Parliamentary systems very unpopular

[RV Pundit]

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https://mobile.nation.co.ke/news/Majority-of-Kenyans-support-referendum-push/1950946-5040018-irv4pa/index.html

[Nefertiti]

More lies from you. That's basically a Raila v Ruto poll.

[Nefertiti]

[RV Pundit]

You're proving the usual idiot. How does Infotrak become a lie from me.

More lies from you. That's basically a Raila v Ruto poll.

[RV Pundit]

You must be very young. I was in rcbowen as early as 2001 and very active from 2004 - when Ruto was mere MP that I didn't give a second look at. Ruto pre-emergence as the political kingpin is a contemporary reality. The rest of your nonsense are just the usual frustrations when you realize Ruto is unstoppable. We know the pattern. Next you'll disappear for months to re-merge when you think Ruto is at his weakest.

As regard corruption and growth - economic growth rate would tell us if we need to worry - we are growing at round off of 6% - Rwanda without corruption are growing at 7% - we therefore can conclude - ceteris peribus that we are probably losing 1% growth rate to corruption & inefficiency - which is something worth fighting for - but it doesn't take away that 6% Jubilee growth rate is impressive - and definitely just like china grew with dictatorship - Kenya can grow with some corruption - it only a deal breaker if it become free for all.

[Nefertiti]

It's a low ball humor - glad you follow

[Omollo]

I would pay little attention to opinion polls where the word "parliament" is mentioned. Parliament is hated by Kenyans because they know once MPs are elected they hardly guard the interests of citizens.

However when the Katiba Commissioners went around the country, there was overwhelming support for the Parliamentary System.

It is Ruto and Uhuru who killed it at Naivasha PSC when forming their alliance. GEMA had campaigned against the issue thus succeeding in making it "contentious". GEMA alone could not get enough votes but Ruto turned the tables when he and his Kalenjin MPs in PSC voted for it.

ODM could have objected but then that would have played in to the hands of Uhuru and Kibaki who had decided to oppose the parliamentary system exactly because GEMA would be confined to the abyss on account of making deals and dishonoring them.

With Parliamentary system Ruto would have sent Uhuru home last year when he had enough MPs. One does not need 2/3. A simple majority would send home any government.

[RV Pundit]

I don't think parliamentary system has ever been an option popular with kenyans. Parliament just has a bad reputation and kenya do not want their right to vote for PORK taken away from them - and given to the most corrupt and unaccountable group of self-serving people - who 70% have lost elections every election cycle since it was held in 1963.  The parliament that when it come to their self-interest (salaries and such) close ranks - and betray national interest.

What has always been on the table is a hybrid system. That was somehow destroyed in Naivasha and new animal Purely Presidential System was adopted.

You can blame Ruto all day but everyone knows it was Raila who turned 360% degrees to support this model because he was convinced then that with ICC hobbling his competitors - he had CLEAR SHOT AT PORK.

Kenyans as captured by Ruto at London are now saying we need the old system back. We need hybrid systems where losers - Raila and Kalonzos - don't end up jobless - but end up providing robust opposition - and get paid for it. It will also be helpful if Ministers were attending parliament as ex-offico members to answer questions, move bills and generally be accountable to kenyans too. Parliament should probably have vote of no confidence on some of the executive.

In short the old systems plus federalism or devolution works better.

I would pay little attention to opinion polls where the word "parliament" is mentioned. Parliament is hated by Kenyans because they know once MPs are elected they hardly guard the interests of citizens.

However when the Katiba Commissioners went around the country, there was overwhelming support for the Parliamentary System.

It is Ruto and Uhuru who killed it at Naivasha PSC when forming their alliance. GEMA had campaigned against the issue thus succeeding in making it "contentious". GEMA alone could not get enough votes but Ruto turned the tables when he and his Kalenjin MPs in PSC voted for it.

ODM could have objected but then that would have played in to the hands of Uhuru and Kibaki who had decided to oppose the parliamentary system exactly because GEMA would be confined to the abyss on account of making deals and dishonoring them.

With Parliamentary system Ruto would have sent Uhuru home last year when he had enough MPs. One does not need 2/3. A simple majority would send home any government.

[Nefertiti]

Kenyans will have to vote Yes or No - and Uhuru-Raila control that via BBI - with Ruto locked out. They can introduce PM and sweeten with fewer MPs and more devolution. Ruto options are limited to Yes or No. Referendum just like PEV is a poisoned chalice for Ruto.

I don't think parliamentary system has ever been an option popular with kenyans. Parliament just has a bad reputation and kenya do not want their right to vote for PORK taken away from them - and given to the most corrupt and unaccountable group of self-serving people - who 70% have lost elections every election cycle since it was held in 1963.  The parliament that when it come to their self-interest (salaries and such) close ranks - and betray national interest.

What has always been on the table is a hybrid system. That was somehow destroyed in Naivasha and new animal Purely Presidential System was adopted.

You can blame Ruto all day but everyone knows it was Raila who turned 360% degrees to support this model because he was convinced then that with ICC hobbling his competitors - he had CLEAR SHOT AT PORK.

Kenyans as captured by Ruto at London are now saying we need the old system back. We need hybrid systems where losers - Raila and Kalonzos - don't end up jobless - but end up providing robust opposition - and get paid for it. It will also be helpful if Ministers were attending parliament as ex-offico members to answer questions, move bills and generally be accountable to kenyans too. Parliament should probably have vote of no confidence on some of the executive.

In short the old systems plus federalism or devolution works better.

[RV Pundit]

You got jokes. You think BBI of a joke - funded from slush funds from interior ministry - will somehow present us with YES OR NO prescription? How will that even work. First hiyo  BBI is illegal ab initio. It will be tied in courts. And if it survive it will have to go through a lengthy process to ammend the constitution.

That process include winning more than half counties. MCAS are already opposed to that nonsense of regional govs. That is HUGE hurdle - governors obviously want something to do after the two-term limit - but MCAS knows any regional gov will dilute their powers and make them kanjoras. 

Then it goes to parliament.And then it will face kenyans. Nobody wants to re-open serious constitutional issues - such as regional gov or change of systems - these things took 30yrs to negotiate and agree on - nobody want to lose their county - that is given - or have their county subservient to big tribes. Bla de bla.

Finally Uhuru has not time for such nonsense. Wait and see. BBI is just something to make Raila busy and hopefully - otherwise if it was serious - you'd be seeing serious presentations, arguments and emotions. Nobody knows it even exists.

Kenyans will have to vote Yes or No - and Uhuru-Raila control that via BBI - with Ruto locked out. They can introduce PM and sweeten with fewer MPs and more devolution. Ruto options are limited to Yes or No. Referendum just like PEV is a poisoned chalice for Ruto.

[Omollo]

I have this one problem: I lose patience in the face of a person willfully distorting recent history.

Pundit & I were the only two people who noticed what happened in Naivasha. I spoke against the deal between Uhuru and Ruto. I appealed to Raila and others in ODM to disown it and let us go back to the start if it meant violating the wishes of the people.

Pundit is twisting the chronology - which looks lie nothing except that is the whole thing. It boils down to the question: Who screwed Kenyans first? Was it Raila or Ruto and Uhuru?

Unlike Ruto and Uhuru, Raila was not in Naivasha. Therefore there should be no argument here. I would like to defend people too but not by fudging and lying. Ruto voted with Uhuru and they had a majority ALREADY. The deal was done. The system was now pure presidential - like Uhuru's father's time when he was growing up in State House being told one day you too will be president! That is what he wanted!

Raila was called by his people and informed of Ruto's treachery. The team in Naivasha wanted to know their next move. Were they to stay on or walk out and start to wreck the whole thing leading to their voting NO.

Raila at this point asked them to suck it and let it pass.

Today Pundit wants to amend history just so his man can appear in good light. It is sickening

Raila made a turn yes. He avoided confrontation. He did not have the votes to change what Ruto and Uhuru had passed. He had only one option: To reject it and advise a NO vote.

Either way the forces that did not want a new constitution would win. He believed he could live with that one and perhaps make amendments later. Or perhaps he was deluded, like Ruto is now, in believing he would be the net PORK

I don't think parliamentary system has ever been an option popular with kenyans. Parliament just has a bad reputation and kenya do not want their right to vote for PORK taken away from them - and given to the most corrupt and unaccountable group of self-serving people - who 70% have lost elections every election cycle since it was held in 1963.  The parliament that when it come to their self-interest (salaries and such) close ranks - and betray national interest.

What has always been on the table is a hybrid system. That was somehow destroyed in Naivasha and new animal Purely Presidential System was adopted.

You can blame Ruto all day but everyone knows it was Raila who turned 360% degrees to support this model because he was convinced then that with ICC hobbling his competitors - he had CLEAR SHOT AT PORK.

Kenyans as captured by Ruto at London are now saying we need the old system back. We need hybrid systems where losers - Raila and Kalonzos - don't end up jobless - but end up providing robust opposition - and get paid for it. It will also be helpful if Ministers were attending parliament as ex-offico members to answer questions, move bills and generally be accountable to kenyans too. Parliament should probably have vote of no confidence on some of the executive.

In short the old systems plus federalism or devolution works better.

[RV Pundit]

omollo, i am sure there is some hansard of the proceedings at Naivasha. What I recall is Raila(ODM) and Martha Karua going presidential - in a 360 degrees that baffled everyone.The two Rutos I think backed a mixed presidential systems. That is why Ruto and Kalenjin voted NO. Obviously whatever system - you beat in place - doesn't mean it's tailored made for you. That was Raila fault. And still is. The problem is not constitution. The problem is how to WIN POWER. It doesn't matter what system is called....the best will emerge.

[RV Pundit]

Omollo - don't twist history. Raila did this because he was strongest candidates - and only way for KKK was to form a coalition. COE and UhuRuto were favouring a hybrid systems - that would have something for all the 3 of them. Raila though he'd scuttle them by going full presidential...because he was only national leader at that point who'd be strong.

Of course he lost...because the problem is not the constitution....Britain don't even have it.

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000001542/why-odm-went-presidential

[Omollo]

It is disingenuous to quote a poorly written media story to further fudge a simple fact. Perhaps you could put in perspective this:

 

Omollo - don't twist history. Raila did this because he was strongest candidates - and only way for KKK was to form a coalition. COE and UhuRuto were favouring a hybrid systems - that would have something for all the 3 of them. Raila though he'd scuttle them by going full presidential...because he was only national leader at that point who'd be strong.

Of course he lost...because the problem is not the constitution....Britain don't even have it.

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000001542/why-odm-went-presidential

[RV Pundit]

Was Karua representing PNU which included Uhuru by any chance?

Fact is COE recommended Hybdrid system. ODM proposed pure presidential system - and was seconded by Karua - who was also in the anti-Ruto-Uhuru-Kalonzo team.

[Omollo]

Pundit

I really have no time to engage in post facto polemics over an issue as bright as the sun over Naivasha. I could as well dig up that hansard report for you and focus on the voting.

The fact is this: ODM PSC members allied to Ruto switched to join Uhuru and PNU in Naivasha, granting PNU a majority. Unless you mean Raila should have had them removed minutes before they voted you know PNU had gotten their prize: The Presidential System.

The import of the report you cite in the standard contradicts your position. I guess you didnt read and analyze it before you posted. Raila merely rubber stamped what had already passed. Like I stated he could have opposed it in line with the known ODM position. The report you cite seeks to explain the failure to oppose as was expected. His decision not to oppose irritated me a lot and I ventilated over the same for a long time ending by stating "Raila will regret this decision". Kajwang is quoted saying the same.

We can all speculate as to why he chose to give his blessings to the decision. My take is he thought he too could wield the same powers. I believe in not giving out powers based on the nature of the person who will exercise those powers. Michuki once said he doesn't think the presidential powers should be limited because it is no longer Moi occupying the office but Good Man Kibaki. The stupidity could not be more emphasized in 20 lifetimes!

Presidential systems have been a disaster for Africa. The most recent example is Zimbabwe which ran well until Mugabe decided his name needs to be read among the first when he attends the OAU and not have Canaan Banana go ahead of him. The rest is well known.

Kenya was on track to establish a viable democracy until Kenyatta and Mboya happened. They embarked on a systematic reclamation of power and concentration of the same in the presidency. Devolution did not die because it undermined anything - not even National Unity. It died because Tom Mboya while seeking power to bring to Kenyatta came over some power outside the presidency. Like a good worker bee finding a dying fly on some ground, he picked it and delivered to the Queen in this case shall we say Kikuyu Paramount Chief and waited his reward.

Okot was writing Song of a Soldier when he died. He writes about a soldier asking why he is given a gun if he is not allowed to kill with it. Bertolt Brecht raised the same subject. In short power if given will eventually be exercised. A monster created would eventually indulge his given traits. We create monsters and then react with horror when the monsters demand their kilo of meat with blood.

I will forever support a Parliamentary system and proportional representation. All places on earth where these two are practised are dazzling examples of democracy in practice.
   

omollo, i am sure there is some hansard of the proceedings at Naivasha. What I recall is Raila(ODM) and Martha Karua going presidential - in a 360 degrees that baffled everyone.The two Rutos I think backed a mixed presidential systems. That is why Ruto and Kalenjin voted NO. Obviously whatever system - you beat in place - doesn't mean it's tailored made for you. That was Raila fault. And still is. The problem is not constitution. The problem is how to WIN POWER. It doesn't matter what system is called....the best will emerge.

[RV Pundit]

The problem you, Raila and ODM voted YES YES YES..

Isaac Ruto rooted for parliamentary system to the hilt. ODM had their Bomas draft. PNU had theirs. PNU were willing to compromise and allow PM. ODM said NO. They rooted for pure presidential system. Ruto William said okay - if we go presidential - let also have strong regional gov guards against strong center - like in US or everywhere else.

When COE - went against that - and came up with 47 counties - Ruto William said no - Uhuru and Kalonzo abandoned him as Raila the idiot bullied everyone to support a system that he had spent a lifetime opposing - but the principled Ruto & RV - went on record and opposed the Katiba and voted NO.

ODM and Raila have no locus standi to speak about constitution now. That BBI thing is dead on water. Nobody ready to have the debate now.

I believe any system can work - it just need checks and balances.

Presidential system we have just need strong devolution or federalism. That is what RV always have wanted since 1960s. The Luos keep changing position depending on small childlike strategies...and are yet to enjoy any of those systems.

The parliamentary system will not work now. There is consensus even amongst the kikuyus about federalism. We need to embrace that.

Pundit

I really have no time to engage in post facto polemics over an issue as bright as the sun over Naivasha. I could as well dig up that hansard report for you and focus on the voting.

The fact is this: ODM PSC members allied to Ruto switched to join Uhuru and PNU in Naivasha, granting PNU a majority. Unless you mean Raila should have had them removed minutes before they voted you know PNU had gotten their prize: The Presidential System.

The import of the report you cite in the standard contradicts your position. I guess you didnt read and analyze it before you posted. Raila merely rubber stamped what had already passed. Like I stated he could have opposed it in line with the known ODM position. The report you cite seeks to explain the failure to oppose as was expected. His decision not to oppose irritated me a lot and I ventilated over the same for a long time ending by stating "Raila will regret this decision". Kajwang is quoted saying the same.

We can all speculate as to why he chose to give his blessings to the decision. My take is he thought he too could wield the same powers. I believe in not giving out powers based on the nature of the person who will exercise those powers. Michuki once said he doesn't think the presidential powers should be limited because it is no longer Moi occupying the office but Good Man Kibaki. The stupidity could not be more emphasized in 20 lifetimes!

Presidential systems have been a disaster for Africa. The most recent example is Zimbabwe which ran well until Mugabe decided his name needs to be read among the first when he attends the OAU and not have Canaan Banana go ahead of him. The rest is well known.

Kenya was on track to establish a viable democracy until Kenyatta and Mboya happened. They embarked on a systematic reclamation of power and concentration of the same in the presidency. Devolution did not die because it undermined anything - not even National Unity. It died because Tom Mboya while seeking power to bring to Kenyatta came over some power outside the presidency. Like a good worker bee finding a dying fly on some ground, he picked it and delivered to the Queen in this case shall we say Kikuyu Paramount Chief and waited his reward.

Okot was writing Song of a Soldier when he died. He writes about a soldier asking why he is given a gun if he is not allowed to kill with it. Bertolt Brecht raised the same subject. In short power if given will eventually be exercised. A monster created would eventually indulge his given traits. We create monsters and then react with horror when the monsters demand their kilo of meat with blood.

I will forever support a Parliamentary system and proportional representation. All places on earth where these two are practised are dazzling examples of democracy in practice.
   

omollo, i am sure there is some hansard of the proceedings at Naivasha. What I recall is Raila(ODM) and Martha Karua going presidential - in a 360 degrees that baffled everyone.The two Rutos I think backed a mixed presidential systems. That is why Ruto and Kalenjin voted NO. Obviously whatever system - you beat in place - doesn't mean it's tailored made for you. That was Raila fault. And still is. The problem is not constitution. The problem is how to WIN POWER. It doesn't matter what system is called....the best will emerge.

[Omollo]

Pundit

I invented this style of argument. You know it. It involves fudging everything and lowering it to the level of a mama mboga. Because you know mama mboga won't bother with the finer details of compley political discourse.

The bottom line is Ruto dumped ODM and its position and granted PNU a majority in PSC. When it happened you and I were aghast. I remain so. You moved on. The rest especially your new position mere subterfuge and a poor attempt at re-writing history.

I wanted Raila to oppose it and we go to the referendum and deliver a NO. But what would we end up with? The answer: The very Presidential System we would be opposing.

The problem you, Raila and ODM voted YES YES YES..

Isaac Ruto rooted for parliamentary system to the hilt. ODM had their Bomas draft. PNU had theirs. PNU were willing to compromise and allow PM. ODM said NO. They rooted for pure presidential system. Ruto William said okay - if we go presidential - let also have strong regional gov guards against strong center - like in US or everywhere else.

When COE - went against that - and came up with 47 counties - Ruto William said no - Uhuru and Kalonzo abandoned him as Raila the idiot bullied everyone to support a system that he had spent a lifetime opposing - but the principled Ruto & RV - went on record and opposed the Katiba and voted NO.

ODM and Raila have no locus standi to speak about constitution now. That BBI thing is dead on water. Nobody ready to have the debate now.

I believe any system can work - it just need checks and balances.

Presidential system we have just need strong devolution or federalism. That is what RV always have wanted since 1960s. The Luos keep changing position depending on small childlike strategies...and are yet to enjoy any of those systems.

The parliamentary system will not work now. There is consensus even amongst the kikuyus about federalism. We need to embrace that.

Pundit

I really have no time to engage in post facto polemics over an issue as bright as the sun over Naivasha. I could as well dig up that hansard report for you and focus on the voting.

The fact is this: ODM PSC members allied to Ruto switched to join Uhuru and PNU in Naivasha, granting PNU a majority. Unless you mean Raila should have had them removed minutes before they voted you know PNU had gotten their prize: The Presidential System.

The import of the report you cite in the standard contradicts your position. I guess you didnt read and analyze it before you posted. Raila merely rubber stamped what had already passed. Like I stated he could have opposed it in line with the known ODM position. The report you cite seeks to explain the failure to oppose as was expected. His decision not to oppose irritated me a lot and I ventilated over the same for a long time ending by stating "Raila will regret this decision". Kajwang is quoted saying the same.

We can all speculate as to why he chose to give his blessings to the decision. My take is he thought he too could wield the same powers. I believe in not giving out powers based on the nature of the person who will exercise those powers. Michuki once said he doesn't think the presidential powers should be limited because it is no longer Moi occupying the office but Good Man Kibaki. The stupidity could not be more emphasized in 20 lifetimes!

Presidential systems have been a disaster for Africa. The most recent example is Zimbabwe which ran well until Mugabe decided his name needs to be read among the first when he attends the OAU and not have Canaan Banana go ahead of him. The rest is well known.

Kenya was on track to establish a viable democracy until Kenyatta and Mboya happened. They embarked on a systematic reclamation of power and concentration of the same in the presidency. Devolution did not die because it undermined anything - not even National Unity. It died because Tom Mboya while seeking power to bring to Kenyatta came over some power outside the presidency. Like a good worker bee finding a dying fly on some ground, he picked it and delivered to the Queen in this case shall we say Kikuyu Paramount Chief and waited his reward.

Okot was writing Song of a Soldier when he died. He writes about a soldier asking why he is given a gun if he is not allowed to kill with it. Bertolt Brecht raised the same subject. In short power if given will eventually be exercised. A monster created would eventually indulge his given traits. We create monsters and then react with horror when the monsters demand their kilo of meat with blood.

I will forever support a Parliamentary system and proportional representation. All places on earth where these two are practised are dazzling examples of democracy in practice.
   

omollo, i am sure there is some hansard of the proceedings at Naivasha. What I recall is Raila(ODM) and Martha Karua going presidential - in a 360 degrees that baffled everyone.The two Rutos I think backed a mixed presidential systems. That is why Ruto and Kalenjin voted NO. Obviously whatever system - you beat in place - doesn't mean it's tailored made for you. That was Raila fault. And still is. The problem is not constitution. The problem is how to WIN POWER. It doesn't matter what system is called....the best will emerge.

[Omollo]

BTW Pundit, I just read The Ethnic Rag saying Governors and MPs are abandoning HMS Ruto like scared rats. You still haven't read the writing on the wall behind  Billy Ruto?

[RV Pundit]

Which governors and mps - as long as Ruto is going to face Raila or the current crop of jokers - he is sleepwalking to PORK.

BTW Pundit, I just read The Ethnic Rag saying Governors and MPs are abandoning HMS Ruto like scared rats. You still haven't read the writing on the wall behind  Billy Ruto?