Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RV Pundit on October 27, 2014, 08:22:39 AM
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Gov should exit mature industries and support infact industries like this car manufacturing....there is a lot of idle capacity in NMC which was suppose to manufacture cars...and now that private investors are doing so...gov can easily buy huge part of the shareholding...and support this industry.
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Kenya-made-car-goes-on-sale-at-Sh950-000/-/539550/2497400/-/glyasbz/-/index.html
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Michael Joseph joins it
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Michael-Joseph-joins-Kenya-made-low-cost-vehicle-firm/-/539550/2500306/-/9hpsd4z/-/index.html
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gov should keep off just offer assistance where needed...we have capital markets (which you as an idiot has not understood) where mobius can list and attract growth capital to expand production,Mobius just needs to work on design and their model can quick sell which means,they need to mix equity and debt to invest in plant and repay in a 20year plan,
Without Prejudice.
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First grow up and go slow on abuses..i can assure you it will get your banned here eventually. You've got Nipate.com to muddle yourself in mud.
And yes which capital market will allow Mobius to enlist? Look like you are not even aware that CMA regulation would require a company to have been profitable for 5yrs plus so many other rules...at least in the main market.
Mobius now can only get money from venture capitalist like the American billionaire...it can also get a lot of support from gov ministry of industralisation and treasury through equity, tax incentives and other bla de bla.
gov should keep off just offer assistance where needed...we have capital markets (which you as an idiot has not understood) where mobius can list and attract growth capital to expand production,Mobius just needs to work on design and their model can quick sell which means,they need to mix equity and debt to invest in plant and repay in a 20year plan,
Without Prejudice.
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Those mzungu billionaire are offering it equity (convertible debt) and roping in professionals because the moment its listed whether in NYSE or Nairobi it will generate wealth...gov needs to level playing field for all investors by streamlining the infrastructure for all....go ahead and ban me while you hunt for land in ukambani instead of doing sensible stuff,pepo punda wewe,
Without Prejudice.
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You're desperate for attention. I will punish you by ignoring your dimwitted posts.
Those mzungu billionaire are offering it equity (convertible debt) and roping in professionals because the moment its listed whether in NYSE or Nairobi it will generate wealth...gov needs to level playing field for all investors by streamlining the infrastructure for all....go ahead and ban me while you hunt for land in ukambani instead of doing sensible stuff,pepo punda wewe,
Without Prejudice.
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Attention for what?Any place,Any time,I can't put up with nonsense,
Without Prejudice.
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I agree with Pundit on this. I am for very limited government. I think government is over-stretched. However in this case GoK holds the keys to the growth of the new car Kenyan made car. GOK can help a lot! Not just with taxes etc but marketing!
It is GoK that can buy most of those cars. It is GoK that can arm twist Sudan (North and South), Ethiopia, Somalia and so on to buy a few of these vehicles to support 'local made'. People like Museveni and Kagame would not need top be asked twice. This is how Spain got herself a car industry.
GoK is in Safaricom and has seen its investment pay off. GoK set up KenGen and got out in time as it did many others. In this case Pundit is suggesting they be offered a resource that is already there and which will help the company grow. It is a good proposal. Much better than throwing it to hyenas to fight over, like they are doing in Karen
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It is what every functioning gov has done. Nurture infant industries and exit when they are mature. This is what US did to spur their industrialization against developed Europe....and US started turning from farmland into industrial engine in late 19th century till 1920s..Japan did the same in 1950s all through 1970s...Korea did the same...China is doing that. That is genesis of state owned enterprises.
Once an industry has matured..the gov exist...at a profit. Safaricom is one example. New KCC and Uchumi, KWAL,Hilton, Intercon,Kengen,Mumias,KTDA, Mumias and several other formerly gov owned industries....were a result of such policies.
There are very people willing to risk money on a start up like Mobius...and yet we know the critical multiplier role a car manufacturing industry would create..which is why we had Nyayo car project in the first place..
The little kid suffers from little knowledge... What hell would gov be leveling the ground when there is zero car manufacturers in kenya?. Who is willing to take such a big risk to sink money into Mobius R&D that could take yrs?
The role of gov is to develop new industries...nurture them[using money,legislation,taxation,free land,sweetheart procurement etc]..and exit when they are mature....and leave private competition.
Gov should invest in Mobius..it also should say invest in cultivating Cocoa planting in kenya...once an industry is self-sustaining..gov exit and then private competition kicks in.
I agree with Pundit on this. I am for very limited government. I think government is over-stretched. However in this case GoK holds the keys to the growth of the new car Kenyan made car. GOK can help a lot! Not just with taxes etc but marketing!
It is GoK that can buy most of those cars. It is GoK that can arm twist Sudan (North and South), Ethiopia, Somalia and so on to buy a few of these vehicles to support 'local made'. People like Museveni and Kagame would not need top be asked twice. This is how Spain got herself a car industry.
GoK is in Safaricom and has seen its investment pay off. GoK set up KenGen and got out in time as it did many others. In this case Pundit is suggesting they be offered a resource that is already there and which will help the company grow. It is a good proposal. Much better than throwing it to hyenas to fight over, like they are doing in Karen
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I hope they are not wasting time trying to manufacture many of the parts locally. They can outsource many of the parts while they develop their own local capacity to manufacture them. Some of the counties could also benefit by partnering to have the company locate the manufacture of one or two parts in the county. It does not have to be something big to start with. Perhaps mud guard, or bumper. They can later expand to bigger and more complicated parts. That would also form the basis for the counties expanding in to car manufacturing. China started off making parts for Japanese car industry.
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There are so many corporations not just in Kenya but the world that have taken off without government shareholding,stop diverting from your earlier position,what drives a corporation is DEMAND DEMAND DEMAND not gov shareholding,That's what has led to success of safaricom,KWL,Uchumi,Kengen,KPLC etc etc Mobius will not be the only car manufacturer in the Kenya,there will be so many others and the best the gov can do is to offer a level playing field,we have i think 60,000 cars or so being imported annually vs gov leasing just 1200,if Mobius designs a sexy middle class car,it will sell,government should NOT BE A SHAREHOLDER in this Mobius corp it should keep off,if its any assistance yes but bringing in ethnic idiots in a promising corp is a No,
Lastly,you cannot compare venture capital with the return on equity in the long term,what that American billionaire has invested in mobius is very little compare to what he will earn in equity over long term,
Without Prejudice.
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There is a lot of car "manufacturing" going on with car assemblers...those that assembler buses,matatus and the work...and that is what Mobius are trying to take advantage of. They are based in Thika assembler..that basically take the chasis of the car..and convert them into lorries and buses...so already there is capacity for welding, fittings,upholstery, basic wiring,windows. They are folks who produce shocks for kenya road..like Robs etc.All Mobius need is an engine and transmission.....
I think they are on the right track...and what they need is gov support...to ramp up capacity from 15 cars to 1,000 cars....and slowly into a million of cars. Gov can try to offer incentives...or even buy into it.
Forward looking county like Machakos can step in...and offer Mobius free land.
A car industry can spun many other industries....so this Mobius guys need support.
I hope they are not wasting time trying to manufacture many of the parts locally. They can outsource many of the parts while they develop their own local capacity to manufacture them. Some of the counties could also benefit by partnering to have the company locate the manufacture of one or two parts in the county. It does not have to be something big to start with. Perhaps mud guard, or bumper. They can later expand to bigger and more complicated parts. That would also form the basis for the counties expanding in to car manufacturing. China started off making parts for Japanese car industry.
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Ignored. Sounds like bla bla de bla bla.
There are so many corporations not just in Kenya but the world that have taken off without government shareholding,stop diverting from your earlier position,what drives a corporation is DEMAND DEMAND DEMAND not gov shareholding,That's what has led to success of safaricom,KWL,Uchumi,Kengen,KPLC etc etc Mobius will not be the only car manufacturer in the Kenya,there will be so many others and the best the gov can do is to offer a level playing field,we have i think 60,000 cars or so being imported annually vs gov leasing just 1200,if Mobius designs a sexy middle class car,it will sell,government should NOT BE A SHAREHOLDER in this Mobius corp it should keep off,if its any assistance yes but bringing in ethnic idiots in a promising corp is a No,
Lastly,you cannot compare venture capital with the return on equity in the long term,what that American billionaire has invested in mobius is very little compare to what he will earn in equity over long term,
Without Prejudice.
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Indeed but how many of those have been in car manufacturing in the last 50 years? How many times did the British government rescue British Car makers before recently carrying up hands? How many times has the US government poured cash in detroit and turned some of it in to equity? The greatest salesman for the US car and AERO Business remains the US government. How many times did successive US presidents arm twist Japan and China to buy US cars? Boeing, Lockheed, Mcdonnell Douglas benefited from government intervention (and still do).
There cannot be enough demand for a newbie car locally manufactured. Just like GoK assisted Car assemblies based in Kenya by passing a policy giving them preference, so should it do in respect of Mobibus.
There are so many corporations not just in Kenya but the world that have taken off without government shareholding,stop diverting from your earlier position,what drives a corporation is DEMAND DEMAND DEMAND not gov shareholding,That's what has led to success of safaricom,KWL,Uchumi,Kengen,KPLC etc etc
Mobius will not be the only car manufacturer in the Kenya,there will be so many others and the best the gov can do is to offer a level playing field,we have i think 60,000 cars or so being imported annually vs gov leasing just 1200,if Mobius designs a sexy middle class car,it will sell,government should NOT BE A SHAREHOLDER in this Mobius corp it should keep off,if its any assistance yes but bringing in ethnic idiots in a promising corp is a No,
Lastly,you cannot compare venture capital with the return on equity in the long term,what that American billionaire has invested in mobius is very little compare to what he will earn in equity over long term,
Without Prejudice.
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Pundit,
Im with you in this, but govt should only give tax incentives for a given period. Nothing else.
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Tax incentive would be too little in such a capital intensive project. Beside gok will not be giving them anything for free...but for substantial share of equity...gov can give them 100 acres of land...and inject say 1b every yr.
Pundit,
Im with you in this, but govt should only give tax incentives for a given period. Nothing else.
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Most projects that govt invests in comes with political patronage, thats why am against govt. Giving land and tax incentives is OK. What I dislike is direct investment. Then corruption sets in and blah blah. We saw what happened to Nyayo car.
Tax incentive would be too little in such a capital intensive project. Beside gok will not be giving them anything for free...but for substantial share of equity...gov can give them 100 acres of land...and inject say 1b every yr.
Pundit,
Im with you in this, but govt should only give tax incentives for a given period. Nothing else.
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Indeed but how many of those have been in car manufacturing in the last 50 years? How many times did the British government rescue British Car makers before recently carrying up hands? How many times has the US government poured cash in detroit and turned some of it in to equity? The greatest salesman for the US car and AERO Business remains the US government. How many times did successive US presidents arm twist Japan and China to buy US cars? Boeing, Lockheed, Mcdonnell Douglas benefited from government intervention (and still do).
There cannot be enough demand for a newbie car locally manufactured. Just like GoK assisted Car assemblies based in Kenya by passing a policy giving them preference, so should it do in respect of Mobibus.
Omollo,If you look at the time the government bailed out deloitte,banks,automakers,insurance companies etc etc...its when the economy had collapsed and the gov was bringing it back to its feet,if you look at my first reply you will see i am against government shareholding not assistance at the time of need,some of those companies like Boeing you've mentioned are transnational interms of the shareholding,financing,supply chain and sales while Japan and USA had a tradewar on autos,
Lastly,You should distinguish between mobius and local car assemblies,in the case of mobius its a fairly priced car affordable by kenyan middle class,most of the 60,000 vehicle kenyans import cost an average of 1MN so if mobius improves on design,there is a huge market potential unlike those peugot,toyota and land rover being sold locally at prohibitive prices,we import mitumba Japanese cars because they are cheap to buy and maintain and well designed,if mobius works on that,it has great market potential,
Without Prejudice.
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This is different. This is more like vodafone-GOK. Gok will not be owning it fully but jointly with folks who understand something about car business[mobius]. This has worked before. Hilton,Continentental,KQ,Kwal, name it....gov has shares..but management is with wazungus. If this was Nyayo car parastal (fully owned) they would not have sold 15 cars already...but these guys have bootstrapped few resources and produces some cars...they need a boost..and nobody else can risk the money part treasury risking our collective money...
That is SOP for growing industries..from infancy to maturity.
Most projects that govt invests in comes with political patronage, thats why am against govt. Giving land and tax incentives is OK. What I dislike is direct investment. Then corruption sets in and blah blah. We saw what happened to Nyayo car.
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govt should only give tax incentives for a given period. Nothing else.
Right,Like it does to the EPZ on zero tax on raw materials,tax holiday and such things,and since there will be many car manufacturers with time,this incentive should be offered to all of them not just one....look at most state corporations,they are choked by corruption and most end up being privatised to realize their objectives,gov should keep off completely,
Without Prejudice.
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I see no basis to assume that there will be many car manufacturers in Kenya. Unless you have information I don't, yours is wishful thinking.
If GoK can help expand Mobibus and nudge and motivate them to locate some parts of their manufacturing in other parts of Kenya, the industry at best could remain in Nairobi.
govt should only give tax incentives for a given period. Nothing else.
Right,Like it does to the EPZ on zero tax on raw materials,tax holiday and such things,and since there will be many car manufacturers with time,this incentive should be offered to all of them not just one....look at most state corporations,they are choked by corruption and most end up being privatised to realize their objectives,gov should keep off completely,
Without Prejudice.
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I see no basis to assume that there will be many car manufacturers in Kenya.
We will have them with time just like we've had mobius which will start producing 500 vehicles from next year,There is low vehicle ownership in Africa,take a look at Kenya where ONLY 24 out of 1000 kenyans own vehicles VS an average of 800 in 1000 people in developed world,it means the region with the biggest market potential is Africa not USA,UK or Japan,we have cheap labor,the cost of energy is coming down which is one of the barriers,what the gov just needs to do is offer zero tax on raw materials,tax holiday and mobius needs to develop beautiful family vehicles and knock Japanese 60,000 annual car imports off the market slowly,gov should not be a share holder,Currently 35% cost of mobius vehicle cost is sourced domestically,incentive should be on 65% sourced outside,
Without Prejudice.
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As long as govt has no direct control, I will go for it. How about floating bonds? That will attract investment.
This is different. This is more like vodafone-GOK. Gok will not be owning it fully but jointly with folks who understand something about car business[mobius]. This has worked before. Hilton,Continentental,KQ,Kwal, name it....gov has shares..but management is with wazungus. If this was Nyayo car parastal (fully owned) they would not have sold 15 cars already...but these guys have bootstrapped few resources and produces some cars...they need a boost..and nobody else can risk the money part treasury risking our collective money...
That is SOP for growing industries..from infancy to maturity.
Most projects that govt invests in comes with political patronage, thats why am against govt. Giving land and tax incentives is OK. What I dislike is direct investment. Then corruption sets in and blah blah. We saw what happened to Nyayo car.
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Time... how many years?
We will have them with time just like we've had mobius which will start producing 500 vehicles from next year,There is low vehicle ownership in Africa,take a look at Kenya where ONLY 24 out of 1000 kenyans own vehicles VS an average of 800 in 1000 people in developed world,it means the region with the biggest market potential is Africa not USA,UK or Japan,we have cheap labor,the cost of energy is coming down which is one of the barriers,what the gov just needs to do is offer zero tax on raw materials,tax holiday and mobius needs to develop beautiful family vehicles and knock Japanese 60,000 annual car imports off the market slowly,gov should not be a share holder,Currently 35% cost of mobius vehicle cost is sourced domestically,incentive should be on 65% sourced outside,
Without Prejudice.
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the way I see govt supporting Mobius would be buying the cars and giving them to say chiefs in Eastern and NEP or ordering customised ones for anti stock theft units in pokot/turkana ..... county govts can also snap up this steel thing which requires little or no mainetenance...... 100 cars for a start would see Mobius break even, over 500 hundred direct jobs, tax, building kenyans technical capacity ..... that is just 100 million which is being used for one trip by kanjoras or keitany to bribe linturi and you got 50k change/kickback on each car
but you expect Mobius Jackson to be listed as a 'foreign agent' given we are being led by Moses Kuria mentality
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Gov should exit mature industries and support infact industries like this car manufacturing....there is a lot of idle capacity in NMC which was suppose to manufacture cars...and now that private investors are doing so...gov can easily buy huge part of the shareholding...and support this industry.
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Kenya-made-car-goes-on-sale-at-Sh950-000/-/539550/2497400/-/glyasbz/-/index.html
Indeed, they can easily supply the police with all the vehicles they need in short order.
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Gov should exit mature industries and support infact industries like this car manufacturing....there is a lot of idle capacity in NMC which was suppose to manufacture cars...and now that private investors are doing so...gov can easily buy huge part of the shareholding...and support this industry.
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Kenya-made-car-goes-on-sale-at-Sh950-000/-/539550/2497400/-/glyasbz/-/index.html
Indeed, they can easily supply the police with all the vehicles they need in short order.
The police will require custom made models that can speed at at least 250 kph to chase thugs and culprits. This model maxes at a mere 160 kph. Every thug escapes pursuit.
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Indeed. Those are great ideas.
the way I see govt supporting Mobius would be buying the cars and giving them to say chiefs in Eastern and NEP or ordering customised ones for anti stock theft units in pokot/turkana ..... county govts can also snap up this steel thing which requires little or no mainetenance...... 100 cars for a start would see Mobius break even, over 500 hundred direct jobs, tax, building kenyans technical capacity ..... that is just 100 million which is being used for one trip by kanjoras or keitany to bribe linturi and you got 50k change/kickback on each car
but you expect Mobius Jackson to be listed as a 'foreign agent' given we are being led by Moses Kuria mentality
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Really? How about we get them choppers. 90% of our kenya roads make it impossible to go past 30kms per hour. I am talking 90% of road network which are murram/dirty tracks with potholes and graters that only the NASA rover can go through. And this is the market that Mobius seem to be targeting...people in rural kenya just need a tough car with tough suspensions, tough body, possibly 4WD and less drama; no need for radio or AC or power windows or power steering.
The police will require custom made models that can speed at at least 250 kph to chase thugs and culprits. This model maxes at a mere 160 kph. Every thug escapes pursuit.
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people need to get off the highways to understand the state of road network in Kenya.....to get a picture of road network in Kenya .. I would put 60% of the feeder roads joining the famed thika road between githurai -thika as rough roads - murram or just dusty paths
that we still have handcarts even in Nairobi CBD just shows 1000 reasons why mobius needs all the support it can get from govt...
it would make more sense if karangi can even make it a KDF project stead of forcing uhuru to run around in fatigues ..we have so much idle capacity given what barefoot NYS kids are doing in kibera with nearly zero shillings..
this country needs thousands of these experiments and only govt has the resources to support them; vulture capitalists can't do much given the disadvantages mobius is starting - with govt support the car can retail at even 300k ...
that it can carry 8 that would be great even for the public transport instead of people being stacked up in proboxes in most remote areas
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Precisely.
people need to get off the highways to understand the state of road network in Kenya.....to get a picture of road network in Kenya .. I would put 60% of the feeder roads joining the famed thika road between githurai -thika as rough roads - murram or just dusty paths
that we still have handcarts even in Nairobi CBD just shows 1000 reasons why mobius needs all the support it can get from govt...
it would make more sense if karangi can even make it a KDF project stead of forcing uhuru to run around in fatigues ..we have so much idle capacity given what barefoot NYS kids are doing in kibera with nearly zero shillings..
this country needs thousands of these experiments and only govt has the resources to support them; vulture capitalists can't do much given the disadvantages mobius is starting - with govt support the car can retail at even 300k ...
that it can carry 8 that would be great even for the public transport instead of people being stacked up in proboxes in most remote areas
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Some of customer stories...
http://www.mobiusmotors.com/stories/juhudi.html
(http://www.mobiusmotors.com/stories/images/banner_juhudi.jpg)
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I can bet in a few years we will see this car edging out Proboxes and Dx especially in rural Kenya both as a matatu and utility vehicle. Once it catches up with Kenyans I can bet some guys will have to wait up to two years for delivery of their car
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If GoK can arrange so that the price is like 300K per unit. The manufacturer can also help himself by launching a "luxury"! version which could then subsidize the cheaper version.
I can bet in a few years we will see this car edging out Proboxes and Dx especially in rural Kenya both as a matatu and utility vehicle. Once it catches up with Kenyans I can bet some guys will have to wait up to two years for delivery of their car
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Some of customer stories...
http://www.mobiusmotors.com/stories/juhudi.html
(http://www.mobiusmotors.com/stories/images/banner_juhudi.jpg)
A tough looking lady with ample proportions. All counties should be buying this thing for police cars, ambulances etc.
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I will comment after I see the safety ratings. How well does that heavy metal steer and break along treacherous Mau escarpent with an overspending lorry coming in the opposite direction? lol. I'm assuming it's also supercheap because just by visual inspection fuel efficiency it's not its forte.
In good news this is how wakina Henry Ford invented the wheel over 100 years ago when American roads still looked like Mutuas Appian way. We are on the right track.
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You can't blame the manufacturer. GoK safety standards are not worth mentioning. They could come up with something which would require crashing of samples etc but that would put many mhindis out of business. They manufacture the buses you see on the road and manyangas that kill people all over the country. Those contraptions whether buses, mini buses or manyanga are as unsafe as it can get. The upper part is connect to the chassis by two of four thin bolts. The seats are linked to the already detached body by two thin bolts. Most passengers in crashes involving buses die from being squeezed between seats that get detached and push to the front.
One can import safe buses but the lack of standards means they seats are removed and local seats installed. The motive is to create more sitting capacity to make more money. Of course that compromises safety and comfort. I stopped using public transport eons ago because with my height it was just torture to seat in one of these. I was on several times asked to bend my knee. I had no idea how that is physiologically possible!
I guess I am saying Mobibus cannot fail a test that does not exist!
I will comment after I see the safety ratings. How well does that heavy metal steer and break along treacherous Mau escarpent with an overspending lorry coming in the opposite direction? lol. I'm assuming it's also supercheap because just by visual inspection fuel efficiency it's not its forte.
In good news this is how wakina Henry Forf invented the wheel over 100 years ago when American roads still looked like Mutuas Appian way. We are on the right track.
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Omollo....that makes sense Kabsa. I'm assuming that there are other failed African states that will join in the purchasing of these mahindra coz quite frankly it makes no sense to establish an assembly line for sub par vehicles to be consumed only by GOK. Sunk costs at taxpayer expense most of whom can't afford one.
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My support for them is so that they can survive long enough to improve their quality and compete against the best. We are still far away. Ayacko has not come through with Nuclear Energy and that rules out a cheap Iron and Steel industry that would allow the manufacture of most parts locally. It is up to the manufacturer to get his act together as fast as possible or face death.
Omollo....that makes sense Kabsa. I'm assuming that there are other failed African states that will join in the purchasing of these mahindra coz quite frankly it makes no sense to establish an assembly line for sub par vehicles to be consumed only by GOK. Sunk costs at taxpayer expense most of whom can't afford one.
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Omollo
Do you really believe that Kenya has the formidability to enter the auto industry competitively? I know you will say something along the lines of wakina South Korea but that comes along with a whole holstic economically progressive environment. I'm not shooting down the project, just providing food for thought. Quality 21st century manufacturing is a way of life, and to be honest with you the Kenyan way hardly displays that edge at the moment. But they could give it a shot, everything depends on markets though. As long as people buy to the point of autonomy there is a future.
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Interesting.
You can't blame the manufacturer. GoK safety standards are not worth mentioning. They could come up with something which would require crashing of samples etc but that would put many mhindis out of business. They manufacture the buses you see on the road and manyangas that kill people all over the country. Those contraptions whether buses, mini buses or manyanga are as unsafe as it can get. The upper part is connect to the chassis by two of four thin bolts. The seats are linked to the already detached body by two thin bolts. Most passengers in crashes involving buses die from being squeezed between seats that get detached and push to the front.
One can import safe buses but the lack of standards means they seats are removed and local seats installed. The motive is to create more sitting capacity to make more money. Of course that compromises safety and comfort. I stopped using public transport eons ago because with my height it was just torture to seat in one of these. I was on several times asked to bend my knee. I had no idea how that is physiologically possible!
I guess I am saying Mobibus cannot fail a test that does not exist!
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Yours is The List of Negatives. They are very good at helping a country to start an impossible industry.
When most Asian countries wanted to start the Iron and steel industry, the predictably invited Western "experts" to undertake feasibility studies. Needless to say they would be confronted with a long list of reasons why. For example:
1. You do not have enough raw material
2. You do not have any qualified people to...
3. You do not have enough electricity...
So these countries would use this as the list of things to do. People would be sent to study abroad at great coast and if denied access, they set up their own institutions and hired staff internationally. They found many of their own people having been educated and denied employment by racism and vacuum cleaned Europe and North America of these grateful guys.
They invested in electricity. China went on a damming spree against local and international protests. The focus was on the future.
Need I go further?
Bryana, today's car manufacturer is different from that of yesteryear. I used to drive a BMW and knew it had a Nissan engine manufactured engine. Just because you are driving a FORD do not assume the gearbox is made by FORD. It could have been made by Tartar in India. Companies no longer waste time and money on running expensive factories when they can easily order the parts from elsewhere. So engines, gearboxes, dashboards etc can be ordered and made to specifications. Most car "manufacturers" are really assemblers. Kenya needs to determine what percentage is made locally for the car to qualify to be "Made in Kenya".
Do not underestimate panafricanism. I was shocked to learn how popular Moi was in Africa for that Nyayo car. I quickly became unpopular for daring to pour water on an African effort. The Nyayo car has a place in the heart of Africa and can be sold and bought out of patriotism.
Omollo
Do you really believe that Kenya has the formidability to enter the auto industry competitively? I know you will say something along the lines of wakina South Korea but that comes along with a whole holstic economically progressive environment. I'm not shooting down the project, just providing food for thought. Quality 21st century manufacturing is a way of life, and to be honest with you the Kenyan way hardly displays that edge at the moment. But they could give it a shot, everything depends on markets though. As long as people buy to the point of autonomy there is a future.
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If panafricanism can trump market forces so be it! lol. I'm skeptical though given the number of African elite that choose to send their kids to study abroad while ignoring very decent local schools. I don't see that many Africans dressing in kikoi either. Good luck.
I'm a sober-minded pan Africanist. Globalism is here and real and we have to surf the wave smartly like India. Everyone has some kind of comparative advantage that they should maximize.
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Actually its not much required sold before the car makes it. I think 300 units in a short time would transform it. You know how Spain got in to the car business? Skoda benefitted from partnership with VW.
I think they should soldier on. Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, TZ, Ethiopia, South Sudan, Sudan, Somalia and GoK can each buy 50 each with Gok making it 100. Itatosha
If panafricanism can trump market forces so be it! lol. I'm skeptical though given the number of African elite that choose to send their kids to study abroad while ignoring very decent local schools. I don't see that many Africans dressing in kikoi either. Good luck.
I'm a sober-minded pan Africanist. Globalism is here and real and we have to surf the wave smartly like India.
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Omollo
This is not a kids lemonade stand where the parents and neighbors show up to make the kid feel good about their lemons lol. Until I see clear signs of real demand this thing is stillborn.
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Bryana
GoK is supposed to be a salesman. This whole business of getting in to business competing with private capital is no way to go. Your analogy is just perfect. When POTUS goes to Japan to complain about the "trade deficit"its about kids lemonade. When Bush arm twists the Saudis to buy fighter planes at four times the price (and gives Israel the same planes for free) it is kids lemonade peddled by mom to neighbors.
So nothing wrong with Uhuru asking M7 to buy some of our cars. We can buy matoke in return!
Omollo
This is not a kids lemonade stand where the parents and neighbors show up to make the kid feel good about their lemons lol. Until I see clear signs of real demand this thing is stillborn.
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Demosh (allow me to exercise my oboho roots)
You are arguing from the premise that developing a manufacturing base in Africa will bring in science and technology (cart pulling horsepower). You assume that by importing engines at some point Africans will generate the scientific capital required to manufacture engines competitively. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The industrial revolution in Europe and Americas were the results of centuries of investment in the sciences and especially in the accelerated collaborative works that took from the 1600s after Newton and Galileo. You can trace the history of each and every breakthrough to some very fundamental undertaking. The Asian tigers on the other hand took advantage of their natural photocopy acumen to make things faster better etc.
Africans can't be starting where Europeans were 100 years ago. It's not feasible. There are alternative ways to bridge the gap, social organization and human capital remain the single most important leverage systems in today's global economy. We need to transform the African mind to stop these backward upuzi that badly affect us eg corruption so that we can be global equals.
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I have heard that argument several times before. You actually answer yourself towards the end of your own claim.
Take a new country that God just created from the rib of a Zebra - lets call it Zamunda. The people want to "develope" so they find they need to computerize. Would they go to ITC Museums and collect every old system that Britain or US went through? Of course not. They can very easily computerize by simply investing in the existing systems at their most advanced stage.
The automobile industry has definitely advanced over time. I gave you one example of engines being outsourced - not by one auto maker but a majority of them. I can add that for years British Rolls Royce has sold aircraft engines to US aviation industry.
In many cases the supplier ends up moving production close to the market. Spain was never a big industrial country. The dynamics of modern heavy industry took over. This has nothing to do with the "industrial revolution". Kenya does not have to go through the steps of "the industrial revolution".
Let me cite another example: University Education. Today Kenya has one of the highest enrollments in Universities in Africa. The result can be seen with so many Kenyans in the International civil service (to quote what I know). Of course we can now begin to pay attention to quality and productivity. Yet if you examine the history of this development, you will find it blanketed by matusi from wazungu. The word "mushroom" does appear a number of times. You can go further in history and examine the growth and expansion of Secondary education. You will find and prize the investment of Kenyans in Education. Harambees schools came up amid hostility from the state and the expatriate dominated civil service. In the 80s, when the IMF came up with its Structural Adjustment Programs (SAPs) Kenyans had to not only carry the weight of secondary education through heavy fees and other expenses but added Health to their burden with "Cost Sharing".
So you are preaching Christianity in the Vatican to the already converted.
BTW go slow on whatever you sampling. I try to keep the noise low on this site.
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On your closing statement, implicatory of a spat? None on my end :-). I don't have the energy for it so don warray, the Demosh thing was a FYI. I have a cousin called Omosh, one of my favs. On that note back to my serene bunker lol.
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If GoK can arrange so that the price is like 300K per unit. The manufacturer can also help himself by launching a "luxury"! version which could then subsidize the cheaper version.
I can bet in a few years we will see this car edging out Proboxes and Dx especially in rural Kenya both as a matatu and utility vehicle. Once it catches up with Kenyans I can bet some guys will have to wait up to two years for delivery of their car
Those are the two most important markets,the urban middle class needs a luxury vehicle to knock out the premio,fielder,wish,subaru and there you have thousands of vehicle being sold,
The rural market market too is too huge,you can imagine maybe we have 20,000 probox my guesstimate ferrying passengers in rural areas,so demand is there,
Government does not need to buy 1000 mobius annually,it needs to assist Mobius sell 20,000 (we import 60,000 vehicles annually) mobius vehicle annually and the east African market is huge,Mobius role should be better design while gov should help in low energy,labour and tax free raw materials and other inputs and we are good to go,With 24 in 1000 people owning cars in kenya,there will be huge demand in the next 20-30 years,competitiveness is key for mobius,
Without Prejudice.
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Demosh (allow me to exercise my oboho roots)
You are arguing from the premise that developing a manufacturing base in Africa will bring in science and technology (cart pulling horsepower). You assume that by importing engines at some point Africans will generate the scientific capital required to manufacture engines competitively. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The industrial revolution in Europe and Americas were the results of centuries of investment in the sciences and especially in the accelerated collaborative works that took from the 1600s after Newton and Galileo. You can trace the history of each and every breakthrough to some very fundamental undertaking. The Asian tigers on the other hand took advantage of their natural photocopy acumen to make things faster better etc.
Africans can't be starting where Europeans were 100 years ago. It's not feasible. There are alternative ways to bridge the gap, social organization and human capital remain the single most important leverage systems in today's global economy. We need to transform the African mind to stop these backward upuzi that badly affect us eg corruption so that we can be global equals.
Africans are not starting where Europeans started,we are offering solution to life problems and the way to sustain that is through demand in any sector which is already there,gov assistance is to boost competitiveness to the local industry,local Manufacturing in automotive,electronic,high tech sector and pharmaceutical will assist science and technology because those companies will invest in research and development to be able to build human capital and come up with inventions (solutions to problems) which will be translated into more money,take a look at Samsung and Apple which are worth more than kenyan GDP,they keep on coming up with new things because of their investment in R&D,Lastly,the government needs to integrate the academia with private sector and commit more funds in research and development while the private sector builds venture capital,that's where the developed markets beat us,USA puts i think 3% in R&D,you have silicon valley where private sector is heavily invested in venture capital and a developed capital market that generates wealth,
Without Prejudice.
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Yes the relevant lessons will come from Asia. Kenya really need to study how South Korea,Japan,China,Malaysia and such countries have done it.
Yours is The List of Negatives. They are very good at helping a country to start an impossible industry.
When most Asian countries wanted to start the Iron and steel industry, the predictably invited Western "experts" to undertake feasibility studies. Needless to say they would be confronted with a long list of reasons why. For example:
1. You do not have enough raw material
2. You do not have any qualified people to...
3. You do not have enough electricity...
So these countries would use this as the list of things to do. People would be sent to study abroad at great coast and if denied access, they set up their own institutions and hired staff internationally. They found many of their own people having been educated and denied employment by racism and vacuum cleaned Europe and North America of these grateful guys.
They invested in electricity. China went on a damming spree against local and international protests. The focus was on the future.
Need I go further?
Bryana, today's car manufacturer is different from that of yesteryear. I used to drive a BMW and knew it had a Nissan engine manufactured engine. Just because you are driving a FORD do not assume the gearbox is made by FORD. It could have been made by Tartar in India. Companies no longer waste time and money on running expensive factories when they can easily order the parts from elsewhere. So engines, gearboxes, dashboards etc can be ordered and made to specifications. Most car "manufacturers" are really assemblers. Kenya needs to determine what percentage is made locally for the car to qualify to be "Made in Kenya".
Do not underestimate panafricanism. I was shocked to learn how popular Moi was in Africa for that Nyayo car. I quickly became unpopular for daring to pour water on an African effort. The Nyayo car has a place in the heart of Africa and can be sold and bought out of patriotism.
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Omollo, Its so interesting what you say about Asians deliberately investing in those areas of weakness like education, and bringing back their brains home to propel their local industries. Brain drain is something baafrika suffers from i think more than anyone because we are more desperately in need of all our brains than other places. I agree with Pundit that the government should patronize sometimes, for the good of the people and development. Which is why I did not agree with the move to shelve senator keg, something that was intended as a public safety mechanism and not for profit.
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I misunderstood. I am not great on pet names.
On your closing statement, implicatory of a spat? None on my end :-). I don't have the energy for it so don warray, the Demosh thing was a FYI. I have a cousin called Omosh, one of my favs. On that note back to my serene bunker lol.
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Indeed! It was a deliberate effort to succeed. Instead of reading the Mzungu conclusions and bolting, they decided to address each hardship. It is the process India used to get nuclear technology and has seen China record massive growth in virtually every sphere.
The problem with African leadership (and this from observing many of them closely over a long time) is the greed for money. They just want to have money. They believe their security is dependent on having lots of money. It does not matter how they get it but they need to hit 40 having lots of it. Sadly the frenzy continues even after 40.
Lets look at bad leadership. Look at Mudavadi - the one man I think represents the worst sort of leadership in Africa:
He has been in virtually every ministry since he walked in to the cabinet from Tysons Limited - Marketing and Supplies, Agriculture, Finance, Information, Transport and Communication, Local Government, among others. Yet he cannot name one major or minor achievement during his tenure in any ministry. Instead we have a litany of mishaps, scandals, heists and mismanagement. His presence in some of those ministries has resulted not just in stagnation but a reversal of progress already made. Some examples would help:
He was the minister for Transport and Communication at a time when the World was undergoing a revolution in communication and Transport. He presided over the denial of licences for FM radios, FM Phones (Mobile) and Mobile phones. He restricted the Internet and instituted draconian measures requiring persons wishing to connect to the internet to have their computers inspected at their own cost. The internet and mobile phone failed to take off at a time when Tanzania was recording a massive expansion and growth. Yet this is one of the people considered a "leader"! There is no scandal without his name in it! Goldenberg, Anglo Leasing, Tax Evasion! He even sold a graveyard and shared out the proceeds with his co-conspirators!
As minister for local government, he grabbed and sold Kenya Railways land in Kisumu.
Omollo, Its so interesting what you say about Asians deliberately investing in those areas of weakness like education, and bringing back their brains home to propel their local industries. Brain drain is something baafrika suffers from i think more than anyone because we are more desperately in need of all our brains than other places. I agree with Pundit that the government should patronize sometimes, for the good of the people and development. Which is why I did not agree with the move to shelve senator keg, something that was intended as a public safety mechanism and not for profit.
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Kasarani (why kasarani?) kapedo incident another reason why Govt should adopt this Mobius seriously .... customise it and test it in the rough terrain such that the police convoys wont have to follow the obvious cattle track
relying on toyotas tested in laboratories in Japan wont cut before these areas are modernized