Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?

[Nefertiti]

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Today 5:13 pm (3 hours ago)




https://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2019/08/court-to-rule-on-inclusion-of-kenyattas-statue-in-new-currency-on-sep-27/

[RV Pundit]

Patrick Njoroge screwed up. It's obviously unconstitutional. The letter and intent of the constitution win. Kenyatta image was in the old constitution and we put that particular article to remove him. And CBK went round & took a picture of his likeliness in KICC.

Hiyo kitu watoe - and print new currency - without any image of someone - preferably just put natural features in it or do public participation - let kenyans give ideas on what their currency ought to look like.

1,0000 weka NGIRI - warthog  - that is what we already associate it with.

[vooke]

[Nefertiti]

I am with you both but...

1. A statue is not a portrait - the letter done
2. Jomo Kenyatta is the Founding Father of the nation Kenya.  There are precedents all over the world where the "founding fathers" and other patriots are mummified on the currencies, postal stamps, etc. The US, the UK, France, etc - George Washington, Queen Victoria, Charles de Gaulle - these historical figures are presently on their national currencies. The spirit done.

[Nefertiti]

[Dear Mami]

I'm with Pundit on this. We deliberately disallowed the images of presidents on our currencies knowing all the precedents that exist everywhere. Many things exist that symbolize the nation that can be used; Our 5 big mountains, the Rift, Our lakes, our map, even KICC. Uhuru is a narcissist for insisting on something so petty, even though it won't be allowed eventually, only delayed. When he's out of power, no one will allow that image to remain and the courts won't be scared of him anymore, so he's only delaying the inevitable..

[vooke]

I am with you both but...

1. A statue is not a portrait - the letter done
2. Jomo Kenyatta is the Founding Father of the nation Kenya.  There are precedents all over the world where the "founding fathers" and other patriots are mummified on the currencies, postal stamps, etc. The US, the UK, France, etc - George Washington, Queen Victoria, Charles de Gaulle - these historical figures are presently on their national currencies. The spirit done.

[RV Pundit]

Exactly. It was no brainer. Mama Ngina, Uhuru and CBK went round this by looking for a Kenyatta stone carving - that is still a Kenyatta portrait. The letter and spirit of the constitution is we do not WANT any human face - carving or printed image - on our currency.

That Kenyatta portrait is more prominent than KICC - which is in the background.

Let them get another angle of KICC without Kenyatta image in it.

[Kichwa]

They are making a mockery of the constitution as usual.  This is what they do all the time with every other constitutional provision they do not like except this one is pictorial and therefore most people can clearly see unlike chapter six and others where they kill the spirit of the law by splitting hairs with the letter of the law.

Exactly. It was no brainer. Mama Ngina, Uhuru and CBK went round this by looking for a Kenyatta stone carving - that is still a Kenyatta portrait. The letter and spirit of the constitution is we do not WANT any human face - carving or printed image - on our currency.

That Kenyatta portrait is more prominent than KICC - which is in the background.

Let them get another angle of KICC without Kenyatta image in it.

[Nefertiti]

I am with you both but...

1. A statue is not a portrait - the letter done
2. Jomo Kenyatta is the Founding Father of the nation Kenya.  There are precedents all over the world where the "founding fathers" and other patriots are mummified on the currencies, postal stamps, etc. The US, the UK, France, etc - George Washington, Queen Victoria, Charles de Gaulle - these historical figures are presently on their national currencies. The spirit done.

Splitting hairs

Let me be clear - I oppose the inclusion of Jomo on the currency in any form.

Now, to the objective argument - the letter of the law is splitting of hairs quite fundamentally. So yes Trump's statue is not Trump's portrait. The AG actually argued to that.

About the spirit, it is easy to see how a "founding father" is a national symbol - the portrait itself is in fact witness for the CBK and the state. So you see Omtata the litigant is helping the respondent.

Then the courts are fond of quoting precedents particularly from the Commonwealth; - well, the patron - UK - has portraits of dead monarchs all over her currency.

Then again we recently in 2010 went pure presidential and borrowed heavily from the US model; - the US has her founding fathers and various heroes on her currency.

@Kadame - I was hoping to hear your legal argument? Obviously noone here wants Jomo on the portrait but the court will use law and arguments not subjective feelings.

[Nefertiti]

And surely we can stop the escapist "judges will be afraid for their lives or career". That's negativism and defeatist [sic]. The court will rule by law, evidence, precedent and arguments.

[RV Pundit]

Robina stick to building games or whatever you do.You make tortured arguments that are honestly shockingly ignorant.I say this with 20 yrs online experience.

[Kichwa]

Why are you feeling obligated to make the tortured argument for for the court unless you are supportive or sympathetic to that argument. Whether the courts succumb to that silly argument does not negate the argument that  allowing the  image of Kenyatta on the currency is an affront to the spirit of the law.

I am with you both but...

1. A statue is not a portrait - the letter done
2. Jomo Kenyatta is the Founding Father of the nation Kenya.  There are precedents all over the world where the "founding fathers" and other patriots are mummified on the currencies, postal stamps, etc. The US, the UK, France, etc - George Washington, Queen Victoria, Charles de Gaulle - these historical figures are presently on their national currencies. The spirit done.

Splitting hairs

Let me be clear - I oppose the inclusion of Jomo on the currency in any form.

Now, to the objective argument - the letter of the law is splitting of hairs quite fundamentally. So yes Trump's statue is not Trump's portrait. The AG actually argued to that.

About the spirit, it is easy to see how a "founding father" is a national symbol - the portrait itself is in fact witness for the CBK and the state. So you see Omtata the litigant is helping the respondent.

Then the courts are fond of quoting precedents particularly from the Commonwealth; - well, the patron - UK - has portraits of dead monarchs all over her currency.

Then again we recently in 2010 went pure presidential and borrowed heavily from the US model; - the US has her founding fathers and various heroes on her currency.

@Kadame - I was hoping to hear your legal argument? Obviously noone here wants Jomo on the portrait but the court will use law and arguments not subjective feelings.

[Dear Mami]

@Kadame - I was hoping to hear your legal argument? Obviously noone here wants Jomo on the portrait but the court will use law and arguments not subjective feelings.
And surely we can stop the escapist "judges will be afraid for their lives or career". That's negativism and defeatist [sic]. The court will rule by law, evidence, precedent and arguments.

Disagreeing with your weak points is not resorting to subjective feelings, ok Robina? And you think the law is reasoned outside common sense? There's a legal standard used all the time called "what the reasonable man would do/think", and the constitution disallows using technicalities to skirt around substance, which is everything you're arguing here. We all know what the drafters intended and what they told Kenyans as we voted for this constitution and that's part of the legal interpretation. Pretending our courts aren't influenced by the presidency is a degree of naivety I will not bother trying to argue with.

[Nefertiti]

Right. Online experience is now legal experience. The beauty of legal debates is that the courts sooner pronounce themselves. Like in the Waititu case where your "online experience" and long tales about the sanctity of elected office have come to nought. Let's wait.

Robina stick to building games or whatever you do.You make tortured arguments that are honestly shockingly ignorant.I say this with 20 yrs online experience.

[Nefertiti]

@Kadame - I was hoping to hear your legal argument? Obviously noone here wants Jomo on the portrait but the court will use law and arguments not subjective feelings.
And surely we can stop the escapist "judges will be afraid for their lives or career". That's negativism and defeatist [sic]. The court will rule by law, evidence, precedent and arguments.

Disagreeing with your weak points is not resorting to subjective feelings, ok Robina? And you think the law is reasoned outside common sense? There's a legal standard used all the time called "what the reasonable man would do/think", and the constitution disallows using technicalities to skirt around substance, which is everything you're arguing here. We all know what the drafters intended and what they told Kenyans as we voted for this constitution and that's part of the legal interpretation. Pretending our courts aren't influenced by the presidency is a degree of naivety I will not bother trying to argue with.

I stand corrected. What am getting is the law is both its letter and spirit. The fear of the presidency dig was meant for Pundit who calls it negativity. The learned justices will soon rule on this - if Omtata wins then you were right; if he loses then the judges were intimidated. I get you.

[RV Pundit]

Yes I have seen your type. Fish out of water. Struggling to make really tortured arguments. I don't think we have seen the last of Waitutu case. It's not even been heard at constitutional court as it should and by at least a 3 or 5 bench judge.

As for this currency case - it the most straightforward case - and CBK have violated the CONSTITUTION - and will have to re-print those currencies without any image of Kenyatta in there..

Right. Online experience is now legal experience. The beauty of legal debates is that the courts sooner pronounce themselves. Like in the Waititu case where your "online experience" and long tales about the sanctity of elected office have come to nought. Let's wait.

[RV Pundit]

So straightforward. And it's no a light matter because it made to the CONSTITUTION.

http://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/constitution-of-kenya/153-chapter-twelve-public-finance/part-7-financial-officers-and-institutions/400-231-central-bank-of-kenya


Article 231

(4) Notes and coins issued by the Central Bank of Kenya may bear images that depict or symbolise Kenya or an aspect of Kenya but shall not bear the portrait of any individual.


What is a POTRAIT:

portrait
/?p??tr?t,?p??tre?t/
 Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
a painting, drawing, photograph, or engraving of a person, especially one depicting only the face or head and shoulders.

[Dear Mami]

Yes I have seen your type. Fish out of water. Struggling to make really tortured arguments.

I disagree with ur assessment of Robina. She's actually super smart! She's just also the super practical type. To her a fuss over a picture on a currency is kinda silly, especially given we have old presidents on many currencies and the argument she's making *IS* indeed being made by the GOK lawyers. Our Robina is interested in bread n butter issues. These ones seem like emotional or trivial things. I disagree of course, but it's not the stance of a silly person.

[Nefertiti]

Pundit is in trouble with my fishing him out of the pond - his ideological echo chamber - about Jubilee and Ruto's voodoo growth, white elephants, trains in the wrong places and weetabix factories. But seriously it's not that this issue is "beneath me" - that's our Pundit and his hubris - I actually see the state winning this one. Good chance of that. If it were a cut&dry no-brainer as some suppose the justices would not be touring the site.