Bittertruth,kam hiya!

[bittertruth]

Ha ha ha, your long palaver is laughable.
when you say FAITH+HEALING VERSES=GUARANTEED HEALING doesn't work,
its no different from saying FAITH+GOD'S WORD=GUARANTEED HEALING doesn't work. This is sheer heresy brother.

I gave you Biblical evidence on to the causes of poverty. Read proverbs, from the book's didactic nature the emphasis is upon controllable circumstances but other reasons are included. Poverty is a result of laziness ( 6:10-11 ; 10:4 ; 20:13 ; 24:33-34 ), lack of discipline ( 13:18 ), idleness ( 14:23 ; 28:19 ), haste ( 21:5 ), excess ( 21:17 ; 23:20-21 ), and injustice ( 13:23 ).

Frequently in the psalms, especially lament psalms, the poor called to the Lord for help ( 34:6 ; 70:5 ; 86:1 ; 109:21-22 ) knowing that he heard their cry ( 69:33 ). The psalmist understood that God was the just judge of the poor. The Lord was seen as their refuge ( 14:6 ), deliverer ( 40:17 ), and provider ( 68:10 ). He rescued ( 35:10 ), raised ( 113:7 ), and satisfied them ( 132:15 ); it was the Lord who secured justice for the poor and the needy ( 140:12 ).

God is for prosperity of all human kind.

kadame,
this argument sprang from bittertruth's assertion that TRUE Christians should NEVER be poor unless they chose to be poor. Am sure you disagree(d) with this.

He went on and insisted that healing too is part and parcel of our portion in CHrist. I again differed. Healing is real, miracles are real but like poverty, some Christians go through sickness and they never recover through prayers. Scriptural examples abound. Paul,Epaphroditus,Trophimus and Timothy. My point is there is no magic formula of FAITH+HEALING VERSES=GUARANTEED HEALING. God heals wherever,whoever and whenever He wills not when we command him to

I started this thread to test bittertruth's faith. Is he all scriptures/faith bila action?

The test is so simple, it hurts explaining it. If  FAITH+HEALING VERSES=GUARANTEED HEALING works, then no sane believer would burn cash in hospitals, just claim it and gerrit. If it doesn't or bittertruth's faith is fickle, he would be soaking his body in generic drugs from India once in a while or consistently if he has chronic illness

bittertruth will not abandon the false heretical formula  FAITH+HEALING VERSES=GUARANTEED HEALING nor will he admit to fickle faith not enough to keep doctors away. So he resorts to name calling as well as adopting an even more illogical stance that medical science is in the Miraculous league. Tuko hapo sasa.

Note some medical procedures are quite risky and believers usually pray to survive them and hope the hospital will not flash the indemnity form in their face when they go to collect the body. But calling a cornea transplant healing blindness is really stretching hallucination to the max

He is not agnostic, I've been arguing with him for a year, I know the negro  You two are talking past each other. He is trying to emphasize that it is not your Faith that provides you your ordinary everyday things, while you are emphasizing that it is God who does so. God and faith are not the same thing. God lives whether you believe or not, whether you trust or not. And most of his gifts to us everyday, they come to us the way the gift of life came to us, free and without our consent! There are times that our faith is influential in what God does for us, but most of the time, most things you have, if you take an inventory of your life or even of your day from morning to evening, you will find that God gives them to you the way a mother breastfeeds her baby, completely free.

[bittertruth]

Amen. Asante brother.

Faith without works is dead!
You will not be able to discern a praying surgeon going by the number of pastors in today's world.  Their deeds precede them as you perhaps have noticed lately.
All in all God is our healer.  I believe the surgeons have been given the brains to do what they do by God for the good of all mankind.  Halleluiah!

[bittertruth]

Brother vooke,
My view still stands that Faith and Prayer vs Doctor and Medicine are not mutually exclusive. With all your self proclaimed intelligence, you certainly think they are.

Let me demonstrate this to you Biblically:

I do not find a problem with applying both natural and spiritual remedies for healing. Even Jesus said that the sick need a physician (Luke 5:31).

But we need to be careful not to put our trust in doctors. Too many believers seek first doctors before they seek the Lord. Asa did that, and he died as a result of this mistake. "In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians" (2 Chr 16:12).

God was not upset that Asa saw doctors, but He was angry that he sought help "only from the physicians".

That is when we get into trouble. We should learn from Asa's mistake; put the Lord first, and trust only Him to heal and yet be practical and use physicians, medicine, or natural remedies when needed.

Brother, please If  you have kidney failure and you are staring at death, there are  NOT two options as you insinuate,
The option is God first, then get your transplant. And God's will which is good, perfect and pleasing will be done. Amen.

Kadame please, doesn't this make sense?

God wants us to use our brains. Brains is just about the only tangible difference between man and the rest of creation. Christians who use their brains 247 and then suspend the same when it comes to scriptures are hypocrites. You can't be an advanced biped primate at the office and then a mollusk wielding a King James Bible.

Every position you have assumed, I have exposed its hollowness using scriptures. SO you are free to characterize me as agnostic,atheist,satanist,Illuminati, Freemason,carnal,secular or whatever but what is clear is you are clinging to beliefs you have zero scriptural basis for. You are adept at regurgitating mantras recited in your church or you picked off a book sir! That's not wisdom by any definition

And you have consistently misrepresented me. I would have expected an intelligent computer programmer to have the decency or UNDERSTANDING my simple statements.

If I have kidney failure and am staring at death, there are two options, pray and God gives me a fresh pair of kidneys just as He can, or get a transplant, a new kidney from another negro. Both of these would secure me a new lease of life.

A kidney transplant is not a miracle. Why?  I still lost my bad kidney not to mention that another satanist/Muslim undergoing the same procedure would be equally better despite lacking the requisite faith in Jesus Christ the Master Phycisian.

It goes without saying that medical science can't be equated to Biblical New Testament Apostolic miracles, signs and wonders that FOLLOW THEM WHO BELIEVE seeing they are readily manifested amongst those who don't believe!

God knows how my Subaru works even better that Fuji Heavy Industries manufacturer. If I take it to Subaru Kenya and they repaired it an restored it completely, I would be mad to claim that God repaired my car! God can repair it but He didn't, it's some incense and nonsense burning bahindis who did!

vooke,
Honestly I didn't think if a guy with Godly mind  and character would argue like you.

According to you medicine proves that God does not heal.

Science/medicine has limitations, it is naturalistic in nature. God is supernatural, which puts him outside of nature. Science cannot observe the supernatural, but that does not disprove the supernatural.

[vooke]

negro,
There is ZERO guarantee otherwise you would be armed with those and saved up your medical bills
God is sovereign and you don't twist his hand by reciting scriptures and believing He will do what you wish.
I wonder why you need hospitals instead of walking in this 'truth'

If it is guaranteed, how comes Paul,Epaphroditus,Timothy and Trophimus were sick?

1.Timothy had FREQUENT AILMENTS for which he took wine- 1 Tim 5:23
2. Epaphroditus nearly died- Philipians 2:27-30
3. Trophimus, Paul left sick- 2 Tim 4:20
4. Paul had a permanent thorn in the flesh aka infirmity of the flesh- Gal 4:13

What REVELATION did these saints lack that this negro who can't read a sentence in Greek,Aramaic or Hebrew purports to have received? That's why they say Negro Christianity is miles wide but millimeters deep

Ha ha ha, your long palaver is laughable.
when you say FAITH+HEALING VERSES=GUARANTEED HEALING doesn't work,
its no different from saying FAITH+GOD'S WORD=GUARANTEED HEALING doesn't work. This is sheer heresy brother.

I gave you Biblical evidence on to the causes of poverty. Read proverbs, from the book's didactic nature the emphasis is upon controllable circumstances but other reasons are included. Poverty is a result of laziness ( 6:10-11 ; 10:4 ; 20:13 ; 24:33-34 ), lack of discipline ( 13:18 ), idleness ( 14:23 ; 28:19 ), haste ( 21:5 ), excess ( 21:17 ; 23:20-21 ), and injustice ( 13:23 ).

Frequently in the psalms, especially lament psalms, the poor called to the Lord for help ( 34:6 ; 70:5 ; 86:1 ; 109:21-22 ) knowing that he heard their cry ( 69:33 ). The psalmist understood that God was the just judge of the poor. The Lord was seen as their refuge ( 14:6 ), deliverer ( 40:17 ), and provider ( 68:10 ). He rescued ( 35:10 ), raised ( 113:7 ), and satisfied them ( 132:15 ); it was the Lord who secured justice for the poor and the needy ( 140:12 ).

God is for prosperity of all human kind.

[vooke]

Who is creating a dichotomy between FAITH/PRAYER and medicine? Why can't you read before posting?

What you can't do is confuse them something you are happily doing. Medicine is no miracles and miracles are no medicine. A prosthetic leg is not a miracle. Peter never healed the lame by surgery or wheel chairs nor barren couple by IVF

A pagan surgeon performing a complex procedure on a pagan patient, is that a miracle? Of  course no. Then why does it become a miracle when they perform the same procedure on a tongue-speaking bittertruth?

Look at your example, what if the kidney patient is an atheist? Can/Do they recover?

Brother vooke,
My view still stands that Faith and Prayer vs Doctor and Medicine are not mutually exclusive. With all your self proclaimed intelligence, you certainly think they are.

Let me demonstrate this to you Biblically:

I do not find a problem with applying both natural and spiritual remedies for healing. Even Jesus said that the sick need a physician (Luke 5:31).

But we need to be careful not to put our trust in doctors. Too many believers seek first doctors before they seek the Lord. Asa did that, and he died as a result of this mistake. "In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians" (2 Chr 16:12).

God was not upset that Asa saw doctors, but He was angry that he sought help "only from the physicians".

That is when we get into trouble. We should learn from Asa's mistake; put the Lord first, and trust only Him to heal and yet be practical and use physicians, medicine, or natural remedies when needed.

Brother, please If  you have kidney failure and you are staring at death, there are  NOT two options as you insinuate,
The option is God first, then get your transplant. And God's will which is good, perfect and pleasing will be done. Amen.

Kadame please, doesn't this make sense?

[bittertruth]

Negro, before you infiltrate my post with malarkey that a prosthetic leg is no miracle, have you glimpsed why God was upset with Asa?
Is it  because Asa saw the doctors? or
Is it is because he sought help only from the physicians?

Who is creating a dichotomy between FAITH/PRAYER and medicine? Why can't you read before posting?

What you can't do is confuse them something you are happily doing. Medicine is no miracles and miracles are no medicine. A prosthetic leg is not a miracle. Peter never healed the lame by surgery or wheel chairs nor barren couple by IVF

A pagan surgeon performing a complex procedure on a pagan patient, is that a miracle? Of  course no. Then why does it become a miracle when they perform the same procedure on a tongue-speaking bittertruth?

Brother vooke,
My view still stands that Faith and Prayer vs Doctor and Medicine are not mutually exclusive. With all your self proclaimed intelligence, you certainly think they are.

Let me demonstrate this to you Biblically:

I do not find a problem with applying both natural and spiritual remedies for healing. Even Jesus said that the sick need a physician (Luke 5:31).

But we need to be careful not to put our trust in doctors. Too many believers seek first doctors before they seek the Lord. Asa did that, and he died as a result of this mistake. "In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians" (2 Chr 16:12).

God was not upset that Asa saw doctors, but He was angry that he sought help "only from the physicians".

That is when we get into trouble. We should learn from Asa's mistake; put the Lord first, and trust only Him to heal and yet be practical and use physicians, medicine, or natural remedies when needed.

Brother, please If  you have kidney failure and you are staring at death, there are  NOT two options as you insinuate,
The option is God first, then get your transplant. And God's will which is good, perfect and pleasing will be done. Amen.

Kadame please, doesn't this make sense?

[bittertruth]

Are you preaching for the atheists hence speaking for them?
I will give you the solution here notwithstanding. But first lets focus on faith of believers negro. Are you sleep-drunk or something?

Who is creating a dichotomy between FAITH/PRAYER and medicine? Why can't you read before posting?

What you can't do is confuse them something you are happily doing. Medicine is no miracles and miracles are no medicine. A prosthetic leg is not a miracle. Peter never healed the lame by surgery or wheel chairs nor barren couple by IVF

A pagan surgeon performing a complex procedure on a pagan patient, is that a miracle? Of  course no. Then why does it become a miracle when they perform the same procedure on a tongue-speaking bittertruth?

Look at your example, what if the kidney patient is an atheist? Can/Do they recover?

Brother vooke,
My view still stands that Faith and Prayer vs Doctor and Medicine are not mutually exclusive. With all your self proclaimed intelligence, you certainly think they are.

Let me demonstrate this to you Biblically:

I do not find a problem with applying both natural and spiritual remedies for healing. Even Jesus said that the sick need a physician (Luke 5:31).

But we need to be careful not to put our trust in doctors. Too many believers seek first doctors before they seek the Lord. Asa did that, and he died as a result of this mistake. "In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians" (2 Chr 16:12).

God was not upset that Asa saw doctors, but He was angry that he sought help "only from the physicians".

That is when we get into trouble. We should learn from Asa's mistake; put the Lord first, and trust only Him to heal and yet be practical and use physicians, medicine, or natural remedies when needed.

Brother, please If  you have kidney failure and you are staring at death, there are  NOT two options as you insinuate,
The option is God first, then get your transplant. And God's will which is good, perfect and pleasing will be done. Amen.

Kadame please, doesn't this make sense?

[vooke]

2 Chronicles 16:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians.
13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.
14 And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries' art: and they made a very great burning for him.

I have read the verses.
The problem is your shallow reading of the verse and extrapolating it on humanity.
1. If he died because he sought physicians and not God, then does it mean that ALL non-believers who don't seek God when they visit hospitals succumb to their sicknesses?

2. Does it also mean that believers who seek God and medicine recver from their illnesses?

3. And note it says he consulted physicians instead of the LORD. So, to avoid his error, should believers shun medicine?
 

Negro, before you infiltrate my post with malarkey that a prosthetic leg is no miracle, have you glimpsed why God was upset with Asa?
Is it  because Asa saw the doctors? or
Is it is because he sought help only from the physicians?

[vooke]

Negro,
if an atheist goes through the same procedure as a Christian and BOTH recover, I don't see why the Christian should call his experience miracle. It also proves that whatever you are calling miracle can be appropriated  WITHOUT FAITH and GOD's WORD

Are you preaching for the atheists hence speaking for them?
I will give you the solution here notwithstanding. But first lets focus on faith of believers negro. Are you sleep-drunk or something?

[bittertruth]

Negro Please be kind enough to answer my 2 questions for the debates sake.
If you don't know, then simply say it.

2 Chronicles 16:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians.
13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.
14 And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries' art: and they made a very great burning for him.

I have read the verses.
The problem is your shallow reading of the verse and extrapolating it on humanity.
1. If he died because he sought physicians and not God, then does it mean that ALL non-believers who don't seek God when they visit hospitals succumb to their sicknesses?

2. Does it also mean that believers who seek God and medicine recver from their illnesses?

3. And note it says he consulted physicians instead of the LORD. So, to avoid his error, should believers shun medicine?
 

Negro, before you infiltrate my post with malarkey that a prosthetic leg is no miracle, have you glimpsed why God was upset with Asa?
Is it  because Asa saw the doctors? or
Is it is because he sought help only from the physicians?

[vooke]

Both of your multiple choices are wrong
"yet in his disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians."

Asa died because he never sought the LORD

Negro Please be kind enough to answer my 2 questions for the debates sake.
If you don't know, then simply say it.

[bittertruth]

Thank you. Now you know the truth: that Prayer and Faith  vs. doctor and medicine aren't mutually exclusive.
Please keep off your fallacious anti-faith doctrines or otherwise to your self and your stalwarts. 

Both of your multiple choices are wrong
"yet in his disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians."

Asa died because he never sought the LORD

Negro Please be kind enough to answer my 2 questions for the debates sake.
If you don't know, then simply say it.

[vooke]

Strawman arguments. Winning those is not a mark of intelligence
1. Nobody said they was mutually exclusive
2. This verse don't prove they are NOT mutually exclusive, in fact  on its on it suggests they are exclusive; either seek the LORD and live or the physicians and perish

We have demonstrated from the scriptures that believers fall sick and faith+God's Word don't necessarily heal them unless you mean Paul,Epaphroditus,Timothy and Trophimus lacked either or both of these ingredients for disease-free bliss

Thank you. Now you know the truth: that Prayer and Faith  vs. doctor and medicine aren't mutually exclusive.
Please keep off your fallacious anti-faith doctrines or otherwise to your self and your stalwarts. 

[bittertruth]

negro, aren't this your very own words....that there are 2 options, either pray or seek the physician?

If I have kidney failure and am staring at death, there are two options, pray and God gives me a fresh pair of kidneys just as He can, or get a transplant, a new kidney from another negro. Both of these would secure me a new lease of life

.

Strawman arguments. Winning those is not a mark of intelligence
1. Nobody said they was mutually exclusive
2. This verse don't prove they are NOT mutually exclusive, in fact  on its on it suggests they are exclusive; either seek the LORD and live or the physicians and perish

We have demonstrated from the scriptures that believers fall sick and faith+God's Word don't necessarily heal them unless you mean Paul,Epaphroditus,Timothy and Trophimus lacked either or both of these ingredients for disease-free bliss

Thank you. Now you know the truth: that Prayer and Faith  vs. doctor and medicine aren't mutually exclusive.
Please keep off your fallacious anti-faith doctrines or otherwise to your self and your stalwarts. 

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

A blind woman's eyesight is restored in front of 200,000.  No sign of an optician in sight.  The kind of faith that moves mountains cataracts?

[bittertruth]

So what can atheist faith do? Please share some more vids.

A blind woman's eyesight is restored in front of 200,000.  No sign of an optician in sight.  The kind of faith that moves mountains cataracts?

[vooke]

negro,
I have just schooled you on the absurdity and error of your belief and I gave you an illustration to that end.

A Christian undergoing a medical procedure has no right in claiming a miracle simply because it was successful seeing a non-Christian undergoes through the same minus the benefit of faith in God and is equally successful. Besides, not all medical procedures are successful and if the Christian don't make it, then we should judge that they lacked the faith &/ God's word to secure success

You have had an impossible task of proving that faith+God's Word = disease-free bliss in your life. I don't blame you. You can't fight the truth with heresies especially the utterly illogical ones

negro, aren't this your very own words....that there are 2 options, either pray or seek the physician?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

So what can atheist faith do? Please share some more vids.

A blind woman's eyesight is restored in front of 200,000.  No sign of an optician in sight.  The kind of faith that moves mountains cataracts?

You are sharing the theory.  I am sharing sharing the practical application.  These are people that preach water and drink water.  They are living the faith.  No need to bring up atheism.

I'll do some more vids later on.

[bittertruth]

so you deny that you didn't give 2 options for the believer?

negro,
I have just schooled you on the absurdity and error of your belief and I gave you an illustration to that end.

A Christian undergoing a medical procedure has no right in claiming a miracle simply because it was successful seeing a non-Christian undergoes through the same minus the benefit of faith in God and is equally successful. Besides, not all medical procedures are successful and if the Christian don't make it, then we should judge that they lacked the faith &/ God's word to secure success

You have had an impossible task of proving that faith+God's Word = disease-free bliss in your life. I don't blame you. You can't fight the truth with heresies especially the utterly illogical ones

negro, aren't this your very own words....that there are 2 options, either pray or seek the physician?

[bittertruth]

vooke, if what I have said here is heresy and meant to draw anyone from the truth, may God deal with me ever so severely.
But if you, in your rightful mind are in anyway making Gods children stray from the truth, May God's wrath never spare you either.