Author Topic: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?  (Read 25273 times)

Offline Nuff Sed

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Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« on: September 03, 2014, 03:28:17 PM »
Bittertruth and Vooke I'm here now. Before the lights went out at Mikate I heard you were drinking the bitter waters of a false theology and saying "hata wakizima taa tutaendelea!" Weee, I'm now here to disabuse you of any misinterpretations on the Bible. What were you saying about immortal souls on TooP? Is the dead soul of Mikate haunting you?

In the same breath I thank Veritas for opening the window for me to come in.

Offline Ole Ole

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 03:34:57 PM »
officially here too. Good to see old friends and a chance to make some new friends.

Thanks Veritas for the invite and congratulations on your new baby.

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »
Bittertruth and Vooke I'm here now. Before the lights went out at Mikate I heard you were drinking the bitter waters of a false theology and saying "hata wakizima taa tutaendelea!" Weee, I'm now here to disabuse you of any misinterpretations on the Bible. What were you saying about immortal souls on TooP? Is the dead soul of Mikate haunting you?

In the same breath I thank Veritas for opening the window for me to come in.

Nuff Sed
Welcome home. ;D
What is was saying before lights went off is that soul-sleep refers to the idea that when we die, our souls "fall asleep" and become totally unconscious.
Conversely, the Bible teaches that believers who die immediately go to be with the Lord. Certain false religions; such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists errantly teach that Christians are not conscious after death, and that their soul remains at rest in the grave until a future resurrection; however, there are numerous Scriptures which thwart such speculation.
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline mya88

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 04:05:13 PM »
Bittertruth and Vooke I'm here now. Before the lights went out at Mikate I heard you were drinking the bitter waters of a false theology and saying "hata wakizima taa tutaendelea!" Weee, I'm now here to disabuse you of any misinterpretations on the Bible. What were you saying about immortal souls on TooP? Is the dead soul of Mikate haunting you?

In the same breath I thank Veritas for opening the window for me to come in.

Nuff Sed
Welcome home. ;D
What is was saying before lights went off is that soul-sleep refers to the idea that when we die, our souls "fall asleep" and become totally unconscious.
Conversely, the Bible teaches that believers who die immediately go to be with the Lord. Certain false religions; such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists errantly teach that Christians are not conscious after death, and that their soul remains at rest in the grave until a future resurrection; however, there are numerous Scriptures which thwart such speculation.

Bitter

I didnt follow the last lengthy discussion due to time constraints, but I was wondering if it is true the soul/spirit departs from mthe body when we die to be with the lord, what then happenes when christ returns......what happens during resurrection? Does it mean the body also returns since the soul /spirit is already risen?
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Kababe

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 04:09:14 PM »
Mya,

the soul is not "already risen". It is simply disembodied. that's what DEATH means, the soul separates from the body and because the soul is the life ("breathe") of the body, the body disintegrates....dies.

resurrection means the reunification of the soul with its body. It involves two miracles that only God can make possible:

1) The body is brought back together again, even though it had disintegrated
2) The soul and body are reunited.

A disembodied spirit/soul is not fully human/fully whole. Human nature means soul + body, so for as long as the body lies in the ground, the human is not whole. We were made citizens of two worlds, that of matter, the dust, this one where we are, and that of spirit, and that's why we must be resurrected. Physical death is a result of the fall.

Offline Nuff Sed

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 04:09:37 PM »
Bittertruth I am glad to read your response although I don't agree with it. It is a pity that we lost all that religious scholarship with the death of Mikate. Since you are a man of God I hope you are praying for its "soul" to be revived and we can retrieve the discussions. I'm not as interested in what Seventh days or JWs say as what the Bible says. Here we have a big issue in Christianity (in some ways, the biggest issue), life and death. We have two opposite ideas - that people die (sleep) and wait for the resurrection, AND the idea that souls are immortal, conscious and alive when a person dies. Who is right? Can we begin afresh or should we pick it up from the last post in Mikate?
I must admit I was surprised that you had ganged up with Vooke to propagate this unbiblical theology. Can we begin with the verses you are referring to? What makes you say when a person dies his soul remains alive? I'm only interested in Bible verses, and we could begin with a biblical definition of the word "soul."

Offline Nuff Sed

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 04:14:43 PM »
Mya88, welcome aboard! You have asked a very deep question that Vooke has avoided responding to for several weeks now. It does not make biblical sense for Christ to return to take believers home if they are already "gone to be with the Lord." If it were so, John 14 would be particularly ridiculous.
 

John 14 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples



Offline Nuff Sed

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 04:16:33 PM »
Mya,

the soul is not "already risen". It is simply disembodied. that's what DEATH means, the soul separates from the body and because the soul is the life ("breathe") of the body, the body disintegrates....dies.

resurrection means the reunification of the soul with its body. It involves two miracles that only God can make possible:

1) The body is brought back together again, even though it had disintegrated
2) The soul and body are reunited.

A disembodied spirit/soul is not fully human/fully whole. Human nature means soul + body, so for as long as the body lies in the ground, the human is not whole. We were made citizens of two worlds, that of matter, the dust, this one where we are, and that of spirit, and that's why we must be resurrected. Physical death is a result of the fall.

Babe, welcome aboard too! This is a matter of life and death (excuse the pan). Can you support your assertions with Bible verses?

Offline mya88

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 04:25:29 PM »
Mya,

the soul is not "already risen". It is simply disembodied. that's what DEATH means, the soul separates from the body and because the soul is the life ("breathe") of the body, the body disintegrates....dies.

resurrection means the reunification of the soul with its body. It involves two miracles that only God can make possible:

1) The body is brought back together again, even though it had disintegrated
2) The soul and body are reunited.

A disembodied spirit/soul is not fully human/fully whole. Human nature means soul + body, so for as long as the body lies in the ground, the human is not whole. We were made citizens of two worlds, that of matter, the dust, this one where we are, and that of spirit, and that's why we must be resurrected. Physical death is a result of the fall.

Kababe

Interesting.....so where does the soul go after it departs from the body? What about all those saints who are departed, are they in heaven or are they all waiting fro resurrection? What about Elijah and another person in genesis who were simply taken up the sky by God?
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mya88

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2014, 04:28:18 PM »
Mya88, welcome aboard! You have asked a very deep question that Vooke has avoided responding to for several weeks now. It does not make biblical sense for Christ to return to take believers home if they are already "gone to be with the Lord." If it were so, John 14 would be particularly ridiculous.
 

John 14 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples




Nuff

Welcome on board...I thought the ship sailed off while you were still engaged with vooke lol. I agree....what is the purpose of resurrection if the sould has already met his maker?
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 04:31:12 PM »
Bittertruth I am glad to read your response although I don't agree with it. It is a pity that we lost all that religious scholarship with the death of Mikate. Since you are a man of God I hope you are praying for its "soul" to be revived and we can retrieve the discussions. I'm not as interested in what Seventh days or JWs say as what the Bible says. Here we have a big issue in Christianity (in some ways, the biggest issue), life and death. We have two opposite ideas - that people die (sleep) and wait for the resurrection, AND the idea that souls are immortal, conscious and alive when a person dies. Who is right? Can we begin afresh or should we pick it up from the last post in Mikate?
I must admit I was surprised that you had ganged up with Vooke to propagate this unbiblical theology. Can we begin with the verses you are referring to? What makes you say when a person dies his soul remains alive? I'm only interested in Bible verses, and we could begin with a biblical definition of the word "soul."
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline Nuff Sed

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 04:37:19 PM »
It's a good question to ask indeed. Again, the theology seems to suggest that the souls of wicked people go somewhere too (presumably hell, if vooke's eisegesis of Luke 16 is anything to go by). So why is judgment necessary? Look at the ridiculousness of people going to heaven or hell at death and God judging them to determine where they should go after the fact.

Offline mya88

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 04:38:36 PM »
Bitter Truth

Does "asleep in Jesus" mean "asleep with Jesus"......there is a coma in that sentence which changes the meaning depending on how you look at it.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Nuff Sed

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2014, 04:43:45 PM »
BT, I'm sure it does not escape your notice that Stephen spoke those words while he was still alive. Acts 7 would have supported your theology if you had concentrated on the words that "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" which simply refers to the breath of life. Thessalonians does not support the theology either. Christ will bring with him resurrected saints, not dead souls. In the Bible there was a prophet who died and his bones touched a dead man and he rose to life. Dead things, let alone dead souls cannot inhabit God's presence and remain dead, simply because God is the Giver of life. So the theology that dead souls are crying under God's throne is as contradictory as they come.

Before we go too far can we get biblical definitions of soul and spirit?

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2014, 04:48:56 PM »
Mya88.
When we die
The soul/spirit  of believer go to be with the Lord.
The soul/spirit of unbeliever goes to hell.  Do you  believe in inhalation? Ive hear the Mormons and JW teach this heresy.
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline mya88

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2014, 04:50:54 PM »
BT, I'm sure it does not escape your notice that Stephen spoke those words while he was still alive. Acts 7 would have supported your theology if you had concentrated on the words that "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" which simply refers to the breath of life. Thessalonians does not support the theology either. Christ will bring with him resurrected saints, not dead souls. In the Bible there was a prophet who died and his bones touched a dead man and he rose to life. Dead things, let alone dead souls cannot inhabit God's presence and remain dead, simply because God is the Giver of life. So the theology that dead souls are crying under God's throne is as contradictory as they come.

Before we go too far can we get biblical definitions of soul and spirit?

Nuff

That prophet was Elisha and to be fair for discussions sake....he wasnt any ordinary man, he had a double portion of Elija's blessing, the same Elijay who was taken up in heaven in a chariot before he dropped his mantel to Elisha. That is an extraordinary situation. Whe he died he failed to pass on the gift/power and was burried with it, that is why when the dead bones came into contact with his body, the dead man started walking.....meaning the gift /power was with him, not sure if soul/spirit was also present. Now to ordinary folks this doesnt apply....... I think.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mya88

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 04:56:58 PM »
Mya88.
When we die
The soul/spirit  of believer go to be with the Lord.
The soul/spirit of unbeliever goes to hell.  Do you  believe in inhalation? Ive hear the Mormons and JW teach this heresy.

BT

I don't really know what inhalation means in biblical context, nor am I familiar with the teachings of mormon and JW. I also believ that when we die, the soul/spirit goes to be with the lord, or I thought, I belived until, I started being curious about resurrection..... now I dont know what to think anymore. But, We are all learning here, so I dont neccessarily thing anyone here has authority of absolute truth but I am open to hearing what other people think
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Kababe

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 05:00:07 PM »
Nuff Sed, when God made Adam's body, it was not alive. He became a living soul once God had infused a spirit into into him. This means that the life of the body comes from that spirit. if it departs, the body must become lifeless and go back to dust. That's what death means. the life isn't there in the body anymore.

There is another kind of "death" in the Bible, which means the soul is separated from GOD. this is the result of sin/separation from God, and in Adam, it resulted in the fall of his own nature including his body and even the world. that's why illness, death and the like become possible and the world is permanently a place of suffering in general...Even after Jesus has come and ascended.

Nothing now works as it was designed to...not perfectly. So when we receive our bodies from our parents, we enter that fallen state and inherit Adam's lot of being separated from the divinity. This state of separation into we which we are all born is what we Catholics call "original sin". We start lives with spiritually dead souls. Upon conversion, its the soul that receives the life which was the gift lost by Adam by his disobedience when he failed the test just like the fallen angels before him. Yet because of Jesus, it is something we gain by a "new inheritance" through Jesus, the second Adam. And God himself comes to dwell in our souls as in a home. This is "justification", the thing you cannot earn, cannot merit, but must only receive. This live grows in you, slowly transforming you more and more (as long as you cooperate with grace) into what you were meant to be, into "another Christ". That's what we call "sanctification", it is a process. Glorification is the final union with God. all those represent how the life of God is planted in your soul like a seedling which if not trampled, will grow into a mature tree.

However, that new life born in the soul that makes the soul spiritually "alive", that reunites the soul with the divinity, that makes you an adopted child of God, does not redeem your body immediately, your body remains in its fallen state and in fact still suffers the full effects of the sin of Adam, suffering, pain in child birth, toil, illness, and finally death itself. the resurrection represents the redemption of the body as well, beyond the fallen body that suffers illness and mortality. The body is reborn almost like the soul was reborn first. Then the universe itself which is also fallen, is redeemed, and we have a new heaven and a new earth.

God never created this world to give it up, he made it for man and he made man to exist forever, with his full nature, not just his soul, and with his "world" the universe, that God had made for him. None of this was made to die/end. You face the dilemma of "why does Jesus come back" because you have a limited view or redemption. everything that was lost is to be returned, including our physical integrity and our universe as it was intended to be without suffering. All of that is the work of redemption, not just souls alone, but all of the creation made for human beings.

@Mya, as you know I'm catholic, so our beliefs here are NOT be identical with what protestants believe.

for us,

people who die in friendship with Jesus (this is what protestants may call "saved" though we have radically different beliefs about that too) will go straight to heaven if they have already been perfected while on earth, that is, fully purified of their fallen tendencies. Those who have still a ways to go will be purged first before going to heaven. However, both are those who have died "saved", if I can use that term. There's no more "choice" after death. once you die, the will's direction becomes permanent and unchangeable.

Those who die separated from God will go to Hell.

the mainline protestant view (not the SDA/JW/soul sleep one) does not involve a purificatory stage for those who die saved. They go straight to heaven, those who are not saved go to hell.

We also believe that at the resurrection, souls of both the just (saved) and the damned will be reunited with their reintegrated bodies

Offline Kababe

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 05:09:18 PM »
It's a good question to ask indeed. Again, the theology seems to suggest that the souls of wicked people go somewhere too (presumably hell, if vooke's eisegesis of Luke 16 is anything to go by). So why is judgment necessary? Look at the ridiculousness of people going to heaven or hell at death and God judging them to determine where they should go after the fact.
There is an immediate personal judgment when you die. The judgment at the end of the world is public and for everyone. Everyone knows why you are heaven-headed or hell-headed. Also, when Jesus returns, there will still be people alive who will not have been judged at all. The Bible says in Hebrews, (9-27) "For it is appointed upon man once to die and then comes judgment". At death all of us will face our maker ourselves, personally, directly, alone. But there will also be no secrets in the end, the final/general judgment when Jesus coms back lays all truth bare to all.

Offline Kababe

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Re: Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2014, 05:24:13 PM »
BT, I'm sure it does not escape your notice that Stephen spoke those words while he was still alive. Acts 7 would have supported your theology if you had concentrated on the words that "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" which simply refers to the breath of life. Thessalonians does not support the theology either. Christ will bring with him resurrected saints, not dead souls. In the Bible there was a prophet who died and his bones touched a dead man and he rose to life. Dead things, let alone dead souls cannot inhabit God's presence and remain dead, simply because God is the Giver of life. So the theology that dead souls are crying under God's throne is as contradictory as they come.

Before we go too far can we get biblical definitions of soul and spirit?

Nuff

That prophet was Elisha and to be fair for discussions sake....he wasnt any ordinary man, he had a double portion of Elija's blessing, the same Elijay who was taken up in heaven in a chariot before he dropped his mantel to Elisha. That is an extraordinary situation. Whe he died he failed to pass on the gift/power and was burried with it, that is why when the dead bones came into contact with his body, the dead man started walking.....meaning the gift /power was with him, not sure if soul/spirit was also present. Now to ordinary folks this doesnt apply....... I think.
It applies to everyone, mya. Its a forshadowing. It shows that God can bring back a dead body from dead bones.

What do you make of the story of Samuel and the witch who spoke to him without his body?

Mya, consider that the life of adam comes from the spirit God breathed into that body. that spirit cannot possibly "die" since its by definition, the life itself. I don't know if nuff sed believes it vanishes (stops existing) after death, or if it merely remains unconscious, but it cannot be "dead". Something dead does not make a body come alive. Question is, if it remains after the death, "where" is it? Nuff sed, the Bible says it goes back to God. What does this mean?