Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: TheDayTheDollarDies on October 28, 2014, 08:13:08 AM
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From the recent actions by the pope, it seems, pro-homosexual sentiments have been close at the top than previously thought by some of us. Indeed, there had been romours that the current pope was "understanding" to homosexuality, but at one time you rubbished these romours. Were you shocked by what transpired?
I think at this rate, the Catholic church is headed for a major split in about 15 years time. Faggotry is the devils weapon of choice for this generation.
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I think it should be...when will they publicly admit that they've been secretly practising it for ages. There were popes who were said to be faggot?!
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I think it should be...when will they publicly admit that they've been secretly practising it for ages. There were popes who were said to be faggot?!
Do you have evidence or are you just speaking nonsense?
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Faggots have earn the right to be faggots. So accept and move on. This will become the new normal everywhere.
If you fight hard and strong enough...they will make you part of the system.
Blacks (thro' slavery,colonialism,apartheid,civil rights) and women (feminism movement) fought to be accepted as EQUAL human beings....Gays have done the same...and they are winning i think everywhere.
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From the recent actions by the pope, it seems, pro-homosexual sentiments have been close at the top than previously thought by some of us. Indeed, there had been romours that the current pope was "understanding" to homosexuality, but at one time you rubbished these romours. Were you shocked by what transpired?
I think at this rate, the Catholic church is headed for a major split in about 15 years time. Faggotry is the devils weapon of choice for this generation.
Hey, KD. :) Long time.
Yes, there has been a MAJOR brouhaha all over catholic media in the past 3 weeks over the wording of that "relatio" 2 weeks ago, I have been following it closely.
First of all, forget the Homo stuff. That's going nowhere, it wasn't even part of the synod discussions perse. What happened was that one of the "secretaries", called Forte snuck it into the document without letting the Bishops see it first and then went ahead and released it to the media. So the Bishops were just as shocked as the rest of us that they had said such a thing when they did not. The Pope himself has already said "that is not a marriage", so the idea of homosexuality believe me is nowhere in sight. That ship has sailed. It's not even 15% of Bishops who want it, its more like a very small number of people.
The BIG vita/war going on has nothing to do with homosexuality. It's about the church admitting those catholics who have remarried after divorce back to communion without either:
a) first getting an annulment of their first marriage so that the 2nd marriage can be regularized or
b) committing to abstinence in their second marriage.
The thing is that the church's doctrine is that the 2nd marriage is adultery per the teaching of Christ and St. Paul, and that people who have not repented of mortal sin should not approach communion per St. Paul's words that those who approach communion unworthily bring condemnation upon themselves.
Catholis say this teaching is not reversible because to reverse it would be to purport to correct Christ himself after he revoked the Mosaic allowance for divorce. Cardinal Kasper is proposing that the remarried can be allowed to communion based on some law "of graduality" and basing it on the practice in one of the ancient canons by an early church council and the sayings of a church father called st. Basil, where the canons were accepted by almost 3/4 ecumenical councils. They basically allowed Christians who had entered 2nd marriages after divorce to do penance for a number of years (I think 7) and readmitted them back the regular life of the church. So cardinal Kasper claims there is precedent in the church for this, but most Catholic theologians and Bishops say there is no way to say that without directly disobeying Jesus and the church has no authority to reverse something Jesus himself laid down. That's the big fight, my friend, and believe me it is a biiiiig fight.
Kasperr and his supporters are motivated by the fact that due to decline of Christian culture in the West, many many catholics are now in 2nd marriages which the church calls a state of "public and permanent adultery". Most were not taught anything about their faith and are now just starting to return to the church wanting to be faithful catholic then they discover they are in a very difficult position, because divorcing their current spouse or even ceasing sexual relations is too big a requirement for them. Many of those who want to return to the church have submitted to the annulment tribunals and had their previous marriage annulled, so they are OK. The problem is with those who have gone through the annulment tribunal and their previous marriages are found valid. that means their current marriage is adulterous. So they stay away from communion and cant even get absolution in confession because a requirement for absolution of sins is the intention not to repeat the sin, which they cant of course have as long as they are with their spouses. For African Bishops, their issue is with their flock who are in a polygamous arrangement or come we stay marriage where for one reason or another, the other spouse wont submit to the church's teachings, so the spouses who want to go back to the life of the church are in a difficult position.
This where ALL the war is, not gay stuff. That gay stuff was an attempt by one Bishop to introduce it into the discussion that failed miserably. What it succeeded in doing was create a monumental PR mess that will now take forever to clear up/clarify.
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This where ALL the war is, not gay stuff. That gay stuff was an attempt by one Bishop to introduce it into the discussion that failed miserably. What it succeeded in doing was create a monumental PR mess that will now take forever to clear up/clarify.
Hi KB,
I think the issue of communion for remarried folks is really a difficult part. Or for Africans in polygamous marriages. In addition, the interpretation of what needs to happen after divorce is pretty difficult.
As for the mess created by the secretary, isn't that a Major crime? Shouldn't the secretary be kicked out? Shouldn't the vatican make an unequivocal statement? What's this ambivalence about? What is so hard in the pope issuing a statement that's pretty clear? That faggotry is a despicable sin - no any different from bestiality?
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Faggots have earn the right to be faggots. So accept and move on. This will become the new normal everywhere.
If you fight hard and strong enough...they will make you part of the system.
Blacks (thro' slavery,colonialism,apartheid,civil rights) and women (feminism movement) fought to be accepted as EQUAL human beings....Gays have done the same...and they are winning i think everywhere.
They can fight for as long as they want, but they can never force anyone to "accept them."
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This where ALL the war is, not gay stuff. That gay stuff was an attempt by one Bishop to introduce it into the discussion that failed miserably. What it succeeded in doing was create a monumental PR mess that will now take forever to clear up/clarify.
Hi KB,
I think the issue of communion for remarried folks is really a difficult part. Or for Africans in polygamous marriages. In addition, the interpretation of what needs to happen after divorce is pretty difficult.
As for the mess created by the secretary, isn't that a Major crime? Shouldn't the secretary be kicked out? Shouldn't the vatican make an unequivocal statement? What's this ambivalence about? What is so hard in the pope issuing a statement that's pretty clear? That faggotry is a despicable sin - no any different from bestiality?
Indeed, indeed. You are absolutely right and this chiefly, what you've pointed out, the "ambivalence" is the chief criticism the Pope is receiving from Catholics. They think he wants to be liked by the media, for the adoration he has been receiving from them to continue, so every time he's asked about this issue, he simply says that the church has already taught on the subject and that he does not need to talk about it. One Cardinal Burke said plainly that due to the confusion created by that fiasco all over the world, that the only way to clear it is for the Pope to make a clear and categorical statement restating what is in the catechism, because the synod of bishops issued another statement but it did not reverse the damage, but the Pope has not said anything yet. He makes general comments but always avoids stating particulars and this is what has turned so many Catholics hostile towards him almost overnight, unlike their very respectful attitude towards other Popes and even him (before the synod). They compare him to St. Peter when he tried to please the juddaizers because he was scared of them until St Paul rebuked him to his face. There is also another Pope (Honorius I) in the early church who was anathematized by the church for cowardly giving support to heretics while refusing to publicly support the orthodox position regarding the nature of Christ (2 wills, both divine and human). So you have many catholics all over comparing him to these popes in the past, but he has not indicated that he supports heresy. All his public statements on the question are orthodox, so we may criticize his approach but those calling him heretic are going way too far. What I know is that he has unwittingly set himself up---either himself or his next successor--for a serious media backlash for when he is forced to state the position after the synod next year, because then the world (liberals, to be precise) will feel like he has betrayed them and gone back when he never actually supported their positions in the first place.
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Also, Forte cannot really be punished because the relatio was only a type of "minutes" for the discussions of the first week. So the fact that there was a bishop who spoke of it, either orally or in one of the written speeches they presented, meant technically it can be there in the relatio as a summary of what was said. but the way he presented it made it look like it was a major discussion and then they mistranslated it in the English and made it look much more gay-friendly that it was in Italian. The secretaries were asked and they clarified these were not conclusions but a summary of discussions/debates, so you cant punish him for doing a shody-minutes taking job. Also, the Pope had said no one should be censured, let evey bishop speak freely in the synod, so again you cant exactly punish him for that. My issue is why on earth they were releasing those unofficial "summaries" in the first place (without the bishops' knowledge) instead of waiting for the synod's final document to be released. In any case, the Pope from the end of the synod and now on his trip to Asia has been speaking more clearly than he has been in his pontificate and I think he is finally starting to appreciate how delicately he must handle himself, he's not the Archbishop of Buenos Aires any more. :D
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From the recent actions by the pope, it seems, pro-homosexual sentiments have been close at the top than previously thought by some of us. Indeed, there had been romours that the current pope was "understanding" to homosexuality, but at one time you rubbished these romours. Were you shocked by what transpired?
I think at this rate, the Catholic church is headed for a major split in about 15 years time. Faggotry is the devils weapon of choice for this generation.
I have been getting bits and pieces of that from surprised and shocked Catholics. That gay piece, rather harmlessly, recognizing them as humans with gifts raised a lot of whispers in this particularly conservative circle of mine.
The problem, as I see it, is not so much a split as a continued decline in membership. Especially in the west. When people opt for practical solutions in the face of a religion that won't let go off the dark ages.
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KD, read this for example, notice the pope's language: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/what-is-being-proposed-is-not-marriage-pope-calls-for-defense-of-family-12766/
It's also false that the gay comment recognized gays as "humans with gifts". That was not at all the problem and would not have been new either if that is what was actually stated. It's right in the Catechism. Gay PEOPLE are valued, gay ACTS declared sinful, and gay ORIENTATION considered disordered. The thing that catholics found troubling was that the relatio said that Gay people should be valued for their orientation, instead of simply for being human. It was basically saying the orientation is something good in itself. That was the problem . The funny thing about decline in membership in the West, a problem that affects liberal-leaning churches much MUCH more than anyone, while dark ages groups/churches/religions/convents continue to gain membership. An interesting phenomenon. German Cardinals are pushing for this nonsense because they tax catholics 9% of their income and many are leaving because the church is busy taxing them while not teaching them anything. Instead of evaluating their hefty incomes they want to evaluate the faith, strange people, these Germans. :-\
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All his public statements on the question are orthodox, so we may criticize his approach but those calling him heretic are going way too far. What I know is that he has unwittingly set himself up---either himself or his next successor--for a serious media backlash for when he is forced to state the position after the synod next year, because then the world (liberals, to be precise) will feel like he has betrayed them and gone back when he never actually supported their positions in the first place.
When people realize that you are not appeasing the "Liberals" or the "media" but you're actually in a war with the devil himself, is the day they'll stop appeasing them
I agree with the "teaching"as a response to ealing with a declining membership. @Terminator - the decline in church membership is simply because people no longer see Jesus in the church especially the liberal church. The Quakers, who were a backbone of US civilization, are now a tiny minority after embracing homosexuality. today, Kenya has the highest population of quackers in the world. This is why people are joining Islam in droves especially in wetestern countries. And even if the leave, the Bible is clear
2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.
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All his public statements on the question are orthodox, so we may criticize his approach but those calling him heretic are going way too far. What I know is that he has unwittingly set himself up---either himself or his next successor--for a serious media backlash for when he is forced to state the position after the synod next year, because then the world (liberals, to be precise) will feel like he has betrayed them and gone back when he never actually supported their positions in the first place.
When people realize that you are not appeasing the "Liberals" or the "media" but you're actually in a war with the devil himself, is the day they'll stop appeasing them
I agree with the "teaching"as a response to ealing with a declining membership. @Terminator - the decline in church membership is simply because people no longer see Jesus in the church especially the liberal church. The Quakers, who were a backbone of US civilization, are now a tiny minority after embracing homosexuality. today, Kenya has the highest population of quackers in the world. This is why people are joining Islam in droves especially in wetestern countries. And even if the leave, the Bible is clear
2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.
It's a myth commonly perpetrated by liberals who actually know very little about the situation of religions in terms of statistics and particulars. All one needs do is look at Episcopalians and Methodists, they will no longer exist in the West in the next 10-20 years, because all their membership consists of old people who are already dying off. These are supposed to be the "guiding lights" for other religions to follow, having thrown away all their beliefs about morals. If there is anything constant that's been proven in the last 40 years, if a religion is interested in committing suicide, turning liberal is the quickest and most efficient way to do it. Even in Catholic groups, liberals ones are dying completely, with members no younger than 70. All the young membership of the church comes from congregations that would be considered conservative or even ultratraditionalist. The same is replicated among Protestant groups. A very interesting phenomenon indeed.
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All his public statements on the question are orthodox, so we may criticize his approach but those calling him heretic are going way too far. What I know is that he has unwittingly set himself up---either himself or his next successor--for a serious media backlash for when he is forced to state the position after the synod next year, because then the world (liberals, to be precise) will feel like he has betrayed them and gone back when he never actually supported their positions in the first place.
When people realize that you are not appeasing the "Liberals" or the "media" but you're actually in a war with the devil himself, is the day they'll stop appeasing them
I agree with the "teaching"as a response to ealing with a declining membership. @Terminator - the decline in church membership is simply because people no longer see Jesus in the church especially the liberal church. The Quakers, who were a backbone of US civilization, are now a tiny minority after embracing homosexuality. today, Kenya has the highest population of quackers in the world. This is why people are joining Islam in droves especially in wetestern countries. And even if the leave, the Bible is clear
2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.
That isn't what I meant. Though some fundamentalist might certainly see it that way.
I meant situations like a person divorced and happily remarried with a family. The old spouse also remarried with separate family. That such an arrangement can be frowned upon on the whims of medieval logic. Some people will take the sensible approach.
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First and foremost you need to stop calling homesexuals faggots. It just shows how much hate you have for fellow humanbeings whose only crime is that they are different from you. The catholic church and the christian protestant conservative fundamentalists hypocrites will soon have to swallow their pride and accept homesexuals. Catholics will probably lead the way with a major change in their theological teachings. Its been done before with slaves and I saw the shift that American conservative fundamentalist did with the state of Isreal and now they are the most rabid supporters of the Israeli state even more than the zionists themselves. The catholic church must make the move now and the rest of the christian protestant conservatives will follow later in this gay issue.
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All his public statements on the question are orthodox, so we may criticize his approach but those calling him heretic are going way too far. What I know is that he has unwittingly set himself up---either himself or his next successor--for a serious media backlash for when he is forced to state the position after the synod next year, because then the world (liberals, to be precise) will feel like he has betrayed them and gone back when he never actually supported their positions in the first place.
When people realize that you are not appeasing the "Liberals" or the "media" but you're actually in a war with the devil himself, is the day they'll stop appeasing them
I agree with the "teaching"as a response to ealing with a declining membership. @Terminator - the decline in church membership is simply because people no longer see Jesus in the church especially the liberal church. The Quakers, who were a backbone of US civilization, are now a tiny minority after embracing homosexuality. today, Kenya has the highest population of quackers in the world. This is why people are joining Islam in droves especially in wetestern countries. And even if the leave, the Bible is clear
2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.
That isn't what I meant. Though some fundamentalist might certainly see it that way.
I meant situations like a person divorced and happily remarried with a family. The old spouse also remarried with separate family. That such an arrangement can be frowned upon on the whims of medieval logic. Some people will take the sensible approach.
The issue of divorce is pretty difficult. Unlike vooke's church of 50 people where the good pastor can ignore such a thing as he prays about it, the Catholic church doesn't have this liberty. It's not like contaceptives where you teach what you believe and people do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their homes, but this is actually a case of if you allow people who are living an adulterous life to partake the communion, (that's the interpretation of many churches.) Now, at what point do you stop?
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First and foremost you need to stop calling homesexuals faggots. It just shows how much hate you have for fellow humanbeings whose only crime is that they are different from you. The catholic church and the christian protestant conservative fundamentalists hypocrites will soon have to swallow their pride and accept homesexuals. Catholics will probably lead the way with a major change in their theological teachings. Its been done before with slaves and I saw the shift that American conservative fundamentalist did with the state of Isreal and now they are the most rabid supporters of the Israeli state even more than the zionists themselves. The catholic church must make the move now and the rest of the christian protestant conservatives will follow later in this gay issue.
The catholic church is engaged in a serious battle over the mere question of admitting remarried catholics to communion--something other churches already accepted decades ago, and here you are waiting for them to accept that homosexuality is ok. You will be waiting a long time.
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First and foremost you need to stop calling homesexuals faggots. It just shows how much hate you have for fellow humanbeings whose only crime is that they are different from you. The catholic church and the christian protestant conservative fundamentalists hypocrites will soon have to swallow their pride and accept homesexuals. Catholics will probably lead the way with a major change in their theological teachings. Its been done before with slaves and I saw the shift that American conservative fundamentalist did with the state of Isreal and now they are the most rabid supporters of the Israeli state even more than the zionists themselves. The catholic church must make the move now and the rest of the christian protestant conservatives will follow later in this gay issue.
Why MUST the Catholic church make this fundamental shift? This is what i don't understand with liberals. How come you've never said, MUSLIMS MUST make this fundamental shift? If you believe faggotry is cool, okay, and something to be celebrated; why must you force other people to accept it? So much for tolerance.
What makes people HATE everything to do with homosexuality, has little to do with what they do in their privacy, but what they are forcing us to "accept" and "celebrate." They took a great word, - "gay" and turned it into something evil. It would have been better if they stuck to queer. That's why i still use faggot. I think the dictionary says it's ok
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First and foremost you need to stop calling homesexuals faggots. It just shows how much hate you have for fellow humanbeings whose only crime is that they are different from you. The catholic church and the christian protestant conservative fundamentalists hypocrites will soon have to swallow their pride and accept homesexuals. Catholics will probably lead the way with a major change in their theological teachings. Its been done before with slaves and I saw the shift that American conservative fundamentalist did with the state of Isreal and now they are the most rabid supporters of the Israeli state even more than the zionists themselves. The catholic church must make the move now and the rest of the christian protestant conservatives will follow later in this gay issue.
Why MUST the Catholic church make this fundamental shift? This is what i don't understand with liberals. How come you've never said, MUSLIMS MUST make this fundamental shift? If you believe faggotry is cool, okay, and something to be celebrated; why must you force other people to accept it? So much for tolerance.
I have always wondered myself. Apparently, religions are supposed to obey the tenets of secular-humanism, a religion in its own right if you look at it properly, and they are to disregard their own faith wherever it clashes with what this movement believes. Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!
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When people realize that you are not appeasing the "Liberals" or the "media" but you're actually in a war with the devil himself, is the day they'll stop appeasing them
I agree with the "teaching"as a response to ealing with a declining membership. @Terminator - the decline in church membership is simply because people no longer see Jesus in the church especially the liberal church. The Quakers, who were a backbone of US civilization, are now a tiny minority after embracing homosexuality. today, Kenya has the highest population of quackers in the world. This is why people are joining Islam in droves especially in wetestern countries. And even if the leave, the Bible is clear
2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.
That isn't what I meant. Though some fundamentalist might certainly see it that way.
I meant situations like a person divorced and happily remarried with a family. The old spouse also remarried with separate family. That such an arrangement can be frowned upon on the whims of medieval logic. Some people will take the sensible approach.
The issue of divorce is pretty difficult. Unlike vooke's church of 50 people where the good pastor can ignore such a thing as he prays about it, the Catholic church doesn't have this liberty. It's not like contaceptives where you teach what you believe and people do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their homes, but this is actually a case of if you allow people who are living an adulterous life to partake the communion, (that's the interpretation of many churches.) Now, at what point do you stop?
That is my point. When the partaking in communion conflicts with your family's well being. When you are told you are living in sin because you quit a failed marriage and opted for something more wholesome. With a family to boot.
I like to think the choice is straightforward for those inclined to cater to the interests of the family.
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We are secular society...so once we decide that blacks are human..that women are equal to men...that gays are also humans..it become very hard for church to operate against that.
The society [secular] will have to come hard on the church if they were to openly discriminate or spread hate against gays.DailyDollar cannot dare repeat his homophobia in US because he will feel the pain.
That day is coming soon and has already arrived in developed world. You'll not be able to hide behind the bible...to perpetuate hate. The Gov will be forced to declare you a hateful group, deny you any public incentive (like no taxation, ability to ran schools, deal with kids) and even de-register you.
In short the secular society will win. Only those days when pope was gov would catholic afford to be aloof to what is happening in their societies.The Anglican church has read this correctly.Gays have won their rights and freedoms to be treated with dignity.
Regarding Middle east and Islam....those guys are in dire need of first generation human rights and freedom..leave alone these new rights...the right to chose your sexual orientation.
I have always wondered myself. Apparently, religions are supposed to obey the tenets of secular-humanism, a religion in its own right if you look at it properly, and they are to disregard their own faith wherever it clashes with what this movement believes. Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!
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The issue of divorce is pretty difficult. Unlike vooke's church of 50 people where the good pastor can ignore such a thing as he prays about it, the Catholic church doesn't have this liberty. It's not like contaceptives where you teach what you believe and people do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their homes, but this is actually a case of if you allow people who are living an adulterous life to partake the communion, (that's the interpretation of many churches.) Now, at what point do you stop?
Indeed. What is actually difficult about the whole thing is the definition of a sacramental marriage. The church's teaching has always distinguished between sacramental marriages and merely natural marriages. Sacramental marriage is what happens between two Christians and is permanent, relflecting and continuing Christ's marriage to the church. Just as Christ can never leave the church, neither can a Christian leave their spouse. Natural marriage, between two non-Christians or between a Christian and a non-Christian can be dissolved in some instances (read 1st Corinthians 7, st paul) and the Christian can remarry later, or if the non-Christian later becomes Christian after remarrying, then that's considered ok.
The actual point of contention is basically who counts as "Christian". The church has always taught that its anybody that's been baptized. Now many catholics who are following what Cardinal Kasper is proposing are of the view that mere baptism without faith should not be considered enough for a new covenant marriage to result. Many of the catholics now wanting to return to the church were baptized as children or even as teenagers but were never actually taught their faith. Most catholics know very little of their faith. So they left the church, did their thing, and have only rediscovered their faith much later while already in 2nd marriages. Some people are suggesting that their former marriages should not be considered sacramental because they were not really believers anyway, despite their baptism.
Another solution that was suggested by former pope (Benedict xvi) is that the lack of faith during the vows can be seen to diminish their consent so that a valid marriage does not result. For example, due to the present culture, many people while getting married do not actually intend to commit for life, they are of the view that if they find difficulties, they can divorce and remarry and that's ok. they don't intend to divorce but they also don't really intend a Christian commitment. So the pope suggested it was possible they could get annullments of marriages contracted like so and that the annulment process should itself be less formal/judicial, more pastoral where the bishop and some priests can evaluate the situation in a confessional-like setting and give the dispensation.
Cardinal Kasper's suggestion is controversial because without annullments, they would be permitted communion, which seems to question the teaching on permanent marriage or the teaching on communion. So the solution bishops finally agreed on and voted to be discussed in the next synod was that in some circumstances, especially where the situation seems irreversible and children are involved, the person might be allowed communion based on the notion that they may not be personally guilty of mortal sin, especially if they entered the 2nd marriage under the belief that they were not doing anything wrong. This latter is what will be discussed in the next synod.
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RVP, what do you mean by saying "we are a secular society." As Kababe has told you, not everyone is a secularist since Secularism is nothing more than a religion of Hate. You're living in your bubble. According to you In Kenya if we were to do a referendum, I'm sure according to your superb analytic skills, we'll have over 96% supporting faggots. Faggots and their supporters always try to win arguments with lies. A super Majority of the world consider homosexuality as irredeemably repulsive. Just because Europe and a half of the US population condones faggotry, doesn't mean that the world has accepted homosexuality. You need to decolonise your mind and move the centre. Ngugi wa Thiong's collection of essays by the same title is a good place to start.
second, there's nothing like homophobia. It's just another politically correct term to label people who oppose faggotry. Liberals, if they can't beat you will label you. So what is the meaning of Homophobia? Islamophobia? What is the fear of Pedophiles called? What about the hatred for Christianity - I think the liberals should get a good name to label you for your constant fear of Christianity.
Lastly, what serious trouble did Ben Phelps get for this campaign? Please not the "Do not cross police line " barrier. How come he was never arrested. Please use facts.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/BenPhelps.JPG)
(http://static.godhatesfags.com/photos/jewsandisrael.jpg)
They have a website - http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Now, report them to the FBI
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We are secular society...so once we decide that blacks are human..that women are equal to men...that gays are also humans..it become very hard for church to operate against that.
The society [secular] will have to come hard on the church if they were to openly discriminate or spread hate against gays.DailyDollar cannot dare repeat his homophobia in US because he will feel the pain.
That day is coming soon and has already arrived in developed world. You'll not be able to hide behind the bible...to perpetuate hate. The Gov will be forced to declare you a hateful group, deny you any public incentive (like no taxation, ability to ran schools, deal with kids) and even de-register you.
In short the secular society will win. Only those days when pope was gov would catholic afford to be aloof to what is happening in their societies.The Anglican church has read this correctly.Gays have won their rights and freedoms to be treated with dignity.
Regarding Middle east and Islam....those guys are in dire need of first generation human rights and freedom..leave alone these new rights...the right to chose your sexual orientation.
I have always wondered myself. Apparently, religions are supposed to obey the tenets of secular-humanism, a religion in its own right if you look at it properly, and they are to disregard their own faith wherever it clashes with what this movement believes. Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!
None of those things (blacks are human, women and men are equal) have forced the church to change her doctrines, this gay thing is of a whole different order. Besides, the church does not ordain women and she still survives, and the church condemned the trans-Atlantic slave trade from its beginning and taught that Indians and Africans were human. The gay thing will not be accepted and the church will survive. It will not be the first time she must live in a hostile environment. Powerful movements have come and gone, more powerful than this 3-decade old movement, lasted far longer, even centuries, and the church outlived them all. :D
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You just talked like Vera Sidika
She wondered why her haterz was so worried with her bleach instead of watching it backfire and them having the last laugh. Declining influence of Christianity is probably some consolation agnostics and atheists cling to when they have nothing else to support them. But personally from my study of scriptures, the church is only postponing the inevitable; we are hurtling towards evil,wickedness and blasphemy. Fatalism I stand accused but it is a reality
Homosexuality is largely a cultural issue and that's why America frowns at polygamy. may be in the next 50 years, we will have animal husbandry as an agenda. Is it really wrong to have sex with a dog? Nobody gets hurt any way, spares you Ebola and HIV. Not far fetched
Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!
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Apart from Vatican and islamic states; the rest of world is secular; we depend on constitution and laws to define right and wrong;not the bible;Gays have won secular rights in many countries including in south africa;That protect them from hateful people like you;There is nothing you can do to gays in south africa, US and pretty much western world and part of Asia. You dare only use the word faggot here. In couple more yrs they will win in Africa as more people become informed,travel and realize gays are not harming anybody; that gays are our brothers and sisters; our friends;
No need to hate gays. Hate criminals.What will you do when you son or daughter turn out gay?
RVP, what do you mean by saying "we are a secular society." As Kababe has told you, not everyone is a secularist since Secularism is nothing more than a religion of Hate. You're living in your bubble. According to you In Kenya if we were to do a referendum, I'm sure according to your superb analytic skills, we'll have over 96% supporting faggots. Faggots and their supporters always try to win arguments with lies. A super Majority of the world consider homosexuality as irredeemably repulsive. Just because Europe and a half of the US population condones faggotry, doesn't mean that the world has accepted homosexuality. You need to decolonise your mind and move the centre. Ngugi wa Thiong's collection of essays by the same title is a good place to start.
second, there's nothing like homophobia. It's just another politically correct term to label people who oppose faggotry. Liberals, if they can't beat you will label you. So what is the meaning of Homophobia? Islamophobia? What is the fear of Pedophiles called? What about the hatred for Christianity - I think the liberals should get a good name to label you for your constant fear of Christianity.
Lastly, what serious trouble did Ben Phelps get for this campaign? Please not the "Do not cross police line " barrier. How come he was never arrested. Please use facts.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/BenPhelps.JPG)
They have a website - http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Now, report them to the FBI
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:roll: :roll: Ati animal husbandry? That is funny! :D Actually, you are right. The tide is certainly headed that way.
You just talked like Vera Sidika
She wondered why her haterz was so worried with her bleach instead of watching it backfire and them having the last laugh. Declining influence of Christianity is probably some consolation agnostics and atheists cling to when they have nothing else to support them. But personally from my study of scriptures, the church is only postponing the inevitable; we are hurtling towards evil,wickedness and blasphemy. Fatalism I stand accused but it is a reality
Homosexuality is largely a cultural issue and that's why America frowns at polygamy. may be in the next 50 years, we will have animal husbandry as an agenda. Is it really wrong to have sex with a dog? Nobody gets hurt any way, spares you Ebola and HIV. Not far fetched
Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!
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You just talked like Vera Sidika
She wondered why her haterz was so worried with her bleach instead of watching it backfire and them having the last laugh. Declining influence of Christianity is probably some consolation agnostics and atheists cling to when they have nothing else to support them. But personally from my study of scriptures, the church is only postponing the inevitable; we are hurtling towards evil,wickedness and blasphemy. Fatalism I stand accused but it is a reality
Homosexuality is largely a cultural issue and that's why America frowns at polygamy. may be in the next 50 years, we will have animal husbandry as an agenda. Is it really wrong to have sex with a dog? Nobody gets hurt any way, spares you Ebola and HIV. Not far fetched
Very strange. You are right. You will find them preaching in Africa that we must accept gays, which of course we should, but they wouldn't be caught dead saying so in Saudi Arabia where they cut off the heads of gay people, or in Iran where they hang them. The thing I most hate about liberals, despite a lot of convergence I have with them on many issues, is this hypocritical double standard. After all, if the church's teaching will lead her to become extinct, what is it to you? Why does that bother you? Should you not be happy and let it die a natural death? And why is it so painful that she believes what she does? Shouldn't you just ignore it and be at peace in your gay marriage? But nooo, you have pressure groups trying to force religions to disbelieve their own faith and accept some modernist clap trap. Such hubris!
People are going to talk about religion because it is part of the culture. A huge part.
The only constant is change. One may try to keep up. But at some point, it is inevitable that in the future people will read about us like a bad joke from the neolithic.
There was a time it was laughable to suggest that the Negro was more than 1/3rd human or something along those lines.
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Apart from Vatican and islamic states; the rest of world is secular; we depend on constitution and laws to define right and wrong;not the bible;Gays have won secular rights in many countries including in south africa;That protect them from hateful people like you;There is nothing you can do to gays in south africa, US and pretty much western world and part of Asia. You dare only use the word faggot here. In couple more yrs they will win in Africa as more people become informed,travel and realize gays are not harming anybody; that gays are our brothers and sisters; our friends;
No need to hate gays. Hate criminals.What will you do when you son or daughter turn out gay?
RVP, what do you mean by saying "we are a secular society." As Kababe has told you, not everyone is a secularist since Secularism is nothing more than a religion of Hate. You're living in your bubble. According to you In Kenya if we were to do a referendum, I'm sure according to your superb analytic skills, we'll have over 96% supporting faggots. Faggots and their supporters always try to win arguments with lies. A super Majority of the world consider homosexuality as irredeemably repulsive. Just because Europe and a half of the US population condones faggotry, doesn't mean that the world has accepted homosexuality. You need to decolonise your mind and move the centre. Ngugi wa Thiong's collection of essays by the same title is a good place to start.
second, there's nothing like homophobia. It's just another politically correct term to label people who oppose faggotry. Liberals, if they can't beat you will label you. So what is the meaning of Homophobia? Islamophobia? What is the fear of Pedophiles called? What about the hatred for Christianity - I think the liberals should get a good name to label you for your constant fear of Christianity.
Lastly, what serious trouble did Ben Phelps get for this campaign? Please not the "Do not cross police line " barrier. How come he was never arrested. Please use facts.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/BenPhelps.JPG)
They have a website - http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Now, report them to the FBI
I showed you a photo of people using the word "Faggots" in front of cops - in the US. So what happened to them? "WE" are NOT defined by a written constitution. What about countries that do not have written constitutions, how are they defined? So African societies din't exist because they never had constitutions?
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Well seem like protected speech...you can call somebody nigga and get away with it..but be careful because your boss or sponsor or customer might be gay and they wouldn't like.For the polemics regarding how societies are defined...i think you're on slippery slope.
The right to a sexual orientation of your liking is pretty much a settled issue in advanced societies. Both sides have argued but end of the day...people realized gays were harmless...and were granted rights against being discriminated.
This will eventually happen in Kenya. I use to be hostile to gays but nowadays i realized i was wrong. Those guys are not affecting my life in anyway.
I showed you a photo of people using the word "Faggots" in front of cops - in the US. So what happened to them? "WE" are NOT defined by a written constitution. What about countries that do not have written constitutions, how are they defined? So African societies din't exist because they never had constitutions?
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Well seem like protected speech...you can call somebody nigga and get away with it..but be careful because your boss or sponsor or customer might be gay and they wouldn't like.For the polemics regarding how societies are defined...i think you're on slippery slope.
The right to a sexual orientation of your liking is pretty much a settled issue in advanced societies. Both sides have argued but end of the day...people realized gays were harmless...and were granted rights against being discriminated.
This will eventually happen in Kenya. I use to be hostile to gays but nowadays i realized i was wrong. Those guys are not affecting my life in anyway.
I showed you a photo of people using the word "Faggots" in front of cops - in the US. So what happened to them? "WE" are NOT defined by a written constitution. What about countries that do not have written constitutions, how are they defined? So African societies din't exist because they never had constitutions?
In fact if your image is caught in one of those pics, you are out of a job unless you are self employed. No ifs or buts. The beauty of capitalist friendly USA.
I still see some use for the church in poorer countries. Because they provide some badly needed services. But as the countries get wealthier, they will go the way of the rest of the developed world.
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Binyavanga was in toronto gay parade dressed as woman
http://www.ghafla.co.ke/news/fashion/item/25783-fashion-disaster-binyavanga-steps-out-in-a-tulle-skirt-and-fur-photos
Meanwhile just found out one of my fav actor is gay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris#mediaviewer/File:DavidBurtkaNeilPatrickHarrisHWOFSept2011.jpg
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I am very conservative on some issues such as gun control and therefore I do not buy into the silly labels. The same christian church once upon a time believed that slavery of black people was consistent with christian teachings. They have changed their minds and that is why I expect them to change their minds. The same christian church believed that the Jewish people were christ killers and most of the Nazis were good christians. That has since changed. Sometimes the church follows the circular culture and I think in the case of homo-sexuality they will. This is a human rights issue and not dependent of religion just like FGM, child labor, apartheid, colonialism and other forms discrimination. Nobody is asking the catholic church or you to celebrate gay people, just let them enjoy the rights of full-citizenry and stay away from them if you wish.
Why MUST the Catholic church make this fundamental shift? This is what i don't understand with liberals. How come you've never said, MUSLIMS MUST make this fundamental shift? If you believe faggotry is cool, okay, and something to be celebrated; why must you force other people to accept it? So much for tolerance.
What makes people HATE everything to do with homosexuality, has little to do with what they do in their privacy, but what they are forcing us to "accept" and "celebrate." They took a great word, - "gay" and turned it into something evil. It would have been better if they stuck to queer. That's why i still use faggot. I think the dictionary says it's ok
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The same christian church once upon a time believed that slavery of black people was consistent with christian teachings. They have changed their minds and that is why I expect them to change their minds. The same christian church believed that the Jewish people were christ killers and most of the Nazis were good christians. That has since changed. Sometimes the church follows the circular culture and I think in the case of homo-sexuality they will. This is a human rights issue and not dependent of religion just like FGM, child labor, apartheid, colonialism and other forms discrimination. Nobody is asking the catholic church or you to celebrate gay people, just let them enjoy the rights of full-citizenry and stay away from them if you wish.
Yeah right. This movement is not satisfied with Christians staying away from gays. They are interested in everybody affirming it as correct, anything short of that is unacceptable. Soon the church will be having semi-martyrs being imprisoned for teaching that homosexual sex is a sin in some Western countries. We are already waiting for this to happen, some of our saints even prophesied it, lol! The Church was the first Western institution including governments to condemn the trans-atlantic slave trade and enslavement of Indians and Africans. Sure many catholics participated in it, but we have several papal bulls right from 1600s when the trade started condemning it and demanding the emancipation of enslaved Africans and Indians, one even demanded full monetary compensation to be paid to them. So as far as I know, the church never taught that enslaving Africans was compatible with christianity. The slavery the church was ambiguous with was the inter-religious kind in the middle ages, between Muslims and Christians, during the crusades, they used to enslave each other's soldiers/prisoners of war. The idea that Nazis were considered good Christians is a serious figment of some people's imagination. Apart from Germans themselves I don't know who else on the planet considered Nazis good Christians or even Christian at all. :o
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Binyavanga was in toronto gay parade dressed as woman
http://www.ghafla.co.ke/news/fashion/item/25783-fashion-disaster-binyavanga-steps-out-in-a-tulle-skirt-and-fur-photos
Meanwhile just found out one of my fav actor is gay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris#mediaviewer/File:DavidBurtkaNeilPatrickHarrisHWOFSept2011.jpg
The actor I was quite surprised to learn was gay, Ian McKellen. If you've seen X-Men or Lord of the Rings, he's the guy who plays Magnito and Gandalf. A fantastic actor. :D
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I am very conservative on some issues such as gun control and therefore I do not buy into the silly labels. The same christian church once upon a time believed that slavery of black people was consistent with christian teachings. They have changed their minds and that is why I expect them to change their minds. The same christian church believed that the Jewish people were christ killers and most of the Nazis were good christians. That has since changed. Sometimes the church follows the circular culture and I think in the case of homo-sexuality they will. This is a human rights issue and not dependent of religion just like FGM, child labor, apartheid, colonialism and other forms discrimination. Nobody is asking the catholic church or you to celebrate gay people, just let them enjoy the rights of full-citizenry and stay away from them if you wish.
Why MUST the Catholic church make this fundamental shift? This is what i don't understand with liberals. How come you've never said, MUSLIMS MUST make this fundamental shift? If you believe faggotry is cool, okay, and something to be celebrated; why must you force other people to accept it? So much for tolerance.
What makes people HATE everything to do with homosexuality, has little to do with what they do in their privacy, but what they are forcing us to "accept" and "celebrate." They took a great word, - "gay" and turned it into something evil. It would have been better if they stuck to queer. That's why i still use faggot. I think the dictionary says it's ok
The current Catholic church will not recognize the gay rights they are demanding. That email of the church merely mentioning that gays are humans with gifts, raised quite a few whispers. And these are laity. If you are gay and Catholic, you want to suck it in, "live in sin" or wake up, and live unshackled by such views.
I can see them having clout in places like Africa where they add value to people's lives. To be fair, I am not a big fan of gays. But I recognize they are entitled to live in an environment that is not oppressive.
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Is it possible to have this discussion without the use of "faggots", which to many is a very offensive word? Exactly what purpose is served by the vile expressions of hatred that are to be found on this thread?
As for the "Christian view", some random thoughts:
* The only places where the "Christian Church" is growing is in places like Africa and the rest of the desperate world. Those who violently shoved Christianity down our throats appear to be moving on. Apparently those who were found in "darkness" are the only ones to be left in "darkness". There is no shortage there of folks whose only hope is another world to come.
* A place like the US South is very interesting. That's where the real die-hard Bible-thumpers are to be found in that country, and their "leaders" sin even more than the "sinners"----money, luxury, kuma. The Swaggarts, the Bakers, and the like. All the wild railing against "sinners" makes one wonder what the "railers" are trying to "detract" themselves from ...
Even in places like Kenya and other parts of Africa, if you want to enjoy those things---money, luxury, kuma---the best thing to do is to start a "church" (or go into big-time politics). And business is booming: in places like Nigeria, the fastest growing class of millionaires---real millionaires---is that of "the servants of the lord".
* The "Catholic Church", which apparently doesn't know the meaning of the word "catholic" is especially funny in their view of the Pope fellow. The history of the "church" is full of Popes who were leaders in all sorts of excesses---sexual debauchery, innumerable murders, political shenanigans, money-grabbing ... you name it---that made Caligula look like today's Boy Scout. (Time permitting, if the True Believers so wish, I will provide a summary as to which Pope did what.) The papal history is so colourful that according to Seventh-Day-Adventist theology, the Pope is none other than the Devil's personal representative on earth: SDA literature carefully and in detail "explains" why he is the "Beast With 7 Heads and Ten Horns" in the Book of Daniel ... and as part of their "proof", there is the papal history. Oh, the Pope and all those Top Catholic folks are always men? Are the women like "homosexuals"?
Oh ... for now we'll skip The Inquisition, which today would put the Pope in the ICC dock, for crimes against humanity.
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Moon Ki
It is the reason I failed to contribute to it. We have advertisers and this can hit this site very hard. I think I am Moderator only in name so I remained powerless to edit away the offense. I think this must be rectified before we get in to the TOOP trouble.