Author Topic: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud  (Read 14092 times)

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2020, 08:00:44 PM »
You are wrong. I absolutely want Bernie to win, not just the nomination but the election: It comes down to whether you see Trump as the problem or a symptom, as I've heard it put. Middle class people can afford to see him as the problem; they long for a return to the Obama years, they think things were basically ok then. But young pple facing a hard economic situation and poor people don't see Trump as the problem but rather a result of the problem, which is a decades old problem getting worse; so they want REAL change, not just a 'normal president', but change to their lives. I have absolutely no interest in a Biden presidency: He is a war hawk, has a racist past, and is libertarian, actually wanted to cut social security, has no interest in Med4all, and has early onset dementia os sthing like that. BUT, as I said, I'd support it because another 4 years of Trump means lots of immigrants are seriously screwed.

Maybe this is what is being referred to^^ but it absolutely is not a critique of middle-class Democrats; to me, it's a more accurate way of understanding what the MSM calls 'moderates' vs 'progressives'. In fact, 'moderates' by a large majority are pro Med4all and many of the 'progressive' issues, both from regular polls and exit polls in the primaries. It's why I don't believe such lanes exist. Instead, the difference is btw those who want Trump gone for the sake of a return to normalcy as their main issue; and people who want him gone so that progressive agendas can be implemented because they're seen as urgent. They're therefore not going to go for someone who can beat Trump but maintain the status quo. I don't think the first are 'establishment shills'. I don't even criticize them. I just note that, in general, they have a different sense of priority and generally trust the establishment news sources, which progressives don't. Because of their sense of priority, they fall in line behind whoever is signaled by trusted sources as 'best placed to beat Trump': it's their number one issue this election cycle. They want the last three years erased like a bad dream, hating Trump's uncouthness, the normalization of prejudiced talk etc and what they've been told is dangerous about Trump. That's not an insult on my part, to simply note this, it's not even criticism; it's just my understanding of what the lanes really are versus the un-nuanced 'moderates' vs 'progressives/radicals'. Majority Dem voters want robust social programs; it's among the ranks of the establishment that you'll find right-wing philosophies thriving.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2020, 08:15:05 PM »
Warren has permanently her base but the suburban  soccer moms core. She is fake progressive and in fact a saboteur - look at her now still failing to back Sanders.

Pushing reforms from within is slow but steady straegy. Sanders managed to push the superdelegates to the convention by demanding their scrapping. They feared he would torpedo Hillary if they did not compromise. He was lukewarm in the general and little to aid her. His med4all and green transformation are now mainstream debates.

Compare to the dismal performance of the British Green Party or Lib Dems. 3rd parties are easily scapegoated as spoilers - what Boris did to the Brexit Party. It does cause the big party to broaden their policy umbrella but I wonder if it is as effective as the push from within.


He would have made the blue states bluer.  Which was not Hillary’s problem.  His support can boost someone in a primary.  But he doesn’t have cross-over appeal.  He is tribal and that can’t work for Democrats.

Sanders has an appeal to the fringe of hippies and students who will never show up even for Biden. Same as Trump's deplorables. These group is everywhere including purple states - where part of them indeed voted Trump to scorn the DNC. Especially students or young voters. But also Latinos - Arizona, Kansas, Wisconsin, Indiana. These purple states went Trump marginally.

Trump's strength is not the centrist/independent vote but the deplorables. I bet he will spruce up a new "build the wall" rallying cry. Biden with his charisma of a dump rag will have little to match.

I agree that Trump’s appeal is not to moderates.  But it is standard Republican fare in its appeal to racists.  The dog whistle approach tweaked by a MAGA bullhorn. 

With few exceptions, that appeal resonates with the same crowd.  Those poor folks have always voted Republican not because of economics, but in spite of it, because the GOP is a vehicle for putting the Negro in his place.

IMO  the lesson in Trump’s wafer thin EC victory is there is still one or two last hurrahs, as opposed to zero, left in that approach.  Not some unmatchable charisma by a man who can barely string together a coherent sentence.  It is still gradually losing its viability despite the distortion of the noise that often accompanies winning.

I believe Trump benefitted from Hillary’s historical unpopularity - they both were historically unpopular nominees  -  to eke out a victory in the Electoral College.  Biden is not that way.  I also think he can appeal to those who dumped the GOP after Trump.  But more importantly, he can excite the relevant demographics in the Midwest and PA that Hillary failed to get.

You really underrate Trump - he is flhent and fairly smart. He is also quite charismatic and a crowd puller in contrast to Biden. It is a false diagnostic that Hillary lost only on account of unpopularity. Yes it was sexism (aka "unlikability"), coupled with a dubious record of blunders and incompetence, lack of an exciting vision with Obama 2.0 ideas despite the fullterm fatigue. But most importantly the brazen fraud/cheating by the DNC turned off Bernie Bros.

If Trump's strength is exciting the deplorables - who are a fringe ala Bernie Bros - why did Hillary lose the purple states? Boycott by the Bernie Bros is the key cause. Deplorables are a fringe - no they don't always respond to the same tribal message if ever. Generally there are 3 kinds of elections:

1. Post-GOP - say after Bush Sr or Bush Jr - there is a GOP fatigue and it is easiest for a Dem to win. Obama's big landslide. There is a Left-> Right-> Left-> pendulum.

2. Post-Dem - liberal fatigue makes it easy for GOP to win. Bush Jr, Trump, etc - coming after a Dem full-term at WH.

3. Incumbent - what you have now or 1996, 2004, 2012. It is always tough to dethrone an incumbent. Because they have coalesced their forces while the opposition faces divisive primaries. The DNC vs Sanders situation obviously benefits Trump. Usually the opposition has been reciting some false- and half- truths about the incumbent without asking why despite his glaring flaws he occupies the WH? "Trump is a racist. He is a sexist. He is a this, he is a that. He is a science denier.. ."

We are at 3 now and the Dems are statistically disadvantaged. You need a very strong change mesage that Joe Obama II Biden does not have. Nostalgia works for the core base in Illinois or California you ironically peg on Sanders. Not in the purples... because, well, they are purple! They have no love lost for either party and vote on the issues of the day. These issues of the day resonate in the progressives much better than the retrospectives.
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Offline Nefertiti

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2020, 08:48:08 PM »
The Establishment is the definition of tribalism. Sanders doesn't demonize voters from the Right or supporters of his competitors. It's from the establishment you get such nuggets as 'deplorables', 'brown shirts' 'Bernie bros' 'Obama boys' and all the other epithets that target voters rather than politicians. You will not find any such thing from Bernie. Even when he attacks competitors he keeps it policy, never personal; even when he doesn't get the same courtesy, to the chagrin of his supporters. Tribalism is literally the survival MO of the DNC and RNC establishments. Russiagate, conspiracy theories, and demonizing the other side 247 to keep their base in line even while they ultimately serve the same masters. It's from progressives that I've found nuanced analyses and a genuine attempt to understand Trump voters, for example. The 'establishment' are content to reduce their motive to 'racism' and be satisfied with their own perceived moral superiority. No one is more tribal than the Establishment.

Very correct.
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Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2020, 09:04:31 PM »
Indeed, remember them trying to bully/shame voters into supporting Hillary mindlessly i.e. just because of her sex? They weaponized civil-rights/intersectionality in such a repulsive way: Men who didn't want Hillary were misogynists and women? Well, who can forget former secretary of state Madeline Albright declaring, "There's a special place in hell for women who don't support Hillary"??? Imagine the sheer entitlement in lecturing rather than wooing/convincing voters.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2020, 09:07:21 PM »
Quote
How about hinting that everybody that doesn't sing from the same script is a corporate shill or "the establishment"?  Would that count in this definition of tribalism?

Your use of 'hinting' indicates you're not referring to anything I actually said. You will not find anything I said that was aimed at denigrating the Dem voting base.

"Trump-lover" as a response to a critique of a candidate or the DNC/MSM/Corporate machinery...Now that sounds like the kind of thing that screams tribal mentality. Yes, 'establishment shill' is an accurate description of someone who can only bring that to a debate. I'm also sure 'establishment' never refers to laypeople/voters/base and my use of the term has not blurred that anywhere.

In any case, if I gave that impression, I assure you that's not what I think or what I meant. I draw sharp distinctions btw the machinery and regular folk.

Interesting. 

I was using tribalism in the context of Left and Right as is generally understood in the US.  So hard Left and hard Right are tribalism.  It's viable for Republicans.  But suicidal for Democrats, because they are built on inclusivity.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2020, 09:13:53 PM »
Warren has permanently her base but the suburban  soccer moms core. She is fake progressive and in fact a saboteur - look at her now still failing to back Sanders.

Pushing reforms from within is slow but steady straegy. Sanders managed to push the superdelegates to the convention by demanding their scrapping. They feared he would torpedo Hillary if they did not compromise. He was lukewarm in the general and little to aid her. His med4all and green transformation are now mainstream debates.

Compare to the dismal performance of the British Green Party or Lib Dems. 3rd parties are easily scapegoated as spoilers - what Boris did to the Brexit Party. It does cause the big party to broaden their policy umbrella but I wonder if it is as effective as the push from within.


He would have made the blue states bluer.  Which was not Hillary’s problem.  His support can boost someone in a primary.  But he doesn’t have cross-over appeal.  He is tribal and that can’t work for Democrats.

Sanders has an appeal to the fringe of hippies and students who will never show up even for Biden. Same as Trump's deplorables. These group is everywhere including purple states - where part of them indeed voted Trump to scorn the DNC. Especially students or young voters. But also Latinos - Arizona, Kansas, Wisconsin, Indiana. These purple states went Trump marginally.

Trump's strength is not the centrist/independent vote but the deplorables. I bet he will spruce up a new "build the wall" rallying cry. Biden with his charisma of a dump rag will have little to match.

I agree that Trump’s appeal is not to moderates.  But it is standard Republican fare in its appeal to racists.  The dog whistle approach tweaked by a MAGA bullhorn. 

With few exceptions, that appeal resonates with the same crowd.  Those poor folks have always voted Republican not because of economics, but in spite of it, because the GOP is a vehicle for putting the Negro in his place.

IMO  the lesson in Trump’s wafer thin EC victory is there is still one or two last hurrahs, as opposed to zero, left in that approach.  Not some unmatchable charisma by a man who can barely string together a coherent sentence.  It is still gradually losing its viability despite the distortion of the noise that often accompanies winning.

I believe Trump benefitted from Hillary’s historical unpopularity - they both were historically unpopular nominees  -  to eke out a victory in the Electoral College.  Biden is not that way.  I also think he can appeal to those who dumped the GOP after Trump.  But more importantly, he can excite the relevant demographics in the Midwest and PA that Hillary failed to get.

You really underrate Trump - he is flhent and fairly smart. He is also quite charismatic and a crowd puller in contrast to Biden. It is a false diagnostic that Hillary lost only on account of unpopularity. Yes it was sexism (aka "unlikability"), coupled with a dubious record of blunders and incompetence, lack of an exciting vision with Obama 2.0 ideas despite the fullterm fatigue. But most importantly the brazen fraud/cheating by the DNC turned off Bernie Bros.

If Trump's strength is exciting the deplorables - who are a fringe ala Bernie Bros - why did Hillary lose the purple states? Boycott by the Bernie Bros is the key cause. Deplorables are a fringe - no they don't always respond to the same tribal message if ever. Generally there are 3 kinds of elections:

1. Post-GOP - say after Bush Sr or Bush Jr - there is a GOP fatigue and it is easiest for a Dem to win. Obama's big landslide. There is a Left-> Right-> Left-> pendulum.

2. Post-Dem - liberal fatigue makes it easy for GOP to win. Bush Jr, Trump, etc - coming after a Dem full-term at WH.

3. Incumbent - what you have now or 1996, 2004, 2012. It is always tough to dethrone an incumbent. Because they have coalesced their forces while the opposition faces divisive primaries. The DNC vs Sanders situation obviously benefits Trump. Usually the opposition has been reciting some false- and half- truths about the incumbent without asking why despite his glaring flaws he occupies the WH? "Trump is a racist. He is a sexist. He is a this, he is a that. He is a science denier.. ."

We are at 3 now and the Dems are statistically disadvantaged. You need a very strong change mesage that Joe Obama II Biden does not have. Nostalgia works for the core base in Illinois or California you ironically peg on Sanders. Not in the purples... because, well, they are purple! They have no love lost for either party and vote on the issues of the day. These issues of the day resonate in the progressives much better than the retrospectives.

To be fair, different people have come away with different lessons from his victory.  So their prescriptions for how to win will be different.  If you think the blacks in Philly, Detroit and Milwaukee, who demonstrably did not show up in numbers for Hillary, made the difference, you have a different solution than someone with a different take.  I think the guy got a lucky bounce.  A few thousand votes the other way and we'd be inundated with stories of what a joke his campaign was.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Arcadian_Dreamer

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2020, 01:19:22 AM »

You really underrate Trump - he is fluent and fairly smart. He is also quite charismatic and a crowd puller in contrast to Biden.

 :s_laugh:  :s_laugh:

What!

I'm beginning to think you are one of those Russia algorithms.
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Offline Nefertiti

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2020, 06:18:44 AM »

You really underrate Trump - he is fluent and fairly smart. He is also quite charismatic and a crowd puller in contrast to Biden.

 :s_laugh:  :s_laugh:

What!

I'm beginning to think you are one of those Russia algorithms.

If you see no problem with Biden's gaffes maybe you are just a DNC troll.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Arcadian_Dreamer

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2020, 06:37:33 AM »

If you see no problem with Biden's gaffes maybe you are just a DNC troll.

 :29:

Maan, technology has come a long way, just marvel at how this algorithm named Robina deceived us into thinking we were debating a real person.

That filthy old kikuyu pervert has several alts here too. What shambles!
Sleep is good, death is better; but of course, The best would be never to have been born at all.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2020, 06:48:40 AM »

If you see no problem with Biden's gaffes maybe you are just a DNC troll.

 :29:

Maan, technology has come a long way, just marvel at how this algorithm named Robina deceived us into thinking we were debating a real person.

That filthy old kikuyu pervert has several alts here too. What shambles!

I don't understand some of these emojis. Maybe use words to communicate? Or better tell us something about the subject of the debate. We can discuss Russian bots on another thread.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2020, 08:01:09 AM »
This dude doesn't belong here. He has nothing to add except juvenile yo mamma non-contributions. Reminds me of the old nipate.

He's also soft in the head: Imagine joining a forum and accusing it's years-long membership of being Russian bots, lmao. Apparently, the Russians are such geniuses they invested years in advance on Kenyan sites to influence an American election :D

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2020, 10:39:53 AM »
Another weakness for Bernie is, fairly or not, he is generally seen as race neutral or worse unconcerned, by many black voters.  He goes hard on many left issues, but is very generic  or lukewarm when addressing their issues often conflating them with race neutral economic problems.  While this seems ideal, because economics are indeed a problem for them,, for African Americans, it’s more than just that.  That’s why, even though he was arrested protesting racism, many blacks feel like Biden knows them better.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2020, 11:19:16 AM »
Me? The only disadvantage I see is a relentless anti-Bernie MSM campaign coupled with coverup for Biden. Biden benefits from association with Obama; He was VP to the first Black President, all within living memory of all voters. Its a psychological thing where we go: A friend of our first president is a friend to Black people. But there's nothing he does for Black people that Bernie does not do or say. Also, he benefits from older people voting. Bernie gets support from young Black people. Biden authored the most devastating bill to black people in decades. I honestly believe theres no way hed be getting majority Black support if the media were not running interference for him 247.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2020, 11:53:57 AM »
Joe Biden's coherence problem has now gone from independent media to Fox to International media. I wonder how long CNN, MSNBC, and the rest of establishment media can go on hiding it. I even saw Mehdi Hassan as a guest on MSNBC embarrassing them on their coverage of Joe Biden. I hear they're trying to switch the debate into a town hall because they know Joe cant go 1 on 1 against anyone; where he cant hide in a crowded stage of bickering candidates. This entire week theyve hidden him from the public except for one or two 7-minute speeches where he still couldnt go all the way without the confusion coming through. There's no way these pple are serious about defeating Trump. They're serious about killing Sanders only. Unless theyre gonna do a switcheroo at the convention where Biden resigns and gives his delevates to Amy or sthing, I don't see how they plan to win. Many pple will not vote for someone with obvious dementia no matter how much they drum that Trump is senile: it's obvious he's not.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2020, 02:49:48 PM »
Me? The only disadvantage I see is a relentless anti-Bernie MSM campaign coupled with coverup for Biden. Biden benefits from association with Obama; He was VP to the first Black President, all within living memory of all voters. Its a psychological thing where we go: A friend of our first president is a friend to Black people. But there's nothing he does for Black people that Bernie does not do or say. Also, he benefits from older people voting. Bernie gets support from young Black people. Biden authored the most devastating bill to black people in decades. I honestly believe theres no way hed be getting majority Black support if the media were not running interference for him 247.

Bernie Sanders voted for it.  But I wouldn't go as far as to suggest it reveals anti-black animus.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2020, 03:40:20 PM »
Bernie was vigorously critical of it for years though, his positions are the same. He voted for it only as a compromise because it gave a lot of money to combat violence against women. There are videos of his speeches and his position is the same and even then constantly railed against mass incarceration. Biden's soeeches are diff. Rem, Biden authored and willfully owned it, nicknaming it the Biden Bill. Sanders saw it as bad but did not want to let the initiative to protect women embedded in it go. I see these two positions as very different.

Btw, I have not said anywhere that Biden has anti-Black animus. In fact, Im p sure Ive said he did not. Just didnt care for Blacks in any special way; has done nothing to earn the 'friends to Black people' moniker. In fact he has blunders there, not pluses.

Offline Kadudu

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2020, 03:58:13 PM »
As you people are making noise about the Dems, Trump in the meantime now has an opponent he cannot tweet away in the name of corana virus. The stocks are going down, the price of oil also heading south. Trump's management of the coming crisis is being tested and he still believes to know more than the CDC scientists on how to manage such a scourge.
The man might not need an democrat to defeat himself.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2020, 04:07:22 PM »
Bernie was vigorously critical of it for years though, his positions are the same. He voted for it only as a compromise because it gave a lot of money to combat violence against women. There are videos of his speeches and his position is the same and even then constantly railed against mass incarceration. Biden's soeeches are diff. Rem, Biden authored and willfully owned it, nicknaming it the Biden Bill. Sanders saw it as bad but did not want to let the initiative to protect women embedded in it go. I see these two positions as very different.

Btw, I have not said anywhere that Biden has anti-Black animus. In fact, Im p sure Ive said he did not. Just didnt care for Blacks in any special way; has done nothing to earn the 'friends to Black people' moniker. In fact he has blunders there, not pluses.

That sounds like he supported “mass incarceration“ because of money to combat violence against women.  That this money to combat violence against women was part of the package is consistent with the notion that the motivations behind the bill were pure.  Otherwise Bernie would not have voted for it.  Likewise Biden would not have sponsored it.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2020, 04:10:42 PM »
As you people are making noise about the Dems, Trump in the meantime now has an opponent he cannot tweet away in the name of corana virus. The stocks are going down, the price of oil also heading south. Trump's management of the coming crisis is being tested and he still believes to know more than the CDC scientists on how to manage such a scourge.
The man might not need an democrat to defeat himself.

Incidentally, coronavirus-type problems would require a med4all to manage were it to break out in a big way. I hear someone who was force-quarantined received a $3,000 plus bill after, just for the tests, ambulance, etc. If the govt doesn't foot the bill, don't expect people to be responsible about showing up for testing etc before they are in serious condition and have spread it far and wide.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: I hope Democrats lose - Obama is the biggest fraud
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2020, 04:15:10 PM »
That sounds like he supported “mass incarceration“ because of money to combat violence against women.  That this money to combat violence against women was part of the package is consistent with the notion that the motivations behind the bill were pure.  Otherwise Bernie would not have voted for it.  Likewise Biden would not have sponsored it.

Fair enough. I still think you're operating under the notion that I think Biden had beef with Black people: I'm not. I just don't think he particularly cared. When it comes to the crime bill, my critique is more that he created damage that Blacks typically punish others for, regardless of motives, so I think the only reason they have not punished him is the media has covered for him.