to gain from a scene of deliberately massacred civilians in an area the Russians have just left. Tell me what the Russians have to gain from leaving civilians they had targeted for the world to see. That's exactly my number one reason for doubting this till investigations: smells too much like Syria.IMO the Russians could have been dishing out collective punishment for the troubles the Ukrainian military has put them through. But youd have to be open to the idea that they have struggled, which I feel is a whole other universe from your posts.
I don't look at ANY of these videos for the same reason I haven't seen a horror flick in like 15 years. But what I've read from third parties is opposite of what you're saying. It's Ukrainians, not Russians who've been caught on video deliberately shooting at/targetting civilians as opposed to hitting them as casualties of war between the two militaries. Civilian areas (like the apartment building) hit by Russians haven't been denied but are subject of counter-accusations btw the two sides as the Russians claim they've been militarized (used as human shields). But even those ones, I haven't seen as I never click play. I only point it out because your post indicates you're only aware of one side of these visual media coming out of that place. Understandable, given the tech giants are unabashedly going after pro-Russian posting. For me, I treat them all like wartime propaganda, which is why Ive never bothered to post or retweet a single one here or anywhere.I think you should look at them. Dont look away. There are videos of Ukrainians kneecapping captured Russians. There are videos of Russian APCs opening fire on random motorists. There is even drone video of a cyclist being shot by Russians in Bucha. I think watching them might give you a better idea of the disruption to Ukrainian life and well-being that this invasion has caused. A visceral reason why Russia needs to stop attacking that country.
And unlike you, I am not going to elevate NYT and the other papers. Why should I do that? As if I didn't know they are JUST as biased even within their own internal politics as many other papers? They have been forwarding Ukrainian versions and shutting down Russian just like everyone else. Even when they report on the other side, they make sure to downplay anything that bluntly counters the prevailing narrative. They are pushing the current establishment story like the entire Western media. They are NOT impartial. Besides, these satellite pics Noway is referring to have also been reported by NYT and more importantly, NYT haven't been on the ground. What you keep missing here is the lack of independent reporting from Ukraine and the draconian controls both countries have been practicing throughout March in terms of media.The only reason I elevated NYT(and the usual suspects Reuters, AP etc) is because- absent bad faith - they are in a better position to get to the bottom of a story, because they are well resourced. Generally I dont ascribe blanket bad faith(some bias? possible) on what they are reporting. They arent perfect, but they have earned their reputation.
In fact, the only on-the-ground reporting I've seen, from Maripol, is this American named something like Patrick Lancaster (I could be getting his second name wrong) and he has shown nothing like widespread civilian resistance to Russia in his area. Most civilians just seem to keep out of trouble from his reports, and many of the ones he has interviewed in Maripol have good things to say about the Russians. That they left them alone and even traded with them for food. Even in his case, given the lack of freedom of the press currently, who knows what his arrangement is over there? If he's truly independent? No one. There's another Ukrainian from Bucha saying the same there about the Russian 4 week occupation. For the most part no one outside knows anything but what each of these sides would like to share.
I understand back in the day they used to have a designated 'truth-teller' mostly Finland; who would go into the war zone and report on what was happening from an independent perspective. No one is doing that there anymore. If the UN sets up a team, it'll be the first one to do that so far, because if their access is hindered like the others are (where they can only access pre-selected places etc etc) they'll also report on said hinderance.The more the merrier. IMO you are never going to have an independent perspective, especially on war. Merely reporting that this war is a Russian invasion which has been condemned at the UN and continues to be waged in defiance of the UN international court immediately casts you in the anti-Russian camp.
I came back to delete this last post of mine^^^ and replace it with what I'm now posting here, but alas! The time has run out even for modification. If a mod can do it for me, I'd be grateful. :D I'm not participating in this topic anymore till the investigation is underway. There's just no point. :)
Merely reporting that this war is a Russian invasion which has been condemned at the UN and continues to be waged in defiance of the UN international court immediately casts you in the anti-Russian camp.
See, Termie: even the Pentagon is taking a similarly careful approach to Bucha, as I am. Here, they are refusing to confirm the claims or refute them, unlike papers like the NYT. https://www.reuters.com/world/pentagon-cant-independently-confirm-atrocities-ukraines-bucha-official-says-2022-04-04/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/pentagon-cant-independently-confirm-atrocities-ukraines-bucha-official-says-2022-04-04/)
See, I'm not being crazy here, :D These things are complex. Remember, the Pentagon is far more an expert on IHL than NYT since the military has to apply these rules in real life in America's many wars. They insist in that article that they have the same images everyone else has and no more and so refuse to confirm or refute, though they state it in a manner sensitive to Ukraine. I bet they, too, are waiting for an independent team of experts to take over the scene and issue reports before they commit to anything stronger regarding Bucha? My sense.
No problem. Just to clarify my own position, after reading this,QuoteMerely reporting that this war is a Russian invasion which has been condemned at the UN and continues to be waged in defiance of the UN international court immediately casts you in the anti-Russian camp.
I'll just say, for me, there's no question Russia's war is illegal as far as a breach of the Law of War (Use of Force). My criticism/attitude toward the West isn't based on my thinking that that's in question, but rather on realpolitik or International Relations (not Law).
Use of Force and International Humanitarian Law are two separate systems of Law. One prescribes when it's lawful/unlawful for a state to launch war, defend itself with war, etc. To me, there's no question Russia is guilty as far as this law is concerned for the simple reason it wasn't attacked first, nor threatened with an imminent attack so that it could've legitimately launched the war first to defend itself.
The other Law is about the conduct of the war itself, once launched (IHL) and its aim is mainly to shield civilian targets (people/places, including those there to help or report) from war and POWs from inhumane treatment. It's in this second Law that for me there remain questions to be answered with further info, not the first. As far as I understand Russia is in breach of the Rule prohibiting launching war against another country.
Now, about the videos, I can't :) Those images don't leave my head for a while, once I've seen them, and yet there's no positive contribution I could make to those experiencing whatever I've seen. I'd just be tormented, and that's it.
I'll now hopefully avoid responding until at least the UN comes up with a report. As I said before, I'm all for the ICC and similar bringing to book these individuals and Russia being sued at the ICJ for them, if they happened. They will obviously be sued for launching the war itself, in any case. Let's hope they actually obey the court once it has determined their responsibility like European states tend to do, and not be rebellious like the US, China, and even our own .ke (recently) have been.
If thats the logic you want to apply, President Biden has called Putin a war criminal over Bucha.. Biden has access to more information than the Pentagon.
I dont know what the Pentagon or Biden knows, but I know their business model is not as dependent on reputation as the NYT. They can hem and haw, or scream from the rooftops. But they are not in the business of reporting.
Dear Mami good point you are bringing.The United nations was a noble idea which could have been used to maintain peace and settle disputes . However as we have experienced it has been used by U.S. to settle political scores by passed by U.S. on several decisions to go to war. I believe Russia would not have by passed U.N.S.C . on the operation in Ukraine if U.S. didnt by pass on the Iraq afghanistan war .
U.N. is now on its deathbed just waiting for another World War to become obsolute like League of Nations.
If thats the logic you want to apply, President Biden has called Putin a war criminal over Bucha.. Biden has access to more information than the Pentagon.
I dont know what the Pentagon or Biden knows, but I know their business model is not as dependent on reputation as the NYT. They can hem and haw, or scream from the rooftops. But they are not in the business of reporting.
Oh, Termie, but Biden is a politician. Particularly the one most interested in destroying Russia: A sitting American president. There's no way I'd trust what he says without proof in a war like this where his country is engaged in a proxy war with the 'accused' country.
I mentioned the Pentagon because the Law concerned here is 'theirs' to put it crudely: Professional militaries, especially with extensive experience in applying this law in their law formulations, combat, and trials. Their reluctance signals to me an entity that actually knows what it takes to successfully investigate, prosecute, and prove war crimes. When they say they are looking at the same images everyone is, they're saying flatly what the media never says but should start with: they, too, have no better info. That's my only point.
Now this business of watching real life people being tortured or blown to bits . . . I really, really will struggle to do. I can't even watch horror flicks, knowing it's fiction. Now seeing horrific scenese while fully aware they are NOT fiction . . . That's a very tough pill. :D
If thats the logic you want to apply, President Biden has called Putin a war criminal over Bucha.. Biden has access to more information than the Pentagon.
I dont know what the Pentagon or Biden knows, but I know their business model is not as dependent on reputation as the NYT. They can hem and haw, or scream from the rooftops. But they are not in the business of reporting.
Oh, Termie, but Biden is a politician. Particularly the one most interested in destroying Russia: A sitting American president. There's no way I'd trust what he says without proof in a war like this where his country is engaged in a proxy war with the 'accused' country.
I mentioned the Pentagon because the Law concerned here is 'theirs' to put it crudely: Professional militaries, especially with extensive experience in applying this law in their law formulations, combat, and trials. Their reluctance signals to me an entity that actually knows what it takes to successfully investigate, prosecute, and prove war crimes. When they say they are looking at the same images everyone is, they're saying flatly what the media never says but should start with: they, too, have no better info. That's my only point.
Now this business of watching real life people being tortured or blown to bits . . . I really, really will struggle to do. I can't even watch horror flicks, knowing it's fiction. Now seeing horrific scenese while fully aware they are NOT fiction . . . That's a very tough pill. :D
I really don't know who to believe between the Pentagon and Biden(and the White House (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2022/04/04/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-jen-psaki-and-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan/)). The White House harbors no doubts, the Pentagon is more cautious. Either way, they are both partisans on this matter so I don't put any more stock in what the White House or the Pentagon says than the Kremlin for that reason. They have great resources and reach, but they are also partisan.
Pentagon is more proffesional and seems to use data and facts to come into conclusions. When Biden and Blinken (Bidens policy maker) were all up threatening that NATO could go to war with Russia at the begining. It was Pentagon who came out clearly and ponted out NATO was not prepared and any war with Russia would become world war 3 and Nuclear would wipe out the whole world.
When Blinken went to the media and said NATO would give Ukraine Fighter Jets, It Pentagon who came out clearly again and said that was a bad idea and a single mistake could lead to a World War 3.
Now you can see their reaction on Bucha.
This all goes down to one fact . State Department operators are either young or want a drastic circumstance or make policys to reflect the people high up in the office. Pentagon has career Military officers , There is continuity and their policy is devoid of adventrusim.
I take Lloyd Austin more seriously than Blinken.
If thats the logic you want to apply, President Biden has called Putin a war criminal over Bucha.. Biden has access to more information than the Pentagon.
I dont know what the Pentagon or Biden knows, but I know their business model is not as dependent on reputation as the NYT. They can hem and haw, or scream from the rooftops. But they are not in the business of reporting.
Oh, Termie, but Biden is a politician. Particularly the one most interested in destroying Russia: A sitting American president. There's no way I'd trust what he says without proof in a war like this where his country is engaged in a proxy war with the 'accused' country.
I mentioned the Pentagon because the Law concerned here is 'theirs' to put it crudely: Professional militaries, especially with extensive experience in applying this law in their law formulations, combat, and trials. Their reluctance signals to me an entity that actually knows what it takes to successfully investigate, prosecute, and prove war crimes. When they say they are looking at the same images everyone is, they're saying flatly what the media never says but should start with: they, too, have no better info. That's my only point.
Now this business of watching real life people being tortured or blown to bits . . . I really, really will struggle to do. I can't even watch horror flicks, knowing it's fiction. Now seeing horrific scenese while fully aware they are NOT fiction . . . That's a very tough pill. :D
I really don't know who to believe between the Pentagon and Biden(and the White House (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2022/04/04/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-jen-psaki-and-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan/)). The White House harbors no doubts, the Pentagon is more cautious. Either way, they are both partisans on this matter so I don't put any more stock in what the White House or the Pentagon says than the Kremlin for that reason. They have great resources and reach, but they are also partisan.