What a year What a year what a period to be alive in the West

[Nefertiti]

Global, thanks for engaging!

What you highlight there actually goes to the point I was trying to make about an invisible wall, an inability to actually pay attention and listen to the grievances of the other side and not just dismiss them outright. On your side, everything under Obama was just peachy! Nothing to complain about! Therefore, these people, roughly half the population, must just be haters.

I was not talking about reading "radical websites" when I referred to alternative media. Some of the alternative media, in fact, almost all the ones I personally pay attention to, are run by liberals. One of them is headed by a happily married gay lifetime democrat! Check out Dave Rubin of "the Rubin Report" channel on Youtube, for example. They have worked for the mainstream and been disgusted over the years about the blatant spinning as opposed to simple old-fashioned news! They detected the rise of the alt-right long ago, as an over-reaction to extreme leftist regressive nonsense that shuts down any and all dissent. The conservative ones are also good: they also are very much anti the alt-right, but do not swallow the propaganda the mainstream spews.

The complaints I see a LOT from those people who had resolved to vote for Trump despite all of his huge faults can be grouped in the following head-points:


1. Money matters: Obamacare, industrial jobs

-There are a lot of folks for whom Obamacare sucked. Their premiums went up 40% and when they couldn't pay them they were fined. Obamacare is a good thing overall, but hasn't been easy for EVERYBODY. Ignoring those who have found themselves on its sour end doesn't help. Hilary promised them nothing. She didn't even speak to their concerns at all.

-Lots of those guys in the rustbelt lost their jobs overseas. Trump gave them easy answers. But Hilary again simply assumed they did not exist.


2. Immigration and Terrorism

-Obama and his government refuse to acknowledge the "Islam" in Islamic terrorism, at a time when the West has seen unprecedented terrorist attacks. They have also encouraged a culture that curtails all discussions about it with PC bullying screaming "Islamophobe" at anyone who wants to discuss it, including clear liberals like Sam Harris and Bill Maher who were victims of this bullying.

To many of these folks, the government seems like it is willfully ignorant. Of course I know there is a big difference between mainstream Islam and the Wahabi nonsense. But acting like terrorism is completely disconnected from the religious teachings is silly. So a lot of these folks are afraid that Europe is being overrun by terrorists from the middle-East who are hiding among the refugees! Obama made it seem like he was planning to bring in a whole bunch of them to the U.S. right around the time Europe was getting attacked!

Before you scream "Islamophobe", just look at Kenya. We have always happily welcomed Somali refugees...but what happened when we started getting attacked by Alshabab? Of course the welcoming attitude changed quickly. Is it because Kenyans are haters? Is it because they believe all Somalis are Alshabab? That's nonsense. Kenyans are just fearful. So are Americans.

When all this PC crap is going on, Trump shows up and voices what many average Americans are thinking: Stop letting these folks in until we have a way of vetting them and separating the refugees from the terrorists!

Rather than responding with open dialogue about how this is unworkable etc etc, they start screaming "Racist! Islamophobe!" So those people thinking these thoughts are left with the impression that Trump is the only who gets that there is an urgent problem! Not the Dem government, not the Republican party big-wigs...just Trump! And then you're shocked they end up quietly voting for him???

-Immigration from Mexico is also a big concern though from my reading nowhere near as much as immigration from the mid-East. This is simple xenophobia, in my opinion, like in S.A. The left's identity politics is responsible for this fear of the "browning of America" you refer tom in my view. They act like it is a sin to be white and male and like if you fall in this demographic, you just don't matter: Shut up and check your priviledge! Most of the people I've read are all for STOPPING immigration, not for the deportations if the people already in U.S. are not criminals. In my view, the PC crap I refer to below, is responsible for there being no NUANCED discussion where people fall in the middle.

3. Wars and the Hawkish establishment

American global adventures have created the disasters that have Syrians desperately trying to escape the mid-East. Everyone understands that now.

Trump comes along and tells them that he is also sick of them wars. He wants to concentrate on building America. During that time, Clinton who is known to be responsible for the destruction of Libya ("Hillary's war") seems to be escalating tensions with Russia, a nuclear power, by floating scary things like declaring no-fly zone over Syria. So now you have many people who believe she is leading their country into a direct confrontation with Putin, which no one knows how it'll go...nukes may start flying at some point!

4. Culture wars, Runaway PC culture and Supreme Court Appointments

Obama has been ramming certain policies down the throats of conservative bases with executive actions: Forcing Christians to buy arbotifacents for their employees, and recently attempting to force everyone to allow transexuals who have not undergone surgery to use female bathrooms. At the same time, you have stories about some poor christian woman getting sued somewhere for refusing to bake a cake, photograph, or otherwise serve in some way at a gay wedding which she believes is wrong.

At the same time PC culture has gotten extreme in the last 8 years to the point that comedians and speakers are getting banned from speaking at UNIVERSITIES! The universities have caved to this nonsense with "safe spaces" and what-not. Only the University of Chicago was brave enough to announce to its applicants that all viewpoints are allowed at universities, will be debated and no one has a right to be protected from views they disagree with because that kind of exposure to alternative ideas is exactly what universities are for! Imagine a university having to defend such a policy which should be a given at a university of all places. A very liberal university at that...what kind of culture is that? People are getting hounded out of their jobs for saying one wrong thing.

You may think that these issues are trivial, but that's YOUR worldview. To these people, the fines and lawsuits especially, plus the executive actions, were signs of a government that was getting ready to persecute them for being traditional and holding on to their beliefs. Their only hope? The Supreme Court! Who controls it? That's right...the person who makes the appointments.

So they have to decide who they want picking the judges with the power to allow them to be bullyied by the government in this way or not. Who do you think they'll pick?

I read a LOT of people who absolutely hate Trump and were FURIOUS at the Republican party for allowing him to get that far, but they were going to vote for him anyway FOR NO OTHER REASON than the Supreme Court appointments. It was that important to them.

ETC ETC ETC

You don't have to agree/accept these views, but the point is that these views are important to the people who lined up to vote for Trump! Trump understood that and tailored his message to speak to their deepest concerns.

The left ignores all that with the "they have nothing to complain about, it must just be hate" line to their own detriment. Many liberals have seen this and woken up, thankfully, so they are starting to create avenues for genuine discussion which brings these groups together and address the issues openly so maybe there's hope.

But like I said, the dismissive "it's all just racism" is silly and arrogant. It keeps you from talking to people in a way that will get them to vote for you! You end up calling them "a basket of deplorables".... Shooting yourself in the foot. And then shocked they told you to shove off! SMH!!!

I agree 100%, extreme PC and reverse racism against white men is what disgusts me the most about the Left. Many Trumps are rising in Western Europe for the same reason.

[Kadame5]

But we had the same scenario in Kenya. In 2002 Luos voted for Kibaki to a man and Orengo received not more than 5% of luo vote. In 2007 luos voted against Kibaki to a man.  What changed was not tribe but issues.  Kale's voted for Raila to a men in 2007 and against him in 2013. I think tribalism or racism or regionalism or religion will always be factors but you need  an issue to sway it one way or the other.  You cannot rely on tribalism or racism to be the only factor in every single election. The 206 US  election was perfect for racism but the issue was CHANGE from the Obama years.  Trump cannot run the same campaign in 2020  and expect the same results. 2020 will be about his achievements and blatent racism like he did this year will not work.

In Kenya ICC case against Ouru and Ruto united kikuyus and Kalenjins.  In 2017 the bond between the Kalenjins and the Kikuyus will not be as strong as in 2013 because the ICC issue is no longer there.  They will have to create another issue to strengthen their bond or ouru will loose a lot of Kale's.  I do not know if he will lose enough kale's to lose the elections but one thing I know, in 2022, Ruto needs a brand new issue to keep Kale's and kikuyus together and I do not know where he will find that issue. On the CORD side, they too need an issue to get the other tribes bonded.  I do not know if "corruption" will do it for them but they have to give it a shot.  In conclusion, tribalism and racism alone cannot do it-you need a STRONG ISSUE  whether in Kenya or in the United States to combine with tribalism or racism to win.  This only works if the elections are free and fair.  If elections are not free and fair as in Kenya then it does not matter.

I agree with some of what you say, but you come down to saying there must be an issue that the voters care about enough to vote for the "outsider". Me? I just don't see what issue gets Kikuyus to vote  against a strong Kikuyu contender. The equivalent of Ouru or Raila (for Luos). What gets Kikuyus to vote against an Ouru for a Luo or for Luos to vote against a Raila for a Kyuk guy? Orengo is small fish. Like Peter Kenneth. When Luos votes for Kibaki, they were voing for Raila. When Kalenjins voted for Ouru in 2002, they were voting for Baba Moi. When Kalenjin voted for Raila in 2002 they were voting for Samoei and AGAINST Kibaki's treatment of Kalenjins in 2003; When they voted for Ouru in 2013, they were voting for Samoei and AGAINST what they saw as Raila's betrayal.

But Obama wasn't facing small fish. He was facing first Hillary who had been the favourite...How did she loose to him, when she was White, he was Black and a neophyte without much experience at that? Then he was facing the Republican Nominee. Granted, the economic crash did not work in McCain's favor, but Obama had another go at Romney, a VERY good White Candidate, and still beat him handily. Those very states that gave Obama the Presidency are the ones that have now given Trump the presidency. The swing states. It can't be that when they vote for Dems, they are good people and when they vote for Trump, the same ones are now deplorable racists! If racism was as important as the Left makes it, Obama would never have smelt anything close to winning at the Primaries against a strong Democrat and then twice nationally against the entire Republican machinery.

Also, when we act like we know people's motivations better than themselves, that is what I am rejecting. These people are screaming and complaining about what is bothering them. People on the left just ignore that and substitute it with telepathically derived know-how about the 'REAL MOTIVES' lurking in the dark. I see that kind of us-them demonization at home. But for us it is ethnic. For them it is liberal-Conservative or Dem-Republican. So Dems are good and kind and intelligent and enlightened, while Republicans are evil and racist. This is surely ridiculous. To me, it looks like the first step towards something really bad down the line, like a civil war. It is when people start treating other people like a caricature. It is how you divide a country beyond repair.

Both sides are guilty but because the Left has had an upper hand in the last 8 years, it has been most visible coming from them than from the Right.

[Globalcitizen12]

Robina,
If it was on conversation the other side was listened to . We know everything was not peachy during the last 8 years sacrifices were made. However, everyone agreed that puting economy wheels back on track was the priority. that is why American economy is the strongest right now in the west.

 The only thing actually Obama failed to give in to GOP demands was on Obamacare. He worked so hard to have comprehensive immigration reform and actually agreed with GOP that all immigrants with criminal records had to be deported. Obama has deported more immigrants than any other president in history. I know about 20 Kenya families that relocated to Australia, Canada and hundreds who fled to Kenya during economic meltdown. there are hundreds of Kenyans still fighting immigration in court to avoid deportation. The cost Kenyans have paid is higher. So the left has bent backwards, listened but every time they did what GOP  shifted goal posts. Now we have a president let give him 4 years to see how he does

Kadame5,
some things are so nuanced in society that you have to live in the society to understand them. You may have a better feel of internal nuances of SA than most of us in North America. Same thing I would expect RV pundit to have a better feel of local RV political dynamics than most of us. So it is what it is.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Those very states that gave Obama the Presidency are the ones that have now given Trump the presidency. The swing states. It can't be that when they vote for Dems, they are good people and when they vote for Trump, the same ones are now deplorable racists! If racism was as important as the Left makes it, Obama would never have smelt anything close to winning at the Primaries against a strong Democrat and then twice nationally against the entire Republican machinery.

This bears correcting.  The idea that if a state vote swings one way, the same voters have switched.  It's obvious Hillary got most of the Obama votes, even in the states she lost - that should not be up for debate.  There is a different explanation for that than a new awakening among a demographic whose tendencies are well known.

I incorrectly said Trump got fewer votes than Romney in 2012.  He got slightly more - about half a million more.  Some of that has to be increased turnout(his racist base was more energized).  The profile of a typical Trump supporter remains the same as that of a Republican voter for the last 4 decades or so.  He may be more energized in 2016 because of a candidate that says what he is thinking, even if the little sliver of conscience he has prevents him from mouthing it.

Even though swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania registered higher numbers than the previous election, fewer people voted overall for the main party candidates in 2016 than 2012.  A lot more votes than in 2012 went to third parties underlining the historic unlikability of both main party candidates.  Trump did not win because some people woke up to new politics and voted for him, even though it seems to be an attractive narrative.  The data does not support it.  It's the same monkeys, same story, different candidates.

Also, when we act like we know people's motivations better than themselves, that is what I am rejecting. These people are screaming and complaining about what is bothering them. People on the left just ignore that and substitute it with telepathically derived know-how about the 'REAL MOTIVES' lurking in the dark. I see that kind of us-them demonization at home. But for us it is ethnic. For them it is liberal-Conservative or Dem-Republican. So Dems are good and kind and intelligent and enlightened, while Republicans are evil and racist. This is surely ridiculous. To me, it looks like the first step towards something really bad down the line, like a civil war. It is when people start treating other people like a caricature. It is how you divide a country beyond repair.

Both sides are guilty but because the Left has had an upper hand in the last 8 years, it has been most visible coming from them than from the Right.

Current typical(by no means applicable to all) Republican behavior has been well documented for over 40 years now.  What is bothering them has also been well documented.  Most of it runs on a vein of intolerance for differences stretching to back to when the typical Republican was a Democrat(when Democrats were the racist party).

They are the same guys that have consistently supported the party that favored policies that so disenfranchised them to result in their current "revolt".  The Republican voter is just a walking contradiction if you ignore the racism angle.  When(not if) Trump screws up the economy, you can trust them to blame someone else.