Pundit, What do Kalenjins think/stand about the Kiambaa church massacre

[Njuri Ncheke]

• Tweet

... I mean do they regret feel guilty? I have been researching a bit and it appears this crime shocked the entire world last time people were burnt killed in this gruesome murder and being non combatants was during Rwanda genocide. It also explains some hate Uhuru, Murathe have for Ruto, this also resonates with the feeling other Kikuyus who oppose Ruto have, could this be the main reason why the kikuyu elites are against Ruto?

[Kadudu]

Kikuyus are very pragmatical people. They will forget Kiambaa as long as Ruto names one of their own as runníng mate. In case he does not, Kiambaa memories will be rewinded back to the rural folks. It is as simple as that.
The Kales have chosen to erase the memories of the massacre. To them the people in that church commited suicide at the worst.

... I mean do they regret feel guilty? I have been researching a bit and it appears this crime shocked the entire world last time people were burnt killed in this gruesome murder and being non combatants was during Rwanda genocide. It also explains some hate Uhuru, Murathehave for Ruto, tbis also resonates with the feeling other Kikuyus who oppose Ruto have, could tgis be the main reason why the kikuyu elites are against Ruto?

[RV Pundit]

Again disclaimer - I always speak the truth -however unplatable.

Kalenjin nope. Is is a war crime in Kalenjin traditional sense - yes but war crimes are reciprocal. Kalenjin deal with kikuyus in special way post 1992. They know kikuyus also don't understand or respect war crimes.

If this was against Maasai or Luos or Gusii - or Luhyas - this would be war crime. Kikuyus are new to the territory - and they don't know traditional war crimes - like not harming women or children.

So when war broke up in 1992 - Kikuyu were basically attacking kids, children, torturing victims, severing their heads, etc. That made kalenjin realize when dealing with Kikuyus - everything was off - there are no rules of engagement - and we started seeing and hearing very grotesgue killings btw Kalenjin and kikuyus - pregnant women stomach yanked - name it - it has been done - dragging victims on town and killing them slowly.

But if you see Kalenjin-Maasai war - it exclusively men on men. A woman or a child cannot be attacked

Kalenjin pride themselves - as people who don't kill an enemy- but who assimilate - which may appear ironical - but killing even of an enemy was suppose to be last resort.

Africans really didn't have that genocide kind of thing. This only happened when Mau Mau went overboard.- this started in Lari - by massacring everyone including children - and that became their modus operandi.

So blame MAU MAU for adopting TERROR against the British and their homeguard. Previously Africans had no terrorism - where you engage in the most gruesome of murder - to send a message.

So in war btw Kalenjin and Kikuyus - don't expect any rules.

... I mean do they regret feel guilty? I have been researching a bit and it appears this crime shocked the entire world last time people were burnt killed in this gruesome murder and being non combatants was during Rwanda genocide. It also explains some hate Uhuru, Murathe have for Ruto, this also resonates with the feeling other Kikuyus who oppose Ruto have, could this be the main reason why the kikuyu elites are against Ruto?

[Njuri Ncheke]

Again disclaimer - I always speak the truth -however unplatable.

Kalenjin nope. Is is a war crime in Kalenjin traditional sense - yes but war crimes are reciprocal. Kalenjin deal with kikuyus in special way post 1992. They know kikuyus also don't understand or respect war crimes.

If this was against Maasai or Luos or Gusii - or Luhyas - this would be war crime. Kikuyus are new to the territory - and they don't know traditional war crimes - like not harming women or children.

So when war broke up in 1992 - Kikuyu were basically attacking kids, children, torturing victims, severing their heads, etc. That made kalenjin realize when dealing with Kikuyus - everything was off - there are no rules of engagement - and we started seeing and hearing very grotesgue killings btw Kalenjin and kikuyus - pregnant women stomach yanked - name it - it has been done - dragging victims on town and killing them slowly.

But if you see Kalenjin-Maasai war - it exclusively men on men. A woman or a child cannot be attacked

Kalenjin pride themselves - as people who don't kill an enemy- but who assimilate - which may appear ironical - but killing even of an enemy was suppose to be last resort.

Africans really didn't have that genocide kind of thing. This only happened when Mau Mau went overboard.- this started in Lari - by massacring everyone including children - and that became their modus operandi.

So blame MAU MAU for adopting TERROR against the British and their homeguard. Previously Africans had no terrorism - where you engage in the most gruesome of murder - to send a message.

So in war btw Kalenjin and Kikuyus - don't expect any rules.

... I mean do they regret feel guilty? I have been researching a bit and it appears this crime shocked the entire world last time people were burnt killed in this gruesome murder and being non combatants was during Rwanda genocide. It also explains some hate Uhuru, Murathe have for Ruto, this also resonates with the feeling other Kikuyus who oppose Ruto have, could this be the main reason why the kikuyu elites are against Ruto?

Interesting read, Am shocked Kikuyus have same capacity for genocide. I never heard those stories of kikuyus killing pregnant women i would say you made them up... Anyway if that's the position between you guys, I can only wish you the best.

[Njuri Ncheke]

Kikuyus are very pragmatical people. They will forget Kiambaa as long as Ruto names one of their own as runníng mate. In case he does not, Kiambaa memories will be rewinded back to the rural folks. It is as simple as that.
The Kales have chosen to erase the memories of the massacre. To them the people in that church commited suicide at the worst.

... I mean do they regret feel guilty? I have been researching a bit and it appears this crime shocked the entire world last time people were burnt killed in this gruesome murder and being non combatants was during Rwanda genocide. It also explains some hate Uhuru, Murathehave for Ruto, tbis also resonates with the feeling other Kikuyus who oppose Ruto have, could tgis be the main reason why the kikuyu elites are against Ruto?

true, thats Kikuyu resilience

[Njuri Ncheke]

Kikuyu during pre colonial times would send there women, children and elderly to occupy meru land, they knew merus would never harm that group, meru border scouts would pick on these settlements and report back to Njuri Ncheke and since Meru was short of manpower they wouldn't deal with the issue immediately as long as they knew composition of the group and with time kikuyus multiplied and men would join them and start farming, next time the meru border scout would pick this and immediately warn the kikuyu that won't be accepted, kikuyu would of course be belligerent, the scouts would report to Njuri Ncheke who would send a representative to offer them 2 options, one be assimilated to Meru community or 2 Leave immediately, Merus would never harm kikuyus so most Kikuyus would agree to be assimilated the other defiant belligerent group that didn't was told to leave. If they refused the next time bands of Nthaka"meru warriors" would be dispatched to expel them by force but even then Merus wouldn't kill anyone unless they put their lives in danger.

[RV Pundit]

Genesis is Mau Mau. They adopted a scorthed policy because the British Army was not easy to beat. So they used terrorism like Arabs are doing against mighty US -to send fear to homeguards and white farmers. The same Mungiki kind of severing the head kind of thing to send a message.

Lari massacre was as shocking as Kiambaa.

The Mau Mau attacks were mostly well organised and planned.

...the insurgents' lack of heavy weaponry and the heavily entrenched police and Home Guard positions meant that Mau Mau attacks were restricted to nighttime and where loyalist positions were weak. When attacks did commence they were fast and brutal, as insurgents were easily able to identify loyalists because they were often local to those communities themselves. The Lari massacre was by comparison rather outstanding and in contrast to regular Mau Mau strikes which more often than not targeted only loyalists without such massive civilian casualties. "Even the attack upon Lari, in the view of the rebel commanders was strategic and specific."[86]

Kikuyu during pre colonial times would send there women, children and elderly to occupy meru land, they knew merus would never harm that group, meru border scouts would pick on these settlements and report back to Njuri Ncheke and since Meru was short of manpower they wouldn't deal with the issue immediately as long as they knew composition of the group and with time kikuyus multiplied and men would join them and start farming, next time the meru border scout would pick this and immediately warn the kikuyu that won't be accepted, kikuyu would of course be belligerent, the scouts would report to Njuri Ncheke who would send a representative to offer them 2 options, one be assimilated to Meru community or 2 Leave immediately, Merus would never harm kikuyus so most Kikuyus would agree to be assimilated the other defiant belligerent group that didn't was told to leave. If they refused the next time bands of Nthaka"meru warriors" would be dispatched to expel them by force but even then Merus wouldn't kill anyone unless they put their lives in danger.

[Njuri Ncheke]

Genesis is Mau Mau. They adopted a scorthed policy because the British Army was not easy to beat. So they used terrorism like Arabs are doing against mighty US. The same Mungiki kind of severing the head kind of thing to send a message.

Lari massacre was as shocking as Kiambaa.

The Mau Mau attacks were mostly well organised and planned.

...the insurgents' lack of heavy weaponry and the heavily entrenched police and Home Guard positions meant that Mau Mau attacks were restricted to nighttime and where loyalist positions were weak. When attacks did commence they were fast and brutal, as insurgents were easily able to identify loyalists because they were often local to those communities themselves. The Lari massacre was by comparison rather outstanding and in contrast to regular Mau Mau strikes which more often than not targeted only loyalists without such massive civilian casualties. "Even the attack upon Lari, in the view of the rebel commanders was strategic and specific."[86]

Kikuyu during pre colonial times would send there women, children and elderly to occupy meru land, they knew merus would never harm that group, meru border scouts would pick on these settlements and report back to Njuri Ncheke and since Meru was short of manpower they wouldn't deal with the issue immediately as long as they knew composition of the group and with time kikuyus multiplied and men would join them and start farming, next time the meru border scout would pick this and immediately warn the kikuyu that won't be accepted, kikuyu would of course be belligerent, the scouts would report to Njuri Ncheke who would send a representative to offer them 2 options, one be assimilated to Meru community or 2 Leave immediately, Merus would never harm kikuyus so most Kikuyus would agree to be assimilated the other defiant belligerent group that didn't was told to leave. If they refused the next time bands of Nthaka"meru warriors" would be dispatched to expel them by force but even then Merus wouldn't kill anyone unless they put their lives in danger.

You seem to use the Lari massacre as justification for Kiambaa massacre
Those 2 events are totally unrelated.

[RV Pundit]

The kikuyu warriors who fought in 92 were ex-Mau Mau and employed Mau Mau tactics. This I heard first hand from our worker in 1996 - he said to have been part of warriors there - though he came from Transmara. 92 was first kalenjin-kikuyu war EVER. While kikuyu were shocked by how lethal Kalenjin arrows could be - Kalenjin were also shocked by how Kikuyus didn't adhere to any rules of war and engaged in most grousome of killing on their side. Otherwise if you check latest war btw Kalenjin-Maasai or Okiek - there are rules. Actually Kalenjin warfare was so common - btw us and maasai - it like footbal matches - people fight - then cease fire for lunch break - and then they resume . It mostly men sport kind of thing. With 3-4 deaths - and peace resume. There have been massacre of course...like Masandere massacre (Narok south)...and famous Gusii massacre of kipisigs warriors who had gone to raid in Migori (Mogori massacre)..

Now understand that Kikuyus in 1992 - in their first duel with Kalenjin - Kikuyu employed Mau Mau tactis including severing heads and torturing victim. I remember during burial of one victim from Kalenjin side - one Retired Army Belsoi - Kipsigis were shocked by what Kikuyus had done to his body - I think they took the head.

You seem to use the Lari massacre as justification for Kiambaa massacre
Those 2 events are totally unrelated.

[Njuri Ncheke]

Interesting, there is tons of history Kenyans don't know about. Kikuyus are very treacherous in war, but i did not expect them to be this cold and calculating, i would have sworn Kalenjin were to be blamed for all evils in RV. This is an eye opener

[RV Pundit]

The stories we heard in 92 - if they found a kalenjin - they would drag you through town - with everyone cutting you - with knife or wembe - a slow and painful death was waiting you. It pretty scary to imagine dying in that painful way. And then they would take your head as their trophy. That became a burial nightmare - as people didn't know how t handle that.

Interesting, there is tons of history Kenyans don't know about. Kikuyus are very treacherous in war, but i did not expect them to be this cold and calculating, i would have sworn Kalenjin were to be blamed for all evils in RV. This is an eye opener

[Kadudu]

Mau Mau was last fought in 1952-1956. Now 40 years later the same fighters are used to fight? Guys in 1952 must have been over 20 years old. Now 40 years later they are over 60. Are those still warrioirs?

The kikuyu warriors who fought in 92 were ex-Mau Mau and employed Mau Mau tactics. This I heard first hand from our worker in 1996 - he said to have been part of warriors there - though he came from Transmara. 92 was first kalenjin-kikuyu war EVER. While kikuyu were shocked by how lethal Kalenjin arrows could be - Kalenjin were also shocked by how Kikuyus didn't adhere to any rules of war and engaged in most grousome of killing on their side. Otherwise if you check latest war btw Kalenjin-Maasai or Okiek - there are rules. Actually Kalenjin warfare was so common - btw us and maasai - it like footbal matches - people fight - then cease fire for lunch break - and then they resume . It mostly men sport kind of thing. With 3-4 deaths - and peace resume. There have been massacre of course...like Masandere massacre (Narok south)...and famous Gusii massacre of kipisigs warriors who had gone to raid in Migori (Mogori massacre)..

[RV Pundit]

Mungiki is mau mau reincarnate. Kalenjin still fight with stone age tactics. Mau Mau old fighters were the one in charge of the fight back. At least that what I heard. They had employed the same tactics they had used against the British and homeguards.

Mau Mau was last fought in 1952-1956. Now 40 years later the same fighters are used to fight? Guys in 1952 must have been over 20 years old. Now 40 years later they are over 60. Are those still warrioirs?

[gout]

The families who had a mau mau family member in the forest and the Mau mau supportes are the ones who have/had no land; or little pieces of land thus were the ones who moved to RV 92 and now 2022 hotspots.

Most nyeuthi naive elitist buy the lie that mwafrika is savage and it is cool for mzungu to nuke/missile/drone whole city or somali villages. Mau mau just played the savagery book from war in Burma. Mzungu had already wiped entire villages in Kisii as early as 1910. Mzuiungu would bury alive friends ike Waiyaki or cold blood killing in case of Koitalel. Mau Mau were ready to pay back savagery for savagery- this really surprised Britons - up to date they is disbelief, dirtying and all sort of propaganda to kill the ability of peasantry to organize and terrorize mzungu governments with bombers which had won the WWII.
 

Mungiki is mau mau reincarnate. Kalenjin still fight with stone age tactics. Mau Mau old fighters were the one in charge of the fight back. At least that what I heard. They had employed the same tactics they had used against the British and homeguards.

Mau Mau was last fought in 1952-1956. Now 40 years later the same fighters are used to fight? Guys in 1952 must have been over 20 years old. Now 40 years later they are over 60. Are those still warrioirs?

[RV Pundit]

Yes the massacre were very few and yet the tribal clashes were so many. Africans were not into killing for it sake. Most people would be ransomed over or sold or assimilated.

This is why Africans have far greater genetic diversity.

The families who had a mau mau family member in the forest and the Mau mau supportes are the ones who have/had no land; or little pieces of land thus were the ones who moved to RV 92 and now 2022 hotspots.

Most nyeuthi naive elitist buy the lie that mwafrika is savage and it is cool for mzungu to nuke/missile/drone whole city or somali villages.
 

Mungiki is mau mau reincarnate. Kalenjin still fight with stone age tactics. Mau Mau old fighters were the one in charge of the fight back. At least that what I heard. They had employed the same tactics they had used against the British and homeguards.

Mau Mau was last fought in 1952-1956. Now 40 years later the same fighters are used to fight? Guys in 1952 must have been over 20 years old. Now 40 years later they are over 60. Are those still warrioirs?

[gout]

The mau mau have had the proud Britons apologize just like gema wants kalenjin warriors to apologize 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/britain-maumau-empire-waiting

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/59-years-late-but-mau-mau-accept-an-almost-apology-8648742.html

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

... I mean do they regret feel guilty? I have been researching a bit and it appears this crime shocked the entire world last time people were burnt killed in this gruesome murder and being non combatants was during Rwanda genocide. It also explains some hate Uhuru, Murathe have for Ruto, this also resonates with the feeling other Kikuyus who oppose Ruto have, could this be the main reason why the kikuyu elites are against Ruto?

This is not do downplay the tragedy.  But Kiambaa-like(generally worse) events were quite normal occurrences during the Rwanda's rampage through the DRC.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

This is not do downplay the tragedy.  But Kiambaa-like(generally worse) events were quite normal occurrences during the Rwanda's rampage through the DRC.

Not true. Also you seem to be downplaying the real genocide in Rwanda and overplaying imaginary atrocities in DRC by Rwanda.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

This is not do downplay the tragedy.  But Kiambaa-like(generally worse) events were quite normal occurrences during the Rwanda's rampage through the DRC.

Not true. Also you seem to be downplaying the real genocide in Rwanda and overplaying imaginary atrocities in DRC by Rwanda.

You misunderstood me.  I am not denying the carnage of the 1994 Hutu led genocide.  I am just putting Njuri's rating of the Kiambaa massacre into perspective.  People often overlook the fact that mini-genocides perpetrated by the RPF and allies continued in the DRC, even after the end of the one in Rwanda.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

You misunderstood me.  I am not denying the carnage of the 1994 Hutu led genocide.  I am just putting Njuri's rating of the Kiambaa massacre into perspective.  People often overlook the fact that mini-genocides perpetrated by the RPF and allies continued in the DRC, even after the end of the one in Rwanda.

RPF used to cross into the DRC to take care of genocidaires not commit massacres, what was the point they already won and had millions of Hutu at their mercy in Rwanda proper if they wanted retribution. Kagame wanted to end the cycle of violence, so turned a blind eye to some perpetrators in the interest of of peace, remember the gacaca court system. Those early days after the genocide however remnants of the Habyarimana regime would routinely cross over the border and massacre civilians in Rwanda and in DRC against locals Tutsis/Banyamulenge civilians. I have followed the history of the great lakes during that period closely. It is an insult to bring up the RPF, a disciplined force that pacified Rwanda and Eastern Congo with Kiambaa massacre.