Author Topic: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .  (Read 7607 times)

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2021, 03:24:33 PM »
To be fair, the West also prolly contributed to some of our stability that we've had (generally) on the continent starting in the 2,000s with their political interventions and their aid towards people (health, food aid etc); I shouldn't just focus on what they DIDN'T do. I just think if they truly lived up to their stated ideals, they would've invested their capital accordingly. They didn't even need to be saints to do that. An Africa that provides a huge market is great for them too, even if a totally poor Africa that gives away its resources for almost nothing is better for their pockets.

So for me - it simple cut trees first - grow your food - transition into factory jobs - and then re-plant trees.
If the world was more invested in long-term sustainability without neglecting any segment of the human population, we wouldn't even need to go as far as Europe did. I'm thinking like the problem, for example, of land, conservation and human development in places like Kwinya. If we could reclaim the drier areas and conserve the forested areas, move our people out, we could both develop and protect our nature/wildlife at the same time. But we can't, because we lack capital (wealth, as you put it), and because the world still thinks in a selfish-individualist way, each country and region has to operate as if they cannot rely on anyone else, so here we are, with only one model that is rather destructive.

The problem we have had is laying the basis for development. I.e. Political stability, a population that can provide suitable labor (healthy, fed, and well-educated/trained), and infrastructure that connects resources, manufacturing, and markets both within countries and regions as well as globally i.e. NON-colonial infrastructure that serves the growth of the local economies and not simply extraction of resources FROM them. All that 'laying-the-foundation' work, unfortunately, is capital-intensive, and the ONE thing poor, ex-colonies have never had is capital.

But if those with capital (rich countries and their financial corporations) refuse to invest it for that foundational work, we don't get to the next layer of industrial investors and others. No one is using his money to invest in a place without stability, adequate infrastructure, or suitable labor, or that makes ANYTHING other than resource-extraction (through dubious means) too expensive/cumbersome.

Not only have we had to spend decades finding basic stability within the colonial experiments we call our modern states since independence, the West also saddled us with horrendous debts during that time that were utterly NOT geared in any way towards development but maximizing profits for Western financial institutions with the approval/aid of our local corrupt despots. They were basically loan-sharking us while saying we were too risky for those other more helpful capital-intensive investments (besides basic needs). So while the West has done some good for us, and it is good to be fair to them, it has kept us from developing due to selfishness and because the world will not co-operate, poor countries will follow the 'destroy-first/build-later' model which in the modern age is entirely unnecessary and so destructive. But what else do we do in this uncooperative world? I value both the earth and human development, and I don't see any other way and that makes me truly sad because I know it's not necessary.

Btw, Africa needs to force some kind of international action against Japan and the U.S. to save our elephants. (Edit! I need to check if Biden maintained Trump's policy re ivory before I add the U.S. to Japan on the dock as the second defendant  :D)

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2021, 04:58:29 PM »
Precisely. Poor nations and families have Labour and Land. The rich have capital. How do we grow without capital? We have to sell our labour, till our land and finally when we are rich enough; we can think about sustainable development; because it's expensive.

Poverty is not restricted to lack of food or shelter only; it include lack of good enviroment/climate . It way west of Nairobi has trees - East of Nairobi doesn't.

Nowadays in my place - the best marker to tell poor and rich family is to just look at the trees - rich families can afford to keep trees for long time - the poor are selling them before they are even 10yrs. Most of their land is barren - I mean any vegetation - they sell it as soon as possibe.

I say fight poverty first - then deal with these other issues.

Those rich enough should save the planet. But leave us alone to get out poverty without burdening us with sustainable development and climate change...those things are expensive for poor countries.

To be fair, the West also prolly contributed to some of our stability that we've had (generally) on the continent starting in the 2,000s with their political interventions and their aid towards people (health, food aid etc); I shouldn't just focus on what they DIDN'T do. I just think if they truly lived up to their stated ideals, they would've invested their capital accordingly. They didn't even need to be saints to do that. An Africa that provides a huge market is great for them too, even if a totally poor Africa that gives away its resources for almost nothing is better for their pockets.

So for me - it simple cut trees first - grow your food - transition into factory jobs - and then re-plant trees.
If the world was more invested in long-term sustainability without neglecting any segment of the human population, we wouldn't even need to go as far as Europe did. I'm thinking like the problem, for example, of land, conservation and human development in places like Kwinya. If we could reclaim the drier areas and conserve the forested areas, move our people out, we could both develop and protect our nature/wildlife at the same time. But we can't, because we lack capital (wealth, as you put it), and because the world still thinks in a selfish-individualist way, each country and region has to operate as if they cannot rely on anyone else, so here we are, with only one model that is rather destructive.

The problem we have had is laying the basis for development. I.e. Political stability, a population that can provide suitable labor (healthy, fed, and well-educated/trained), and infrastructure that connects resources, manufacturing, and markets both within countries and regions as well as globally i.e. NON-colonial infrastructure that serves the growth of the local economies and not simply extraction of resources FROM them. All that 'laying-the-foundation' work, unfortunately, is capital-intensive, and the ONE thing poor, ex-colonies have never had is capital.

But if those with capital (rich countries and their financial corporations) refuse to invest it for that foundational work, we don't get to the next layer of industrial investors and others. No one is using his money to invest in a place without stability, adequate infrastructure, or suitable labor, or that makes ANYTHING other than resource-extraction (through dubious means) too expensive/cumbersome.

Not only have we had to spend decades finding basic stability within the colonial experiments we call our modern states since independence, the West also saddled us with horrendous debts during that time that were utterly NOT geared in any way towards development but maximizing profits for Western financial institutions with the approval/aid of our local corrupt despots. They were basically loan-sharking us while saying we were too risky for those other more helpful capital-intensive investments (besides basic needs). So while the West has done some good for us, and it is good to be fair to them, it has kept us from developing due to selfishness and because the world will not co-operate, poor countries will follow the 'destroy-first/build-later' model which in the modern age is entirely unnecessary and so destructive. But what else do we do in this uncooperative world? I value both the earth and human development, and I don't see any other way and that makes me truly sad because I know it's not necessary.

Btw, Africa needs to force some kind of international action against Japan and the U.S. to save our elephants. (Edit! I need to check if Biden maintained Trump's policy re ivory before I add the U.S. to Japan on the dock as the second defendant  :D)

Offline Arcadian_Dreamer

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2021, 05:23:45 PM »
Natural resources - some maybe finite - but human brain - is not. Europe went through environmental degradation but is now almost 40% a forest. Well not exactly the natural forest with animals - but well there are become more and more forested - as they  transitioned from agrarian economy to industrial one.

The same will happen in Africa and Asia - we will go industrial level farming on small land - and plant trees.

What we know is wealth - provide us the resources - to fix problems including enviroment/climate.

So for me - it simple cut trees first - grow your food - transition into factory jobs - and then re-plant trees.

There is no other way - what western nations are trying to do is to throw the LADDER down.

Monoculture planted forests are not the same as the real thing - forests that are self willed, full of plant and animal diversity, wonder, that provide so many ecosystem services for humanity are impossible to replicate. You are playing politics with the cut trees develop later nonsense. It is chilling how your immoral prescriptions for nature mirror early 19th century Westerners responsible for much of the decline in the natural world.     

Humanity's current foolishness is subsidized by cheap oil which yields cheap synthetic fertilizers, powers heavy machinery etc. Once it runs out, things will level out. You can't outsmart nature, you can't out-tech it as you naively believe. Synthetic fertilizers are acidifying soils all across the Africa, soils lose organic carbon and life, leading to falling yields and more application of fertilizers - vicious loop. The much touted green revolution has been a failure, GMO's won't feed us. The only solution is regenerative agriculture, slow food, appropriate technology and local economies - forget about exporting to Europe and China. The air miles make it worthless.


Sleep is good, death is better; but of course, The best would be never to have been born at all.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2021, 05:38:05 PM »
Monoculture planted forests are not the same as the real thing - forests that are self willed, full of plant and animal diversity, wonder, that provide so many ecosystem services for humanity are impossible to replicate. You are playing politics with the cut trees develop later nonsense. It is chilling how your immoral prescriptions for nature mirror early 19th century Westerners responsible for much of the decline in the natural world.     

Humanity's current foolishness is subsidized by cheap oil which yields cheap synthetic fertilizers, powers heavy machinery etc. Once it runs out, things will level out. You can't outsmart nature, you can't out-tech it as you naively believe. Synthetic fertilizers are acidifying soils all across the Africa, soils lose organic carbon and life, leading to falling yields and more application of fertilizers - vicious loop. The much touted green revolution has been a failure, GMO's won't feed us. The only solution is regenerative agriculture, slow food, appropriate technology and local economies - forget about exporting to Europe and China. The air miles make it worthless.
I agree with your caution. I don't know what the balance is re sustainable development. I'm so torn. We can't just say that if you're still poor now, too bad. You just have to stay there for the rest of history. So what do we do? I personally want to protect elephants and their habitats almost as much as I want to protect development. But what is the answer?

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2021, 06:08:55 PM »
Natural resources - some maybe finite - but human brain - is not. Europe went through environmental degradation but is now almost 40% a forest. Well not exactly the natural forest with animals - but well there are become more and more forested - as they  transitioned from agrarian economy to industrial one.

The same will happen in Africa and Asia - we will go industrial level farming on small land - and plant trees.

What we know is wealth - provide us the resources - to fix problems including enviroment/climate.

So for me - it simple cut trees first - grow your food - transition into factory jobs - and then re-plant trees.

There is no other way - what western nations are trying to do is to throw the LADDER down.



I think there is real concern about the environment.  Bazungu know their standards of life come with a steep price on the environment and even climate.  The African wants some of that lifestyle.  If Africa develops to their level, even with its current population, it’s harder to mitigate the impact on the climate.

The concern could be genuine even if motivated by selfishness.  Are western standards of living sustainable globally without ultimately destroying the planet?  I think they are not.



Mine is just what I think the bazungu perspective is.  Yes we can innovate, but with enough time and resources.  If you have too many dependents in the society, it seems likely that long term plans are put on hold to fix immediate needs and it becomes a cycle.  That's why poor kids are likely to put their brains to crime for lack of alternatives.  Africans jumping on rickety boats to Europe - this might be even more important to the mzungu than anything else.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2021, 06:18:39 PM »
Natural resources - some maybe finite - but human brain - is not. Europe went through environmental degradation but is now almost 40% a forest. Well not exactly the natural forest with animals - but well there are become more and more forested - as they  transitioned from agrarian economy to industrial one.

The same will happen in Africa and Asia - we will go industrial level farming on small land - and plant trees.

What we know is wealth - provide us the resources - to fix problems including enviroment/climate.

So for me - it simple cut trees first - grow your food - transition into factory jobs - and then re-plant trees.

There is no other way - what western nations are trying to do is to throw the LADDER down.

Monoculture planted forests are not the same as the real thing - forests that are self willed, full of plant and animal diversity, wonder, that provide so many ecosystem services for humanity are impossible to replicate. You are playing politics with the cut trees develop later nonsense. It is chilling how your immoral prescriptions for nature mirror early 19th century Westerners responsible for much of the decline in the natural world.     

Humanity's current foolishness is subsidized by cheap oil which yields cheap synthetic fertilizers, powers heavy machinery etc. Once it runs out, things will level out. You can't outsmart nature, you can't out-tech it as you naively believe. Synthetic fertilizers are acidifying soils all across the Africa, soils lose organic carbon and life, leading to falling yields and more application of fertilizers - vicious loop. The much touted green revolution has been a failure, GMO's won't feed us. The only solution is regenerative agriculture, slow food, appropriate technology and local economies - forget about exporting to Europe and China. The air miles make it worthless.




Is there a real difference with a planted forest, if I include everything you can find in the wild one?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2021, 06:27:26 PM »
I think there is real concern about the environment.  Bazungu know their standards of life come with a steep price on the environment and even climate.  The African wants some of that lifestyle.  If Africa develops to their level, even with its current population, it’s harder to mitigate the impact on the climate.

The concern could be genuine even if motivated by selfishness.  Are western standards of living sustainable globally without ultimately destroying the planet?  I think they are not.
You have symmarized what anyone can see. Allowing china go ape western civilzatuon has actually caused more pain than it is worthy and accellarated our own destruction. Climate change will be where rubber meets the road. Nigeria will be a developed nation in the next 40 years. It will have one of the biggest population in the world. East africa population and development will tripple in the next 50 years. Western civilization has to be destoryed for us to have a dtable earth.

If Africa starts to consume half as much the Eastern seaboard of the US, I think we can kiss sustainable climate goodbye.  I think the US is the bigger culprit than even other western countries when it comes to profligate consumption.  Europe at least has standards for energy efficiency in their home construction, a lot of public infrastructure, fewer unsightly freeways and interchanges connecting people who refuse to live next to one another.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Arcadian_Dreamer

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2021, 06:31:00 PM »
Is there a real difference with a planted forest, if I include everything you can find in the wild one?

You can't. Human beings can't recreate complex systems of nature that have evolved organically over many centuries. We can't even get tree spacing right. There so many things we don't fully comprehend. Our current reductionist technological worldview always comes up short. We need to develop the humility and reverence for natural things they deserve because we can't reproduce them.
Sleep is good, death is better; but of course, The best would be never to have been born at all.

Offline Arcadian_Dreamer

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2021, 06:34:54 PM »
Monoculture planted forests are not the same as the real thing - forests that are self willed, full of plant and animal diversity, wonder, that provide so many ecosystem services for humanity are impossible to replicate. You are playing politics with the cut trees develop later nonsense. It is chilling how your immoral prescriptions for nature mirror early 19th century Westerners responsible for much of the decline in the natural world.     

Humanity's current foolishness is subsidized by cheap oil which yields cheap synthetic fertilizers, powers heavy machinery etc. Once it runs out, things will level out. You can't outsmart nature, you can't out-tech it as you naively believe. Synthetic fertilizers are acidifying soils all across the Africa, soils lose organic carbon and life, leading to falling yields and more application of fertilizers - vicious loop. The much touted green revolution has been a failure, GMO's won't feed us. The only solution is regenerative agriculture, slow food, appropriate technology and local economies - forget about exporting to Europe and China. The air miles make it worthless.
I agree with your caution. I don't know what the balance is re sustainable development. I'm so torn. We can't just say that if you're still poor now, too bad. You just have to stay there for the rest of history. So what do we do? I personally want to protect elephants and their habitats almost as much as I want to protect development. But what is the answer?

If you care about nature as you claim then why are you screaming bloody murder at modest attempts at controlling our population?

How will the elephants survive if you insist on exploiting their habitats?

Punguza siasa mingi, ati Western don't want to see blacks. ..
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Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2021, 07:04:45 PM »

If you care about nature as you claim then why are you screaming bloody murder at modest attempts at controlling our population?

How will the elephants survive if you insist on exploiting their habitats?

Punguza siasa mingi, ati Western don't want to see blacks. ..
So you have no solution. It would've been better to just say, "Mimi sijui, we should just sacrifice ourselves so bazungu can keep going as they are; there's no other way." Yako ndio siasa.:D The bazungu are right there in conferences saying they are terrified of the African bomb next door and you are here as usual fully swallowing every last piece of propaganda they dish out like a good, uncritical little bot. :D Keep going.

And I didn't resist modest attempts at controlling our population, btw: I criticized Western motives for yapping about our population 247 while they work to convince their people to give birth and lock African immigrants out. I also praised Chinese investments in Africa which WILL lead to sustainable population in the long-term as our populations organically modernize/urbanize. Far more effective than fighting their biological instincts to ensure their lineage in insecure circumstances.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2021, 08:49:14 PM »
The only thing I find immoral is extreme poverty. I cannot engage in academic debate about culling human beings like they were chicken or forcing them to have 1 or 2 kids. People will get kids. There is absolutely nothing we can do  about - beyond educating them - and waiting for effects to show up in 20-40yrs - unless you subscribe crazy stuff. All we can do is fix the poverty. We cannot fix that poverty in Africa - without destroying the enviroment. It just not possible.

Sustainable development is a luxury that western developed world can engage in.

What Africa need to do as priority is to fix poverty. If it means cutting down the Congo to grow food. Let's do it. We cannot have families sleeping hungry as we engage in tree hugging debates.

These poor people are HERE. They are no statistics. These people NEED FOOD now. If you don't want us to cut trees - give them free food. Brazil are cutting Amazons. Kipsigis are cutting Mau forest. The Congolese are cutting trees. Nigerians the same. They are selling the trees - and growing food!

Once we have eliminate global poverty - we can go into these luxuries. But for now we have poor people sleeping hungry.

In meantime while Africa is doing it's damage - let western world pay the price and FIX their mess. For every acre of forest in africa we cut - they should plant 2 acres. For every carbon we produce - they should sink it.

Natural resources - some maybe finite - but human brain - is not. Europe went through environmental degradation but is now almost 40% a forest. Well not exactly the natural forest with animals - but well there are become more and more forested - as they  transitioned from agrarian economy to industrial one.

The same will happen in Africa and Asia - we will go industrial level farming on small land - and plant trees.

What we know is wealth - provide us the resources - to fix problems including enviroment/climate.

So for me - it simple cut trees first - grow your food - transition into factory jobs - and then re-plant trees.

There is no other way - what western nations are trying to do is to throw the LADDER down.

Monoculture planted forests are not the same as the real thing - forests that are self willed, full of plant and animal diversity, wonder, that provide so many ecosystem services for humanity are impossible to replicate. You are playing politics with the cut trees develop later nonsense. It is chilling how your immoral prescriptions for nature mirror early 19th century Westerners responsible for much of the decline in the natural world.     

Humanity's current foolishness is subsidized by cheap oil which yields cheap synthetic fertilizers, powers heavy machinery etc. Once it runs out, things will level out. You can't outsmart nature, you can't out-tech it as you naively believe. Synthetic fertilizers are acidifying soils all across the Africa, soils lose organic carbon and life, leading to falling yields and more application of fertilizers - vicious loop. The much touted green revolution has been a failure, GMO's won't feed us. The only solution is regenerative agriculture, slow food, appropriate technology and local economies - forget about exporting to Europe and China. The air miles make it worthless.




Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2021, 09:00:35 PM »
My only question to the woke Kadame and RV Pundit is why you appreciate the Chinese altruism and not their resoundingly effective one-child policy?
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2021, 09:06:11 PM »
Nice but cannot be done in a democray; Therefore we have to be a little patient - like wait for 50yrs - to get the same results.
My only question to the woke Kadame and RV Pundit is why you appreciate the Chinese altruism and not their resoundingly effective one-child policy?

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2021, 09:19:33 PM »
My only question to the woke Kadame and RV Pundit is why you appreciate the Chinese altruism and not their resoundingly effective one-child policy?

I said I have no problem with Africans acting to manage their own population. I just don't buy Western "concern" over this matter.

I don't think China is "altrustic." I think China is pragmatic and business oriented without the baggage of colonialism and its effects to blind their decision-making. Increasing development investments in Africa and other third world countries gives them a future market, but be4 the market, a future labor force, incase those robots don't come soon enough to take all the human jobs. China is fast transitioning into a country that can no longer depend on selling "cheap labour" as an economic model but only provide a thriving middle-class/market and mostly high-end service/managerial/professional-class jobs ala Europe. If they are the biggest development partner to the countries that will be providing this cheap labour, with deep economic ties/entanglements, they will benefit ahead of anyone. Iyo tu. Hapana anything "saintly" about any of this. Of course I'm happy about this, as an African, because the West would prefer to let Africa provide nothing but raw resources at throw-away prices. It's good that not everybody with some capital to spend sees the continent in that one, narrow, one-dimensional way. Africans should be glad about this.

As to that particular policy: 1 child policy in an underpopulated continent? China was never as scarcely populated as Africa. At least replacement level (2.5 or 2 to 3) would be better. My biggest objection, though, would be how you would effect this? The High Court will quash this the very moment anyone passes anything close to this in Kenya. You would be talking about fighting the political system just so you can force people to do this. We don't have the Chinese system so it will never work. The modest efforts will work but development will work long-term. All you need is to have majority of girls going through the entire length of education and this "problem" is kaput.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2021, 09:29:35 PM »
Kadame: it is projected China will be the global superpower with 2X or 3X the US economy in the mid 21st century. Do you see this as a possible salvation for Africa from penury? This I pick from your disdain for the West. Do you expect the Chinese will be better masters of the world?
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2021, 09:40:59 PM »
Kadame: it is projected China will be the global superpower with 2X or 3X the US economy in the mid 21st century. Do you see this as a possible salvation for Africa from penury? This I pick from your disdain for the West. Do you expect the Chinese will be better masters of the world?

I expect China will pursue its economic interests and not try to colonize any worse than the West, in any case.  Even IF they become another British/American empire, at least we'll have some good, much-needed infrastructure that's not purely designed to take out stuff and not facilitate intra-African trade. 8)

How do you see Western policies towards Africa, given your characterization of critique directed towards it as "disdain"?  :D Do you consider their motives "altruistic", the term you used to characterize my praise of Chinese investments?

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2021, 10:06:17 PM »
I expect China will pursue its economic interests and not try to colonize any worse than the West, in any case.  Even IF they become another British/American empire, at least we'll have some good, much-needed infrastructure that's not purely designed to take out stuff and not facilitate intra-African trade. 8)

How do you see Western policies towards Africa, given your characterization of critique directed towards it as "disdain"?  :D Do you consider their motives "altruistic", the term you used to characterize my praise of Chinese investments?

I am suspicious of Chinese altruism. They attitude and actions in the present sphere of influence is not encouraging. The South China Sea "9-dash line" is a seagrab. I would prefer more a multipolar world but I am realistic: China is likely to be an exacting, overbearing superpower.

The West? The recent historical atrocities such as slavery and colonialism tell it all. I still read litlle-known reports of CIA death squads in the CAR or Chad and they are chilling. The wild is a jungle and Africans are the bottom feeders. But I do not view it as the West's duty to develop Africa. Life is Darwinian and I wish Africans had the fortitude (or industrious disposition) to self-emancipate, self-improve, self-develop. Herein lies my admiration of the Chinese, their systems and their methods, including the one-child policy, eminent domain, meritocratic governance, etc. I see it as a more viable path than the West.

While I loathe the West, am only suspicious of Chinese motives not actions. I am not suspicious nor critical of Kadame. :)
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2021, 10:56:55 PM »
I don't expect China to be a good little "law-abiding" citizen of current international law, for sure; they've long expressed their view of it as a biased tool designed without the input of much of the international community that work under it, include itself. The Law of the Sea has been shaped first by Europeans disputing among themselves between coastal states that wanted to claim as much of the sea adjacent to themselves as possible and great sea-farer states who wanted to maximize "international waters" as much as possible. Later it was shaped a lot by American interests as the dominant sea-faring state. What I expect is the international regime will change according to domestic Chinese views of international relations, much as has happened under the West and lately, American dominance. Especially rules of trade, this area too (LOS), and its view of sovereignty in international law, and emphasis on "socioeconomic rights" well above/in place of "political rights".

But I don't expect China to become a colonizer, ala the West at least until I see genuine moves in that direction; so mine is a "wait and see" attitude. That's not because I think they're altruist. I think their civilization as it appears in their long history, when coupled with the CPC's apparent commitments to socialist ideology so far (they retain control over capital and have undeniable redirected their capital gains towards investments very aligned with that ideology), warrants I wait and see and simply not assume they'll just ape the West. In addition, at least during their rise, (and outside the S. China Sea issue), they've not used fire power to quell border disputes and have not even simply taken over their historical claims but preferred a much slower process throughout.

In addition, Europe is gonna be developing its own military and integrating deeper after Brexit. The EU is a super power already, with a combined gdp near America's. They just haven't had to assert themselves because of NATO and the slow integration business but that will change. Between them and the U.S., it's not like China will be alone in the world throwing its weight around as it wishes. China's belt and road shows its far more interested in integrating into and trading with both Europe and the U.S. The only beligerance I see is coming from Anglo-saxxon countries, with the EU led by the Germans being very reluctantly roped into the whole thing.

I don't think the West has the grounds to be preaching high ideals/white saviour bs while it happily deliberately puts its boot on Africa's neck re development. That's my thesis/critique here. I also know that because of how the modern economy works it's impossible, whatever Africa does, to get out of poverty without capital investments and fairer trading arrangements. Even China wouldn't have hacked it if they hadn't convinced the U.S. to  remove tarrifs and level the playing field between them. Virtually ALL of their economic growth came from that agreement.

The only difference between them and the U.S. during that time of mutual prosperity, is that the Chinese extra trillions made were re-invested back into their people/population (which is where that famed "lifted 800 million out of poverty" comes from) while America, after letting China take all of its manufacturing and jobs from its own people in exchange for those mega trillions, simply used it to make its billionaires even richer and the Middle East a neo-medieval region with its nice bombs, while stagnating its own bottom 50% in the process. So yes, I like the Chinese govt much better than the American one, ALL of its flaws notwithstanding. They have shown far greater responsibility over their people's welfare and more civility towards poorer countries than the current no. 1. (I won't accuse Europe of neglecting its peoples' welfare, though: it hasn't). Even the way China has chosen to deal with its terrorist problem is FAR more civil than the American 'solutions' (all their fake 'genocide' cries notwithstanding, I think forced re-education and efforts to integrate a group is much better than Guantanamo bay and the craziness the U.S. has been doing in the MEast with drones and its military). And China doesn't present itself as an evangelist of super-morality, so it's modest good actions become much easier to praise whereas the West sets itself up for severe criticism with its moral posturing. :D

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2021, 11:52:02 AM »
There was a time we had talk in Kenya about reclaiming the arid areas for farming. The idea was to provide land to everyone. Wonder what happened to that? I'm not in support of farming in the Mau or privatising the land around the Mara. There are arrangements in place where pastoralists communities get a share of revenue from tourism. In turn, they don't turn their land into farms and fence it off, thereby killing the natural habitat of ellies and other wildlife. We should do that: Ban farming in that big area but create a revenue sharing system. Find a partner for reclaiming the arid areas and carry out responsible farming and settlements/housing for once. Take our tourism as seriously as South Africa does so we can make money on that land in ways other than farming.

Offline Kadudu

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Re: Pundit, Termi, Robina, Gout, Kadudu, et al, Njooni hapa . . .
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2021, 12:16:21 PM »
If Africa is expecting its salvation to come from China, then Africa is doomed.
Nobody has ever been helped to salvation on this earth. It is your own initiative that counts. Believing the Chinese will be better colonial masters than the West was is a dilusion. Colonial masters are always masters and a master has to have a servant. So if the Chinese are the masters guess who will be the servant?
Africa has to look for its own solutions away from the Wet vs China circus.We are on our own if we want to develop our countries.

Kadame: it is projected China will be the global superpower with 2X or 3X the US economy in the mid 21st century. Do you see this as a possible salvation for Africa from penury? This I pick from your disdain for the West. Do you expect the Chinese will be better masters of the world?