Author Topic: Question to Jubilee supporters  (Read 13472 times)

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2016, 09:19:35 PM »
Moon Ki,

Good that you brought up Ndii's brilliant articles.

I agree, something stinks to high hell with the Eurobond but I doubt RAO would unleash the information he really has.

I personally believe RAO is full of it (as usual) but his cannot bring himself to pinpoint exactly how and to whom the bucks went to.

Why?

Simple; he'll bring down the criminal economy we're unfortunately living in which he himself is 101% involved in (see Mutunga's interview..somewhere here in the forum).

This whole "ati I'll give the names" is pure showmanship, noting more, nothing less.

Campaigning for 2017 and dividing the country, something CORD and Jubilee both excel at.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2016, 10:11:34 PM »
I agree, something stinks to high hell with the Eurobond but I doubt RAO would unleash the information he really has.

A little story: Do you know much about quail?  I understand that quail-farming is (was?) a "big" business in Kenya.   Foodwise, I have my doubts on such activity: most people who love quail are into it for the wild version; the "farmed" version comes nowhere near that.  I know this because I have extensively eaten both versions---my grandmother made the most amazing quail dishes whenever---and have pretty much given up on the latter.   

But that is not the little story, which is this:

My grandmother used to catch quail by setting traps, and whenever we visited we'd go take a look at those.   Once in a while, some bird would hear the cries of those caught in the traps and wander over there.   As soon as humans approached off they'd go.  But quail have limited flying ability, so we could chase a bird around until it stopped and went into some bush.    In such a situation, it was never necessary to know exactly where the bird was; it sufficed to know that it was "in there, somewhere".   Literally beating about the bush (with a big stick) would bring it to the fore, and supper would be had.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2016, 10:36:08 PM »
I agree, something stinks to high hell with the Eurobond but I doubt RAO would unleash the information he really has.

A little story: I understand that quail-farming is (was?) a "big" business in Kenya.   Foodwise, I have my doubts on such activity: most people who love quail are into it for the wild version; the "farmed" version comes nowhere near that.  I know this because I have extensively eaten both versions---my grandmother made the most amazing quail dishes whenever---and have pretty much given up on the latter.   

But that is not the little story, which is this:

My grandmother used to catch quail by setting traps, and whenever we visited we'd go take a look.   Once in a while, some bird would hear the cries of those caught in the traps and wander over there.   As soon as humans approached off they'd go.  But quail have limited flying ability, so we could chase them around until they stopped and went into some bush.    In such a situation, it was never necessary to know exactly where the bird was; it sufficed to know that it was "in there, somewhere".   Literally beating about the bush would bring it to the fore, and supper would be had.
Interesting. 

If the government did the right thing with the eurobond, should they be able to readily prove all the movement of the money from all the involved institutions?  I think so.  They should be able to produce all official documents with the transactions. 

If they are able to produce documentary evidence of the money trail from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Raila would have to eat humble pie.  Why don't they make him eat humble pie?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4210
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2016, 02:10:52 AM »
When Raila railed against NYS he was termed a lunatic. Same thing going on now. I believe they bought apartments in Manhattan. Coincidentally, the USA treasury dept started looking into these deals today. Money laundering.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 06:37:42 AM »
If they are able to produce documentary evidence of the money trail from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Raila would have to eat humble pie.  Why don't they make him eat humble pie?

Good question.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2016, 09:02:30 AM »
When Raila railed against NYS he was termed a lunatic. Same thing going on now. I believe they bought apartments in Manhattan. Coincidentally, the USA treasury dept started looking into these deals today. Money laundering.

Parkerpen,

Would you have a source for this?

Moon Ki,

Apt comparison. The whole problem I have with this Eurobond issue is the government has not shown how the money was used neither has RAO shown that it was stolen.

Who's fooling who?

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2016, 09:12:40 AM »
Treasury has answered all the questions as far as movement of money. Budget Controller (independent office manned by Raila's relative Ms Odhiambo) has okayed Eurobond. She confirmed reciepts and on ward expenditure of the same. The Auditor General has given it clean bill of health. And so has EACC.

What more questions? The arranger of EuroBond and the banks don't have to answer every fishing expedition.

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2016, 09:51:00 AM »
Treasury has answered all the questions as far as movement of money. Budget Controller (independent office manned by Raila's relative Ms Odhiambo) has okayed Eurobond. She confirmed reciepts and on ward expenditure of the same. The Auditor General has given it clean bill of health. And so has EACC.

What more questions? The arranger of EuroBond and the banks don't have to answer every fishing expedition.

Let's see if international investors are convinced as the government wants more:

Quote
Kenya tests international appetite for new debt salehttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/069698d0-babc-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb.html


Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2016, 10:49:26 AM »
Thats the way to go. Exogenous risks (fxs & interest rates) notwithstanding..  The problem with borrowing locally for me apart from fattening local banks who don't transfer the 8-12% to depositors; is the fact that bankers here should concentrate more on lending to private business, households and such....not lending gov. GoK has ability to borrow money from external markets. It should explore those avenues..and cut off domestic borrowing. That will leave banks with no other avenue but to lend and lend more to me and you.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2016, 11:34:28 AM »
Treasury has answered all the questions as far as movement of money. Budget Controller (independent office manned by Raila's relative Ms Odhiambo) has okayed Eurobond. She confirmed reciepts and on ward expenditure of the same. The Auditor General has given it clean bill of health. And so has EACC.

What more questions? The arranger of EuroBond and the banks don't have to answer every fishing expedition.
The banks don't have to answer or even acknowledge any question from Raila.  I believe the same applies to Henry Rotich.

What might one find curious or downright suspicious?  That the treasury appears to have no problem providing such documentary evidence for all the movements for all the other transactions. 

In that event, why consider requests for similar documentation for the trail from Federal Reserve Bank fishing?  Given the stakes, why not just dump these documents online or in the newspapers and shut Raila up?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2016, 12:21:23 PM »
Raila was invited by Rotich to Treasury to examine the books. He derided Rotich and decline. I think heavy redaction would have to be done for those document to be dumped online. You're talking confidential information containing signatures and all sort of details that would make it easy for fraudsters out there.

That is why we have office in constitution mandated to do this. Budget Controller is one....she okays everything..receipt and expenditure...and then post -fact..you have Auditor General allowed to go and ask audit questions.

Raila is just on fishing expedition....and the best they could do in the press conference..is to bring an Alex Owino who claims Jp Morgan South Africa cannot transfer 1B USD? mmmm...really..there are companies in kenya with revenue exceeding that... or even the more laughable that sijui Citi Bank document titled San Jose Or something like that..is not as good as Citi Bank NY...eti san jose would normally dela with cattle :)

In that event, why consider requests for similar documentation for the trail from Federal Reserve Bank fishing?  Given the stakes, why not just dump these documents online or in the newspapers and shut Raila up?

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2016, 04:29:34 PM »
Raila was invited by Rotich to Treasury to examine the books. He derided Rotich and decline. I think heavy redaction would have to be done for those document to be dumped online. You're talking confidential information containing signatures and all sort of details that would make it easy for fraudsters out there.

That is why we have office in constitution mandated to do this. Budget Controller is one....she okays everything..receipt and expenditure...and then post -fact..you have Auditor General allowed to go and ask audit questions.

Raila is just on fishing expedition....and the best they could do in the press conference..is to bring an Alex Owino who claims Jp Morgan South Africa cannot transfer 1B USD? mmmm...really..there are companies in kenya with revenue exceeding that... or even the more laughable that sijui Citi Bank document titled San Jose Or something like that..is not as good as Citi Bank NY...eti san jose would normally dela with cattle :)

In that event, why consider requests for similar documentation for the trail from Federal Reserve Bank fishing?  Given the stakes, why not just dump these documents online or in the newspapers and shut Raila up?
That would be easier to believe if the treasury had not already shared similar documents for all the other eurobond transactions. 

You say they have to redact some information.  What is there to redact is infact the burning question.

If they had failed to release any documentation for all the transactions, it would actually be less suspicious. 

Raila raises a legitimate point, from a neutral perspective.  Showing the documentation seems like a straightforward way to put his claim to sleep.  Unless the documentation is incriminating.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2016, 12:14:26 AM »
Here, again,  is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place. 

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html

It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2016, 01:05:19 PM »
Here, again,  is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place. 

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html

It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".

I think this comment from the linked Ndii article sums it up brilliantly:

Quote
I have two masters degrees (albeit in health-related fields) and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out where the truth in this matter lies. Unlike most Kenyans, I don't have a dog in this fight- I'm equally sceptical of both sides of the political divide. I would support calls for a forensic audit of the Eurobond affair by a reputable international firm to settle the matter one and for all

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2016, 06:05:31 PM »
CBK could authoritatively clear the air, one way or another, regarding the movement of the funds into the consolidated fund.  No?  They have maintained a studious silence. 

More ominously, the treasury has not asked them to furnish it with documentation that should easily stop the damage "Raila is doing" to the economy.  Why?

Parliamentarians aren't worth a dingo's kidneys in this mess.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2016, 09:11:36 AM »
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again,  is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place. 

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html

It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2016, 09:23:52 PM »
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again,  is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place. 

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html

It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
Why do you think he has lost it?

There might well be no scandal as you say.  But the treasury responses are not helping in that direction.  They seem to be making a special effort to keep it as murky as possible.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2016, 03:15:48 AM »
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again,  is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place. 

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html

It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2016, 08:56:18 AM »
His theory is completely implausible. That he why he is going into very laughable conspiracy theories. Ohoo jubilee has shared the lot 50-50. Ohoo Jubilee in cahoot with IMF & WB to hide the heist.

Treasury has explained all that needed explaining. Budget controller are okay with it. The same with Auditor General.

Maybe the next time we should talk about this is when say PAC/PIC bring up something credible.

Not conspiracy theories.


Why do you think he has lost it?

There might well be no scandal as you say.  But the treasury responses are not helping in that direction.  They seem to be making a special effort to keep it as murky as possible.

Offline Globalcitizen12

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 1869
  • Reputation: 2875
Re: Question to Jubilee supporters
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2016, 11:59:36 AM »