Author Topic: International media descend on Hague  (Read 6797 times)

Offline Ole Ole

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International media descend on Hague
« on: October 03, 2014, 05:00:06 AM »
to witness Uhuru make history as the first Head of State to appear before ICC. Guinness book of record stuff
definitely this cannot be good for the Country. No celebration here, a big stain in our country history televised
to the whole universe.  Early last year we cut our eyes and ears and castrated our thought process and sacrificed
the integrity chapter in the false lie of innocent until proven guilty never weighing the weighty charges of crime against humanity.
Too many people of good conscience remained silent and now we must reap the fruits of tyranny of numbers.

Offline Mintos

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2014, 10:56:45 AM »
This is what they were avoiding

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2014, 12:25:49 PM »
On the contrary i think we will show the world that nobody is above the law. A felon is allowed to contest and win election in the US. I do not see any stain here.

Offline Omollo

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2014, 01:26:28 PM »
On the contrary i think we will show the world that nobody is above the law. A felon is allowed to contest and win election in the US. I do not see any stain here.
This argument would have rested except that Uhuru himself wants to use his new status to avoid trial. He is the one who ordered The Mortician, Tobiko and Amina Mohammed to demand that he be exempted on account of being President.  So since felons are free to run for elections, the courts should be free to try them when in office.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kichwambaya

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2014, 03:58:43 PM »
This is the reason why chapter six exists-to avoid putting the country through this kind of foreseable embarrassment. If the IEBC and the appeals court judges had the intellect and the integrity to interpret the constitution correctly without fear or favor, they would have come to the conclusion that Ouru and Ruto were barred from running for office by chapter six. I hope one day this issue will be revisited and the correct precedent set.

Offline Ole Ole

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2014, 05:55:06 PM »
They have it really bad now. This will be a major breaking news worldwide in the same league
with Malaysian missing flight
 
This is what they were avoiding

Offline Ole Ole

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2014, 05:57:46 PM »
No sitting US president ever can submit to a foreign court but also no one facing serious charges like Uhuru can contest or win elections in US. which states are these that allow felon to contest and win elections? In most states felon cannot votes leave alone contesting

On the contrary i think we will show the world that nobody is above the law. A felon is allowed to contest and win election in the US. I do not see any stain here.

Offline Ole Ole

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2014, 06:01:57 PM »
precisely, chapter 6 must be revisited to avoid this kind of embarrassment and shame. 50 years of goodwill will be wiped out
in a new york minute. The sad bad is the sitting president is accused of killing his own people and not some alshabaab     
This is the reason why chapter six exists-to avoid putting the country through this kind of foreseable embarrassment. If the IEBC and the appeals court judges had the intellect and the integrity to interpret the constitution correctly without fear or favor, they would have come to the conclusion that Ouru and Ruto were barred from running for office by chapter six. I hope one day this issue will be revisited and the correct precedent set.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2014, 06:02:25 PM »
No sitting US president ever can submit to a foreign court but also no one facing serious charges like Uhuru can contest or win elections in US. which states are these that allow felon to contest and win elections? In most states felon cannot votes leave alone contesting

On the contrary i think we will show the world that nobody is above the law. A felon is allowed to contest and win election in the US. I do not see any stain here.
More importantly.  A suspect charged with crimes against humanity would be securely locked up and in no position to even go through those motions.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2014, 06:57:57 PM »
Apart from Australia; i am not aware of any country that restrict the right of anybody to contest for any seat; esp an innocent person out in free bail.

Uhuru will remain innocent until found guilty. There is no way he can contravene chapter six when he is innocent and out in free bail...just like millions out there.

It's upon kenyans to decide..if they want somebody accused of cheating his wife or crime against humanity...to rule them.

There are limit to what laws can define...we cannot outlaw a person or many people liking or even loving somebody accused of murder, rape or well a murderer.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2014, 07:00:42 PM »
Apart from Australia; i am not aware of any country that restrict the right of anybody to contest for any seat; esp an innocent person out in free bail.

Uhuru will remain innocent until found guilty. There is no way he can contravene chapter six when he is innocent and out in free bail...just like millions out there.
The restrictions for a suspect of the crimes that Uhuru is accused of are not necessarily explicit.  But they are just as real.  The man would in all likelihood be unable to go through the motions because he would be locked up.  No way you'd be accused of wiping out a village in the US and be out free on bail.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2014, 08:08:44 PM »
Windy City Assassin wrote:

"More importantly.  A suspect charged with crimes against humanity would be securely locked up and in no position to even go through those motions."

Er, em, ... strictly speaking that is not true :-)    One would think that a person who was locked up on such matters would not even think of it and neither would his supporters.   But that was before the world ran into some folks from The Beloved Continent:

In 2011 the "Movement for the Liberation of Congo" declared Mr. Bemba as "the only viable candidate" in forthcoming presidential elections.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201107280838.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/24/jean-pierre-bemba-former-congo-vice-president-candidate_n_907969.html

Mr.  Bemba accepted that "honour" and started to make preparations, the first, most obvious, and most requisite  of those being to ask the ICC to let him go home and get on with it.   The Trial Chamber was not amused and told him to sod off.     But Mr. Bemba is nothing if not a determined fellow, and his lawyers have billable-hours to clock: next step, the Appeals Chamber. 

http://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1227935.pdf#search=bemba%20presidential%20candidate

To cut to the chase: it was agreed that Mr. Bemba could run for president or whatever, in wherever, and in whatever manner he chose but he had to do so from his cell---that even though he is merely an accused monster, innocent until proven guilty, letting him lose just wasn't going to happen.  (Mr. Bemba's presidential efforts subsequently fizzled in the face of "logistic difficulties.)

Anyways, on to the matter at hand ....

Some of the arguments being made in this matter explains why African countries remain backward in self-governance: people think they are being clever and managing to fool others while the only people they manage to fool are themselves, e.g. in making comparisons with better-run places.

Where I live, hardly anybody would bother to look into whether the law allows this or that type of felon to run for public office.    What the law actually says is largely irrelevant *in practice*, the reason being that a *charge* (by the relevant authorities) would be enough to kill candidacy.   Note that that is "charge", not conviction, and bearing in mind "presumed innocent until proven guilty".   

ASIDE: By the way, people who tend to get carried away with "presumed innocent until proven guilty" would do well to keep in mind that all those people who are held in remand, all over the world, sometimes for years, are all "presumed innocent until proven guilty", and they should then reflect on why that is so.   END OF ASIDE.

Back to the matter ...

In Kenya, at some point it was agreed that there were too many dirty, rotten scoundrels getting into public office.  To deal with that, and considering that options were thin, it was deemed necessary to come up with some regulating rules on "integrity".      Those were then promptly ignored, and it was business as usual----back to the usual criteria of "from our village", "our man", "we too need to eat", ...

In the end, it is still Kenyans who are getting a sharp stick up the ... [forgot what I wanted to write there].   If Kenyans want to change Kenya for the better, then it behoves those seem capable of thinking to actually do some thinking.   "Clever" but fundamentally misguided comparisons with other countries does not help Kenya or Kenyans, nor does "clever" fiddling with things like "integrity rules" whose intent is quite clear.

What people really need to think about is the *real situation* in Kenya and how that can be changed.  To the extent that one wishes to make comparisons with other countries, one should at least keep in mind (a) the extent to which the law applies to even the mighty in those countries and (b) the practical realities, regardless of the law, when one is even merely accused of breaking the law.   Deep, fundamental, and honest  thinking about what "integrity" means in the context of public office.  Forget about the USA, France, Australia, ... Jupiter---places where the majority of Kenyans are not to be found and of which Kenya is not a "sub-territory"----and reflect on the real essence and intention of the "integrity clause" in Kenya and why it was in the first place considered necessary.   For Kenyans in Kenya.  If, subsequently, the results of such thinking can be converted into concrete action, there would be some progress in dealing with the rot that in Kenya is considered governance.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Olekoima

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2014, 10:26:38 PM »
to witness Uhuru make history as the first Head of State to appear before ICC. Guinness book of record stuff
definitely this cannot be good for the Country. No celebration here, a big stain in our country history televised
to the whole universe.  Early last year we cut our eyes and ears and castrated our thought process and sacrificed
the integrity chapter in the false lie of innocent until proven guilty never weighing the weighty charges of crime against humanity.
Too many people of good conscience remained silent and now we must reap the fruits of tyranny of numbers.

A very good publicity for the country Kenya. Who knows, this might boost tourism numbers :D

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: International media descend on Hague
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2014, 10:55:25 PM »
Why would the best democracy in the world elect George W Bush? twice? American learnt their lesson.That it democracy. Kenyan will learn their lesson with UhuRuto learn they did with Kenyatta,Moi and Kibaki.

The integrity issues was brought before high court and it was ruled upon. Until that judgement is overturned...chapter six is closed.

The law require that one must have been FOUND to have flouted the law. UhuRuto have not. They are also not in jail or remand. They are out in free bail.

Maybe we need to ask ICC why they would allow any accused person of the most egregious crimes the freedom to roam the world in free bond; and possibly sabotage the case?

In kenya and everywhere else that would require maybe 1B ksh cash bail..and surety of the same amount. At least next time the accused decide to go futigive the victims will get something.


Windy City Assassin wrote:

"More importantly.  A suspect charged with crimes against humanity would be securely locked up and in no position to even go through those motions."

Er, em, ... strictly speaking that is not true :-)    One would think that a person who was locked up on such matters would not even think of it and neither would his supporters.   But that was before the world ran into some folks from The Beloved Continent:

In 2011 the "Movement for the Liberation of Congo" declared Mr. Bemba as "the only viable candidate" in forthcoming presidential elections.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201107280838.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/24/jean-pierre-bemba-former-congo-vice-president-candidate_n_907969.html

Mr.  Bemba accepted that "honour" and started to make preparations, the first, most obvious, and most requisite  of those being to ask the ICC to let him go home and get on with it.   The Trial Chamber was not amused and told him to sod off.     But Mr. Bemba is nothing if not a determined fellow, and his lawyers have billable-hours to clock: next step, the Appeals Chamber. 

http://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1227935.pdf#search=bemba%20presidential%20candidate

To cut to the chase: it was agreed that Mr. Bemba could run for president or whatever, in wherever, and in whatever manner he chose but he had to do so from his cell---that even though he is merely an accused monster, innocent until proven guilty, letting him lose just wasn't going to happen.  (Mr. Bemba's presidential efforts subsequently fizzled in the face of "logistic difficulties.)

Anyways, on to the matter at hand ....

Some of the arguments being made in this matter explains why African countries remain backward in self-governance: people think they are being clever and managing to fool others while the only people they manage to fool are themselves, e.g. in making comparisons with better-run places.

Where I live, hardly anybody would bother to look into whether the law allows this or that type of felon to run for public office.    What the law actually says is largely irrelevant *in practice*, the reason being that a *charge* (by the relevant authorities) would be enough to kill candidacy.   Note that that is "charge", not conviction, and bearing in mind "presumed innocent until proven guilty".   

ASIDE: By the way, people who tend to get carried away with "presumed innocent until proven guilty" would do well to keep in mind that all those people who are held in remand, all over the world, sometimes for years, are all "presumed innocent until proven guilty", and they should then reflect on why that is so.   END OF ASIDE.

Back to the matter ...

In Kenya, at some point it was agreed that there were too many dirty, rotten scoundrels getting into public office.  To deal with that, and considering that options were thin, it was deemed necessary to come up with some regulating rules on "integrity".      Those were then promptly ignored, and it was business as usual----back to the usual criteria of "from our village", "our man", "we too need to eat", ...

In the end, it is still Kenyans who are getting a sharp stick up the ... [forgot what I wanted to write there].   If Kenyans want to change Kenya for the better, then it behoves those seem capable of thinking to actually do some thinking.   "Clever" but fundamentally misguided comparisons with other countries does not help Kenya or Kenyans, nor does "clever" fiddling with things like "integrity rules" whose intent is quite clear.

What people really need to think about is the *real situation* in Kenya and how that can be changed.  To the extent that one wishes to make comparisons with other countries, one should at least keep in mind (a) the extent to which the law applies to even the mighty in those countries and (b) the practical realities, regardless of the law, when one is even merely accused of breaking the law.   Deep, fundamental, and honest  thinking about what "integrity" means in the context of public office.  Forget about the USA, France, Australia, ... Jupiter---places where the majority of Kenyans are not to be found and of which Kenya is not a "sub-territory"----and reflect on the real essence and intention of the "integrity clause" in Kenya and why it was in the first place considered necessary.   For Kenyans in Kenya.  If, subsequently, the results of such thinking can be converted into concrete action, there would be some progress in dealing with the rot that in Kenya is considered governance.