Kikuyu nation - choosing btw the devil and deep blue sea

[Garliv]

No need for snide. I have categorically stated Ruto and Mt. Kenya are currently joined by their own political interests as they define them. I didn't claim patriotism or statesmanship...

Lets disagree as to whether Parliamentary system is good for Kenya. I truly believe it will make things worse, but let's leave it at that and watch (or participate) the current tussle to the end.

Of course Uhuru is motivated by pure greed same as Raila. Parliamentary is good for Kenya and therefore their actions are patriotic. Is Ruto so in love with the Kikuyu and their future or just their votes?

You joking if you believe Uhuru/Raila are  MOTIVATED by patriotism and statesmanship. This is pure and clear political cynicism. Self interest defined.

It funny how you care deeply about Kikuyu future. Why can't Ruto embrace parliamentary to help Turkana? They stand zero chance under presidential. Doesn't he care about MATUSA or Somali future?

By stoning sins of the father, Uhuru is being a real patriot and great statesman. Not a traitor as you wish us to believe.

[Garliv]

In my analysis Uhuru as PM and Raila as President would be a disaster. Or it would either be it's Raila in charge or no one else. Son of Jomo is lazy and i cannot imagine him being so active in parliament defending government and answering questions. Maybe he will delegate all of it to DPM.
Then I cannot imagine Raila being just "Ceremonial". It is not in his character or political DNA. It is most likely will be government ya vuta ni kuvute.

Then you alluded to something which a good number of Mt. Kenya predict happening: That Raila could be the one tricking Uhuru that he will be the PM. Then once they win election Raila appoints someone else. I know you Robina view Ruto as the worst accomplished backstabber but there are people who believe that trophy is Raila's..

This is a real possibility - that Raila could get greedy and play Uhuru once parliamentary is in place. Nothing indeed stops Ruto from striking a deal with Raila, Mdvd, Matiang'i, etc except his own greed. Raila is clocking 80 and has little motivation to deputize Ruto - 1) their history is not good at all 2) two non-Gema bulls cannot co-exist  3) Ruto is untrustworthy backstabber. It easier for Raila to settle some sort of 50-50 with Uhuru and retire happily as ceremonial PORK. How that coalition plays out after the fact is for the future.

Ps - I care more about the system than the individual. Nothing stops Ruto or Raila from winning PM once it exists. It is just so much tougher for Ruto now as it was for Raila in 2013. He is the untrustworthy nusu-mkate incumbent out of favor with the state machinery.

Ruto's position in Mt Kenya is no different from Raila's in Kalenjin pre-2013.

I agree with your analysis. That should BBI succeed as Uhuru/Raila intend then it will definitely ALTER FACTS ON THE GROUND. That is, for Mt. Kenya it would now be Uhuru/Raila have amended constitution and they heading to 2022 to win. Then calculus would change. My guess is that more and more Kikuyus would make hay with what is practical and decide to see how Uhuru PM and Raila President Combo works. The KEY is derailing this BBi.

NB: You also must factor that Once BBI get approved, then Ruto can and will also play the game according to what's practical. He might succeed in getting KAMATUSA grouping plus Somalis and plus Coast. Then he will have a chance to offset Uhuru/Raila applecart. Think about that too.

[RV Pundit]

Ruto is okay with parliamentary.Bring it on. Ruto will become executive PM forever...till cows come home

It funny how you care deeply about Kikuyu future. Why can't Ruto embrace parliamentary to help Turkana? They stand zero chance under presidential. Doesn't he care about MATUSA or Somali future?

By atoning sins of the father, Uhuru is being a real patriot and great statesman. Not a traitor as you wish us to believe.

I agree that for first time in 20yrs the prospect of PORK leaving GEMA is real - and in that case, it either Ruto or Raila, or well GEMA can still spring a Matiangi like surprises?

I personally don't buy the bromance btw Raila & Uhuru - I don't think Uhuru and GEMA will trust Raila anytime soon. It just doesn't make sense. I think he is a scarecrow that Uhuru is using to steal as much as he wants.

I don't buy this BBI 2.0. I don't understand how Uhuru  & Raila can take two years to produce a report and then turn around to try & hasten to amend it in six months. I think Uhuru amended the report to the chargin of Raila and his groupies.

What I know there is cabal around Uhuru who is working with Raila - on their own Plan. These are Uhuru orphans - who are working on the post-Uhuru plan - likes of Matiangi & Waiguru - are positioning themselves for the executive PM thing.

Ultimately until BBI 2.0 is unleashed - I am inclined to believe this is just the usual Raila trying his tricks.

[Nefertiti]

Whatever the coalition someone will have to deputize or play second fiddle. Raila has no bad history with Uhuru so it is easier for him. He is also on the clock. Uhuru's laziness or ineptitude is a plus because he can lay back and the fox run the pen. He did this in Jubilee 1.0. He could just appoint a hyperactive DPM like Joho and who partly answers to Raila and let them square it out with Ruto.

Now if you take issue with Uhuru-Raila combo, imagine Ruto-Raila. These two have been at each others' throats since 2008. And 2002 before that. They also overlap constituency which makes real conflict inevitable. It would be over in a blink and Gema would be back in the ring.

Neither Raila nor Ruto is eager to deputize the other.

In my analysis Uhuru as PM and Raila as President would be a disaster. Or it would either be it's Raila in charge or no one else. Son of Jomo is lazy and i cannot imagine him being so active in parliament defending government and answering questions. Maybe he will delegate all of it to DPM.
Then I cannot imagine Raila being just "Ceremonial". It is not in his character or political DNA. It is most likely will be government ya vuta ni kuvute.

Then you alluded to something which a good number of Mt. Kenya predict happening: That Raila could be the one tricking Uhuru that he will be the PM. Then once they win election Raila appoints someone else. I know you Robina view Ruto as the worst accomplished backstabber but there are people who believe that trophy is Raila's..

[Nefertiti]

Right. He seem ready to do about turns, somersaults and all gymnastics to derail it. He is onto Tononoka to join Raila now after all the tantrums last few weeks.

Just maybe it scuttles his chances?

Ruto is okay with parliamentary.Bring it on. Ruto will become executive PM forever...till cows come home

It funny how you care deeply about Kikuyu future. Why can't Ruto embrace parliamentary to help Turkana? They stand zero chance under presidential. Doesn't he care about MATUSA or Somali future?

By atoning sins of the father, Uhuru is being a real patriot and great statesman. Not a traitor as you wish us to believe.

I agree that for first time in 20yrs the prospect of PORK leaving GEMA is real - and in that case, it either Ruto or Raila, or well GEMA can still spring a Matiangi like surprises?

I personally don't buy the bromance btw Raila & Uhuru - I don't think Uhuru and GEMA will trust Raila anytime soon. It just doesn't make sense. I think he is a scarecrow that Uhuru is using to steal as much as he wants.


I don't buy this BBI 2.0. I don't understand how Uhuru  & Raila can take two years to produce a report and then turn around to try & hasten to amend it in six months. I think Uhuru amended the report to the chargin of Raila and his groupies.

What I know there is cabal around Uhuru who is working with Raila - on their own Plan. These are Uhuru orphans - who are working on the post-Uhuru plan - likes of Matiangi & Waiguru - are positioning themselves for the executive PM thing.

Ultimately until BBI 2.0 is unleashed - I am inclined to believe this is just the usual Raila trying his tricks.

[Garliv]

The case of Ruto/Raila is like a game of gladiators where only one can come out alive. Should Ruto win, then that is political death sentence for Raila. He must now retire or become irrelevant. He cannot convincingly be hanging around anymore.

Ruto has an advantage. He's still young and he can even afford another 10yrs in "the cold.."  (as opposition Leader) and still get to be President for 10yrs. Time is on his side.

Odds are in favour of Ruto.

Whatever the coalition someone will have to deputize or play second fiddle. Raila has no bad history with Uhuru so it is easier for him. He is also on the clock. Uhuru's laziness or ineptitude is a plus because he can lay back and the fox run the pen. He did this in Jubilee 1.0. He could just appoint a hyperactive DPM like Joho and who partly answers to Raila and let them square it out with Ruto.

Now if you take issue with Uhuru-Raila combo, imagine Ruto-Raila. These two have been at each others' throats since 2008. And 2002 before that. They also overlap constituency which makes real conflict inevitable. It would be over in a blink and Gema would be back in the ring.

Neither Raila nor Ruto is eager to deputize the other.

[RV Pundit]

If Uhuru want PM - all he need is just ask Ruto. Ruto is committed and ready for 50-50 deal with GEMA.

Right. He seem ready to do about turns, somersaults and all gymnastics to derail it. He is onto Tononoka to join Raila now after all the tantrums last few weeks.

Just maybe it scuttles his chances?

Ruto is okay with parliamentary.Bring it on. Ruto will become executive PM forever...till cows come home

It funny how you care deeply about Kikuyu future. Why can't Ruto embrace parliamentary to help Turkana? They stand zero chance under presidential. Doesn't he care about MATUSA or Somali future?

By atoning sins of the father, Uhuru is being a real patriot and great statesman. Not a traitor as you wish us to believe.

I agree that for first time in 20yrs the prospect of PORK leaving GEMA is real - and in that case, it either Ruto or Raila, or well GEMA can still spring a Matiangi like surprises?

I personally don't buy the bromance btw Raila & Uhuru - I don't think Uhuru and GEMA will trust Raila anytime soon. It just doesn't make sense. I think he is a scarecrow that Uhuru is using to steal as much as he wants.


I don't buy this BBI 2.0. I don't understand how Uhuru  & Raila can take two years to produce a report and then turn around to try & hasten to amend it in six months. I think Uhuru amended the report to the chargin of Raila and his groupies.

What I know there is cabal around Uhuru who is working with Raila - on their own Plan. These are Uhuru orphans - who are working on the post-Uhuru plan - likes of Matiangi & Waiguru - are positioning themselves for the executive PM thing.

Ultimately until BBI 2.0 is unleashed - I am inclined to believe this is just the usual Raila trying his tricks.

[RV Pundit]

Some things are irrational - actually beyond stupid and only believable by Robinas.
1) BB1.0 after 2yrs and so  much money produces  a pro-Ruto report - and then Uhuru (Raila) begins a helter-skelter hullabaloo to amend it to BBI 2.0 in six months including holding a referendum
2) That Uhuru will move from being Head of State & Gov and become a minister - a prime minister - answering questions and getting abused daily in parliament - and then rushes to the statehouse salute & inform Raila about gov agenda. What exactly is he desperate for? He has never lacked money since he was born!

The conclusion - Uhuru is playing dumb - playing along with some dumb people - and when times come he will retire - and leave Ruto to make mince meat of Raila.

[Garliv]

Robina,
In this parliamentary system thing, Ruto has the advantage. Should the PM be appointed/selected based on number of MPs then DEFINITELY Ruto would have the advantage. Kikuyu/Luos may have population numbers but Constituencies favour KAMATUSA. Remember during Moi's time, the combined Opposition Votes always surpassed Moi's, but Moi always had more MPs. The situation hasn't changed much.
Again, this is Kanu/Kadu debate and calculations. Remember it was then Jomo and Jaramogi who set out to dismantling Independent constitution. Jaramogi clearly stated in his book "Not Yet Uhuru" that they had agreed with Jomo to accede to Independent constitution so as to hasten Independence. Moi and Kadu opposed dismantling that system but the "populous tribes of Kikuyu and Luos" had the numbers and State machinery. Moi and Kadu had no other choice. But here we are today!

Right. He seem ready to do about turns, somersaults and all gymnastics to derail it. He is onto Tononoka to join Raila now after all the tantrums last few weeks.

Just maybe it scuttles his chances?

Ruto is okay with parliamentary.Bring it on. Ruto will become executive PM forever...till cows come home

[RV Pundit]

3) Irrationality - Raila and Robina don't want current parliament to enact parliamentary system   I guess if the referendum is passed today - they will want it suspended till 2022?  Otherwise if their wish is granted..Duale will be Kenya's first executive PM in JULY  - and will form gov as Uhuru becomes the ceremonial PORK?

I mean you want a parliamentary system through universal suffrage (presidential system) because you're afraid of parliament controlled by Ruto. CRAZY.

Hii bangi lazima THC yake ni noma

Robina,
In this parliamentary system thing, Ruto has the advantage. Should the PM be appointed/selected based on number of MPs then DEFINITELY Ruto would have the advantage. Kikuyu/Luos may have population numbers but Constituencies favour KAMATUSA. Remember during Moi's time, the combined Opposition Votes always surpassed Moi's, but Moi always had more MPs. The situation hasn't changed much.
Again, this is Kanu/Kadu debate and calculations. Remember it was then Jomo and Jaramogi who set out to dismantling Independent constitution. Jaramogi clearly stated in his book "Not Yet Uhuru" that they had agreed with Jomo to accede to Independent constitution so as to hasten Independence. Moi and Kadu opposed dismantling that system but the "populous tribes of Kikuyu and Luos" had the numbers and State machinery. Moi and Kadu had no other choice. But here we are today!

Right. He seem ready to do about turns, somersaults and all gymnastics to derail it. He is onto Tononoka to join Raila now after all the tantrums last few weeks.

Just maybe it scuttles his chances?

Ruto is okay with parliamentary.Bring it on. Ruto will become executive PM forever...till cows come home

[Nefertiti]

The fact that you acknowledge Jomo-Jaramogi dismantled the Lancaster system out of selfishness says alot. Jaramogi had already been kicked out and Moi was VP. So am not sure you mean Jaramogi or TJ Mboya?

60 years into independence we should have a diverse leadership but instead we are being prepped for 60 more of the same.

Kikuyu numbers are dwindling fast as Kalenjin and Somali skyrocket. Winning is not all about raw numbers but includes planning and execution. Luhyas for instance would still not make headway after splitting into multiple parties. Gema have a gang mentality and will wind up in Uhuru basket provided he is the ultimate boss.

Anyway like I said it is one instance where Kenyatta greed might pay off. He will ignore Kikuyu fears for personal gain. Kenya will benefit in the process.

Robina,
In this parliamentary system thing, Ruto has the advantage. Should the PM be appointed/selected based on number of MPs then DEFINITELY Ruto would have the advantage. Kikuyu/Luos may have population numbers but Constituencies favour KAMATUSA. Remember during Moi's time, the combined Opposition Votes always surpassed Moi's, but Moi always had more MPs. The situation hasn't changed much.
Again, this is Kanu/Kadu debate and calculations. Remember it was then Jomo and Jaramogi who set out to dismantling Independent constitution. Jaramogi clearly stated in his book "Not Yet Uhuru" that they had agreed with Jomo to accede to Independent constitution so as to hasten Independence. Moi and Kadu opposed dismantling that system but the "populous tribes of Kikuyu and Luos" had the numbers and State machinery. Moi and Kadu had no other choice. But here we are today!

[Nefertiti]

We mean PARLIAMENTARY system. Study UK - queen has next to no role execept residual powers which PM can abuse. Signing laws, swearing in JSC, PSC, etc appointees. Signing treaties. Not supervising government.

PM reports to parliament not the queen or president. The Leader of the biggest party becomes PM automatically. Even in coalition they merely share cabinet slots and small partner becomes DPM. MPs don't vote on that it's determined by IEBC. Right now PM is automatically Uhuru Kenyatta - but of course only a desperate moron thinks you can change CEO halfway before elections just to make a point.

No, there is no presidential election - "universal suffrage" - only parliamentary and counties. Biggest party wins. President is appointed through some formula but most likely by county or regional delegates. Not MPs. By secret ballot. Caluculated to be non-partisan or "national symbol". Of course there is always some horse-trading. This is the case in Germany, Italy and most parliamentary countries.

You're right Exec PM is a real JOB. Not present nonsense where Uhuru is a deity that Ruto praise despite being spat on hadharani. If lazy Uhuru find it too hot he can retire and leave young turks to run the show.

3) Irrationality - Raila and Robina don't want current parliament to enact parliamentary system   I guess if the referendum is passed today - they will want it suspended till 2022?  Otherwise if their wish is granted..Duale will be Kenya's first executive PM in JULY  - and will form gov as Uhuru becomes the ceremonial PORK?

I mean you want a parliamentary system through universal suffrage (presidential system) because you're afraid of parliament controlled by Ruto. CRAZY.

Hii bangi lazima THC yake ni noma

[RV Pundit]

Dont be pedantic. We know that. We are saying come June - Duale become Executive PM - and Uhuru Ceremonial PORK - after BBI 2.0 is passed unanimously.

We mean PARLIAMENTARY system. Study UK - queen has next to no role execept residual powers which PM can abuse. Signing laws, swearing in JSC, PSC, etc appointees. Signing treaties. Not supervising government.

PM reports to parliament not the queen or president. The Leader of the biggest party becomes PM automatically. Even in coalition they merely share cabinet slots and small partner becomes DPM. MPs don't vote on that it's determined by IEBC. Right now PM is automatically Uhuru Kenyatta - but of course only a desperate moron thinks you can change CEO halfway before elections just to make a point.

No, there is no presidential election - "universal suffrage" - only parliamentary and counties. Biggest party wins. President is appointed through some formula but most likely by county or regional delegates. Not MPs. By secret ballot. Caluculated to be non-partisan or "national symbol". Of course there is always some horse-trading. This is the case in Germany, Italy and most parliamentary countries.

You're right Exec PM is a real JOB. Not present nonsense where Uhuru is a deity that Ruto praise despite being spat on hadharani. If lazy Uhuru find it too hot he can retire and leave young turks to run the show.

3) Irrationality - Raila and Robina don't want current parliament to enact parliamentary system   I guess if the referendum is passed today - they will want it suspended till 2022?  Otherwise if their wish is granted..Duale will be Kenya's first executive PM in JULY  - and will form gov as Uhuru becomes the ceremonial PORK?

I mean you want a parliamentary system through universal suffrage (presidential system) because you're afraid of parliament controlled by Ruto. CRAZY.

Hii bangi lazima THC yake ni noma

[Garliv]

Obviously Jaramogi/Jomo scheme was motivated by selfish interests. But also there is always the issue of ethnic diversity and unity of the unit called Kenya. Having "powerful" regions combined with parliamentary system was feared it would lead to making secession of some regions much easier. At least in the 60s Kenyans were not as integrated. Even now the same issue arise. Then of course suitability of parliamentary system in a truly diverse multi ethnic African country. It's all theoretically attractive to use UK, Italy, Australia as examples but practicalities of an African country are totally different.
I note the reason you support parliamentary system is because Kenya would "have had diverse leadership..." I believe that concern can be addressed within a tweaked Presidential system.
And yes RAW NUMBERS are really important. After all that's what democracy is all about (or what most have understood it to be all about): numbers. And bluntness of raw numbers can be tampered within a presidential system. US have their electoral college. Kenya we have minimum of counties a president must get certain percentage. It can be improved, but i absolutely see no reason to abandon presidential for unstable parliamentary system.

The fact that you acknowledge Jomo-Jaramogi dismantled the Lancaster system out of selfishness says alot. Jaramogi had already been kicked out and Moi was VP. So am not sure you mean Jaramogi or TJ Mboya?

60 years into independence we should have a diverse leadership but instead we are being prepped for 60 more of the same.

Kikuyu numbers are dwindling fast as Kalenjin and Somali skyrocket. Winning is not all about raw numbers but includes planning and execution. Luhyas for instance would still not make headway after splitting into multiple parties. Gema have a gang mentality and will wind up in Uhuru basket provided he is the ultimate boss.

Anyway like I said it is one instance where Kenyatta greed might pay off. He will ignore Kikuyu fears for personal gain. Kenya will benefit in the process.

[Nefertiti]

That is whack logic because Duale is not the party leader. The changes roll out after the next elections.

Dont be pedantic. We know that. We are saying come June - Duale become Executive PM - and Uhuru Ceremonial PORK - after BBI 2.0 is passed unanimously.

We mean PARLIAMENTARY system. Study UK - queen has next to no role execept residual powers which PM can abuse. Signing laws, swearing in JSC, PSC, etc appointees. Signing treaties. Not supervising government.

PM reports to parliament not the queen or president. The Leader of the biggest party becomes PM automatically. Even in coalition they merely share cabinet slots and small partner becomes DPM. MPs don't vote on that it's determined by IEBC. Right now PM is automatically Uhuru Kenyatta - but of course only a desperate moron thinks you can change CEO halfway before elections just to make a point.

No, there is no presidential election - "universal suffrage" - only parliamentary and counties. Biggest party wins. President is appointed through some formula but most likely by county or regional delegates. Not MPs. By secret ballot. Caluculated to be non-partisan or "national symbol". Of course there is always some horse-trading. This is the case in Germany, Italy and most parliamentary countries.

You're right Exec PM is a real JOB. Not present nonsense where Uhuru is a deity that Ruto praise despite being spat on hadharani. If lazy Uhuru find it too hot he can retire and leave young turks to run the show.

3) Irrationality - Raila and Robina don't want current parliament to enact parliamentary system   I guess if the referendum is passed today - they will want it suspended till 2022?  Otherwise if their wish is granted..Duale will be Kenya's first executive PM in JULY  - and will form gov as Uhuru becomes the ceremonial PORK?

I mean you want a parliamentary system through universal suffrage (presidential system) because you're afraid of parliament controlled by Ruto. CRAZY.

Hii bangi lazima THC yake ni noma

[Garliv]

Jaramogi was VP up to 1966. Check amendments to Kenyan constitution up to that point. I think you only mean REPLACING the constitution in 1969 but amendments had commenced almost immediately.
Then fallout between Jaramogi and Jomo wasn't as a result of either parliamentary or presidential. Their disagreements were as a result of other issues.

The fact that you acknowledge Jomo-Jaramogi dismantled the Lancaster system out of selfishness says alot. Jaramogi had already been kicked out and Moi was VP. So am not sure you mean Jaramogi or TJ Mboya?

[RV Pundit]

Jaramogi & Kenyatta both were united in opposing majimbo & parliamentary system of gov. Raila (Luos) made an about turn in 90s and embraced Majimbo. It appears everyone knows wants Majimbo & Parliamentary system. I say let us have it. But like wakili says - this will be one unstable and dangerous gov in Kenya.

[Nefertiti]

At least you now acknowledge katiba has been overhauled before at peacetime. In the meantime Murkomen and Ruto crew are all lined up for Tononoka with memos and addendums about maize and dams. They want anything but the parliamentary system.

Jaramogi & Kenyatta both were united in opposing majimbo & parliamentary system of gov. Raila (Luos) made an about turn in 90s and embraced Majimbo. It appears everyone knows wants Majimbo & Parliamentary system. I say let us have it. But like wakili says - this will be one unstable and dangerous gov in Kenya.

[RV Pundit]

Personally I am only excited if we go federalism/majimbo

At least you now acknowledge katiba has been overhauled before at peacetime. In the meantime Murkomen and Ruto crew are all lined up for Tononoka with memos and addendums about maize and dams. They want anything but the parliamentary system.

[Nefertiti]

Parliamentary federalism is a perfect setup. 60-40% international standard. Or 50-50. Like US or Germany or UK. No one is dying in the UK after Johnson swept through. It not life and death who runs the national government.

Personally I am only excited if we go federalism/majimbo

At least you now acknowledge katiba has been overhauled before at peacetime. In the meantime Murkomen and Ruto crew are all lined up for Tononoka with memos and addendums about maize and dams. They want anything but the parliamentary system.