Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Globalcitizen12 on November 15, 2016, 07:11:37 AM
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I have done so well financially this year but I have to say I have seen shit and I have sense that there is something terribly wrong on the horizon. Everyone seems uneasy especially in the west. Folks are not being able to settle. The stock market is rolling profits are higher than they have been in the last 8 years but there is that dejavu feeling. I never thought Trump presidency would cause me to rethink so much and to be so conflicted about my place in these United states of America. I had liked his message in the primaries I thought he had a role to play in representing the underserved masses. However, his rhetoric just went too far.
Then I realized that the people supporting him were not angry because they lack opportunity but because they feel power slipping out of their hands and into hands of people they do not consider equals. You only have to have lived in USA for a longtime to learn that the hate for Obama was race driven and it showed the ugly ghost of racism against Africans in these country is not done but lives on in the hearts of many.
The failure for GOP to stand up to the racists within the Tea party is what is now threatening to tear down the fabric that holds this country together. The GOP leadership did not fail because of corruption but because of being moral cowards. To see conservatives groveling at the feet of demagogue is just sad affairs. There are a few men in GOP who have stood up to these racists of these world like governor of Ohio and the Bush Family.
The only former president who may be having grown in the south could understand the Obama hate and call was Jim Carter.
Decent people can tell a wrong from a right without be apologetic about it. Trump was never a racist but political expediency has allowed his demagoguery to embrace racism and to be mobilize support in that basis.
I hope GOP family will now turn on each other. Like Nyerere warned once you start with a vice like tribalism you do not end until you self cannibalize.
Look at the two Rutos in Kenya .. Now that the other tribes have kept away the war is now being fought between brothers.
The myth that Trump supporters are poor
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/
There is no other way to explain Trump Presidency. It is race stupid.
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I think we should develop Africa before we concur the rest of the world.
No one has ruled out that colonialism will not come back and when it does we should be prepared.
Germany merkel has declared that Africa need a Marshall plan to stop its refugees from reaching Europe. It seems they prefer middle eastern refugees to poor Africans in those places.
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colonialism or slavery are not coming back as we knew them. They were too costly and too inefficient. There are much better, more profitable and cost effective means of colonizing and enslaving the black people. In the old days, the educated white men were able to control the poor uneducated ignorant white men. Democracy, Capitalism and internet has made it now very difficult for the establishment white men to control the uneducated white common man and its interesting to watch this play before us with the campaign and the election of Donald Trump. Before "one man, one vote", America only allowed not just man to vote but one had to own property to be allowed to vote. In those days only the elite owned land. The power of the vote was considered too dangerous to be entrusted upon ignorant poor white men, women, children and blacks. America is the oldest democracy and those who study democracy have been wondering what happens to democracy when it gets old. It seems to resemble the life of a person where one starts life weak and helpless and if they live long enough they end up the same way, weak and helpless. OR is Democracy capable of self-renewal once or twice.
I think we should develop Africa before we concur the rest of the world.
No one has ruled out that colonialism will not come back and when it does we should be prepared.
Germany merkel has declared that Africa need a Marshall plan to stop its refugees from reaching Europe. It seems they prefer middle eastern refugees to poor Africans in those places.
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Good point. Most immigrants want white folks not to vote for their self interest. If they feel overwhelmed by newcomers from Africa, Asia, Middle East, Latin America, etc why should they not exercise their freedom and say no? I think they are eons ahead of our tribalism. In Kenya lots of the people seem to detest the growing number of Somalis in Nairobi, etc, it's a banal instinct.
Their attitude is simple: Build your damn Mexican, Arabic and African homes, stop invading our country. I feel them.
The "rise of the far right" is blowing through most of Europe too due to mass immigration condoned by the Left. That said I don't expect the system to go bust any time soon. Trump and GOP will tighten visas / green cards and control the situation to a manageable level. Ditto for Western Europe. Democracy is supposed to be self sustaining.
I think we should develop Africa before we concur the rest of the world.
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I have done so well financially this year
So swell. Glad you are making it big bro.
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I have to say, though, I just don't buy this 'racism' claim at all. It sounds a bit overblown to me. I mean, think about it. Trump won over the same states that gave Obama the presidency twice! You just don't get to be black and president in a racist 70%-white country..You just DON'T! Mathematics. That is a simplistic reason Democrats are giving themselves and is just silly. Americans are sooo racist they rejected a WHITE woman after voting for a BLACK President TWICE!!! How is this even getting any traction at all?
I'll paint you a picture: Imagine a Luo, say Obama himself, winning a country with a 70% Kikuyu population against a Kikuyu contender....Can you picture it? Didn't think so! The racism card makes little sense. It's propaganda.
The U.S. is indeed a big tribalist country, no better than Kenya. This is very stark now. But their tribes are not ethnic or racist but ideologic, and the ideologies really are pseudo-religions which give many people their identities. Result? Divisions no better than divisions across formal religions or ethnicities.
People have stopped debating the other side entirely. They have stopped talking. They dismiss the other side as made up entirely of uni-dimensional robots motivated only by the 'hate' command. I have been looking at alternative media all year and I just don't buy this line the main-stream media is feeding Democratic voters.
There are some nutty right-wing white-supremacists who have come out for Trump, sure! They are a very tiny group, though. By far, Trump's voters are driven by opposition to certain policies that have come from the left. But an invisible, almost impenetrable wall has sprung up between these two big tribes that American politics has created. So liberals haven't the faintest idea what conservatives are actually beefing about and are content to say "hate, racism, misogyny"...blablabla...driven by their propagandist media that has proven to be no better than Fox. Simply amazing to watch! :o
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I have to say, though, I just don't buy this 'racism' claim at all. It sounds a bit overblown to me. I mean, think about it. Trump won over the same states that gave Obama the presidency twice! You just don't get to be black and president in a racist 70%-white country..You just DON'T! Mathematics. That is a simplistic reason Democrats are giving themselves and is just silly. Americans are sooo racist they rejected a WHITE woman after voting for a BLACK President TWICE!!! How is this even getting any traction at all?
I'll paint you a picture: Imagine a Luo, say Obama himself, winning a country with a 70% Kikuyu population against a Kikuyu contender....Can you picture it? Didn't think so! The racism card makes little sense. It's propaganda.
The U.S. is indeed a big tribalist country, no better than Kenya. This is very stark now. But their tribes are not ethnic or racist but ideologic, and the ideologies really are pseudo-religions which give many people their identities. Result? Divisions no better than divisions across formal religions or ethnicities.
People have stopped debating the other side entirely. They have stopped talking. They dismiss the other side as made up entirely of uni-dimensional robots motivated only by the 'hate' command. I have been looking at alternative media all year and I just don't buy this line the main-stream media is feeding Democratic voters.
There are some nutty right-wing white-supremacists who have come out for Trump, sure! They are a very tiny group, though. By far, Trump's voters are driven by opposition to certain policies that have come from the left. But an invisible, almost impenetrable wall has sprung up between these two big tribes that American politics has created. So liberals haven't the faintest idea what conservatives are actually beefing about and are content to say "hate, racism, misogyny"...blablabla...driven by their propagandist media that has proven to be no better than Fox. Simply amazing to watch! :o
Eloquently put, couldn't agree more.
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Kadame - what a refreshing read!
I have to say, though, I just don't buy this 'racism' claim at all. It sounds a bit overblown to me. I mean, think about it. Trump won over the same states that gave Obama the presidency twice! You just don't get to be black and president in a racist 70%-white country..You just DON'T! Mathematics. That is a simplistic reason Democrats are giving themselves and is just silly. Americans are sooo racist they rejected a WHITE woman after voting for a BLACK President TWICE!!! How is this even getting any traction at all?
I'll paint you a picture: Imagine a Luo, say Obama himself, winning a country with a 70% Kikuyu population against a Kikuyu contender....Can you picture it? Didn't think so! The racism card makes little sense. It's propaganda.
The U.S. is indeed a big tribalist country, no better than Kenya. This is very stark now. But their tribes are not ethnic or racist but ideologic, and the ideologies really are pseudo-religions which give many people their identities. Result? Divisions no better than divisions across formal religions or ethnicities.
People have stopped debating the other side entirely. They have stopped talking. They dismiss the other side as made up entirely of uni-dimensional robots motivated only by the 'hate' command. I have been looking at alternative media all year and I just don't buy this line the main-stream media is feeding Democratic voters.
There are some nutty right-wing white-supremacists who have come out for Trump, sure! They are a very tiny group, though. By far, Trump's voters are driven by opposition to certain policies that have come from the left. But an invisible, almost impenetrable wall has sprung up between these two big tribes that American politics has created. So liberals haven't the faintest idea what conservatives are actually beefing about and are content to say "hate, racism, misogyny"...blablabla...driven by their propagandist media that has proven to be no better than Fox. Simply amazing to watch! :o
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Kadame5
These voters were caught up in euphoria of Obama hope message when that ended they looked inwards and started to listen to what others were saying. How do you explain 8 years of obstructing obama, disrespecting him to an extent where even his CIC STATUS would be challenged openly. Never in the history of this has a president been disrespected like obama.
Tea party resurrection within GOP was a start of this movement. Do you propaganda sites like breitbart news have become popular for no reason?
The myth that these are uneducated poor voters has been debunked. So how else do we explain trump presidency
American racism runs deep you just to have interacted with Americans long to understand how it works. Most of these voters were claiming they voting for trump because of economic reasons but in their rallies this was secondary. targeting Mexicans is an excuse to use illegal immigration as a straw for their argument against diversity.
I think people like carson are now realizing though late in the game that trump supporters had an agenda that was not people like him and he was used as a token.
I am on phone will edit later
GOP congress has some of the most radical nationalists and these are the people who mobilized for trump. Even trump himself is getting worried that his supporters took his rhetoric seriously.
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But we had the same scenario in Kenya. In 2002 Luos voted for Kibaki to a man and Orengo received not more than 5% of luo vote. In 2007 luos voted against Kibaki to a man. What changed was not tribe but issues. Kale's voted for Raila to a men in 2007 and against him in 2013. I think tribalism or racism or regionalism or religion will always be factors but you need an issue to sway it one way or the other. You cannot rely on tribalism or racism to be the only factor in every single election. The 206 US election was perfect for racism but the issue was CHANGE from the Obama years. Trump cannot run the same campaign in 2020 and expect the same results. 2020 will be about his achievements and blatent racism like he did this year will not work.
In Kenya ICC case against Ouru and Ruto united kikuyus and Kalenjins. In 2017 the bond between the Kalenjins and the Kikuyus will not be as strong as in 2013 because the ICC issue is no longer there. They will have to create another issue to strengthen their bond or ouru will loose a lot of Kale's. I do not know if he will lose enough kale's to lose the elections but one thing I know, in 2022, Ruto needs a brand new issue to keep Kale's and kikuyus together and I do not know where he will find that issue. On the CORD side, they too need an issue to get the other tribes bonded. I do not know if "corruption" will do it for them but they have to give it a shot. In conclusion, tribalism and racism alone cannot do it-you need a STRONG ISSUE whether in Kenya or in the United States to combine with tribalism or racism to win. This only works if the elections are free and fair. If elections are not free and fair as in Kenya then it does not matter.
I have to say, though, I just don't buy this 'racism' claim at all. It sounds a bit overblown to me. I mean, think about it. Trump won over the same states that gave Obama the presidency twice! You just don't get to be black and president in a racist 70%-white country..You just DON'T! Mathematics. That is a simplistic reason Democrats are giving themselves and is just silly. Americans are sooo racist they rejected a WHITE woman after voting for a BLACK President TWICE!!! How is this even getting any traction at all?
I'll paint you a picture: Imagine a Luo, say Obama himself, winning a country with a 70% Kikuyu population against a Kikuyu contender....Can you picture it? Didn't think so! The racism card makes little sense. It's propaganda.
The U.S. is indeed a big tribalist country, no better than Kenya. This is very stark now. But their tribes are not ethnic or racist but ideologic, and the ideologies really are pseudo-religions which give many people their identities. Result? Divisions no better than divisions across formal religions or ethnicities.
People have stopped debating the other side entirely. They have stopped talking. They dismiss the other side as made up entirely of uni-dimensional robots motivated only by the 'hate' command. I have been looking at alternative media all year and I just don't buy this line the main-stream media is feeding Democratic voters.
There are some nutty right-wing white-supremacists who have come out for Trump, sure! They are a very tiny group, though. By far, Trump's voters are driven by opposition to certain policies that have come from the left. But an invisible, almost impenetrable wall has sprung up between these two big tribes that American politics has created. So liberals haven't the faintest idea what conservatives are actually beefing about and are content to say "hate, racism, misogyny"...blablabla...driven by their propagandist media that has proven to be no better than Fox. Simply amazing to watch! :o
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I’ve re-read your claim above. Yours is an interesting and a simple way to explain Trump win. It is an optmistic way to look at this. It is a deflective way to explain trump Phenomenal. I know we liberals are first to claim Racism first to deflect from our own shortcomings. However, we have to ask ourselves why would a sane voter, an educated voter, a smart voter, reject a candidate that party has delivered for this voter.
• The Trump poor voters are biggest beneficiary of Obamacare
• They are the biggest benefeciary of New Jobs training programs and community colleges grants
• They are the biggest beneficiary of Obama extending social safety nets during recession
• Their educated counterparts are biggest beneficiary of New jobs and increased company profits
• The educated ones are the biggest beneficiary of Obama government spending in infrastructure
Then why would the same group wear Hilter Masks and moustaches rallying to take back their country. Who are they taking the country back from? because in their neighborhood very few brown people live there. I will post a map of PA voting pattern to illustrate. Taking back is a code word for the power is in the wrong race.
If we are talking about social issues arbortion and LGBT rights. Trump supported these rights way before Obama. Obama was homophobic in his first term until his kids made him “evolve” on this issue.
If they wanted someone tough on crime the clintons are known to have started the growth ofprivate prisons. She would have been been best place to fight herion ependemic killing many white families in Surburbans. She and her husband fought crack ependemic and won at a huge cost to some communities
The idea that poor voters were the backbone supporters of Trump has been shattered. The post racial society we hoped had been ushered after obama was voted twice is all but a mirage. Race in America is thicker than blood. Obama election was possible because the economic future of USA was at stake and he seemed as a safe candidate for everyone. The two elections for obama was Americans voting with their wallets not heart and mind.
I wont rehearse how obama got reelected but without Irag and Afghan wars and economic meltdown Obama would fallen to McCain or Hillary. The White women were first to embrace him and men followed.
If you are looking at radical websites and propaganda sites to find out Trump supporters talking you can continue looking. These voters know what they are doing is not acceptable so they have embraced silence as their weapon.
70% of Kikuyus can elect a Luo candidate if they are faced by a challenge that threatens their security. Watch Ruto get over 70% in 2022. Kikuyus will be voting to keep peace rest the Mandagos of this world carry out their threats.
Moi became Kikuyu choice in 1978 and 1983 after coup because of the same reasons. The Kikuyu masses wanted security and Moi provided that.
The people who should be fighting Mexicans are AAs. They are the ones more likely to be displaced from a job by Mexicans.
The white population is feeling threatned to the browning of America and this is testing the willingness of this group to embrace the future.
Biden was the security for this group and their dominance still matters
Pence is now their security in Trump that they matter.
Remember Moi always kept several Kikuyus as VPs and a few dockets were put aside for Kikuyus eg Finance. Moi knew that Tribe matters. Trump knows race matters.
Ben Carson must have been told by his PR team to stay away if he wants to remain relevant in future and continue selling “snake oil” in terms of books
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I concur with you, the American economy is doing very well despite years of Republican obstruction. Remember when Obama talked about "shovel ready" projects?
Now they want to embrace those projects. The problem is they are not inccreasing taxes rather spending and that will swell the debt. This has made me turn into an activist. No tax cuts!!
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I have to say, though, I just don't buy this 'racism' claim at all. It sounds a bit overblown to me. I mean, think about it. Trump won over the same states that gave Obama the presidency twice! You just don't get to be black and president in a racist 70%-white country..You just DON'T! Mathematics. That is a simplistic reason Democrats are giving themselves and is just silly. Americans are sooo racist they rejected a WHITE woman after voting for a BLACK President TWICE!!! How is this even getting any traction at all?
I'll paint you a picture: Imagine a Luo, say Obama himself, winning a country with a 70% Kikuyu population against a Kikuyu contender....Can you picture it? Didn't think so! The racism card makes little sense. It's propaganda.
The U.S. is indeed a big tribalist country, no better than Kenya. This is very stark now. But their tribes are not ethnic or racist but ideologic, and the ideologies really are pseudo-religions which give many people their identities. Result? Divisions no better than divisions across formal religions or ethnicities.
People have stopped debating the other side entirely. They have stopped talking. They dismiss the other side as made up entirely of uni-dimensional robots motivated only by the 'hate' command. I have been looking at alternative media all year and I just don't buy this line the main-stream media is feeding Democratic voters.
There are some nutty right-wing white-supremacists who have come out for Trump, sure! They are a very tiny group, though. By far, Trump's voters are driven by opposition to certain policies that have come from the left. But an invisible, almost impenetrable wall has sprung up between these two big tribes that American politics has created. So liberals haven't the faintest idea what conservatives are actually beefing about and are content to say "hate, racism, misogyny"...blablabla...driven by their propagandist media that has proven to be no better than Fox. Simply amazing to watch! :o
Trump is a racist who rode the wave of racism to power. It is not a new thing or strategy. He was just more effective with good old fashioned Republican strategy. Some of it was appeal. Some, just good luck - I say this because he got the only person he could conceivably beat from the other side.
It's important to note that he won the swing states Obama won. That is not the same thing as the vote that Obama won. Put another way, he did not win because Obama voters turned to him, even if some may have voted for him. Most of his support came from a group that will never vote for a black man in a million years.
A few clarifications might demonstrate the point.
The swing states that Obama won, some of them were by a whisker. The winner-takes all Electoral college tends to magnify the outcomes. They are the kind of outcomes that can easily be overturned by things like turnout. And turnout is where Hillary got beat in the swing states. Trump barely tops up Romney's numbers in 2012, and Hillary dips under Obama's.
Overall, Trump actually got fewer popular votes than the last four Presidential candidates, including Mitt Romney in 2012. Hillary won the popular vote and she barely squeaked by Mitt Romney's numbers.
Granted, the narrative of racists coming out from under their rocks in droves to push Trump over is overstated. They voted for him more or less the same way the racists(practically the entire Republican party) normally do for Republicans when they do well. Hillary lost because she could not raise the same levels of enthusiasm that Obama did.
The difference this time was that the racism was less circumspect than usual.
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I’ve re-read your claim above. Yours is an interesting and a simple way to explain Trump win. It is an optmistic way to look at this. It is a deflective way to explain trump Phenomenal. I know we liberals are first to claim Racism first to deflect from our own shortcomings. However, we have to ask ourselves why would a sane voter, an educated voter, a smart voter, reject a candidate that party has delivered for this voter.
• The Trump poor voters are biggest beneficiary of Obamacare
• They are the biggest benefeciary of New Jobs training programs and community colleges grants
• They are the biggest beneficiary of Obama extending social safety nets during recession
• Their educated counterparts are biggest beneficiary of New jobs and increased company profits
• The educated ones are the biggest beneficiary of Obama government spending in infrastructure
Then why would the same group wear Hilter Masks and moustaches rallying to take back their country. Who are they taking the country back from? because in their neighborhood very few brown people live there. I will post a map of PA voting pattern to illustrate. Taking back is a code word for the power is in the wrong race.
If we are talking about social issues arbortion and LGBT rights. Trump supported these rights way before Obama. Obama was homophobic in his first term until his kids made him “evolve” on this issue.
If they wanted someone tough on crime the clintons are known to have started the growth ofprivate prisons. She would have been been best place to fight herion ependemic killing many white families in Surburbans. She and her husband fought crack ependemic and won at a huge cost to some communities
The idea that poor voters were the backbone supporters of Trump has been shattered. The post racial society we hoped had been ushered after obama was voted twice is all but a mirage. Race in America is thicker than blood. Obama election was possible because the economic future of USA was at stake and he seemed as a safe candidate for everyone. The two elections for obama was Americans voting with their wallets not heart and mind.
I wont rehearse how obama got reelected but without Irag and Afghan wars and economic meltdown Obama would fallen to McCain or Hillary. The White women were first to embrace him and men followed.
If you are looking at radical websites and propaganda sites to find out Trump supporters talking you can continue looking. These voters know what they are doing is not acceptable so they have embraced silence as their weapon.
70% of Kikuyus can elect a Luo candidate if they are faced by a challenge that threatens their security. Watch Ruto get over 70% in 2022. Kikuyus will be voting to keep peace rest the Mandagos of this world carry out their threats.
Moi became Kikuyu choice in 1978 and 1983 after coup because of the same reasons. The Kikuyu masses wanted security and Moi provided that.
The people who should be fighting Mexicans are AAs. They are the ones more likely to be displaced from a job by Mexicans.
The white population is feeling threatned to the browning of America and this is testing the willingness of this group to embrace the future.
Biden was the security for this group and their dominance still matters
Pence is now their security in Trump that they matter.
Remember Moi always kept several Kikuyus as VPs and a few dockets were put aside for Kikuyus eg Finance. Moi knew that Tribe matters. Trump knows race matters.
Ben Carson must have been told by his PR team to stay away if he wants to remain relevant in future and continue selling “snake oil” in terms of books
Can't add anything. Racism has always been the Republican strategy. And race is what has kept them relevant, making people vote against their interests election cycle after election cycle. I highly suspect the US would happily take on a Scandinavian type welfare system if there were no black people or very few of them. Republicans have managed to convince fools living in trailer parks that it's in their interests to vote against such things because they mostly benefit blacks(a lie).
The only silver lining - Trump made no secret of it - so people won't have to be banging their heads trying to convince those amenable to reason that it is a problem.
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Thank you Windy City you have actually summarized what I am trying to say and given it context
It's important to note that he won the swing states Obama won. That is not the same thing as the vote that Obama won. Put another way, he did not win because Obama voters turned to him, even if some may have voted for him. Most of his support came from a group that will never vote for a black man in a million years.
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I don't think Trump is racist but an opportunist. He kept telling voters what they yearned to hear. He is even married to a foreign woman.
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I don't think Trump is racist but an opportunist. He kept telling voters what they yearned to hear. He is even married to a foreign woman.
There are politicians who do that for political opportunity. I would buy the narrative that he is one of those if his history somehow suddenly vanished. There are many instances including his father's membership of KKK. But the Central Park Five story (http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/donald-trump-and-the-central-park-five) is what convinced me beyond any doubt that his racism runs deeper than just opportunism.
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With ethics, you either have it or lack it. He is a racist, otherwise he couldn't have ran using the strategy.
I don't think Trump is racist but an opportunist. He kept telling voters what they yearned to hear. He is even married to a foreign woman.
There are politicians who do that for political opportunity. I would buy the narrative that he is one of those if his history somehow suddenly vanished. There are many instances including his father's membership of KKK. But the Central Park Five story (http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/donald-trump-and-the-central-park-five) is what convinced me beyond any doubt that his racism runs deeper than just opportunism.
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Saying that a person uses racially charged language but the person is not a racist is an oxymoron. Trump is married to a white woman. American white nationalist identify themselves as "European Americans"-that includes Trumps wife.
I don't think Trump is racist but an opportunist. He kept telling voters what they yearned to hear. He is even married to a foreign woman.
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I’ve re-read your claim above. Yours is an interesting and a simple way to explain Trump win. It is an optmistic way to look at this. It is a deflective way to explain trump Phenomenal. I know we liberals are first to claim Racism first to deflect from our own shortcomings. However, we have to ask ourselves why would a sane voter, an educated voter, a smart voter, reject a candidate that party has delivered for this voter.
• The Trump poor voters are biggest beneficiary of Obamacare
• They are the biggest benefeciary of New Jobs training programs and community colleges grants
• They are the biggest beneficiary of Obama extending social safety nets during recession
• Their educated counterparts are biggest beneficiary of New jobs and increased company profits
• The educated ones are the biggest beneficiary of Obama government spending in infrastructure
Then why would the same group wear Hilter Masks and moustaches rallying to take back their country. Who are they taking the country back from? because in their neighborhood very few brown people live there. I will post a map of PA voting pattern to illustrate. Taking back is a code word for the power is in the wrong race.
Global, thanks for engaging!
What you highlight there actually goes to the point I was trying to make about an invisible wall, an inability to actually pay attention and listen to the grievances of the other side and not just dismiss them outright. On your side, everything under Obama was just peachy! Nothing to complain about! Therefore, these people, roughly half the population, must just be haters.
I was not talking about reading "radical websites" when I referred to alternative media. Some of the alternative media, in fact, almost all the ones I personally pay attention to, are run by liberals. One of them is headed by a happily married gay lifetime democrat! Check out Dave Rubin of "the Rubin Report" channel on Youtube, for example. They have worked for the mainstream and been disgusted over the years about the blatant spinning as opposed to simple old-fashioned news! They detected the rise of the alt-right long ago, as an over-reaction to extreme leftist regressive nonsense that shuts down any and all dissent. The conservative ones are also good: they also are very much anti the alt-right, but do not swallow the propaganda the mainstream spews.
The complaints I see a LOT from those people who had resolved to vote for Trump despite all of his huge faults can be grouped in the following head-points:
1. Money matters: Obamacare, industrial jobs
-There are a lot of folks for whom Obamacare sucked. Their premiums went up 40% and when they couldn't pay them they were fined. Obamacare is a good thing overall, but hasn't been easy for EVERYBODY. Ignoring those who have found themselves on its sour end doesn't help. Hilary promised them nothing. She didn't even speak to their concerns at all.
-Lots of those guys in the rustbelt lost their jobs overseas. Trump gave them easy answers. But Hilary again simply assumed they did not exist.
2. Immigration and Terrorism
-Obama and his government refuse to acknowledge the "Islam" in Islamic terrorism, at a time when the West has seen unprecedented terrorist attacks. They have also encouraged a culture that curtails all discussions about it with PC bullying screaming "Islamophobe" at anyone who wants to discuss it, including clear liberals like Sam Harris and Bill Maher who were victims of this bullying.
To many of these folks, the government seems like it is willfully ignorant. Of course I know there is a big difference between mainstream Islam and the Wahabi nonsense. But acting like terrorism is completely disconnected from the religious teachings is silly. So a lot of these folks are afraid that Europe is being overrun by terrorists from the middle-East who are hiding among the refugees! Obama made it seem like he was planning to bring in a whole bunch of them to the U.S. right around the time Europe was getting attacked!
Before you scream "Islamophobe", just look at Kenya. We have always happily welcomed Somali refugees...but what happened when we started getting attacked by Alshabab? Of course the welcoming attitude changed quickly. Is it because Kenyans are haters? Is it because they believe all Somalis are Alshabab? That's nonsense. Kenyans are just fearful. So are Americans.
When all this PC crap is going on, Trump shows up and voices what many average Americans are thinking: Stop letting these folks in until we have a way of vetting them and separating the refugees from the terrorists!
Rather than responding with open dialogue about how this is unworkable etc etc, they start screaming "Racist! Islamophobe!" So those people thinking these thoughts are left with the impression that Trump is the only who gets that there is an urgent problem! Not the Dem government, not the Republican party big-wigs...just Trump! And then you're shocked they end up quietly voting for him???
-Immigration from Mexico is also a big concern though from my reading nowhere near as much as immigration from the mid-East. This is simple xenophobia, in my opinion, like in S.A. The left's identity politics is responsible for this fear of the "browning of America" you refer tom in my view. They act like it is a sin to be white and male and like if you fall in this demographic, you just don't matter: Shut up and check your priviledge! Most of the people I've read are all for STOPPING immigration, not for the deportations if the people already in U.S. are not criminals. In my view, the PC crap I refer to below, is responsible for there being no NUANCED discussion where people fall in the middle.
3. Wars and the Hawkish establishment
American global adventures have created the disasters that have Syrians desperately trying to escape the mid-East. Everyone understands that now.
Trump comes along and tells them that he is also sick of them wars. He wants to concentrate on building America. During that time, Clinton who is known to be responsible for the destruction of Libya ("Hillary's war") seems to be escalating tensions with Russia, a nuclear power, by floating scary things like declaring no-fly zone over Syria. So now you have many people who believe she is leading their country into a direct confrontation with Putin, which no one knows how it'll go...nukes may start flying at some point!
4. Culture wars, Runaway PC culture and Supreme Court Appointments
Obama has been ramming certain policies down the throats of conservative bases with executive actions: Forcing Christians to buy arbotifacents for their employees, and recently attempting to force everyone to allow transexuals who have not undergone surgery to use female bathrooms. At the same time, you have stories about some poor christian woman getting sued somewhere for refusing to bake a cake, photograph, or otherwise serve in some way at a gay wedding which she believes is wrong.
At the same time PC culture has gotten extreme in the last 8 years to the point that comedians and speakers are getting banned from speaking at UNIVERSITIES! The universities have caved to this nonsense with "safe spaces" and what-not. Only the University of Chicago was brave enough to announce to its applicants that all viewpoints are allowed at universities, will be debated and no one has a right to be protected from views they disagree with because that kind of exposure to alternative ideas is exactly what universities are for! Imagine a university having to defend such a policy which should be a given at a university of all places. A very liberal university at that...what kind of culture is that? People are getting hounded out of their jobs for saying one wrong thing.
You may think that these issues are trivial, but that's YOUR worldview. To these people, the fines and lawsuits especially, plus the executive actions, were signs of a government that was getting ready to persecute them for being traditional and holding on to their beliefs. Their only hope? The Supreme Court! Who controls it? That's right...the person who makes the appointments.
So they have to decide who they want picking the judges with the power to allow them to be bullyied by the government in this way or not. Who do you think they'll pick?
I read a LOT of people who absolutely hate Trump and were FURIOUS at the Republican party for allowing him to get that far, but they were going to vote for him anyway FOR NO OTHER REASON than the Supreme Court appointments. It was that important to them.
ETC ETC ETC
You don't have to agree/accept these views, but the point is that these views are important to the people who lined up to vote for Trump! Trump understood that and tailored his message to speak to their deepest concerns.
The left ignores all that with the "they have nothing to complain about, it must just be hate" line to their own detriment. Many liberals have seen this and woken up, thankfully, so they are starting to create avenues for genuine discussion which brings these groups together and address the issues openly so maybe there's hope.
But like I said, the dismissive "it's all just racism" is silly and arrogant. It keeps you from talking to people in a way that will get them to vote for you! You end up calling them "a basket of deplorables".... Shooting yourself in the foot. And then shocked they told you to shove off! SMH!!!
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Global, thanks for engaging!
What you highlight there actually goes to the point I was trying to make about an invisible wall, an inability to actually pay attention and listen to the grievances of the other side and not just dismiss them outright. On your side, everything under Obama was just peachy! Nothing to complain about! Therefore, these people, roughly half the population, must just be haters.
I was not talking about reading "radical websites" when I referred to alternative media. Some of the alternative media, in fact, almost all the ones I personally pay attention to, are run by liberals. One of them is headed by a happily married gay lifetime democrat! Check out Dave Rubin of "the Rubin Report" channel on Youtube, for example. They have worked for the mainstream and been disgusted over the years about the blatant spinning as opposed to simple old-fashioned news! They detected the rise of the alt-right long ago, as an over-reaction to extreme leftist regressive nonsense that shuts down any and all dissent. The conservative ones are also good: they also are very much anti the alt-right, but do not swallow the propaganda the mainstream spews.
The complaints I see a LOT from those people who had resolved to vote for Trump despite all of his huge faults can be grouped in the following head-points:
1. Money matters: Obamacare, industrial jobs
-There are a lot of folks for whom Obamacare sucked. Their premiums went up 40% and when they couldn't pay them they were fined. Obamacare is a good thing overall, but hasn't been easy for EVERYBODY. Ignoring those who have found themselves on its sour end doesn't help. Hilary promised them nothing. She didn't even speak to their concerns at all.
-Lots of those guys in the rustbelt lost their jobs overseas. Trump gave them easy answers. But Hilary again simply assumed they did not exist.
2. Immigration and Terrorism
-Obama and his government refuse to acknowledge the "Islam" in Islamic terrorism, at a time when the West has seen unprecedented terrorist attacks. They have also encouraged a culture that curtails all discussions about it with PC bullying screaming "Islamophobe" at anyone who wants to discuss it, including clear liberals like Sam Harris and Bill Maher who were victims of this bullying.
To many of these folks, the government seems like it is willfully ignorant. Of course I know there is a big difference between mainstream Islam and the Wahabi nonsense. But acting like terrorism is completely disconnected from the religious teachings is silly. So a lot of these folks are afraid that Europe is being overrun by terrorists from the middle-East who are hiding among the refugees! Obama made it seem like he was planning to bring in a whole bunch of them to the U.S. right around the time Europe was getting attacked!
Before you scream "Islamophobe", just look at Kenya. We have always happily welcomed Somali refugees...but what happened when we started getting attacked by Alshabab? Of course the welcoming attitude changed quickly. Is it because Kenyans are haters? Is it because they believe all Somalis are Alshabab? That's nonsense. Kenyans are just fearful. So are Americans.
When all this PC crap is going on, Trump shows up and voices what many average Americans are thinking: Stop letting these folks in until we have a way of vetting them and separating the refugees from the terrorists!
Rather than responding with open dialogue about how this is unworkable etc etc, they start screaming "Racist! Islamophobe!" So those people thinking these thoughts are left with the impression that Trump is the only who gets that there is an urgent problem! Not the Dem government, not the Republican party big-wigs...just Trump! And then you're shocked they end up quietly voting for him???
-Immigration from Mexico is also a big concern though from my reading nowhere near as much as immigration from the mid-East. This is simple xenophobia, in my opinion, like in S.A. The left's identity politics is responsible for this fear of the "browning of America" you refer tom in my view. They act like it is a sin to be white and male and like if you fall in this demographic, you just don't matter: Shut up and check your priviledge! Most of the people I've read are all for STOPPING immigration, not for the deportations if the people already in U.S. are not criminals. In my view, the PC crap I refer to below, is responsible for there being no NUANCED discussion where people fall in the middle.
3. Wars and the Hawkish establishment
American global adventures have created the disasters that have Syrians desperately trying to escape the mid-East. Everyone understands that now.
Trump comes along and tells them that he is also sick of them wars. He wants to concentrate on building America. During that time, Clinton who is known to be responsible for the destruction of Libya ("Hillary's war") seems to be escalating tensions with Russia, a nuclear power, by floating scary things like declaring no-fly zone over Syria. So now you have many people who believe she is leading their country into a direct confrontation with Putin, which no one knows how it'll go...nukes may start flying at some point!
4. Culture wars, Runaway PC culture and Supreme Court Appointments
Obama has been ramming certain policies down the throats of conservative bases with executive actions: Forcing Christians to buy arbotifacents for their employees, and recently attempting to force everyone to allow transexuals who have not undergone surgery to use female bathrooms. At the same time, you have stories about some poor christian woman getting sued somewhere for refusing to bake a cake, photograph, or otherwise serve in some way at a gay wedding which she believes is wrong.
At the same time PC culture has gotten extreme in the last 8 years to the point that comedians and speakers are getting banned from speaking at UNIVERSITIES! The universities have caved to this nonsense with "safe spaces" and what-not. Only the University of Chicago was brave enough to announce to its applicants that all viewpoints are allowed at universities, will be debated and no one has a right to be protected from views they disagree with because that kind of exposure to alternative ideas is exactly what universities are for! Imagine a university having to defend such a policy which should be a given at a university of all places. A very liberal university at that...what kind of culture is that? People are getting hounded out of their jobs for saying one wrong thing.
You may think that these issues are trivial, but that's YOUR worldview. To these people, the fines and lawsuits especially, plus the executive actions, were signs of a government that was getting ready to persecute them for being traditional and holding on to their beliefs. Their only hope? The Supreme Court! Who controls it? That's right...the person who makes the appointments.
So they have to decide who they want picking the judges with the power to allow them to be bullyied by the government in this way or not. Who do you think they'll pick?
I read a LOT of people who absolutely hate Trump and were FURIOUS at the Republican party for allowing him to get that far, but they were going to vote for him anyway FOR NO OTHER REASON than the Supreme Court appointments. It was that important to them.
ETC ETC ETC
You don't have to agree/accept these views, but the point is that these views are important to the people who lined up to vote for Trump! Trump understood that and tailored his message to speak to their deepest concerns.
The left ignores all that with the "they have nothing to complain about, it must just be hate" line to their own detriment. Many liberals have seen this and woken up, thankfully, so they are starting to create avenues for genuine discussion which brings these groups together and address the issues openly so maybe there's hope.
But like I said, the dismissive "it's all just racism" is silly and arrogant. It keeps you from talking to people in a way that will get them to vote for you! You end up calling them "a basket of deplorables".... Shooting yourself in the foot. And then shocked they told you to shove off! SMH!!!
I agree 100%, extreme PC and reverse racism against white men is what disgusts me the most about the Left. Many Trumps are rising in Western Europe for the same reason.
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But we had the same scenario in Kenya. In 2002 Luos voted for Kibaki to a man and Orengo received not more than 5% of luo vote. In 2007 luos voted against Kibaki to a man. What changed was not tribe but issues. Kale's voted for Raila to a men in 2007 and against him in 2013. I think tribalism or racism or regionalism or religion will always be factors but you need an issue to sway it one way or the other. You cannot rely on tribalism or racism to be the only factor in every single election. The 206 US election was perfect for racism but the issue was CHANGE from the Obama years. Trump cannot run the same campaign in 2020 and expect the same results. 2020 will be about his achievements and blatent racism like he did this year will not work.
In Kenya ICC case against Ouru and Ruto united kikuyus and Kalenjins. In 2017 the bond between the Kalenjins and the Kikuyus will not be as strong as in 2013 because the ICC issue is no longer there. They will have to create another issue to strengthen their bond or ouru will loose a lot of Kale's. I do not know if he will lose enough kale's to lose the elections but one thing I know, in 2022, Ruto needs a brand new issue to keep Kale's and kikuyus together and I do not know where he will find that issue. On the CORD side, they too need an issue to get the other tribes bonded. I do not know if "corruption" will do it for them but they have to give it a shot. In conclusion, tribalism and racism alone cannot do it-you need a STRONG ISSUE whether in Kenya or in the United States to combine with tribalism or racism to win. This only works if the elections are free and fair. If elections are not free and fair as in Kenya then it does not matter.
I agree with some of what you say, but you come down to saying there must be an issue that the voters care about enough to vote for the "outsider". Me? I just don't see what issue gets Kikuyus to vote against a strong Kikuyu contender. The equivalent of Ouru or Raila (for Luos). What gets Kikuyus to vote against an Ouru for a Luo or for Luos to vote against a Raila for a Kyuk guy? Orengo is small fish. Like Peter Kenneth. When Luos votes for Kibaki, they were voing for Raila. When Kalenjins voted for Ouru in 2002, they were voting for Baba Moi. When Kalenjin voted for Raila in 2002 they were voting for Samoei and AGAINST Kibaki's treatment of Kalenjins in 2003; When they voted for Ouru in 2013, they were voting for Samoei and AGAINST what they saw as Raila's betrayal.
But Obama wasn't facing small fish. He was facing first Hillary who had been the favourite...How did she loose to him, when she was White, he was Black and a neophyte without much experience at that? Then he was facing the Republican Nominee. Granted, the economic crash did not work in McCain's favor, but Obama had another go at Romney, a VERY good White Candidate, and still beat him handily. Those very states that gave Obama the Presidency are the ones that have now given Trump the presidency. The swing states. It can't be that when they vote for Dems, they are good people and when they vote for Trump, the same ones are now deplorable racists! If racism was as important as the Left makes it, Obama would never have smelt anything close to winning at the Primaries against a strong Democrat and then twice nationally against the entire Republican machinery.
Also, when we act like we know people's motivations better than themselves, that is what I am rejecting. These people are screaming and complaining about what is bothering them. People on the left just ignore that and substitute it with telepathically derived know-how about the 'REAL MOTIVES' lurking in the dark. I see that kind of us-them demonization at home. But for us it is ethnic. For them it is liberal-Conservative or Dem-Republican. So Dems are good and kind and intelligent and enlightened, while Republicans are evil and racist. This is surely ridiculous. To me, it looks like the first step towards something really bad down the line, like a civil war. It is when people start treating other people like a caricature. It is how you divide a country beyond repair.
Both sides are guilty but because the Left has had an upper hand in the last 8 years, it has been most visible coming from them than from the Right.
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Robina,
If it was on conversation the other side was listened to . We know everything was not peachy during the last 8 years sacrifices were made. However, everyone agreed that puting economy wheels back on track was the priority. that is why American economy is the strongest right now in the west.
The only thing actually Obama failed to give in to GOP demands was on Obamacare. He worked so hard to have comprehensive immigration reform and actually agreed with GOP that all immigrants with criminal records had to be deported. Obama has deported more immigrants than any other president in history. I know about 20 Kenya families that relocated to Australia, Canada and hundreds who fled to Kenya during economic meltdown. there are hundreds of Kenyans still fighting immigration in court to avoid deportation. The cost Kenyans have paid is higher. So the left has bent backwards, listened but every time they did what GOP shifted goal posts. Now we have a president let give him 4 years to see how he does
Kadame5,
some things are so nuanced in society that you have to live in the society to understand them. You may have a better feel of internal nuances of SA than most of us in North America. Same thing I would expect RV pundit to have a better feel of local RV political dynamics than most of us. So it is what it is.
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Those very states that gave Obama the Presidency are the ones that have now given Trump the presidency. The swing states. It can't be that when they vote for Dems, they are good people and when they vote for Trump, the same ones are now deplorable racists! If racism was as important as the Left makes it, Obama would never have smelt anything close to winning at the Primaries against a strong Democrat and then twice nationally against the entire Republican machinery.
This bears correcting. The idea that if a state vote swings one way, the same voters have switched. It's obvious Hillary got most of the Obama votes, even in the states she lost - that should not be up for debate. There is a different explanation for that than a new awakening among a demographic whose tendencies are well known.
I incorrectly said Trump got fewer votes than Romney in 2012. He got slightly more - about half a million more. Some of that has to be increased turnout(his racist base was more energized). The profile of a typical Trump supporter remains the same as that of a Republican voter for the last 4 decades or so. He may be more energized in 2016 because of a candidate that says what he is thinking, even if the little sliver of conscience he has prevents him from mouthing it.
Even though swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania registered higher numbers than the previous election, fewer people voted overall for the main party candidates in 2016 than 2012. A lot more votes than in 2012 went to third parties underlining the historic unlikability of both main party candidates. Trump did not win because some people woke up to new politics and voted for him, even though it seems to be an attractive narrative. The data does not support it. It's the same monkeys, same story, different candidates.
Also, when we act like we know people's motivations better than themselves, that is what I am rejecting. These people are screaming and complaining about what is bothering them. People on the left just ignore that and substitute it with telepathically derived know-how about the 'REAL MOTIVES' lurking in the dark. I see that kind of us-them demonization at home. But for us it is ethnic. For them it is liberal-Conservative or Dem-Republican. So Dems are good and kind and intelligent and enlightened, while Republicans are evil and racist. This is surely ridiculous. To me, it looks like the first step towards something really bad down the line, like a civil war. It is when people start treating other people like a caricature. It is how you divide a country beyond repair.
Both sides are guilty but because the Left has had an upper hand in the last 8 years, it has been most visible coming from them than from the Right.
Current typical(by no means applicable to all) Republican behavior has been well documented for over 40 years now. What is bothering them has also been well documented. Most of it runs on a vein of intolerance for differences stretching to back to when the typical Republican was a Democrat(when Democrats were the racist party).
They are the same guys that have consistently supported the party that favored policies that so disenfranchised them to result in their current "revolt". The Republican voter is just a walking contradiction if you ignore the racism angle. When(not if) Trump screws up the economy, you can trust them to blame someone else.