Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?

[Kababe]

Nuffsed, the verse you quoted said Annon was so vexed that he fell sick "with his sister Tamar". That was true. That was WHY he raped her. Are you saying Annon was not sick with his sister Tamar?

[Nuff Sed]

No kababe. All I'm showing you is that if you read in context you will understand that although the Bible records that Amnon was ill (it is recorded that even his friends asked him why he was so thin), in reality he was not. Context helps you understand what the Bible means.

Nuffsed, the verse you quoted said Annon was so vexed that he fell sick "with his sister Tamar". That was true. That was WHY he raped her. Are you saying Annon was not sick with his sister Tamar?

[Kababe]

Nuff sed, you keep saying that the Bible records bad things, THAT is not the issue.

The issue is NOT that the Bible records what Saul did, going to a witch to consult a dead person; the Bible records the sins of Adam, mankind, Israelites, even the sins of the patriachs, prophets and Apostles themselves are recorded. THAT is not the issue!

The issue is that the Bible says "SAMUEL said".  It does not say "THE DEMON said". The only way your interpretation could be true is if we accept that either it was the Witch who wrote the book of 1st Samuel or that the person who wrote that book wrote a plain LIE in scripture and the Holy Spirit allowed it.

Explain Why the Bible says "Samuel said" and not "The Demon said"

i do not see how this becomes a problem if you read in context.

It is a problem because you are claiming that the facts are not as the Bible presents them, that it was Not Samuel despite what the Bible says, that it was demons who were disobedient at the flood when we know it was humans, etc. If "context" means getting to bluntly change what facts the bible records then every interpretation of any single verse can be justified. You just ignore or change the verses that contradict that interpretation to saying what fits your presumption.

[Kababe]

No kababe. All I'm showing you is that if you read in context you will understand that although the Bible records that Amnon was ill (it is recorded that even his friends asked him why he was so thin), in reality he was not. Context helps you understand what the Bible means.

Nuffsed, the verse you quoted said Annon was so vexed that he fell sick "with his sister Tamar". That was true. That was WHY he raped her. Are you saying Annon was not sick with his sister Tamar?

There's no "context" required, sorry nuffsed. Annon was so vexed that he fell sick with his sister. Again it is you who are substituting that verse with your supplementary facts when you claim that he was NOT sick, contrary to what the bible has recorded. I don't care what his friend said/asked, that's not what is important, its what the Bible records HAPPENED that matters and here, Annon DID fall sick with his sister and his rape of her was the result. Its also something that is true in reality, you can be so obsessed with an individual that you become PHYSICALLY sick, especially unrequited love where you cants have the object of your affection. You loose appetite, become depressed, lethargic, its own sets of symptoms and some of them are physical.

There is nothing at all that needs to be supplied with more "facts" to understand what that verse is saying, it's plain. Just like 1st Samuel.

[bittertruth]

[vooke]

Educating Nuff Sed is an exercise in futility. Soul sleep is central doctrine to her sect and she has been stuck in it for eternities. She'd rather defend it with the dumbest illogic you'll ever run into
When cornered these are her standard defenses;
1. 'CONTEXT'
2. 'Many Other Clear Scriptures'

[vooke]

About Ammon falling sick, Please read the verse in ALL of these translations and tell me whether there is doubt the Bible misrepresented the facts
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Samuel%2013:2

Here is a sample;

2 Samuel 13:2 (NRSVA) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (NRSVACE) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (NRSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
Shmuel Bais 13:2 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 And Amnon was so distressed, that he fell ill for his achot Tamar; for she was betulah; but Amnon thought it impossible for him to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (RSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 And Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (RSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 And Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (VOICE) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 Amnon was actually sick with desire for his half sister Tamar. Because she was a royal virgin, there was no chance for him to be with her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (WEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 Amnon was so troubled that he became sick because of his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and it seemed hard to Amnon to do anything to her.
2 Samuel 13:2 (WYC) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 And Amnon perished greatly for her, so that he was sick for her love. For since she was a virgin, it seemed hard to him, that he should do anything unhonestly with her. (And Amnon greatly burned for her, so that he was sick for her love. But since she was a virgin, it was hard for him to do anything dishonourable to her.)
2 Samuel 13:2 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 And Amnon hath distress -- even to become sick, because of Tamar his sister, for she [is] a virgin, and it is hard in the eyes of Amnon to do anything to her.


And here is verse 4
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Samuel%2013:4
2 Samuel 13:4 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter

4 and saith to him, `Wherefore [art] thou thus lean, O king's son, morning by morning? dost thou not declare to me?' And Amnon saith to him, `Tamar -- sister of Absalom my brother -- I am loving.'


The point is you can't accuse the inspired authors of misrepresenting the ACTUAL state of Ammon. The idiot was lovesick and probably depressed as such, and this was easily noticeable by those close to him. Bible says Ammon was sick...Ammon was sick. In fact, the Bible in all those translations of verse 2 EXPLAINS why he was sick. And this is emphasized in verse 4 by the answer Ammon himself gives when aksd WHY he looks horrible. So the inspired editor records Ammon's state and its cause as well as Ammon's explanation for his state. That is not enough to deter Nuff Sed who can't read a single sentence in Hebrew from CONTRADICTING scriptures by arguing that Ammon was NOT sick. Ammon not being sick would prove that the Bible bears errors presented as facts. Nuff Sed is prepared to abandon scriptural integrity to support her beloved heresies.

I have highlighted Young's Literal Translation in red because it as much as is humanely possible renders verses in their original state and tenses. Comes in handy when examining 'problem' verses

 Bible says Samuel spoke, Samuel did speak past death. Otherwise the Bible is lying

Back to Saul. Is it not rather strange that Saul in attempting to reach to the dead Samuel believed that Samuel's spirit survived his death? This is like Nuff Sed contacting her dead great grandmother through a seance. Absurd since she believes the grandmother ceased to exist at death

[Kababe]

In addition, Lady nuff sed, you based your belief in soul sleep (please correct me if I'm wrong) on Genesis and the story of the fall.

From what I understand, this is the KEY for you: God said to Adam, "The day you shall eat of it, you will surely die". And then the devil comes around and says, "Did God really say?" Hence, you believe that believing that a soul is immortal is following the Devil's word and denying God's word.


In the Bible, there is more than one kind of death:

1) There is the spiritual death of sin, separation of man from God, which is what happened to Adam the very moment he sinned and realized that he was naked.

2) There is the physical death of the body which was the consequence of the first death (sin), showing that the sin affected Adam's nature and even the rest of nature that was made for Adam.

3) There is the eternal death which is damnation, PERMANENT separation from God unlike the first spiritual death which is only temporary or reversible.

Now, ALL these three DEATHS came to man (Adam and Eve and their descendants) because of Adam's disobedience, Hence God's warning to Adam was shown to be true.

My question: Why do you think this understanding contradicts the story of the Fall? I would like to understand why soul sleep is for you, the ONLY way you can read that passage.

[Nuff Sed]

pretend to be ill.Then Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill;

[Kababe]

Nuff sed,

You mean this?

Nuff Sed, it is clear you are connecting two things here that are distinct.

In the first, Amnon is sick, alright, just as the Bible says. His sickness is from his love of Tamar and his inability to have her. This is what we recognize today as depression, even the "growing thinner daily" can come from stress. There's nothing at all off or non-factual about the bible calling this a sickness (of the love of a woman) at all. However, this does not mean he had a bodily ailmenti that rendered him bed-ridden. One is clearly a psychological phenomenon... that today's best psychology recognizes easily. STRESS with physical symptoms, but not the other.

 In the second bit where he plots to rape his sister, he is pretending to have an illness he does not have. That does not mean that he did not suffer from that malady of the heart that had caused him to set up this plot with a fake illness in the first place. He basically pretended to be bed-ridden to justify being fed by his sister. So again, there is no contradiction whatsoever. The way I see it:

1) Ammon was depressed because he had unrequited love of his sister. He was SICK
2) Ammon however did NOT have a malady that rendered him bed-ridden, or his sickness did not rise to that level of making him bed-ridden.
3) In order to "cure" his true sickness (no. 1), he faked the illness no.2 and used it to manipulate David into ordering Tamar into his chamber where he took her by force.

If you are saying that When the Bible first says Annon was sick with his sister, that this was not factual, this is wrong. It was factual. Your problem is that you narrow the definition of "sick" to exclude even psychological illnesses like what Annon clearly was going through which have psychosomatic effects.

Annon could only pretend to be ill to the extent that he was NOT ill, this means that when he lay in bed, he was faking an illness or a level of illness that he did not actually suffer. It does not mean that he was not sick at all. Just not sick with the one he was faking or to the extent that he was pretending to be. His true sickness that he DID have did not compel him to lie in bed unable to eat anything.

[Nuff Sed]

In addition, Lady nuff sed, you based your belief in soul sleep (please correct me if I'm wrong) on Genesis and the story of the fall.

From what I understand, this is the KEY for you: God said to Adam, "The day you shall eat of it, you will surely die". And then the devil comes around and says, "Did God really say?" Hence, you believe that believing that a soul is immortal is following the Devil's word and denying God's word.


In the Bible, there is more than one kind of death:

1) There is the spiritual death of sin, separation of man from God, which is what happened to Adam the very moment he sinned and realized that he was naked.

2) There is the physical death of the body which was the consequence of the first death (sin), showing that the sin affected Adam's nature and even the rest of nature that was made for Adam.

3) There is the eternal death which is damnation, PERMANENT separation from God unlike the first spiritual death which is only temporary or reversible.

Now, ALL these three DEATHS came to man (Adam and Eve and their descendants) because of Adam's disobedience, Hence God's warning to Adam was shown to be true.

My question: Why do you think this understanding contradicts the story of the Fall? I would like to understand why soul sleep is for you, the ONLY way you can read that passage.

and bring me him up,descended from heaven, rather than being brought upgods John 10:
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

The immortal, conscious soul theology completely rubbishes this statement by Christ Himself. Worse, it robs God of this central life-giving attribute and falsely attributes it to Satan. It implies that by necromancy, sorcery and divination by those with "familiar spirits" Satan can raise dead people to life. This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive (what a ridiculous thing to say) does away with the story of salvation and perpetuates the first deception of Gen 3.

Please read Psalm 6:5; 78:39; 88:10:12; 103:14-16; 115:17; 146:4, Job 7:9-10; 10:18; 14:12,21, Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-10, Isaiah 26:14; 38:18 for further edification. Have a blessed, truthful weekend and a Happy Sabbath. 

[mya88]

@ nuff sedd

Can you explain to me in about 4 sentences what soul sleep means, I have a problem when it takes inshas to explain a simple point and at the end of it, nothing is clear.

[Nuff Sed]

To condense into four sentences the most crucial concept dealt with in 66 books of the Bible would be great disservice to God's Word. Read my post above, dear Mya88. Have a Happy Sabbath!

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
You misrepresent me and then attack the misrepresentation. That is intellectual dishonesty and the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Why so? I will simply aks you to PROVE that I said so and you have none. I demand an apology for this
Strawman argument again

1. Where did I say that Abraham's Bosom is heaven?
Luke 16 talks of Abraham's Bosom and nothing about the LOCATION of the place. So whether Saul was brought up or down or sideways, is IRRELEVANT. This is the consequence of intellectual and spiritual shallowness and believeing that a quick Google search can impart wisdom

2. Why was the witch scared? She was scared because from whatever she summoned, she knew that was Saul in disguise and Saul had issued decrees against all witches. She was like those cops nabbed by EACC taking bribes...ANYTHING ELSE you are reading into this is UNSUPPORTED and product of heretical fertile imagination hell bent on clinging to false doctrines. Read exactly what she said to Saul next to confirm this.

3. Revelation 6 :9 is an extremely dumb excuse to borrow to prove that Samuel should have been in heaven because it identifies Christian matyrs. Was Samuel a martyr and was he killed or did he die naturally?

Now, twist ALL the scriptures you will and ANY CONTEXT you can imagine but explain to us why the scriptures SEVERALLY identifies the spirit as Samuel and nothing remotely resembling the silly and shallow theological acrobatics you are exhibiting

In addition, Lady nuff sed, you based your belief in soul sleep (please correct me if I'm wrong) on Genesis and the story of the fall.

From what I understand, this is the KEY for you: God said to Adam, "The day you shall eat of it, you will surely die". And then the devil comes around and says, "Did God really say?" Hence, you believe that believing that a soul is immortal is following the Devil's word and denying God's word.


In the Bible, there is more than one kind of death:

1) There is the spiritual death of sin, separation of man from God, which is what happened to Adam the very moment he sinned and realized that he was naked.

2) There is the physical death of the body which was the consequence of the first death (sin), showing that the sin affected Adam's nature and even the rest of nature that was made for Adam.

3) There is the eternal death which is damnation, PERMANENT separation from God unlike the first spiritual death which is only temporary or reversible.

Now, ALL these three DEATHS came to man (Adam and Eve and their descendants) because of Adam's disobedience, Hence God's warning to Adam was shown to be true.

My question: Why do you think this understanding contradicts the story of the Fall? I would like to understand why soul sleep is for you, the ONLY way you can read that passage.

and bring me him up,descended from heaven, rather than being brought upgods John 10:
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

The immortal, conscious soul theology completely rubbishes this statement by Christ Himself. Worse, it robs God of this central life-giving attribute and falsely attributes it to Satan. It implies that by necromancy, sorcery and divination by those with "familiar spirits" Satan can raise dead people to life. This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive (what a ridiculous thing to say) does away with the story of salvation and perpetuates the first deception of Gen 3.

Please read Psalm 6:5; 78:39; 88:10:12; 103:14-16; 115:17; 146:4, Job 7:9-10; 10:18; 14:12,21, Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-10, Isaiah 26:14; 38:18 for further edification. Have a blessed, truthful weekend and a Happy Sabbath. 

[mya88]

To condense into four sentences the most crucial concept dealt with in 66 books of the Bible would be great disservice to God's Word. Read my post above, dear Mya88. Have a Happy Sabbath!

sawa nuff, will do.

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
start thinking for once
Why would anybody equate seance/necromancy with resurrection?

The immortal, conscious soul theology completely rubbishes this statement by Christ Himself. Worse, it robs God of this central life-giving attribute and falsely attributes it to Satan. It implies that by necromancy, sorcery and divination by those with "familiar spirits" Satan can raise dead people to life. This is why misinterpretation of Luke 16, Rev 6, Eccl 9, Rev 13, I Peter and other verses that seem to say the dead are alive (what a ridiculous thing to say) does away with the story of salvation and perpetuates the first deception of Gen 3.

Please read Psalm 6:5; 78:39; 88:10:12; 103:14-16; 115:17; 146:4, Job 7:9-10; 10:18; 14:12,21, Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-10, Isaiah 26:14; 38:18 for further edification. Have a blessed, truthful weekend and a Happy Sabbath. 

[Kababe]

Nuff sed, I think you have the theology wrong. At least for us, I have never heard of a theology that equated Abraham's bosom with Heaven. From what I was taught, the righteous from before the New Covenant did not go to Heaven straight before Christ had come. The old covenants did not suffice to close the chasm between men and God. They waited for Christ to open heaven to them after his death so that they could enter Heaven. I do not believe that the place/state Jesus depicted with Abraham, lazarus and the rich man is Heaven. Hence, the prophet was resting in the same place as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and all the rest (except probably the prophet Elijah), awaiting the Christ.

[vooke]

kadame,
we have tons of disagreement between us but I would NEVER misrepresent your stance and then attack it., prove its absurdity, and then declare victory. That is the hallmark of weak arguments.

Everything that flies in the face of this hollow soul-sleep heresy to Nuff Sed is 'out of context' and 'against everything taught from Genesis to Revelation'.

Angels by Nuff Sed's admission from reading Hebrews 1 & 2 are called spirits. That does not prevent them from existing had having consciousness outside the body. And you can bet they will go through judgement. Human spirits on the other hand, it took Nuff Sed so long for her to admit that they depart the body upon death. Somewhat these are merely wind/breath and nothing

And finally yesterday I thought about Nuff Sed's concept of judgement. Angels sin and they wait till judgement. Humans sin,die, dissapear and then during judgement, God RECREATES them to judge them afresh. Their memories being long gone ever since they died, have to be restored (think re-installed) since God can't judge men without memory. Ultimately,what is judged is COMPLETELY different from what sinned; a freshly recreated thing being judged over things it supposedly committed thousands of years ago when it was non-existent!

Nuff sed, I think you have the theology wrong. At least for us, I have never heard of a theology that equated Abraham's bosom with Heaven. From what I was taught, the righteous from before the New Covenant did not go to Heaven straight before Christ had come. They waited for Christ to open heaven to them after his death so that they could enter Heaven. I do not believe that the place/state Jesus depicted with Abraham, lazarus and the rich man is Heaven. Hence, the prophet was resting in the same place as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and all the rest (except probably the prophet Elijah), awaiting the Christ.

[Kababe]

kadame,
we have tons of disagreement between us but I would NEVER misrepresent your stance and then attack it., prove its absurdity, and then declare victory. That is the hallmark of weak arguments.

Everything that flies in the face of this hollow soul-sleep heresy to Nuff Sed is 'out of context' and 'against everything taught from Genesis to Revelation'.

Angels by Nuff Sed's admission from reading Hebrews 1 & 2 are called spirits. That does not prevent them from existing had having consciousness outside the body. And you can bet they will go through judgement. Human spirits on the other hand, it took Nuff Sed so long for her to admit that they depart the body upon death. Somewhat these are merely wind/breath and nothing

And finally I thought about Nuff Sed's concept of judgement. Angels sin and they wait till judgement. Humans sin,die, dissapear and then during judgement, God RECREATES them to judge them afresh. Their memories being long gone ever since they died, have to be restored (think re-installed) since God can't judge men without memory. Ultimately,what is judged is COMPLETELY different from what sinned; a freshly recreated thing being judged over things it supposedly committed thousands of years ago!

Nuff sed, I think you have the theology wrong. At least for us, I have never heard of a theology that equated Abraham's bosom with Heaven. From what I was taught, the righteous from before the New Covenant did not go to Heaven straight before Christ had come. They waited for Christ to open heaven to them after his death so that they could enter Heaven. I do not believe that the place/state Jesus depicted with Abraham, lazarus and the rich man is Heaven. Hence, the prophet was resting in the same place as Abraham, Moses, Noah, and all the rest (except probably the prophet Elijah), awaiting the Christ.

That's an EXCELLENT point about angelic beings. They are spirits with full faculties of intelligence, will and terrible power. It shows that simply being bodiless does not equate to being unconscious, unknowing etc. In fact, spiritual beings are by nature of a higher nature than material beings, God himself is a spirit. Nuff sed, this is an excellent analogy, what say you? Why would the highest part of our nature be unable to have the two spiritual faculties of intellect and will that ALL the spiritual beings we know, including GOD himself, have?

Another thing, @nuff sed, WHAT do you believe separates us from animals if not our immortal souls? Per your theology, we die exactly the same way as any animal and we have nothing at all about our nature that makes as different. Why do you think God created Adam differently or in a special way, himself breathing into him...what is so special about this description in Genesis of life breathed by God himself into Adam, since you basically think it was exactly the same kind of life as the life the animals have--fully material/physical? In what sense is man said to have been made in God's image? Do you think that refers to our DNA/bodies or something deeper about us that no animal has?

[Kababe]

also, the point vooke makes about the consequences of soul sleep....basically you stop existing. So why would God punish the future you who never did the things the present you is doing? Seems highly unjust, if you ask me. If God is to judge you, it means you must retain a continual connection with your present life as you live it, else that future you will be a totally different creature, not you.