Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: vooke on October 06, 2014, 11:00:50 AM
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http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html :o
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We may have some who are out to get rich, but these have received their reward from God.
But we also have faithful servants of God out there.
I don't see any problem with getting donations from the wilful congregation to buy a pastor a car or something. Even pagans do the same.
This is a hoax written by Satanists in an effort to delude Gods congregations not offer tithes, offerings etc.
http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html :o
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They are not telling you not to give, just not to waste your hard earned bucks on charlatans.
Combating pious fraud is not Satanism sir!
You are a coder and I suggest you apply the same level of intellect in examining these things instead of superstition
We may have some who are out to get rich, but these have received their reward from God.
But we also have faithful servants of God out there.
I don't see any problem with getting donations from the wilful congregation to buy a pastor a car or something. Even pagans do the same.
This is a hoax written by Satanists in an effort to delude Gods congregations not offer tithes, offerings etc.
http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html :o
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vooke, Your view unilateral and doesn't see if there are faithful servants who are justly successful. So according to you the Meyers and Osteens are charlatans?
They are not telling you not to give, just not to waste your hard earned bucks on charlatans.
Combating pious fraud is not Satanism sir!
You are a coder and I suggest you apply the same level of intellect in examining these things instead of superstition
We may have some who are out to get rich, but these have received their reward from God.
But we also have faithful servants of God out there.
I don't see any problem with getting donations from the wilful congregation to buy a pastor a car or something. Even pagans do the same.
This is a hoax written by Satanists in an effort to delude Gods congregations not offer tithes, offerings etc.
http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html :o
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bittertruth,
I don't know about their wealth so I can't comment. If a minister engages in biashara Myles Munroe style, talks, seminars, books and rakes mullah, I can't argue with that. But if your primary wealth source is offerings & tithes, you are not successful whatsoever
vooke, Your view unilateral and doesn't see if there are faithful servants who are justly successful. So according to you the Meyers and Osteens are charlatans?
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And I've never heard Miles Munroe spending endless sermons concentrating on wealth, either. Just saying. :D Once in a while is excusable, but if the central message of a minister is wealth, iko chida.
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kadame,
Myles Munroe in 1990 preached at Asuza Conference on Purpose and that has been the basis of his ministry. That's one great negro
you know Paul worked hard outside evangelism to maintain himself and to avoid dependence? One thing I observed early on among Catholics, the priests doubled as teachers. I have tons of misgivings on Catholicism but trust me to give credit where due. Of course serving God may necessarily entail abandoning other profitable vocations and in that state, we are expected to support these people. I don't have no problem with that.
Where it gets hazy is when these ministers who left all to follow Christ parade their wealth (from tithes and offerings) as some kind of achievement. What am I supposed to do to sail in such wealth? Start a church as well? :o . That model can't be replicated in every member of the congregation, so they are better off not gloating. may be that's why Pentecostal churches keep on splitting
The problem with preaching wealth is it is a lie and God does not back up lies. It breeds frustrated negroes who imagine that God has delayed. It distorsts our relationship with God
And I've never heard Miles Munroe spending endless sermons concentrating on wealth, either. Just saying. :D Once in a while is excusable, but if the central message of a minister is wealth, iko chida.
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A pastor should be able to connect with the social aspects of his congregation. Naturally Beverly Hills 90210 pastors are mega-rich as were all the sons of the tribe of Levi according to the state of the Nation of Israel at that time.
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kadame,
Myles Munroe in 1990 preached at Asuza Conference on Purpose and that has been the basis of his ministry. That's one great negro
you know Paul worked hard outside evangelism to maintain himself and to avoid dependence? One thing I observed early on among Catholics, the priests doubled as teachers. I have tons of misgivings on Catholicism but trust me to give credit where due. Of course serving God may necessarily entail abandoning other profitable vocations and in that state, we are expected to support these people. I don't have no problem with that.
Where it gets hazy is when these ministers who left all to follow Christ parade their wealth (from tithes and offerings) as some kind of achievement. What am I supposed to do to sail in such wealth? Start a church as well? :o . That model can't be replicated in every member of the congregation, so they are better off not gloating. may be that's why Pentecostal churches keep on splitting
The problem with preaching wealth is it is a lie and God does not back up lies. It breeds frustrated negroes who imagine that God has delayed. It distorsts our relationship with God
And I've never heard Miles Munroe spending endless sermons concentrating on wealth, either. Just saying. :D Once in a while is excusable, but if the central message of a minister is wealth, iko chida.
I like Dr. Munroe because he is a simple down to earth preacher, plus he doesn't get into a lot of theatrics like many AA. He's well educated, call me a snub, but I think education makes a difference and it shows, though of course character and commitment are more important. There's a reason Paul wrote half the New Testament by himself, while the others, played almost background role. Which is another thing. I asked this question on a religion forum, if all protestants believe the prosperity gospel, and I got a ton of replies saying absolutely No. Its only that lots of people with airtime are in the prosperity camp so it looks like the majority but it is not, and I was told many prominent Evangelical leaders like the leadership of the Assemblies of God have clearly spoken against it. I was made to understand that a good deal of the prosperity teachers have not received any theological training. I don't know if it is true, but in Kenya, it seems true. Those folks on TV are nearly all drop outs. They all got saved today and started their own church tomorrow, without even giving themselves an opportunity to mature first under other people. I always have serious misgivings about people who claim they want to start their own church from another one and then the church they start teaches the SAME stuff they got from their old church. Which makes you wonder if they left for any good reason or just selfishness. And even if you feel you are genuinely called to start your own church, shouldn't you first be a Christian for a while in fellowship with others before you start a church where you are the shepherd?
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I also don't like the prosperity message for the reason you cite in bold. Forgot to comment on that. It gives people false expectation that being a Christian is a ticket out of all the problems of this world. When they come, those problems, someone's faith can be completely destroyed if they do not adjust such beliefs. Because the problems instead of being an opportunity to grow in faith or trust in God, will turn into some sort of "proof" that Christianity is false or that I am unworthy to be Christian because I just lack faith no matter how wiling I am. I like Joyce Meyer though I hear she's in the prosperity camp, but for me, personally, I have not heard her misleading anyone. I have heard her tell Christians to persevere through hard times, trust in God, do their best with what they have etc etc. Since I left home I have not heard many of these preachers but when I was home, I used to hear them everyday, especially Joyce Meyer, couldn't miss her for nothing, coz she came everyday; and one whose name I forget (But he is completely bald, no hair, and teaches in practical ways.) I know he's popular like nothing, but I am not into Joseph Prince, so I cant say much though I hear he's in the Joyce Meyer/Joel Osteen camp.
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Ruud babe you are damn right. We would not be having snow themes around CHristmas trees if Europe had tropical climate
You should watch Preachers of LA
A pastor should be able to connect with the social aspects of his congregation. Naturally Beverly Hills 90210 pastors are mega-rich as were all the sons of the tribe of Levi according to the state of the Nation of Israel at that time.
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kadame,
this message cuts across protestanism. What varies are degrees. I don't want to turn this into a name-and-shame exercise so I avoided names. Then of course I know most teach this in ignorance.
There was a time I was a die-hard fan of Pastor Muiru. That season passed. Along came John Hagee especially after TBN Family Media landed. I haven't listened to him in like 7 years. Joel Osteen, I just get bored after the joke at the begining of his sermon. Joseph Prince is a Christian rapper. Noel Jones at some point really blessed me. TD Jakes I can't stomach. Used to then I just grew allergic. Joyce Meyer is a joy to listen to but I rarely get or make time for her.
I also don't like the prosperity message for the reason you cite in bold. Forgot to comment on that. It gives people false expectation that being a Christian is a ticket out of all the problems of this world. When they come, those problems, someone's faith can be completely destroyed if they do not adjust such beliefs. Because the problems instead of being an opportunity to grow in faith or trust in God, will turn into some sort of "proof" that Christianity is false or that I am unworthy to be Christian because I just lack faith no matter how wiling I am. I like Joyce Meyer though I hear she's in the prosperity camp, but for me, personally, I have not heard her misleading anyone. I have heard her tell Christians to persevere through hard times, trust in God, do their best with what they have etc etc. Since I left home I have not heard many of these preachers but when I was home, I used to hear them everyday, especially Joyce Meyer, couldn't miss her for nothing, coz she came everyday; and one whose name I forget (But he is completely bald, no hair, and teaches in practical ways.) I know he's popular like nothing, but I am not into Joseph Prince, so I cant say much though I hear he's in the Joyce Meyer/Joel Osteen camp.
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vooke, what do you make of this verse? 1cori 9:14 - In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
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so according to Kababe Faith = False expectation.
You remember Jesus teaching on faith. That nothing is impossible for Him if we believe?
This doctrine you propagate is poison. It shows that God is incapable.
When was your life better, with or without Christ and why?
I also don't like the prosperity message for the reason you cite in bold. Forgot to comment on that. It gives people false expectation that being a Christian is a ticket out of all the problems of this world. When they come, those problems, someone's faith can be completely destroyed if they do not adjust such beliefs. Because the problems instead of being an opportunity to grow in faith or trust in God, will turn into some sort of "proof" that Christianity is false or that I am unworthy to be Christian because I just lack faith no matter how wiling I am. I like Joyce Meyer though I hear she's in the prosperity camp, but for me, personally, I have not heard her misleading anyone. I have heard her tell Christians to persevere through hard times, trust in God, do their best with what they have etc etc. Since I left home I have not heard many of these preachers but when I was home, I used to hear them everyday, especially Joyce Meyer, couldn't miss her for nothing, coz she came everyday; and one whose name I forget (But he is completely bald, no hair, and teaches in practical ways.) I know he's popular like nothing, but I am not into Joseph Prince, so I cant say much though I hear he's in the Joyce Meyer/Joel Osteen camp.
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It means ministers of the gospel ought to be supported. THis is why Jesus aksd the disciples to carry nothing while on their evengelism; He expected them to be received and hosted
Luke 10:1-7New King James Version (NKJV)
10 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. 2 Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. 5 But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.
vooke, what do you make of this verse? 1cori 9:14 - In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
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Jesus never promised material wealth to anyone. Those expectations are created by people, not God. Jesus promised us eternal life and that he would always be with us and never leave us, and that God would always take care of us. He never promised us mansions, cars, jets and so forth. The only mansions he promised are in heaven. :D So I do have faith God will take care of me and takes care of me. I have this faith based on what God says but also based on my experience. Yes, before I was miserable. I had all sorts of problems that God has taken from me. I think if I went a different direction in my teens I may probably not be alive today. But I have faith God is my provider. I don't have "faith" that God will give me any particular earthly things just because I want. Some things I want are not good for me. Some things are good for me. Thank God he doesn't trust my puny wisdom when he gives me anything but instead does according to his own infinite wisdom.
so according to Kababe Faith = False expectation.
You remember Jesus teaching on faith. That nothing is impossible for Him if we believe?
This doctrine you propagate is poison. It shows that God is incapable.
When was your life better, with or without Christ and why?
I also don't like the prosperity message for the reason you cite in bold. Forgot to comment on that. It gives people false expectation that being a Christian is a ticket out of all the problems of this world. When they come, those problems, someone's faith can be completely destroyed if they do not adjust such beliefs. Because the problems instead of being an opportunity to grow in faith or trust in God, will turn into some sort of "proof" that Christianity is false or that I am unworthy to be Christian because I just lack faith no matter how wiling I am. I like Joyce Meyer though I hear she's in the prosperity camp, but for me, personally, I have not heard her misleading anyone. I have heard her tell Christians to persevere through hard times, trust in God, do their best with what they have etc etc. Since I left home I have not heard many of these preachers but when I was home, I used to hear them everyday, especially Joyce Meyer, couldn't miss her for nothing, coz she came everyday; and one whose name I forget (But he is completely bald, no hair, and teaches in practical ways.) I know he's popular like nothing, but I am not into Joseph Prince, so I cant say much though I hear he's in the Joyce Meyer/Joel Osteen camp.
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bittertruth,
God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all we can aks or think. No doubt sir!
This thread is not about God's abilities. If God wills, He can wipe away pain,suffering and poverty off the face of the earth in a flash. What is factual is He does not or He hasn't yet.
Poverty like pain,suffering and death is a consequence of the fall of man and it will always be here as long as we remain in this fallen creation. I may not with Paul's spiritual eloquence explain why poverty is still here with us, what I can openly and readily refute is imputing foreign ideas to the scriptures.
There are many Christians who have faith in God's healing power though they are yet to witness it. vooke is one such. A few months ago, a negro lost his baby to cancer. We prayed and waited but guess what, God heals whenever,wherever and whomever He wills. God equally prospers whomever He wills. Prosperity is not your right as a child of God in the same manner as the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Some get wealthy some dont
so according to Kababe Faith = False expectation.
You remember Jesus teaching on faith. That nothing is impossible for Him if we believe?
This doctrine you propagate is poison. It shows that God is incapable.
When was your life better, with or without Christ and why?
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vooke,Am sincerely sorry for the demise. Now, Whereas I agree that God has favour on whomever He wills, how we live in this life determines to a greater extend how God responds to our needs. God can avert or enforce a drastic measures as suffering in our lives for a reason. I always remember Hezekiahs prayer on how he reacted when he received news of his death, and how his prayer touched the Heart of God and how God reconsindered His decision and added him 15 yrs of life.
No body likes to perish in poverty either. But in the face of sufferings, our behaviours determines Gods next course of action. To the complacent, God is also complacent, but to those whose strive for positive change , God is faithful and rewards in commensurate to their faith. God fair and just.
The word " prosperity gospel" was not coined by evangelicals. Please research and trace its roots.
What evangelicals believe is that Gods word has solutions to all aspects of life. The word teaches, admonishes, corrects.
bittertruth,
God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all we can aks or think. No doubt sir!
This thread is not about God's abilities. If God wills, He can wipe away pain,suffering and poverty off the face of the earth in a flash. What is factual is He does not or He hasn't yet.
Poverty like pain,suffering and death is a consequence of the fall of man and it will always be here as long as we remain in this fallen creation. I may not with Paul's spiritual eloquence explain why poverty is still here with us, what I can openly and readily refute is imputing foreign ideas to the scriptures.
There are many Christians who have faith in God's healing power though they are yet to witness it. vooke is one such. A few months ago, a negro lost his baby to cancer. We prayed and waited but guess what, God heals whenever,wherever and whomever He wills. God equally prospers whomever He wills. Prosperity is not your right as a child of God in the same manner as the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Some get wealthy some dont
so according to Kababe Faith = False expectation.
You remember Jesus teaching on faith. That nothing is impossible for Him if we believe?
This doctrine you propagate is poison. It shows that God is incapable.
When was your life better, with or without Christ and why?
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bittertruth,
There is no guaranteed and permanent solution to poverty,disease,suffering and death in the scriptures. These will be done away with at the very END. Poverty among Christians is a FACT of life. Some will ALWAYS be poor regardless of what they do.
Evangelicals would do well to wake up to this reality instead of hawking pie in the sky to the gullible
vooke,Am sincerely sorry for the demise. Now, Whereas I agree that God has favour on whomever He wills, how we live in this life determines to a greater extend how God responds to our needs. God can avert or enforce a drastic measures as suffering in our lives for a reason. I always remember Hezekiahs prayer on how he reacted when he received news of his death, and how his prayer touched the Heart of God and how God reconsindered His decision and added him 15 yrs of life.
No body likes to perish in poverty either. But in the face of sufferings, our behaviours determines Gods next course of action. To the complacent, God is also complacent, but to those whose strive for positive change , God is faithful and rewards in commensurate to their faith. God fair and just.
The word " prosperity gospel" was not coined by evangelicals. Please research and trace its roots.
What evangelicals believe is that Gods word has solutions to all aspects of life. The word teaches, admonishes, corrects.
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vooke, so if I was born poor I will simply die poor? That is according to what you imply above.
I believe that being poor yesterday doesn't equate to being poor tommorow. That's a lie and in contravention to christian faith sir!
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vooke, so if I was born poor I will simply die poor? That is according to what you implly above.
I believe that being poor yesterday doesn't equiate to being poor tommorow. That's a lie and in contravention to christian faith sir!
No one is obligated to be rich or poor. That is the point. God provides all with different means, gifts, talents, opportunities and so forth. We are to do our best with what God has put in our hands. And there is nothing to stop God from putting more in our hands if he so pleases. But if we make the pursuit of wealth an end in itself, as if its the highlight of this life we live, then we are no different than worldlings who pursue earthly things with extreme fervor--status, wealth, power, fame, looks etc--thinking that's all there is to life. Christians should know happiness comes from our grounding in God's love for us, which is free, permanent, guaranteed, and unmeritable, that provides for us in all sorts of ways at every single moment of our existence, most of which we are not even aware. Just because someone is poor, it doesn't mean he is not blessed. To think the poor or those who face misfortunes are cursed is an affront to God's love for all his children. They are no more cursed than you, in the sense that their "curse" is to live in a fallen world which even Jesus lived in for 33 years.
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bittertruth,
That's your own unwarranted CONCLUSION which you are attacking. Very Nuff Sed-esque. I can't defend your conclusions
Am working so hard so that my kids and their kids can live better than me.My life and my family is far much better than what it was when i was much younger. Poverty on a personal or community level is not terminal but it is inevitable and most certainly not incompatible with Christianity. The poor you will always have with you. This is not fatalism but realism that hits you the moment you open your eyes.
You on the other hand are up against brutal reality and ZERO scriptural basis for your stance. Why are you clinging to this poisonous doctrine? Have you ever evangelized among the poor?
I have discovered something both here and .com. Trust negroes to defend they doctrines with all they have and if necessary scriptures
vooke, so if I was born poor I will simply die poor? That is according to what you imply above.
I believe that being poor yesterday doesn't equate to being poor tommorow. That's a lie and in contravention to christian faith sir!
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Kadame, Please stop being ignorant.
I clearly listed the causes of poverty as laziness, fear, disobedience, generations curses etc.
Now you put a blanket and say "BT says that when you are poor is because you are cursed". You should instead critique the above statement and tell me which of these is incorrect and why. This is spurious reasoning.
To think the poor or those who face misfortunes are cursed is an affront to God's love for all his children.
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The Gospels record dozens of amazing miracles that Jesus performed. He healed the deaf, blind, and lame, drove out demons, and even raised the dead. When Jesus healed people, He often commented on the effectiveness of their faith with regard to the miracle.
For example, He said to the woman with a flow of blood, “Your faith has made you well” (Matthew 9:22). When He healed the blind men in Matthew 9:27–31, Jesus said, “According to your faith let it be to you.” And to the leper who was cleansed of his disease, Jesus likewise said, “Your faith has made you well” (Luke 17:19).
This means, Faith affects the physical circumstances we are in. God can deliver a person from poverty, or disease or whichever other suffering they are in- if they believe too.
Poverty is not inevitable, we can end it.
Poverty on a personal or community level is not terminal but it is inevitable and most certainly not incompatible with Christianity. The poor you will always have with you. This is not fatalism but realism that hits you the moment you open your eyes.
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Ever wondered why Lazarus died despite being resurrected?
Why do Christians die just like everybody else? Is their faith insufficient to overcome mortality? 8)
The Gospels record dozens of amazing miracles that Jesus performed. He healed the deaf, blind, and lame, drove out demons, and even raised the dead. When Jesus healed people, He often commented on the effectiveness of their faith with regard to the miracle.
For example, He said to the woman with a flow of blood, “Your faith has made you well” (Matthew 9:22). When He healed the blind men in Matthew 9:27–31, Jesus said, “According to your faith let it be to you.” And to the leper who was cleansed of his disease, Jesus likewise said, “Your faith has made you well” (Luke 17:19).
This means, Faith affects the physical circumstances we are in. God can deliver a person from poverty, or disease or whichever other suffering they are in- if they believe too.
Poverty is not inevitable, we can end it.
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You ask why Christians die? I cant put it better than Paul did
"as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life" (Romans 5:18).
We must all die physically and then face a punishment much more horrible than anything we have ever known: the second death. The Apostle John tells of a lake of fire called the "second death" that awaits all those whose names are not written in the book of life (Revelation 20:14–15). This second death is the final punishment for our sin.
Ever wondered why Lazarus died despite being resurrected?
Why do Christians die just like everybody else? Is their faith insufficient to overcome mortality? 8)
The Gospels record dozens of amazing miracles that Jesus performed. He healed the deaf, blind, and lame, drove out demons, and even raised the dead. When Jesus healed people, He often commented on the effectiveness of their faith with regard to the miracle.
For example, He said to the woman with a flow of blood, “Your faith has made you well” (Matthew 9:22). When He healed the blind men in Matthew 9:27–31, Jesus said, “According to your faith let it be to you.” And to the leper who was cleansed of his disease, Jesus likewise said, “Your faith has made you well” (Luke 17:19).
This means, Faith affects the physical circumstances we are in. God can deliver a person from poverty, or disease or whichever other suffering they are in- if they believe too.
Poverty is not inevitable, we can end it.
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I would only answer this if asked by a pagan, one who doesn't understand the purpose of life.
Is their faith insufficient to overcome mortality?
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Just as Faith in God and His infinite abilities does not spare you from death the same don't spare believers from sailing in varying states of wealth and health ranging from filthy rich to dirt poor
Am sure nobody in their right mind would equate the inevitability of death to God's inability/weakness
You ask why Christians die? I cant put it better than Paul did
"as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life" (Romans 5:18).
We must all die physically and then face a punishment much more horrible than anything we have ever known: the second death. The Apostle John tells of a lake of fire called the "second death" that awaits all those whose names are not written in the book of life (Revelation 20:14–15). This second death is the final punishment for our sin.
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vooke,
Your post just portrays Christ a liar when he said If we have faith nothing will be impossible, if we believe?
You focus on what Faith cannot do rather than what Faith can do. That is a misguided view of Faith sir!
Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "
Just as Faith in God and His infinite abilities does not spare you from death the same don't spare believers from sailing in varying states of wealth and health ranging from filthy rich to dirt poor[/b]
Am sure nobody in their right mind would equate the inevitability of death to God's inability/weakness
You ask why Christians die? I cant put it better than Paul did
"as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life" (Romans 5:18).
We must all die physically and then face a punishment much more horrible than anything we have ever known: the second death. The Apostle John tells of a lake of fire called the "second death" that awaits all those whose names are not written in the book of life (Revelation 20:14–15). This second death is the final punishment for our sin.
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BT, few other Protestants even dare mention the second death. I'm touched.
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vooke,
Do you believe that Faith can affect our physical circumstances?
Do you believe that God can deliver person from poverty, disease or whichever other suffering they are in?
Just as Faith in God and His infinite abilities does not spare you from death the same don't spare believers from sailing in varying states of wealth and health ranging from filthy rich to dirt poor
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bittertruth,
FAITH is not a magic wand that is you wield to achieve ANY objective.
I gave you a simple illustration. Would you attain immortality by simply having FAITH that you won't die? Of course not because death is a given. Same case with poverty,pain,suffering. You cant 'faith' your way out of none of these sir!
FAITH I repeat is not commanding God to do our bidding. And again it is not a blank cheque. If you don't believe me try and create another sun by faith. Or even better, have faith and be God's EQUAL because that is certainly within the realm of 'POSSIBLE' :o :lolz: :lolz:
I don't understand how you are adept at twisting my words and scriptures to accommodate your illogical position. My thoughts and feelings MUST bow at the Word of God not the other way round.
Theology 101
1. God creation is 'good' and 'very good'
2. Man is tempted and falls into sin/rebellion resulting into the less than 'good' creation
3. Consequences of man's fall is separation from God and we see this in pain,suffering,disease,death
4. God is working a plan to restore creation to 'good'
5. Before God restores creation to 'good' the consequences in 4. are to be expected
6. No amount of technology,prayers,reciting scriptures will rid these consequences BEFORE God does away with them
vooke,
Your post just portrays Christ a liar when he said If we have faith nothing will be impossible, if we believe?
You focus on what Faith cannot do rather than what Faith can do. That is a misguided view of Faith sir!
Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "
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Of course yes!
It's your turn now. DO you believe that FAITH can affect your gender, say transform you from bittertruth to Bettytruth or in short give you a sex-change?
vooke,
Do you believe that Faith can affect our physical circumstances?
Do you believe that God can deliver person from poverty, disease or whichever other suffering they are in?
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I know I checked out but sometimes a post is too well written to go unrewarded. This post is perfect!!! :D
bittertruth,
FAITH is not a magic wand that is you wield to achieve ANY objective.
I gave you a simple illustration. Would you attain immortality by simply having FAITH that you won't die? Of course not because death is a given. Same case with poverty,pain,suffering. You cant 'faith' your way out of none of these sir!
FAITH I repeat is not commanding God to do our bidding. And again it is not a blank cheque. If you don't believe me try and create another sun by faith. Or even better, have faith and be God's EQUAL because that is certainly within the realm of 'POSSIBLE' :o :lolz: :lolz:
I don't understand how you are adept at twisting my words and scriptures to accommodate your illogical position. My thoughts and feelings MUST bow at the Word of God not the other way round.
Theology 101
1. God creation is 'good' and 'very good'
2. Man is tempted and falls into sin/rebellion resulting into the less than 'good' creation
3. Consequences of man's fall is separation from God and we see this in pain,suffering,disease,death
4. God is working a plan to restore creation to 'good'
5. Before God restores creation to 'good' the consequences in 4. are to be expected
6. No amount of technology,prayers,reciting scriptures will rid these consequences BEFORE God does away with them
-
vooke,
Without Faith its impossible to please God. I can't believe servant of God has eventualy been reduced to testing God.
This is unacceptable kind of testing because doubt leads you to demand something of God to prove Himself to us.
Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16 in the wilderness, in response to one of Satan’s temptations. “The devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. ‘If you are the Son of God,’ he said, ‘throw yourself down. For it is written: “He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.” Jesus answered him, ‘It is also written: “Do not put the Lord your God to the test”’ (Matthew 4:7—10). Essentially, the devil was telling Jesus to prove God’s Word was true by forcing God’s hand—if Jesus was in peril, God would have to save Him. Jesus refused to test God in such a way. We are to accept God’s Word by faith, without requiring a sign (see Luke 11:29). God’s promises are there for us when we need them.
Negro get this: to manipulate situations in an attempt to coerce God into fulfilling His promises is evil.
You and Kadane seem to have some form of Godliness but are denying its power. Stop testing God and learn to have absolute FAITH.
bittertruth,
FAITH is not a magic wand that is you wield to achieve ANY objective.
I gave you a simple illustration. Would you attain immortality by simply having FAITH that you won't die? Of course not because death is a given. Same case with poverty,pain,suffering. You cant 'faith' your way out of none of these sir!
FAITH I repeat is not commanding God to do our bidding. And again it is not a blank cheque. If you don't believe me try and create another sun by faith. Or even better, have faith and be God's EQUAL because that is certainly within the realm of 'POSSIBLE' :o :lolz: :lolz:
I don't understand how you are adept at twisting my words and scriptures to accommodate your illogical position. My thoughts and feelings MUST bow at the Word of God not the other way round.
Theology 101
1. God creation is 'good' and 'very good'
2. Man is tempted and falls into sin/rebellion resulting into the less than 'good' creation
3. Consequences of man's fall is separation from God and we see this in pain,suffering,disease,death
4. God is working a plan to restore creation to 'good'
5. Before God restores creation to 'good' the consequences in 4. are to be expected
6. No amount of technology,prayers,reciting scriptures will rid these consequences BEFORE God does away with them
vooke,
Your post just portrays Christ a liar when he said If we have faith nothing will be impossible, if we believe?
You focus on what Faith cannot do rather than what Faith can do. That is a misguided view of Faith sir!
Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "
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bittertruth,
I aksd those rhetorical questions to drill sense through your head and ultimately spirit by demonstrating the absurdity of your position of 'anything goes' because with God Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE. Looks like it worked!
The only thing am denying and fighting here is unscriptural and highly toxic doctrine of bliss-after-Christ. Jesus says His burden is light and His yoke is easy but by no means a life free of disease,pain,suffering and death. If you are going to convert a single soul to Christ please cease and desist from promising a disease,pain,suffering and death-free life because you will ruin that soul should they run into these later on.
When Jesus called Paul, He clearly showed him the many things he would suffer for His Name. Paul knew exactly what to expect
Acts 9:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
Would you be kind enough to ignore vooke but not even entertain opposing your Lord and Savior?
vooke,
Without Faith its impossible to please God. I can't believe servant of God has eventualy been reduced to testing God.
This is unacceptable kind of testing because doubt leads you to demand something of God to prove Himself to us.
Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16 in the wilderness, in response to one of Satan’s temptations. “The devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. ‘If you are the Son of God,’ he said, ‘throw yourself down. For it is written: “He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.” Jesus answered him, ‘It is also written: “Do not put the Lord your God to the test”’ (Matthew 4:7—10). Essentially, the devil was telling Jesus to prove God’s Word was true by forcing God’s hand—if Jesus was in peril, God would have to save Him. Jesus refused to test God in such a way. We are to accept God’s Word by faith, without requiring a sign (see Luke 11:29). God’s promises are there for us when we need them.
Negro get this: to manipulate situations in an attempt to coerce God into fulfilling His promises is evil.
You seems to have some form of Godliness but are denying its power.
-
vooke,
Please stop making callous comments about evangelical faith.
God word supersedes logic, if I were to apply your isolated thinking, I would say "it was not possible for Christ to walk over water" because by human standards its not possible. This just demonstrated to us how mans wisdom is nothing but Gods folly.
Negro you need to realize that Faith rises above reason.
Why did God confront Abraham for Sarah’s lack of faith. It is because Abraham himself lacked faith in God. In Gen. 17, we read that Abraham himself laughed when he heard it (Gen. 17:17). Sarah’s lack of faith only mirrored Abraham’s lack of faith.
Sarah knew correctly that she was too old to bear a son. She knew that it was impossible to bear a son. That is why she laughed.
It is not just a question of divine capability. It more also a question of human ability to trust God. God asked the question because He wanted Sarah to trust God for the impossible. With God, all things are possible.
This question for me and every other believer should be. Is anything too hard for the LORD? Is your joblessness too hard for the LORD? Nothing is too hard for the LORD! Is your family problem too hard for the LORD? Nothing is too hard for the LORD! etc etc
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Bittertruth,
God's ability is not in question. You are one confused negro who can't follow logic if your life depended on it. How do you code?
This is my line of argument fully backed by scriptures and reality;
1. God CAN wipe off the face of the earth poverty,disease,pain suffering and death
2. God HASN'T wiped off the face of the earth poverty,disease,pain,suffering and death
3. God DOESN'T wipe off a believer's life poverty,disease,suffering and death otherwise there would be millions of examples of the same seeing the world population has a decent proportion of Christians
4. Existence of poverty,disease,suffering and death does not negate God's omniscience
5. God WILL finally wipe off the face of the earth poverty,disease,suffering and death in the END
Is it clear now?
vooke,
Please stop making callous comments about evangelical faith.
God word supersedes logic, if I were to apply your isolated thinking, I would say "it was not possible for Christ to walk over water" because by human standards its not possible. This just demonstrated to us how mans wisdom is nothing but Gods folly.
Negro you need to realize that Faith rises above reason.
Why did God confront Abraham for Sarah’s lack of faith. It is because Abraham himself lacked faith in God. In Gen. 17, we read that Abraham himself laughed when he heard it (Gen. 17:17). Sarah’s lack of faith only mirrored Abraham’s lack of faith.
Sarah knew correctly that she was too old to bear a son. She knew that it was impossible to bear a son. That is why she laughed.
It is not just a question of divine capability. It more also a question of human ability to trust God. God asked the question because He wanted Sarah to trust God for the impossible. With God, all things are possible.
This question for me and every other believer should be. Is anything too hard for the LORD? Is your joblessness too hard for the LORD? Nothing is too hard for the LORD! Is your family problem too hard for the LORD? Nothing is too hard for the LORD! etc etc
-
vooke,
You statements are either negative or futuristic....CAN, HASN'T, DOESN'T, WILL.
What makes it hard for you to acknowledge what God (HAS) done instead of what he (HASN'T, DOESN'T) do?
3. God DOESN'T wipe off a believer's life poverty,disease,suffering
Ati GOD DESN'T HEAL?
Your lack of faith is causing you to deny his power in the face of disease, suffering, poverty etc.
Gods word HAS delivered and Healed many lives.
-
Negro,
Healing in Christianity is a miracle, isolated event not a lifestyle promised to believers.
Can we say that resurrection has happened because Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? No we can't; Lazarus resurrected and later died not to mention ALL saints born before 1900AD are dead
So God heals but diseases are part and parcel of the consequences of the Fall until the END. Contrary to your wishful thinking,God does not spare his children from the consequences of the Fall
Reciting scriptures and having faith that moves volcanoes DOES NOT spare NOBODY from the consequences of the Fall
vooke,
You statements are either negative or futuristic....CAN, HASN'T, DOESN'T, WILL.
What makes it hard for you to acknowledge what God (HAS) done instead of what he (HASN'T, DOESN'T) do?
3. God DOESN'T wipe off a believer's life poverty,disease,suffering
Ati GOD DESN'T HEAL?
Your lack of faith is causing you to deny his power in the face of disease, suffering, poverty etc.
Gods word HAS delivered and Healed many lives.
-
vooke,
You are one hell of a faithless negro.
So, why did it take you so long to admit that God can heal, restore and deliver? Now you coin your own vocabulary ati these miracles are just "isolated events".
Now give me Biblical references to substantiate your assertions.
Thank God I have been able to force some sense inside one of your brain cells albeit.
Now look here negro as I expose the falseness or hollowness of your myth.
When Job says "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
What was Job referring to?
Again Job 36:42
After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.
Job 36:7 "He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever".
Better still 1st Samuel 1:8
"He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the rubbish, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he has set the world upon them".
Does this speak something about lifestyle to believers?
vooke you are either a Doubting Thomas or Agnostic.
Negro,
Healing in Christianity is a miracle, isolated event not a lifestyle promised to believers.
Can we say that resurrection has happened because Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? No we can't; Lazarus resurrected and later died not to mention ALL saints born before 1900AD are dead
So God heals but diseases are part and parcel of the consequences of the Fall until the END. Contrary to your wishful thinking,God does not spare his children from the consequences of the Fall
Reciting scriptures and having faith that moves volcanoes DOES NOT spare NOBODY from the consequences of the Fall
vooke,
You statements are either negative or futuristic....CAN, HASN'T, DOESN'T, WILL.
What makes it hard for you to acknowledge what God (HAS) done instead of what he (HASN'T, DOESN'T) do?
3. God DOESN'T wipe off a believer's life poverty,disease,suffering
Ati GOD DESN'T HEAL?
Your lack of faith is causing you to deny his power in the face of disease, suffering, poverty etc.
Gods word HAS delivered and Healed many lives.
-
Negro,
I don't need to admit something I haven't denied already and which was not a point of contention. God heals whenever,wherever on on whosoever He WILLS and there is no magic formula of faith+divine health verses= disease-free bliss. How many times have I told you that?
Miracles are isolated events and not lifestyles of believers. Proof?
1. Let's take death. How comes ALL APOSTLES are dead? Couldn't they have just defied death?
2.Now wealth. Were the APOSTLES rich? What about the primitive church? Do you know something about prosperity that these broke believers missed?
About Job, he acknowledged God GAVE HIM WEALTH AND KIDS. How does that translate into GOD MAKES ALL CHRISTIANS RICH? Macedonian Christians was dirt poor
2 Cor 8: (ESV)
1 We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, 2 for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. 3 For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, 4 begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints— 5 and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us
Didn't these guys know nothing about those verses you are misquoting out of context?
vooke,
You are one hell of a faithless negro.
So, why did it take you so long to admit that God can heal, restore and deliver? Now you coin your own vocabulary ati these miracles are just "isolated events".
Now give me Biblical references to substantiate your assertions.
Thank God I have been able to force some sense inside one of your brain cells albeit.
Now look here negro as I expose the falseness or hollowness of your myth.
When Job says "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
What was Job referring to?
Again Job 36:42
After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.
Job 36:7 "He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever".
Better still 1st Samuel 1:8
"He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the rubbish, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he has set the world upon them".
Does this speak something about lifestyle to believers?
vooke you are either a Doubting Thomas or Agnostic.
Negro,
Healing in Christianity is a miracle, isolated event not a lifestyle promised to believers.
Can we say that resurrection has happened because Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? No we can't; Lazarus resurrected and later died not to mention ALL saints born before 1900AD are dead
So God heals but diseases are part and parcel of the consequences of the Fall until the END. Contrary to your wishful thinking,God does not spare his children from the consequences of the Fall
Reciting scriptures and having faith that moves volcanoes DOES NOT spare NOBODY from the consequences of the Fall
vooke,
You statements are either negative or futuristic....CAN, HASN'T, DOESN'T, WILL.
What makes it hard for you to acknowledge what God (HAS) done instead of what he (HASN'T, DOESN'T) do?
3. God DOESN'T wipe off a believer's life poverty,disease,suffering
Ati GOD DESN'T HEAL?
Your lack of faith is causing you to deny his power in the face of disease, suffering, poverty etc.
Gods word HAS delivered and Healed many lives.
-
vooke, this the most ignorant post of all time.
Your failure in reasoning renders this topic non-sequitur.
Negro kwani you fear death?? Ati how come all apostles are dead. This is the most illogical crap that I can't take any more.
Negro,
I don't need to admit something I haven't denied already and which was not a point of contention. God heals whenever,wherever on on whosoever He WILLS and there is no magic formula of faith+divine health verses= disease-free bliss. How many times have I told you that?
Miracles are isolated events and not lifestyles of believers. Proof?
1. Let's take death. How comes ALL APOSTLES are dead? Couldn't they have just defied death?
2.Now wealth. Were the APOSTLES rich? What about the primitive church? Do you know something about prosperity that these broke believers missed?
About Job, he acknowledged God GAVE HIM WEALTH AND KIDS. How does that translate into GOD MAKES ALL CHRISTIANS RICH? Macedonian Christians was dirt poor
2 Cor 8: (ESV)
1 We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, 2 for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. 3 For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, 4 begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints— 5 and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us
Didn't these guys know nothing about those verses you are misquoting out of context?
vooke,
You are one hell of a faithless negro.
So, why did it take you so long to admit that God can heal, restore and deliver? Now you coin your own vocabulary ati these miracles are just "isolated events".
Now give me Biblical references to substantiate your assertions.
Thank God I have been able to force some sense inside one of your brain cells albeit.
Now look here negro as I expose the falseness or hollowness of your myth.
When Job says "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
What was Job referring to?
Again Job 36:42
After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.
Job 36:7 "He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever".
Better still 1st Samuel 1:8
"He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the rubbish, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he has set the world upon them".
Does this speak something about lifestyle to believers?
vooke you are either a Doubting Thomas or Agnostic.
Negro,
Healing in Christianity is a miracle, isolated event not a lifestyle promised to believers.
Can we say that resurrection has happened because Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? No we can't; Lazarus resurrected and later died not to mention ALL saints born before 1900AD are dead
So God heals but diseases are part and parcel of the consequences of the Fall until the END. Contrary to your wishful thinking,God does not spare his children from the consequences of the Fall
Reciting scriptures and having faith that moves volcanoes DOES NOT spare NOBODY from the consequences of the Fall
vooke,
You statements are either negative or futuristic....CAN, HASN'T, DOESN'T, WILL.
What makes it hard for you to acknowledge what God (HAS) done instead of what he (HASN'T, DOESN'T) do?
3. God DOESN'T wipe off a believer's life poverty,disease,suffering
Ati GOD DESN'T HEAL?
Your lack of faith is causing you to deny his power in the face of disease, suffering, poverty etc.
Gods word HAS delivered and Healed many lives.
-
You have repeatedly presented Christians armed with FAITH and God's Word as invincible and capable of immunity from vagaries of life such as poverty,disease and so forth
Why couldn't they just exercise faith and DEFY nature/death as well?
vooke, this the most ignorant post of all time.
Your failure in reasoning renders this topic non-sequitur.
Negro kwani you fear death?? Ati how come all apostles are dead. This is the most illogical crap that I can't take any more.
-
Do you know what the armour of God is?
You have repeatedly presented Christians armed with FAITH and God's Word as invincible and capable of immunity from vagaries of life such as poverty,disease and so forth
Why couldn't they just exercise faith and DEFY nature/death as well?
vooke, this the most ignorant post of all time.
Your failure in reasoning renders this topic non-sequitur.
Negro kwani you fear death?? Ati how come all apostles are dead. This is the most illogical crap that I can't take any more.
-
Please share with me
Do you know what the armour of God is?
-
Aluta continua..
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Use this to wage warfare negro,
Psalms 27:2-3 (KJV)
2 When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh,
they stumbled and fell.
3 Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear:
though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.
Your enemy is more vicious than you can imagine but greater is He who is in you than your adversary
Lala salama ndugu :015: :015: :015: :015: :015:
Aluta continua..