The "Biotic pump" and Mau forest

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Forest resources should be sustainably exploited. They are there to benefit mankind.

What is at play is pure politics. Nothing more.

We cannot have trees at top of living organism hierarchy.

What this shenanigans fail to mention is that RV has biggest plant cover per unit landmass area. People plant and care for trees in their farms.

ODMoron areas have lowest tree population in arable kenya while they bleet how others are destroying their livelihood upstream!

Meanwhile gov is shredding pastoral land and giving rich white supremacy in the name of conservation.

So when Moi/Kanu regime allowed one community to settle the Mau it was not pure politics?

You take us for dupes.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Gov should be getting people out of poverty. It's the common denominator.

Fighting people just takes those people to more poverty and systemic problems cascade society.

The fastest route to poverty is destroying your water catchment and resource base. You disrupt the water cycle it means no rains which means no food or crops can be grown, that means no food to be sold for money or consumed. Fahamu?

[RV Pundit]

Nonsense.

The fastest route to poverty is destroying your water catchment and resource base. You disrupt the water cycle it means no rains which means no food or crops can be grown, that means no food to be sold for money or consumed. Fahamu?

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Nonsense.

The fastest route to poverty is destroying your water catchment and resource base. You disrupt the water cycle it means no rains which means no food or crops can be grown, that means no food to be sold for money or consumed. Fahamu?

What is nonsense? are you disputing the fact that the destruction of Mau has contributed to droughts and water shortages downstream?

I come from the environs of Mau forests. In the 1990s when I was young, there was a land selling frenzy within the neighbourhood in preference for cheap or free forest land in Mau. People used to boast of virgin soils and reliable rains in the Mau and to spice the deal, it was either free or sold at at throw away price. Then, it used to rain a lot in our area. I remember very long rains in April and December of every year. Farming was booming as farmers could know when to plant their crops. These days, it hardly rains. Droughts are the order of the day. The last time I saw the real rains was 1998. Gone are the streams that used to flow down our land, gone is the swamp that we used to hunt birds in my child hood. The Kamwamba dam we used to fish and swim and watch ducks swim is dying. I get sad a lot whenever I visit my rural home. I don't know what our children will inherit if all these continue. Obviously a barren desert! Our people are now poor and starving in a land once so affluent. I get more sad when politicians politicise a purely environmental issue, when the global concern is global warming, they choose to think in terms of the next election. Don't these people read the international press? Even though there will be social consequences when the evictees finally arrive in our village, I think we should consider the greater good!

Kiprotich, Nairobi, Kenya

You are entitled to your opinions but not to your facts.

[RV Pundit]

Hizo ni propaganda tu.  For last 5yrs the rain has not dropped. In 2019 - we saw record rainfall - that overtook 1961. This year the bridge at our farm was carried away by water.

Nonsense.

The fastest route to poverty is destroying your water catchment and resource base. You disrupt the water cycle it means no rains which means no food or crops can be grown, that means no food to be sold for money or consumed. Fahamu?

What is nonsense? are you disputing the fact that the destruction of Mau has contributed to droughts and water shortages downstream?

I come from the environs of Mau forests. In the 1990s when I was young, there was a land selling frenzy within the neighbourhood in preference for cheap or free forest land in Mau. People used to boast of virgin soils and reliable rains in the Mau and to spice the deal, it was either free or sold at at throw away price. Then, it used to rain a lot in our area. I remember very long rains in April and December of every year. Farming was booming as farmers could know when to plant their crops. These days, it hardly rains. Droughts are the order of the day. The last time I saw the real rains was 1998. Gone are the streams that used to flow down our land, gone is the swamp that we used to hunt birds in my child hood. The Kamwamba dam we used to fish and swim and watch ducks swim is dying. I get sad a lot whenever I visit my rural home. I don't know what our children will inherit if all these continue. Obviously a barren desert! Our people are now poor and starving in a land once so affluent. I get more sad when politicians politicise a purely environmental issue, when the global concern is global warming, they choose to think in terms of the next election. Don't these people read the international press? Even though there will be social consequences when the evictees finally arrive in our village, I think we should consider the greater good!

Kiprotich, Nairobi, Kenya

You are entitled to your opinions but not to your facts.

[GeeMail]

Kibera sit in Ngong forest. And Luos can never lecture anybody on family planning and enviroment. Which slum in Kenya don't you dominate. Even the ones inside my rural place.

I can estimate more than half Luos live in urban slums - those are ILLEGAL settlers.

If Gov was to become as vindictive as you - they would raze them down - and send  more than 2.5m Luos to the streets.

Big difference - YOU ARE ILLEGAL SETTLERS, and you are destroying the forest not coexisting with it. Do fishermen drain the lake? Do you take us for dupes. Stop reproducing like rats, practice family planning and live sustainably - look after the environment.

It is illegal to log trees and to dwell in gazetted forests, but since when did it become illegal to live in slums? I thought you said you're high IQ?

[RV Pundit]

Look at you - which law allows Kibera or Mathare people to squat on public land - Kibera is part of Ngong forest. All slum dwellers are illegally occupying public land designated for other purposes - some occupy land for roads, dams, etc etc.

As long as you have poor people  - they will create illegal slums in urban centers. The poor in rural areas will similarly create illegal slums in forest.

The solution is to treat both humanely - because they are more important than trees.

It is illegal to log trees and to dwell in gazetted forests, but since when did it become illegal to live in slums? I thought you said you're high IQ?

[GeeMail]

Gov should be getting people out of poverty. It's the common denominator.

Fighting people just takes those people to more poverty and systemic problems cascade society.

Poverty is the last thing you can claim here. You must have been in kindergarten when Pundit was here telling us who is who in Kalenjin who are his neighbors in Mau.

[RV Pundit]

When are you evicting Moi. Majority are poor. The solution is easy moron. Once you have allowed somebody to stay in the forest long enough - you cannot just evict them - like they are dogs - the same way - you cannot just drive to Kibera and evict 0.2M people for living there illegally. You have to find alternative settlement. That is gov job.

Jubilee 1.0 did this very easily. They gave each 400k - and all IDP camps disappeared.  In totally it cost about 10B kshs

Poverty is the last thing you can claim here. You must have been in kindergarten when Pundit was here telling us who is who in Kalenjin who are his neighbors in Mau.

[GeeMail]

Look at you - which law allows Kibera or Mathare people to squat on public land - Kibera is part of Ngong forest. All slum dwellers are illegally occupying public land designated for other purposes - some occupy land for roads, dams, etc etc.

As long as you have poor people  - they will create illegal slums in urban centers. The poor in rural areas will similarly create illegal slums in forest.

The solution is to treat both humanely - because they are more important than trees.

It is illegal to log trees and to dwell in gazetted forests, but since when did it become illegal to live in slums? I thought you said you're high IQ?

Kibra is not Ngong forest and neither is it a water tower. Kibra is Kibra. The evictions are inhumane but moralizing Kibra with Mau will not stop the evictions.

[GeeMail]

When are you evicting Moi. Majority are poor. The solution is easy moron. Once you have allowed somebody to stay in the forest long enough - you cannot just evict them - like they are dogs - the same way - you cannot just drive to Kibera and evict 0.2M people for living there illegally. You have to find alternative settlement. That is gov job.

Poverty is the last thing you can claim here. You must have been in kindergarten when Pundit was here telling us who is who in Kalenjin who are his neighbors in Mau.

How many Kibra residents cleared forest to live there? The moral equivalence is not working. Maybe try arguing like our beseiged friend that rain comes from the sky, not trees.

[RV Pundit]

You're insane.Nearly all Nairobi slums are illegal - from land to the structures - name it.
Kibra - is part of Ngong forest - that Nubian invaded - and settled down on.
The same with Mathare - Nubians also created that from a forest or riverine.
Luos eventually went there in numbers.

Kibra is not Ngong forest and neither is it a water tower. Kibra is Kibra. The evictions are inhumane but moralizing Kibra with Mau will not stop the evictions.

[RV Pundit]

Show me one title deed in Kibra. Mau evictee most have VALID title deed because the forest was excised.

How many Kibra residents cleared forest to live there? The moral equivalence is not working. Maybe try arguing like our beseiged friend that rain comes from the sky, not trees.

[RV Pundit]

Most of your are just illiterate with very low IQs.

Quick google search - Kibera is part of Ngong forest.

Kibera originated as a settlement in the forests at the outskirts of Nairobi, when Nubian soldiers returning from service with the King's African Rifles (KAR) were allocated plots of land there in return for their efforts in 1904.

Show me one title deed in Kibera or Mathare or Soweto or Mukuru.

[GeeMail]

Most of your are just illiterate with very low IQs.

Quick google search - Kibera is part of Ngong forest.

Kibera originated as a settlement in the forests at the outskirts of Nairobi, when Nubian soldiers returning from service with the King's African Rifles (KAR) were allocated plots of land there in return for their efforts in 1904.

Show me one title deed in Kibera or Mathare or Soweto or Mukuru.

Pundit equating Mathare, Mukuru lack of title deeds with Mau forest valid titles. Must be a function of the high IQ. How can one help now?

[RV Pundit]

Help me when you're so ignorant. There is absolutely nothing you can help me with. Not even matters enviroment - don't disguise your hatred for people in the love for trees. How many trees have you planted all your life. I bet one or zero.

First educate yourself. Kibera is part of Ngong forest. If you disagree - go check google maps.

Kibera is killing kambas and people downstream - because they are shitting on Athi River - Kenya 2nd most important river.

Deal with that. All rivers flowing out of Nairobi are full of human, industrial and all sort of waste. Mau is very much okay.

Obviously because your tribes men are the one causing untold ecological damage  to rivers flowing for 500kms to Mombasa- you will not see that. You prefer to see Mau like it's Amazon forest.

Pundit equating Mathare, Mukuru lack of title deeds with Mau forest valid titles. Must be a function of the high IQ. How can one help now?

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Gov should be getting people out of poverty. It's the common denominator.

Fighting people just takes those people to more poverty and systemic problems cascade society.

Poverty is the last thing you can claim here. You must have been in kindergarten when Pundit was here telling us who is who in Kalenjin who are his neighbors in Mau.

Well put

[RV Pundit]

The average person get his house burnt is poor. Stop being a moron.

Eti poor people.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

The average person get his house burnt is poor. Stop being a moron.

Eti poor people.

I don't deny they are poor hoi polloi who got duped, the government should take care of those poor people but the fact of the matters is soldiers returning from Sierra Leone and all manner of Kalenjin elite stole land in the last days of Moi government I don't think it is right to compensate those big shots. 

[RV Pundit]

Now you're about to get it. It really depend. If they genuinely bought it - then there is legal process. For majority poor peasant - they deserve to be given alternative settlement - for their lives are more important than trees. Biotic dump and such - are theories. Their human life and properties are sacrosant.

As long as we have poverty - slums in forest or urban areas will be a reality - people will invade wetlands, forest reserves, parks, name it - if they are left unprotected.

So understand - fence all forest or wetlands or parks or road reserves - long before humans being settle down there.

Waiting for 30yrs when people have long settled down - and moving in to evict them is crimes against humanity kind of thing. Just like you cannot move into Nairobi slums - and evict poor people there without due process- even if they don't own the land.

If you think there will be no consequence - don't come crying ICC in few years. First eviction in Kenya was carried out around mau forest- and it caused mau mau as landless kikuyus dumped on roadside had nothing to lose. Kibaki eviction caused PEV. Uhuru eviction will soon boomerang - you cannot destory 100K livehoods - and hope everything will be all right. The thuggery going on in my place is soon going to become like central - kind of violent robberies happening is unheard of.

And don't cheer - because the next war will not spare your people - don't think it will usual kikuyus-kalenjin - it could well be many Luos or Luhyas getting  evicted from places like Eldoret and Kericho - by Mau evictees - so they can their hustles in urban poverty - now that forest is no go zone.

I don't deny they are poor hoi polloi who got duped, the government should take care of those poor people but the fact of the matters is soldiers returning from Sierra Leone and all manner of Kalenjin elite stole land in the last days of Moi government I don't think it is right to compensate those big shots.