Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Omollo on April 12, 2015, 04:07:17 PM
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My father once told me how Kenyatta herded people from Nyanza and Western to demonstrate against Amin who was claiming a large part of Kenya from Busia to Naivasha. Speeches were made daring Amin to try and he will be taught why a hen does not piss!
Those day I hear there was this monopoly of KCC and so there were these tetra packs everywhere. So some kid who had accompanied his father and had been bought some milk found himself with an empty tetra pack. He pumped it full of air and placing it on the ground lifted his foot and hit it. It burst out loudly. Everyone heard it because the PC was speaking and those days a PC was the closest thing you got to see of the Great Jomo Kenyatta.
The stampede that followed left a few dead and many injured. What is more a convoy of cars would start fleeing from Western and unleashing stampedes in Kericho, Eldoret, Nakuru etc
One student died Sunday morning following a stampede at the University of Nairobi's Kikuyu Campus.
The stampede was as a result of the explosion of a power transformer which caused a terror scare among the students who were in their hostels.
Several others were injured and rushed to Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH) and other city hospitals.
Confirming the death of the student, the university's Vice Chancellor Prof Peter Mbithi said 99 students were being treated at KNH.
He said 141 others were being treated at various city hospitals.
The body of the dead student was taken to Chiromo Mortuary.
The 4am incident caused confusion and panic as many students mistook the explosion for a terrorist attack.
This forced students to scamper for safety with many jumping from as high as the sixth floor of their hostels.
Many sustained serious injuries and were rushed to hospital.
Initial reports indicated that several of them were critically injured.
The stampede was caused by fears among students that the loud noise from the explosion of the transformer could have been an attack by Al-Shabaab terrorists.
This comes two weeks after 148 people died at the Garissa University College following an attack by the Somalia-based terrorist group.
Reacting to the news, Narc-Kenya leader Martha Karua wished the injured students quick recovery, saying their reaction was understandable due to prevailing circumstances.
"So sad but understandable in these unpredictable times. (I) Wish them quick recovery," Ms Karua tweeted
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I can see where they are coming from. I could see myself at the head of such a stampede back in the day. Running for dear life.
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This is both funny and dead serious.
The coincidence; place, time all too crazy
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This is both funny and dead serious.
The coincidence; place, time all too crazy
Indeed. I felt like laughing but then quickly reminded myself how serious this all is. I would certainly jump out the window if I thought Al-Shabaab was in the vicinity, no question.
Our poor university kids; First the food poisoning in Strathmore like 2 weeks ago with 150 affected; Then the horrid Garissa event; Now this with 100s of kids in hospital. They must feel very vulnerable.
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Commendable Job by those kids. Now we need Gov to go around teaching people how to respond to terror attacks. Terror drills. People need to be taught to at very least fight back if they are sure it's a terror attack. Either way you're dead if you do not respond quickly.
The first thing is to ran and ran and ran for dear life. Recce will arrive 8hrs later if you wait for rescue. The police car will be ferrying sand to build the senior cops his hse while the plane will be doing personal biashara.
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Commendable Job by those kids. Now we need Gov to go around teaching people how to respond to terror attacks. Terror drills. People need to be taught to at very least fight back if they are sure it's a terror attack. Either way you're dead if you do not respond quickly.
The first thing is to ran and ran and ran for dear life. Recce will arrive 8hrs later if you wait for rescue. The police car will be ferrying sand to build the senior cops his hse while the plane will be doing personal biashara.
This is the most sensible response I have read so far. I have struggled tremendously to come to terms with the Garrissa massacre and how that was allowed to happen. I have avoided the issue thinking it will just somehow go away, but its not. Even more disturbing was how terrorist, 4 terrorist to be exact could go around shooting kids/young adults for hours on end without any attempt made to fight back. It’s common knowledge that they do not spare anyone in their path, so why not make it harder for them.
What happened to the most basic human response to fight or flight? 147 butchered without any big explosion or a grenade of some sorts going off. Had those kids fought, majority of them would have survived. I am wondering if maybe they need to bring back the nyayo day’s boot camp before being enrolled in campus to prepare and toughen these young kids. The government has proven to us time and time again that they cannot protect us, so it’s time that we start preparing everybody even primary school children to fight back for goodness sake. Enough is enough, we cannot sit back and continue to allow this to happen, common mwannachi need to arm themselves and if need be respond to these savages in equal measure. Maybe then they will think long and hard before they plan another attack. They are getting away to easy.
One thing I noticed during Westgate was that someone’s brother responded with his weapon to Westgate to save his brother way before Reece squad arrived and even helped save some lives. His brother had called him from the mall about an hour or so prior and he ran from his location to Westgate, because traffic was blocked. He was there to try rescuing his brother. We have to start taking care of each other…. And @pastor vooke, I am not sure about turning the other cheek any more….this is tooo painful, I am a mother, I didn't lose anyone, but its hitting too close to home. I don't think I have a country to go to anymore, but for those I left behind, I will pray for you.
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Terrorists use something they know true Christians cannot employ - deceit and violence. In the past, 'Christians' have employed violence to persecute true believers (see my signature). The greatest proof of the divine hand in true Christianity is in the manner in which true Christians have restrained themselves from employing violence and deceit to counter the religious terrorists. Just like Christ could not use deceit and Bible misinterpretation to counter Satan, today's true Christians must guard against using violence to counter religious terrorism. If violence were to be employed, minority Christian groups like JWs, Sabbatarians and anti-trinitarians would be subjected to what the Roman church did to martyrs in the dark ages. And there lies the danger of church uniting with state. At first it will be in the guise of fighting terrorism and soon after Christians will fight other Christians over the things they cannot agree on.
Matthew 4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
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Commendable Job by those kids. Now we need Gov to go around teaching people how to respond to terror attacks. Terror drills. People need to be taught to at very least fight back if they are sure it's a terror attack. Either way you're dead if you do not respond quickly.
The first thing is to ran and ran and ran for dear life. Recce will arrive 8hrs later if you wait for rescue. The police car will be ferrying sand to build the senior cops his hse while the plane will be doing personal biashara.
The erratic handling of Garissa is going to be par for the course. If they don't think there was a problem with the response they are not going to change what they consider appropriate. kamwana and groupies know only one mode of operation; digging in.
The response to Garissa has been:
1. Condemnation.
2. Chest thumping. Ratcheting up of jingoism. By people who will likely take off at the sound of a firecracker.
3. Ground breaking for the great wall of Somalia.
Just as with Westgate, it has not been and will not be:
1. A sober attempt to address the slow and disorganized responses.
2. A rethinking of Kenya's involvement in Somalia.
3. Dealing with corruption in the security sector.
The situation will be let to fade away from memory until another attack on any of countless exposed targets. There is no dispute about that.
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Very strange. In even smaller problems like fires in schools during our time, I remember we had to install firefighters and go through the drill. I think there is no response because the fatcats have not seen the money in this. Maybe if someone was to hawk a gadget for them...they would be interested. Our fat boss are just interested in making money. And the small man too.
The erratic handling of Garissa is going to be par for the course. If they don't think there was a problem with the response they are not going to change what they consider appropriate. kamwana and groupies know only one mode of operation; digging in.
The response to Garissa has been:
1. Condemnation.
2. Chest thumping. Ratcheting up of jingoism. By people who will likely take off at the sound of a firecracker.
3. Ground breaking for the great wall of Somalia.
Just as with Westgate, it has not been and will not be:
1. A sober attempt to address the slow and disorganized responses.
2. A rethinking of Kenya's involvement in Somalia.
3. Dealing with corruption in the security sector.
The situation will be let to fade away from memory until another attack on any of countless exposed targets. There is no dispute about that.
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National Sunday Law remains a retarded pipe dream.
One only needs to look at trillions burnt in Afghanistan and Iraq in imposing Western values of 'democracy' before hallucinating about a Catholicism and USA tag team that will enforce Sunday Worship in the entire 155 countries of the world, pissing off Hindus,Jews,atheists,humanists and behead Nuff Sed for sabbath keeping
Terrorists use something they know true Christians (SDAs right?) cannot employ - deceit and violence. In the past, 'Christians' have employed violence to persecute true believers (see my signature). The greatest proof of the divine hand in true Christianity is in the manner in which true Christians have restrained themselves from employing violence and deceit to counter the religious terrorists. Just like Christ could not use deceit and Bible misinterpretation to counter Satan, today's true Christians must guard against using violence to counter religious terrorism. If violence were to be employed, minority Christian groups like JWs, Sabbatarians and anti-trinitarians would be subjected to what the Roman church did to martyrs in the dark ages. And there lies the danger of church uniting with state. At first it will be in the guise of fighting terrorism and soon after Christians will fight other Christians over the things (Sabbath keeping :lolz:)they cannot agree on.
Matthew 4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
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Very strange. In even smaller problems like fires in schools during our time, I remember we had to install firefighters and go through the drill. I think there is no response because the fatcats have not seen the money in this. Maybe if someone was to hawk a gadget for them...they would be interested. Our fat boss are just interested in making money. And the small man too.
The erratic handling of Garissa is going to be par for the course. If they don't think there was a problem with the response they are not going to change what they consider appropriate. kamwana and groupies know only one mode of operation; digging in.
The response to Garissa has been:
1. Condemnation.
2. Chest thumping. Ratcheting up of jingoism. By people who will likely take off at the sound of a firecracker.
3. Ground breaking for the great wall of Somalia.
Just as with Westgate, it has not been and will not be:
1. A sober attempt to address the slow and disorganized responses.
2. A rethinking of Kenya's involvement in Somalia.
3. Dealing with corruption in the security sector.
The situation will be let to fade away from memory until another attack on any of countless exposed targets. There is no dispute about that.
Yep. Money, populism or both. The wall fits that criteria. There is no honest attempt to understand why this shit is happening.
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Termie,
Am working very hard this week(in my dreams) on raising my optimism on the Kenian Negro. Please don't wake me up yet
Yep. Money, populism or both. The wall fits that criteria. There is no honest attempt to understand why this shit is happening.
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The erratic handling of Garissa is going to be par for the course. If they don't think there was a problem with the response they are not going to change what they consider appropriate. kamwana and groupies know only one mode of operation; digging in.
The response to Garissa has been:
1. Condemnation.
2. Chest thumping. Ratcheting up of jingoism. By people who will likely take off at the sound of a firecracker.
3. Ground breaking for the great wall of Somalia.
Just as with Westgate, it has not been and will not be:
1. A sober attempt to address the slow and disorganized responses.
2. A rethinking of Kenya's involvement in Somalia.
3. Dealing with corruption in the security sector.
The situation will be let to fade away from memory until another attack on any of countless exposed targets. There is no dispute about that.
The "wall" keeps changing. Last I heard, it was going to be a fence. By the time the eating has been done, all that there will be to show will probably be a couple of miles of chicken-wire. Still, great noise is being made about it, and I understand that a few youth have even dug a short ditch to start it off. (They appear to have stopped working after a few metres.)
I also gather that John Kerry will soon be visiting Kenya to see how he can help; perhaps he feels morally obliged. How one goes about helping people who don't seem very keen to help themselves is far from clear. But history tells us that any results can only be short-term ones: lasting results come only when one is willing to change oneself.
In this one, my view is that there are as yet more tears to come. Avoidable, but will not be avoided. A self-wrought tragedy.
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Termie,
Am working very hard this week(in my dreams) on raising my optimism on the Kenian Negro. Please don't wake me up yet
Yep. Money, populism or both. The wall fits that criteria. There is no honest attempt to understand why this shit is happening.
If the jubilant can PR his way out of it, he will happily live with Garissa University on a daily basis.
I don't know what it will take to sober up the leadership.
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I don't know what it will take to sober up the leadership.
His tastes are well-known, so that's an easy one: shut down the Glenfiddich Distillery in Dufftown, Scotland.
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Sir no Sir!
The negro is into Jameson...has no time for etiquette, drinks straight from the bottle. They should have nuked Dublin when fighting IRA I. Which case mhe would be a faithful tither in my church.
I don't know what it will take to sober up the leadership.
His tastes are well-known, so that's an easy one: shut down the Glenfiddich Distillery in Dufftown, Scotland.
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I shall bore you guys to death. I do not plan to give up soon.
I notice everybody commending the UoN kids for doing what humans do - flight. Bella has wondered why not enough of them fled. I do too. This is supposed to be one of the questions asked. Humans can survive a two story jump unless they fall by the head and break their neck. We know some that have survived six floor falls. So it is a legitimate question to ask.
My attention still focuses on the missing students. What was their role in this? Are they victims who have suffered a worse fate such as kidnapping and sexual enslavement? Did they serve as human shields and ended up in a mass grave in some part of the vast arid plains? Or were they active participants in the attack?
I have some personal experience in these matters and know that the key to some puzzles may lie in figuring out what is missing. No decent security system can ignore a missing or mysterious person in such a matter.
Let me speculate: Perhaps the so called missing students were part of the terror attack and prevented or sabotaged flight?
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Omollo,
I have heard mention of missing students.
What stands out to me? That the story has not come from the survivors. Fellow students, some of whom would surely know about it.
While it's important to account for everyone. This particular story seems like reaching.
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Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
National Sunday Law remains a retarded pipe dream.
One only needs to look at trillions burnt in Afghanistan and Iraq in imposing Western values of 'democracy' before hallucinating about a Catholicism and USA tag team that will enforce Sunday Worship in the entire 155 countries of the world, pissing off Hindus,Jews,atheists,humanists and behead Nuff Sed for sabbath keeping
Terrorists use something they know true Christians (SDAs right?) cannot employ - deceit and violence. In the past, 'Christians' have employed violence to persecute true believers (see my signature). The greatest proof of the divine hand in true Christianity is in the manner in which true Christians have restrained themselves from employing violence and deceit to counter the religious terrorists. Just like Christ could not use deceit and Bible misinterpretation to counter Satan, today's true Christians must guard against using violence to counter religious terrorism. If violence were to be employed, minority Christian groups like JWs, Sabbatarians and anti-trinitarians would be subjected to what the Roman church did to martyrs in the dark ages. And there lies the danger of church uniting with state. At first it will be in the guise of fighting terrorism and soon after Christians will fight other Christians over the things (Sabbath keeping :lolz:)they cannot agree on.
Matthew 4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
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Termie
GoK detained all survivors and sequestered them to avoid the media. The media people have imposed self-censorship. There have been cases of open defiance at funerals where Uhuru Kenyatta's speech has been discarded amid protests. Note that he never attended a single one nor mobilized the many useless Jubilee Ministers, Senators and Principal Secretaries to represent Sirkal in the funerals. Its not because he didn't see the cheap PR opportunity but in line with the policy of secret burials of KDF fallen soldiers, this was to end as fast and as quietly as possible. On this occasion too, the Opposition seems to have played ball. Raila did not attend any funerals nor make any hard hitting statements.
What I am saying is if you look very carefully you would notice an invisible hand working tirelessly to control information. I read the latest gaffes by Ole Nkai-silly defending the attack on journalists and wonder where Jubilee is heading. Unless there is another Okwemba, the one I know is an old man who cannot recover from broken bones. How can a whole Internal Security CS claim that journalists carry guns in their cameras? Is he inciting violence against journalists? However watch how silent they are in the face of this abuse.
Yesterday a major scandal rolled out and landed in the ground seemingly unnoticed. Sonko has been bribing journalists to censor any critical stories about him. On this occasion he gave out a huge cash bribe that caused the Swahili service journalists of citizen TV to fight to near death. I understand they are suspended. Now many Kenyans are wondering just how that is possible. Journalists dog politicians on a daily basis for money so they can sex up stories. Those who pay get the best stories while those who refuse suffer bad publicity.
Many politicians have now learned. I know a governor or two who have employed a battery of qualified journalists and equipped them on the same lines as the UKSPU (Uhuru Kenyatta Spin and Propaganda Unit). Journalists assigned to cover these governors are kept in luxury hotels with alcohol and prostitutes and later handed ready made videos for a quick audio synchronization. They never even have an idea of what it is they are broadcasting.
Sorry for the rant but I wanted to show you one of the reasons why you may not hear much from the media.
Omollo,
I have heard mention of missing students.
What stands out to me? That the story has not come from the survivors. Fellow students, some of whom would surely know about it.
While it's important to account for everyone. This particular story seems like reaching.
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Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.
Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS
Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
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Omorlo,
How many survivors of this attack do we have?
Are we saying that they are all on a tight leash? Why can't activists approach them if we don't trust the media seeing it is compromised.
I have asked you this question before;
How hard is it to contact the 166 families of the missing? Add to this the survivors and their families. Surely they would know by now who died and who survived. This is a school after all, a close community. On the contrary I have watched several clips of survivors interviewed.
You have every right to mistrust authorities but taking this too far leads you down the same rabbit hole as Auntie Hubris and his neo-con-Zionist conspiracies.
While we may berate the medi for not aksin 'hard' questions such as these, I also blame them for not pinning the proponents of the 166-missing-students theories. How did they arrive at the figure? Do they have the names? What is the college administration saying? And so forth
A mass burial as imagined by Alai of 166 would lead to some serious murmuring. How can 166 families be silenced with their missing kids and missing bodies and GoK indifference? Mass kidnapping theory too has weaknesses. Where would you take them at night and using what means? And your accomplices theory as well. An attack involving over 100 students is hard to imagine. In ALL Al shabab attacks, they have involved far fewer fighters. Now imagine over 100 students sleepers?
Termie
GoK detained all survivors and sequestered them to avoid the media. The media people have imposed self-censorship. There have been cases of open defiance at funerals where Uhuru Kenyatta's speech has been discarded amid protests. Note that he never attended a single one nor mobilized the many useless Jubilee Ministers, Senators and Principal Secretaries to represent Sirkal in the funerals. Its not because he didn't see the cheap PR opportunity but in line with the policy of secret burials of KDF fallen soldiers, this was to end as fast and as quietly as possible. On this occasion too, the Opposition seems to have played ball. Raila did not attend any funerals nor make any hard hitting statements.
What I am saying is if you look very carefully you would notice an invisible hand working tirelessly to control information. I read the latest gaffes by Ole Nkai-silly defending the attack on journalists and wonder where Jubilee is heading. Unless there is another Okwemba, the one I know is an old man who cannot recover from broken bones. How can a whole Internal Security CS claim that journalists carry guns in their cameras? Is he inciting violence against journalists? However watch how silent they are in the face of this abuse.
Yesterday a major scandal rolled out and landed in the ground seemingly unnoticed. Sonko has been bribing journalists to censor any critical stories about him. On this occasion he gave out a huge cash bribe that caused the Swahili service journalists of citizen TV to fight to near death. I understand they are suspended. Now many Kenyans are wondering just how that is possible. Journalists dog politicians on a daily basis for money so they can sex up stories. Those who pay get the best stories while those who refuse suffer bad publicity.
Many politicians have now learned. I know a governor or two who have employed a battery of qualified journalists and equipped them on the same lines as the UKSPU (Uhuru Kenyatta Spin and Propaganda Unit). Journalists assigned to cover these governors are kept in luxury hotels with alcohol and prostitutes and later handed ready made videos for a quick audio synchronization. They never even have an idea of what it is they are broadcasting.
Sorry for the rant but I wanted to show you one of the reasons why you may not hear much from the media.
Omollo,
I have heard mention of missing students.
What stands out to me? That the story has not come from the survivors. Fellow students, some of whom would surely know about it.
While it's important to account for everyone. This particular story seems like reaching.
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A freelance photographer was arrested on suspicion of being a terrorist at Galleria Mall in Karen, Nairobi on Tuesday night.
Police said Msingi Sasis was arrested after he was seen taking pictures in the premises.
"The police came to his rescue after members of the public claimed he was suspiciously taking photographs without their consent," an officer said.
(http://www.the-star.co.ke/sites/default/files/styles/pictorial_slider/public/images/articles/2015/04/22/28911/12_0.jpg?itok=5hJhTR1Q)
He said the photographer was taken to Lang'ata Police Station where he spent the night after he was booked in as a "terror suspect".
Sasis is still under investigation, the officer said.
His brother Victor claimed they were only allowed to see him after pleading.
"On arrival at the police station we were notified that Msingi was not there which really shocked us, but with great pleading we were able to see him," he said.
He said Sasis slipped them a note saying he was terrified and asked them to contact an activist.
"We are very worried because he looked traumatised and kept on saying he might be transferred to any location because they say he is a terror suspect. The current situation makes it very dangerous," he said.
Lang'ata OCPD Elijah Mwangi said he could not comment since he was off duty while deputy OCPD Mwangi Kuria declined saying he could not verify the reporter's identity.
- See more at: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/photographer-arrested-terror-suspect-galleria-mall-held-questioning#sthash.RVuerYYe.dpuf
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The question of keeping the survivors on a tight leash first arose during the siege. I am almost sure you did raise it at some point if not somebody else (here or at choo.com). Interviews took place during the siege - (which I have condemned as a huge mistake because an average Somali follows BBC and by extrapolation the Somali terrorists inside the death hostels could have followed the stories about hiding students on mobile-phones).
Then came the clamp down when all the survivors were all taken to Nairobi ostensibly for counselling. After emerging from there, their testimonies have been mechanical and almost coached (my personal subjective opinion). Stories of feeding on cosmetics, or is it lady gay to survive have been sold to British tabloids and many are now "famous". I smell a stinking rat! Could Tony Blair be earning his cash at last???
Contacting the 166: Here you make some assumptions. You take it for granted that everybody knows who these people are and that they have bona fide families with addresses that one can contact. You are getting in to the Garlic logic.
First of all if nobody is coming forward to ask for the whereabouts of the missing students then it should raise red flags rather than have a calming effect. It would be suggesting that:
(a) The missing have no guardians / parents
(b) The guardians / parents care nothing or have not heard of the tragedy
(c) The said missing were "ghost" students to milk the system
(d) They were an advance Al Shabaab "sleeper" squad.
Secondly, it is the duty and responsibility of the security forces to scan through the admission and contact data of the students and verify the information. This must be done for ALL the GUC students and lecturers - not just the missing. A crime has been committed and the possible accomplices remain unknown. It could also be any of the lecturers, the subordinate staff or neighbors. I can volunteer to do the screening for free.
Is this a conspiracy theory? Nope! The difference between what I am saying and a conspiracy theory is that I am asking questions and making suggestions about what could have been done and what can still be done. I am NOT alleging inconceivables and the raving loony tales such as: GoK staged this and then covered it up and that it actually happened in 2001 and this was just a hollywood show staged and acted in Garissa to get the President of Turkey to accuse the Pope of genocide.
These are suggestions to improve security not undermine it.
BTW nobody imagines this is the last attack. Nothing has changed and nothing is changing which means more such grisly attacks will be attempted. We all have to chip in. Who know, it could be your church next!
I did not create the figure 166. GoK did. They have subsequently tried to reduce it by upping the number of students rescued. I have addressed the discrepancies in detail elsewhere. vooke, I have studied matters of security as part of my job and I can assure you missing anything is very important and leads to sleepless nights.
1. A missing car for example could return booby trapped;
2. A missing staff member may return dressed up in a suicide vest;
3. A missing photocopier could be "found" with explosives, listening devices and hostile human or snake inside, etc.
My plea remains that not enough attention has been paid to a crucial part of the attack. Important information to be used in future to prevent the attacks may be lost.
For example, if they found that the "theory" of advance sleeper squads is real, then a quiet screening of ALL colleges and universities could save lives.
The college admin gave the figure of the enrolled and present and added nothing.
I don not agree with the claim that Al Shabaab uses few attackers. The last video of Mpeketoni shows a very large group. We have no idea if that was the only group. They had enough time to bury their dead (a grave that remains untraced to date - unless GoK has kept it secret). They bring their own media crew and obviously a lot of support staff.
From what we learned of the Westgate attack; the organizers left for Somalia once the attack began. The others hovered around for a while before also escaping leaving behind suicide bombers to create a diversion while the main group escaped.
I have no idea nor can I speculate where the 166 are. I have already provided several scenarios (scroll up) which include ghost students.
I do not share Alai's view on mass burials. I posted it somewhere to irritate the irritable
Omorlo,
How many survivors of this attack do we have?
Are we saying that they are all on a tight leash? Why can't activists approach them if we don't trust the media seeing it is compromised.
I have asked you this question before;
How hard is it to contact the 166 families of the missing? Add to this the survivors and their families. Surely they would know by now who died and who survived. This is a school after all, a close community. On the contrary I have watched several clips of survivors interviewed.
You have every right to mistrust authorities but taking this too far leads you down the same rabbit hole as Auntie Hubris and his neo-con-Zionist conspiracies.
While we may berate the medi for not aksin 'hard' questions such as these, I also blame them for not pinning the proponents of the 166-missing-students theories. How did they arrive at the figure? Do they have the names? What is the college administration saying? And so forth
A mass burial as imagined by Alai of 166 would lead to some serious murmuring. How can 166 families be silenced with their missing kids and missing bodies and GoK indifference? Mass kidnapping theory too has weaknesses. Where would you take them at night and using what means? And your accomplices theory as well. An attack involving over 100 students is hard to imagine. In ALL Al shabab attacks, they have involved far fewer fighters. Now imagine over 100 students sleepers?
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Omorlo,
Nobody discounts the merits of a thorough investigation into the 'missing'. Question is do we have 'missing' students in the first place.
The media as usual went wild and reported several things including differing numbers of the deaf and rescued. I think this is normal. Students was fleeing throughout, killings was over the college not on one point. The apparent GoK reluctance to share the final tally appears to be your strongest indication of a coverup. You have even gone as far as suggesting it is possible given the quiet KDF death toll in Somalia and burials.
What I have done is to RULE out the least likely scenarios;
GoK hiding the final count is extremely difficult especially in such an organized place; this is a school with records of everyone on the compound unlike Westgate. And the 'hidden' deaths would have been students known to somebody and belonging to families. Remember 'hidden' means they was actual students.
Kidnapping is not even worth discussing.
Sleeper cells of 166 out of 800 students is......a distant possibility.
We never had dozens of gunmen at Westgate, just the few everyone saw landing in a Probox. I don't understand why we are inclined to imagine that it takes more than the 4-5 gunmen to do it. Of course it is far more exciting exaggerating GoK failure...perfectly understandable
We are only left with ghost students, and even this only if we have any 'missing' students in the first place. Missing students is unwarranted and unsubstantiated sensational claims at best
The question of keeping the survivors on a tight leash first arose during the siege. I am almost sure you did raise it at some point if not somebody else (here or at choo.com). Interviews took place during the siege - which I have condemned as a huge mistake because an average Somali follows BBC and by extrapolation the Somali terrorists inside the death hostels could have followed the stories about hiding students on mobile-phones.
Then came the clamp down when they were all taken to Nairobi ostensibly for counselling. After emerging their testimonies have been mechanical and almost coached (my personal subjective opinion). Stories of feeding on cosmetics to survive have been sold to British tabloids and many are now "famous". I smell a stinking rat! Could Tony Blair be earning his cash at last???
Contacting the 166: Here you make some assumptions. You take it for granted that everybody knows who these people are and that they have bona fide families with addresses that one can contact. You are getting in to the Garlic logic.
First of all if nobody is coming forward to ask for the whereabouts of the missing students then it should raise red flags rather than have a calming effect. It would be suggesting that:
(a) The missing have no guardians / parents
(b) The guardians / parents care nothing or have not heard of the tragedy
(c) The said missing were "ghost" students to milk the system
(d) They were an advance Al Shabaab "sleeper" squad.
Secondly, it is the duty and responsibility of the security forces to scan through the admission and contact data of the students and verify the information. This must be done for ALL the GUC students and lecturers - not just the missing. A crime has been committed and the possible accomplices remain unknown. It could also be any of the lecturers, the subordinate staff or neighbors. I can volunteer to do the screening for free.
The difference between what I am saying and a conspiracy theory is that I am asking questions and making suggestions about what could have been done and what can still be done. I am NOT alleging inconceivables and the raving loony tales such as: GoK staged this and then covered it up and that it actually happened in 2001 and this was just a hollywood show staged and acted in Garissa to get the President of Turkey to accuse the Pope of genocide. These are suggestions to improve security. BTW nobody imagines this is the last attack. Nothing has changed and nothing is changing which means more such grisly attacks will be attempted. We all have to chip in. Who know, it could be your church next!
I did not create the figure 166. GoK did. They have subsequently tried to reduce it by upping the number of students rescued. I have addressed the discrepancies in detail elsewhere. vooke, I have studied matters of security as part of my job and I can assure you missing anything is very important.
A missing car for example could return booby trapped; A missing staff member may return dressed up in a suicide vest; A missing photocopier could be "found" with explosives, listening devices and hostile human or snake inside, etc. My plea remains that not enough attention has been paid to a crucial part of the attack. Important information to be used in future to prevent the attacks may be lost.
For example, if they found that the "theory" of advance sleeper squads is real, then a quiet screening of ALL colleges and universities could save lives.
The college admin gave the figure of the enrolled and present and added nothing.
I don not agree with the claim that Al Shabaab uses few attackers. The last video of Mpeketoni shows a very large group. We have no idea if that was the only group. They had enough time to bury their dead (a grave that remains untraced to date - unless GoK has kept it secret). They bring their own media crew and obviously a lot of support staff.
From what we learned of the Westgate attack; the organizers left for Somalia once the attack began. The others hovered around for a while before also escaping leaving behind suicide bombers to create a diversion while the main group escaped.
I have no idea nor can I speculate where the 166 are. I have already provided several scenarios (scroll up) which include ghost students.
I do not share Alai's view on mass burials. I posted it somewhere to irritate the irritable
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There was a FaceBook page for missing students. What are the tallies so far? Another very remote place where the missing students could be traced is from the Italian embassy. Remote because it is unlikely they will report if they were sleeper cells.
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Your anti-Adventist crusade knows no bounds. I already posted for you documented persecution from
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/ and all you did was to accuse the website of being Adventist and add your usual dose of ad hominem. Let me add http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/ just in case.
(http://www.pewforum.org/files/2014/01/restrict-5-14.png)
Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.
Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS
Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
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What. Was EGW smoking to imagine USA teaming with Roman Catholic Church to behead SDAs for sabbath keeping? Is that not your ENDGAME? Is there anything else you look forward to apart from NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW and SDAs beheading on account of sabbath?
I can forgive EGW; she was illiterate, schizo, retarded and a plagiarist so much that she dubbed a sci-Fi novel about Jupiter's Giants. But what is Nuff Sed's excuse?
Unthaw your brains my sista
Your anti-Adventist crusade knows no bounds. I already posted for you documented persecution from
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/ and all you did was to accuse the website of being Adventist and add your usual dose of ad hominem. Let me add http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/ just in case.
Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.
Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS
Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
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Religious persecution is well documented. Go slow on ad hominem. And I'm not sure where you got the notion that someone said the US and the Catholic church will behead people in tandem. Some religions may justify persecution of 'non-believers' and conversions by the gun. What concerns me is persecution of believers by fellow 'believers'.
What. Was EGW smoking to imagine USA teaming with Roman Catholic Church to behead SDAs for sabbath keeping? Is that not your ENDGAME? Is there anything else you look forward to apart from NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW and SDAs beheading on account of sabbath?
I can forgive EGW; she was illiterate, schizo, retarded and a plagiarist so much that she dubbed a sci-Fi novel about Jupiter's Giants. But what is Nuff Sed's excuse?
Unthaw your brains my sista
Your anti-Adventist crusade knows no bounds. I already posted for you documented persecution from
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/ and all you did was to accuse the website of being Adventist and add your usual dose of ad hominem. Let me add http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/ just in case.
Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.
Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS
Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
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They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.
Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
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Religious persecution is well documented. Go slow on ad hominem. And I'm not sure where you got the notion that someone said the US and the Catholic church will behead people in tandem.
This garbage is straight from your 'inspired' sewers Nuff Sed. Religious (non-SDA) powers unite, they exert enough power on the civil authority so much as to affect legislation,they then criminalize Sabbath keeping.
The end of all things is at hand. The time of trouble is about to come upon the people of God. Then it is that the decree will go forth forbidding those who keep the Sabbath of the Lord to buy or sell, and threatening them with punishment, and even death, if they do not observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath."28
http://www.nonegw.org/nsl/egw22a.htm
In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. —The Great Controversy, p. 443.
When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result. —The Great Controversy, page 445.
This argument will appear conclusive; and a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. —The Great Controversy, pp.615, 617.
Some religions may justify persecution of 'non-believers' and conversions by the gun. What concerns me is persecution of believers by fellow 'believers'.
What should concern you more is how much garbage you believe is inspired, isn't that blaspheming Holy Spirit imagining this is His job?
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Bella I subject myself to moderation and if my post is removed for that reason I wouldn't mind. I'd just like to remind you that the victims of the Garissa massacre were chosen on the basis of their belief. It may be easy to delete my post but it will be very hard to remove religion from the massacre. I'm impressed though that you have opted to go silent on the manner in which Pastor Ad Hominem follows Daily Bread like a blood hound but somehow think my mention of religious persecution calls for moderation. The first mention of Adventists in this thread is by the usual suspect, not me.
More news:
“You cannot force religion on people. Religion is between individuals and their God,” the President said while acknowledging greetings from Kisumu residents who turned up in the streets to cheer him.
Uhuru who was in Kisumu for the 2nd Annual Conference on Devolution, said Kenyans of different religious backgrounds have been living peacefully and will not be divided by selfish interests.
He blamed the Garissa killings on religious extremism saying leaders should unite and fight vices that threaten peace and harmony in the country.
- See more at: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/uhuru-vows-hunt-down-hate-preachers#sthash.UlHbFv93.dpuf
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.
Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
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You are the one injecting totally unrelated motif on this thread, I suppose the current theory in SDA circles is worldwide persecution of SDAs by non-SDAs as predicted by EGW is no more a remote possibility seeing Islamic extremism is here with us
Bella I subject myself to moderation and if my post is removed for that reason I wouldn't mind. I'd just like to remind you that the victims of the Garissa massacre were chosen on the basis of their belief. It may be easy to delete my post but it will be very hard to remove religion from the massacre. I'm impressed though that you have opted to go silent on the manner in which Pastor Ad Hominem follows Daily Bread like a blood hound but somehow think my mention of religious persecution calls for moderation. The first mention of Adventists in this thread is by the usual suspect, not me.
More news:
“You cannot force religion on people. Religion is between individuals and their God,” the President said while acknowledging greetings from Kisumu residents who turned up in the streets to cheer him.
Uhuru who was in Kisumu for the 2nd Annual Conference on Devolution, said Kenyans of different religious backgrounds have been living peacefully and will not be divided by selfish interests.
He blamed the Garissa killings on religious extremism saying leaders should unite and fight vices that threaten peace and harmony in the country.
- See more at: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/uhuru-vows-hunt-down-hate-preachers#sthash.UlHbFv93.dpuf
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.
Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
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Daily Bread, I am sure you have read the post in which I appealed to vooke just a few days ago, to give you some space, so suffice it to say, your complaint here about my "silence" is hypocritical. You introduced purely Christian denominational fights here with zero to do with terrorism or the massacre, you are the one who provided the bait that vooke took in responding to you. Garissa people were targeted as Christians, not SDAs, yet you are talking about SDAs and Saturday. If that is not off-topic, I don't know what is. Also, I haven't attacked you, I have simply asked that this side-shows be put in their own discussions where they will be the main topic and not side-shows messing up another discussion.
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Bella,
I greatly appreciate that you asked Voke to give me space. That was in a forum where he is moderator. While I acknowledge it with gratitude, I'm specific that he has followed me to this discussion and brought up Adventism. Looks like he didn't hear you. In your opinion he has characteristically swallowed my bait. Be patient though. Discussions can morph in certain natural ways (see how media and censorship has come up). I'll lay off just in case you think the religious aspect is not relevant (Uhuru and I :D think it does, if it matters). Pastor AD Hominem will be very glad I guess.
Daily Bread, I am sure you have read the post in which I appealed to vooke just a few days ago, to give you some space, so suffice it to say, your complaint here about my "silence" is hypocritical. You introduced purely Christian denominational fights here with zero to do with terrorism or the massacre, you are the one who provided the bait that vooke took in responding to you. Garissa people were targeted as Christians, not SDAs, yet you are talking about SDAs and Saturday. If that is not off-topic, I don't know what is. Also, I haven't attacked you, I have simply asked that this side-shows be put in their own discussions where they will be the main topic and not side-shows messing up another discussion.
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I enjoy your debates and often read from the sidelines. You can be sure I have an eye and ear for ad hominem being both victim and ravisher at once.
I think you have slightly misunderstood him. He used that as an illustration, figure of speech or old style example. He could have said: Once Hitler went after Jews, it was only a matter of time before he move against Gypsies, Africans, Homosexuals, The Disabled or as Goebbels called it "Idiot".
At least that is how I understood it. SDA would be marked for marking the Sabbath as would the Jews etc.
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.
Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
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Terrorists use something they know true Christians cannot employ - deceit and violence. In the past, 'Christians' have employed violence to persecute true believers (see my signature).
True
The greatest proof of the divine hand in true Christianity is in the manner in which true Christians have restrained themselves from employing violence and deceit to counter the religious terrorists.
Give modern examples of this say in the last 150 years. Of course at the back of your mind, 'true Christianity' is your sect SDA because when they were 'persecuted' for sabbath keeping, they never fought back. But so are Jehovah's Witnesses and many diverse sects
Just like Christ could not use deceit and Bible misinterpretation to counter Satan, today's true Christians must guard against using violence to counter religious terrorism.
Is government's response by counterterrorism 'violence'? How would you have the government respond?
If violence were to be employed, minority Christian groups like JWs, Sabbatarians and anti-trinitarians would be subjected to what the Roman church did to martyrs in the dark ages.
Ok. Christians should not solve their differences using violence
And there lies the danger of church uniting with state.
How does violence employed to counter religious violence result in 'church uniting with state'?
At first it will be in the guise of fighting terrorism and soon after Christians will fight other Christians over the things they cannot agree on.
So.....if GoK employs violence in tackling religious terrorism, it is a precursor to Christian-Christian violence?
You have so unintelligently attempted to inject SDA persecution complex into this. Kadame rightfully tells you this is NATIONAL INSECURITY. Have you seen 'Christians' or Christians attempt to use violence anywhere? Have you heard such suggestions? What would you have GoK do?
You made several disjointed statements which points to a quick copy+pasting. You can see how you make little sense in attempting to share the risk of Christian-Christian terrorism (code word for SDAs being butchered over sabbath keeping) rising out of counter-terrorism
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Omollo,
I will be the first to tell anyone who cares to listen to trust utumishi kwa wote at their own peril. What kind of person trusts these people?
Muchai, Yebei, Mercy Keino...these and similar cases will fail to be cracked in ways that can only be the result of a special effort.
Admittedly, I haven't followed the Garissa saga beyond what is in the mainstream. But the motive for covering up 166 missing people escapes me.
While I believe more than 147 died. I don't think it was many more.
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Panic is not a bad thing ... it leads to people awakening their natural instincts of fight or flight in cases of danger ... we are having very docile executive, judiciary, legislature, police, army, population given we have all grown up in 'island of peace' era mindset
this islamic extremism -al shaitan, boko haram, ISIs.... if it will have achieved one positive thing it is putting populations and institutions in affected nations out of their shallow comfort zones ...
when people start asking 'if uhuru/odinga/ruto can't protect my kid what is his use?' ...that is a milestone for our personal and collective societal development
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I enjoy your debates and often read from the sidelines. You can be sure I have an eye and ear for ad hominem being both victim and ravisher at once.
I think you have slightly misunderstood him. He used that as an illustration, figure of speech or old style example. He could have said: Once Hitler went after Jews, it was only a matter of time before he move against Gypsies, Africans, Homosexuals, The Disabled or as Goebbels called it "Idiot".
At least that is how I understood it. SDA would be marked for marking the Sabbath as would the Jews etc.
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.
Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
Omollo captures it very well. In a related development, I'm just hearing that KU students fled their hostels after a letter surfaced in the institution that Al Shabaab were planning a number on them. They refused to sleep in the hostels and could be found in places as far as K1. Hostels in places like Kahawa West were full to capacity. In an attempt to restore order, police have been poured into the university but the students are skeptical. In one stroke of terror, Al Shabaab have brought tourism in Kenya to nothing. Now university education is in shambles just like Omollo said.
I'm no advocate for violence but
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DB
Nobody on this board supports violence. We are all for peace. It sad that when we ask questions of the government as is our right and point out mistakes and errors as we conscientious and patriotic citizens should, the knee-jerk reaction to to label us names and in some cases unleash killers of the many EJK squads.
For record, RV Pundit led the opposition to the deployment in Somalia. He and I joined by many people (some who have since crossed over to support what they originally opposed) tried to appeal to common sense. We could with examples show why Kenya as a neighbor of Somalia could not get involved in their civil war. We pointed out that history has shown such an involvement only succeeds in expanding the war in to areas it was not before starting with the intervening country.
Cambodia got involved in the Vietnam war by allowing both the Vietnamese and the Americans to use their country to launch attacks on each other. She ended up in the thick of it and remained in that war long after it ended in Vietnam.
I am afraid just like Pundit has pointed out, if we pull out today, we have to work hard to win the insurgency that will grow in the former NFD for the next two decades. Only hard work and honesty will help us win otherwise there is a real danger that the very Somalia we are helping to stabilize will work against us in that struggle.
Lastly, something I have been meaning to say: When did Kenya's policy of having a weak Somalia change? The independence of Kenya was guaranteed by the continued weakness of Somalia. We were content to help Ethiopia weaken Somalia. Ethiopia was doing a good job on her own for us. Why did we get in to it directly?
Omollo captures it very well. In a related development, I'm just hearing that KU students fled their hostels after a letter surfaced in the institution that Al Shabaab were planning a number on them. They refused to sleep in the hostels and could be found in places as far as K1. Hostels in places like Kahawa West were full to capacity. In an attempt to restore order, police have been poured into the university but the students are skeptical. In one stroke of terror, Al Shabaab have brought tourism in Kenya to nothing. Now university education is in shambles just like Omollo said.
I'm no advocate for violence but
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Panic is not a bad thing ... it leads to people awakening their natural instincts of fight or flight in cases of danger ... we are having very docile executive, judiciary, legislature, police, army, population given we have all grown up in 'island of peace' era mindset
this islamic extremism -al shaitan, boko haram, ISIs.... if it will have achieved one positive thing it is putting populations and institutions in affected nations out of their shallow comfort zones ...
when people start asking 'if uhuru/odinga/ruto can't protect my kid what is his use?' ...that is a milestone for our personal and collective societal development
That is the real tragedy in all these....that merely asking questions is considered a milestone by Kenyan standards......The alshabab outfit has attacked us time and time again, from Westgate to mpeketoni, while we ask questions, no one has resigned, no police reforms have been undertaken, nothing.....yet we continue to ask questions. I think the time for asking questions is way past...its time to act. If the government will not protect us and our families, it is time we take matters into our own hands. People cannot continue dying while we are still asking questions. Now they have kids too scared to even stay in school, and parents too shaken to even let their kids stay on campus any more....when did this become okay. People should be putting pressure on our politician
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I agree entirely. When the government failed to secure private homes it was forced to accept the concept of community policing though it didn't go far enough. Vigilante groups and community policing are not the same. People didn't just ask questions. Private homes began hiring private security because the government has failed, police have failed in their work. Private individuals own guns precisely because police have failed. Pokots and Turkanas own AKs because police have failed. I'm no advocate for violence but some countries where private individuals own guns (Sweden for example) there are very few incidents of armed attacks on homes. Just wondering whether arming university students can help. Or shall Kenya post armed marshals to student hostels like they do in American schools?
Notice the attempt at moral equivalence by the previous poster.
Panic is not a bad thing ... it leads to people awakening their natural instincts of fight or flight in cases of danger ... we are having very docile executive, judiciary, legislature, police, army, population given we have all grown up in 'island of peace' era mindset
this islamic extremism -al shaitan, boko haram, ISIs.... if it will have achieved one positive thing it is putting populations and institutions in affected nations out of their shallow comfort zones ...
when people start asking 'if uhuru/odinga/ruto can't protect my kid what is his use?' ...that is a milestone for our personal and collective societal development
That is the real tragedy in all these....that merely asking questions is considered a milestone by Kenyan standards......The alshabab outfit has attacked us time and time again, from Westgate to mpeketoni, while we ask questions, no one has resigned, no police reforms have been undertaken, nothing.....yet we continue to ask questions. I think the time for asking questions is way past...its time to act. If the government will not protect us and our families, it is time we take matters into our own hands. People cannot continue dying while we are still asking questions. Now they have kids too scared to even stay in school, and parents too shaken to even let their kids stay on campus any more....when did this become okay. People should be putting pressure on our politician
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I agree entirely. When the government failed to secure private homes it was forced to accept the concept of community policing though it didn't go far enough. Vigilante groups and community policing are not the same. People didn't just ask questions. Private homes began hiring private security because the government has failed, police have failed in their work. Private individuals own guns precisely because police have failed. Pokots and Turkanas own AKs because police have failed. I'm no advocate for violence but some countries where private individuals own guns (Sweden for example) there are very few incidents of armed attacks on homes. Just wondering whether arming university students can help. Or shall Kenya post armed marshals to student hostels like they do in American schools?
Notice the attempt at moral equivalence by the previous poster.
Panic is not a bad thing ... it leads to people awakening their natural instincts of fight or flight in cases of danger ... we are having very docile executive, judiciary, legislature, police, army, population given we have all grown up in 'island of peace' era mindset
this islamic extremism -al shaitan, boko haram, ISIs.... if it will have achieved one positive thing it is putting populations and institutions in affected nations out of their shallow comfort zones ...
when people start asking 'if uhuru/odinga/ruto can't protect my kid what is his use?' ...that is a milestone for our personal and collective societal development
That is the real tragedy in all these....that merely asking questions is considered a milestone by Kenyan standards......The alshabab outfit has attacked us time and time again, from Westgate to mpeketoni, while we ask questions, no one has resigned, no police reforms have been undertaken, nothing.....yet we continue to ask questions. I think the time for asking questions is way past...its time to act. If the government will not protect us and our families, it is time we take matters into our own hands. People cannot continue dying while we are still asking questions. Now they have kids too scared to even stay in school, and parents too shaken to even let their kids stay on campus any more....when did this become okay. People should be putting pressure on our politician
DB
I am no advocate for violence, but when a thief comes into your home to rob and kill…it is self-defense if you take him out. Our nation’s peace has largely been left to the government and its policing agencies. Despite millions being spent annually on salaries, equipment etc., they have miserably failed to do the most basic humane thing. Tell me DB, the police boos got first hand info that there was an attack going on in Garrissa at 5.30 am….knowing everything that he knows (I expect that he knows), how does he justify taking a helicopter ride to the coast while students are being slaughtered……even as a human being surely.
How do the terrorist attack students while there is a soldier or police a few miles from site, and not a single bullet is fired to even attempt to scare the terrorists. The excuse is that they were waiting for bullet proof vests. Had these soldiers have children in that campus, would they have been this casual about it? Operation thunderbolt was in the 1970’s way before the internet when the Israelis were captured in Entebbe on a plane. Within 8-10 hours, there was help already flown in from Israel and all but 1-2 people lost their lives in that operation. This is 2015, where we have real time Intel. Had the students or some other armed security apparatus been around, there wouldn’t have been this many fatalities. When terrorists realize that people are not going to get shot in the head lying down, they will have to think long and hard.
In mpeketoni, they had Intel…..the killers were there all night…..had there been a few armed civilians who are deadly serious about their families, they would not have had it that easy. I just don’t know if we have that many options any more. Is the life of an African really merely worth nothing? In France they shot a few journalists and there were million man marches throughout Europe. Heads of states met and they formed an alliance against this type of organized violence….what will it take for the African to realize that our lives are also just as importunate.
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DB
Nobody on this board supports violence. We are all for peace. It sad that when we ask questions of the government as is our right and point out mistakes and errors as we conscientious and patriotic citizens should, the knee-jerk reaction to to label us names and in some cases unleash killers of the many EJK squads.
For record, RV Pundit led the opposition to the deployment in Somalia. He and I joined by many people (some who have since crossed over to support what they originally opposed) tried to appeal to common sense. We could with examples show why Kenya as a neighbor of Somalia could not get involved in their civil war. We pointed out that history has shown such an involvement only succeeds in expanding the war in to areas it was not before starting with the intervening country.
Cambodia got involved in the Vietnam war by allowing both the Vietnamese and the Americans to use their country to launch attacks on each other. She ended up in the thick of it and remained in that war long after it ended in Vietnam.
I am afraid just like Pundit has pointed out, if we pull out today, we have to work hard to win the insurgency that will grow in the former NFD for the next two decades. Only hard work and honesty will help us win otherwise there is a real danger that the very Somalia we are helping to stabilize will work against us in that struggle.
Lastly, something I have been meaning to say: When did Kenya's policy of having a weak Somalia change? The independence of Kenya was guaranteed by the continued weakness of Somalia. We were content to help Ethiopia weaken Somalia. Ethiopia was doing a good job on her own for us. Why did we get in to it directly?
Omollo captures it very well. In a related development, I'm just hearing that KU students fled their hostels after a letter surfaced in the institution that Al Shabaab were planning a number on them. They refused to sleep in the hostels and could be found in places as far as K1. Hostels in places like Kahawa West were full to capacity. In an attempt to restore order, police have been poured into the university but the students are skeptical. In one stroke of terror, Al Shabaab have brought tourism in Kenya to nothing. Now university education is in shambles just like Omollo said.
I'm no advocate for violence but
I supported Operation Linda Nchi. Because I thought it would result in a Somaliland kind of setup in Jubbaland under Madobe's Ras Kamboni dictatorship underwritten by Kenyan support.
They got derailed along the way eventually joining AMISOM and becoming greedy. I suspect a full withdrawal might result in a mutiny by the soldiers. AMISOM money, charcoal sales, black budget are too sweet to be overridden by rational actions.
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The word is impunity. Forgive me but I see a lot of parallels with the reformation. Most reformers were pacifists and could not countenance violence yet when confronted with papal armies some of them took up arms and I believe God helped them in many victories. Here is an entry from The Great Controversy:
The murderers of Huss did not stand quietly by and witness the triumph of his cause. The pope and the emperor united to crush out the movement, and the armies of Sigismund were hurled upon Bohemia.
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But a deliverer was raised up. Ziska, who soon after the opening of the war became totally blind, yet who was one of the ablest generals of his age, was the leader of the Bohemians. Trusting in the help of God and the righteousness of their cause, that people withstood the mightiest armies that could be brought against them. Again and again the emperor, raising fresh armies, invaded Bohemia, only to be ignominiously repulsed. The Hussites were raised above the fear of death, and nothing could stand against them. A few years after the opening of the war, the brave Ziska died; but his place was filled by Procopius, who was an equally brave and skillful general, and in some respects a more able leader.
The enemies of the Bohemians, knowing that the blind warrior was dead, deemed the opportunity favorable for recovering all that they had lost. The pope now proclaimed a crusade against the Hussites, and again an immense force was precipitated upon Bohemia, but only to suffer terrible defeat. Another crusade was proclaimed. In all the papal countries of Europe, men, money, and munitions of war were raised. Multitudes flocked to the papal standard, assured that at last an end would be made of the Hussite heretics. Confident of victory, the vast force entered Bohemia. The people rallied to repel them. The two armies approached each other until only a river lay between them. "The crusaders were in greatly superior force, but instead of dashing across the stream, and closing in battle with the Hussites whom they had come so far to meet, they stood gazing in silence at those warriors."--Wylie, b. 3, ch. 17. Then suddenly a mysterious terror fell upon the host. Without striking a blow, that mighty force broke and scattered as if dispelled by an unseen power. Great numbers were slaughtered by the Hussite army, which pursued the fugitives, and an immense booty fell into the hands of the victors, so that the war, instead of impoverishing, enriched the Bohemians.
A few years later, under a new pope, still another crusade was set on foot. As before, men and means were drawn
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from all the papal countries of Europe. Great were the inducements held out to those who should engage in this perilous enterprise. Full forgiveness of the most heinous crimes was ensured to every crusader. All who died in the war were promised a rich reward in heaven, and those who survived were to reap honor and riches on the field of battle. Again a vast army was collected, and, crossing the frontier they entered Bohemia. The Hussite forces fell back before them, thus drawing the invaders farther and farther into the country, and leading them to count the victory already won. At last the army of Procopius made a stand, and turning upon the foe, advanced to give them battle. The crusaders, now discovering their mistake, lay in their encampment awaiting the onset. As the sound of the approaching force was heard, even before the Hussites were in sight, a panic again fell upon the crusaders. Princes, generals, and common soldiers, casting away their armor, fled in all directions. In vain the papal legate, who was the leader of the invasion, endeavored to rally his terrified and disorganized forces. Despite his utmost endeavors, he himself was swept along in the tide of fugitives. The rout was complete, and again an immense booty fell into the hands of the victors.
Thus the second time a vast army, sent forth by the most powerful nations of Europe, a host of brave, warlike men, trained and equipped for battle, fled without a blow before the defenders of a small and hitherto feeble nation. Here was a manifestation of divine power. The invaders were smitten with a supernatural terror. He who overthrew the hosts of Pharaoh in the Red Sea, who put to flight the armies of Midian before Gideon and his three hundred, who in one night laid low the forces of the proud Assyrian, had again stretched out His hand to wither the power of the oppressor. "There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them." Psalm 53:5.
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc6.html
In this endtime era, we are not to take up arms but to preach the word. A Christian nation like Kenya can do some great things for peace without taking arms. Like withdrawing from Somalia. When we take up arms and fight for peace, it is achieved (if at all) at great cost. In Kibaki's thinking, Kenya was fighting for peace but look at the awful cost!
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Omollo I too didn't like the smell of the Somalia war. War only begets war. Kenya did not have to enter Somalia to stand for peace. The sooner we acknowledge that mistake and get out the better it will be for the country. A wise man changes his mind, so the good book says.
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DB
It has sadly taken a political and tribal direction. I and RV Pundit suffered near ostracization when we abandoned convention and opposed the war warning of dire consequences. Most of what Pundit warned about is happening as we speak.
I don't see how it is going to end. It is definitely too hot for Al Shabaab in Somalia and they are relocating to Kenya.
I need to ask you if you know that a number of Christians are supporting the war out of the desire for revenge against "Muslims". You and I know that such calls are music to Al Shabaab's ears because they know KDF would seek revenge and visit retribution on Somali civilians - and by that scoring better than any recruiter's propaganda.
Omollo I too didn't like the smell of the Somalia war. War only begets war. Kenya did not have to enter Somalia to stand for peace. The sooner we acknowledge that mistake and get out the better it will be for the country. A wise man changes his mind, so the good book says.
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Termie
It was a mistake from the word go. I didn't have the beef on Madobe until Pundit exposed him. However note the following:
1. Kenya's policy was to ensure that Somalia remained a weak nation. She was blocked by Ethiopia in the North West and Kenya in the west. Kenya barred her entry in to the EAC while signing a Common defense and non aggression pact with her (Ethiopia). The two coordinated their preparedness against Somalia;
2. Somalis treated Kenya as their bank manager and with that kind of leverage, GoK could have kept Al Shabaab out of the Fatherland without provoking them to hostility. We knew they are banking in Kenya and have heavily invested in property. That would have been sufficient leverage to blackmail them in to keeping the war out of Kenya. That would mean limiting the use of Kenya as a springboard to launch drones and other black ops in Somalia. Djibouti is enough for such
3. Kenya could have traded with Somalia and Somalis and even encouraged the setting up of supermarkets in Mandera and Wajir. We could have made money from both sides (a sin but good politics)
Instead we chose war. See what it has done to tourism - the very reason we claimed to go there in the first place. Look at how our kids are sleeping in K1 among chang'aa addicts and highway robbers.
I supported Operation Linda Nchi. Because I thought it would result in a Somaliland kind of setup in Jubbaland under Madobe's Ras Kamboni dictatorship underwritten by Kenyan support.
They got derailed along the way eventually joining AMISOM and becoming greedy. I suspect a full withdrawal might result in a mutiny by the soldiers. AMISOM money, charcoal sales, black budget are too sweet to be overridden by rational actions.
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Living in Nairobi is as close to hell as it gets. I'm informed today a message is circulating that an attack is planned on commuters during the evening jam. I wonder what Kidero and Sonko think of that. Today's alert reportedly comes from a security company and one of the foreign missions that gave a similar warning just before Garissa attacks, which alert the Men on the Hill promptly dismissed and waited for Garissa to happen. To make matters worse, police are said to be on a go-slow because of some pay issues. Which is surprising because people living in the big city wonder what's new with that. If you go to town regularly these days, you must put your house in order every time you leave, consciously.
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Living in Nairobi is as close to hell as it gets. I'm informed today a message is circulating that an attack is planned on commuters during the evening jam. I wonder what Kidero and Sonko think of that. Today's alert reportedly comes from a security company and one of the foreign missions that gave a similar warning just before Garissa attacks, which alert the Men on the Hill promptly dismissed and waited for Garissa to happen. To make matters worse, police are said to be on a go-slow because of some pay issues. Which is surprising because people living in the big city wonder what's new with that. If you go to town regularly these days, you must put your house in order every time you leave, consciously.
DB stay safe. This is why I think the citizens need to start playing defense with these savages......take care of their own security since those we entrust with out safety do not care
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Pole sana. I remember my days working in Afghanistan.
Living in Nairobi is as close to hell as it gets. I'm informed today a message is circulating that an attack is planned on commuters during the evening jam. I wonder what Kidero and Sonko think of that. Today's alert reportedly comes from a security company and one of the foreign missions that gave a similar warning just before Garissa attacks, which alert the Men on the Hill promptly dismissed and waited for Garissa to happen. To make matters worse, police are said to be on a go-slow because of some pay issues. Which is surprising because people living in the big city wonder what's new with that. If you go to town regularly these days, you must put your house in order every time you leave, consciously.
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Omollo, I have been reading "A Thousand Hills" documenting Kagame march from Uganda to Rwanda and I now more than ever realize the futulity of our war to liberate Somalia. Without the support of somalis..from NEP to Mogadishu..we are wasting money and time...and lives.
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It is rather obvious that Kenia will be hit again and again. Western capitals too. Nobody is deluding themselves that alqaeda is long dead. But of course we are at a higher risk.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/26/opinions/flynn-livingston-smith-isis-threat/index.html
Fear and anxiety is all but inevitable. They will strike and take down tens of lives..its all about WHEN not IF
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A Civil War has its actors. They change alliances at will and faster than a whore changes panties. It does not matter whether you claim to be "neutral" or partisan, the act of joining it earns you enemies, since any new entrant causes an imbalance to the detriment and gain of certain parties.
When the US entered the fray, Aideed suffered losses as he had to surrender his advantages to the new entrants. The US therefore found herself with a ready-made enemy even if she pretended not to know (or probably was really unaware of). Kenya walked in to a trap. As she joined on the part of the faction in Mogadishu that controlled a very small area, any expansion of that entity means a loss to Al Shabaab.
To become a peace keeper, there has to be peace to keep. That peace is often denoted by a peace agreement to which every MAJOR actor is signed to. The parties must all agree on a roadmap leading to peace. A timetable for disarmament and the demobilization of the existing forces is a must. It costs a lot to undertake disarmament and to demobilize troops. Those youthful soldiers need to be integrated in a national military and an even larger number sent to school, colleges and absorbed in to industry and commerce. That is why one cannot undertake such an enterprise without money. AMISOM is underfunded and founded on the wrong premises. It seeks to make peace and actively makes war against factions not aligned to the one in Mogadishu.
I have met a number of the so called MPs. They are found all over the world and get paid and bribed to elect a "President" and "Prime Minister. They do not believe in the so called government in Somalia. As far as they are concerned it is AMISOM that is the government and the day it gives up is the day Mogadishu is overrun.
The solution would have been to let them fight and the winner tyrannizes over the others. Only later can they make peace - Lebanon style.
Omollo, I have been reading "A Thousand Hills" documenting Kagame march from Uganda to Rwanda and I now more than ever realize the futulity of our war to liberate Somalia. Without the support of somalis..from NEP to Mogadishu..we are wasting money and time...and lives.