Author Topic: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer  (Read 4939 times)

Offline KenyanPlato

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Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« on: October 26, 2018, 04:53:45 PM »
I participate grudgingly knowing the end result is disaster

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2018, 08:10:30 PM »
Any system not done in moderation is a recipe for disaster.  There is no magic bullet.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2018, 09:08:25 AM »
No other system has lifted that many out of poverty. Capitalism is the nearest to the natural order of things. Survival for the fittest. It just need heavy regulation and moderation to protect the weak. That is what makes us human. Not animals. That battle really ought to be on what the form and extend of those regulation are....to make sure the strong continue generating wealth while the weak are assured of at least some basic human needs. And that generally takes the form of strong, stable and reliable gov.

Communism and all the systems based on egalitarianism although very appealing are simply un-natural.

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2018, 11:11:26 AM »
No other system has lifted that many out of poverty. Capitalism is the nearest to the natural order of things. Survival for the fittest. It just need heavy regulation and moderation to protect the weak. That is what makes us human. Not animals. That battle really ought to be on what the form and extend of those regulation are....to make sure the strong continue generating wealth while the weak are assured of at least some basic human needs. And that generally takes the form of strong, stable and reliable gov.

Communism and all the systems based on egalitarianism although very appealing are simply un-natural.
I thought of it this way until I started looking under the hood. What you are thinking of is a anarchy. This What we had in Kenya before Europeans. We need more anarchy less capitalism

Offline veritas

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2018, 01:34:54 PM »
Human beings are savages. No system will ever work for humans. I'm surprised capitalism even got this far and more people aren't carrying guns demanding resources. That may be the case if there weren't babies and kids. Should be a social experiment. Have a room full of single childless savages like me and one with parents whose lives just suck and give them each money to buy stuff from food to big ticket items in 12 hours to see if they collaborate to buy big ticket comfort items or buy food rations etc.

I predict the parents will choose food items and the singles will poole funds to see a stripper strut. Of course there would need to be checks and balances to ensure the simulation felt real.The worst of ethics is the best of science.

Correct me if im wrong?

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2018, 07:10:33 PM »
No other system has lifted that many out of poverty. Capitalism is the nearest to the natural order of things. Survival for the fittest. It just need heavy regulation and moderation to protect the weak. That is what makes us human. Not animals. That battle really ought to be on what the form and extend of those regulation are....to make sure the strong continue generating wealth while the weak are assured of at least some basic human needs. And that generally takes the form of strong, stable and reliable gov.

Communism and all the systems based on egalitarianism although very appealing are simply un-natural.

I agree.  I see "both" systems as two ends of a continuum in the real world.  You always have elements of both.  Even in USSR, there was still some private ownership of property and means of production.  One extreme you have libertarians and the other you have marxists.  In the West Scandinavian countries have a reputation for strong socialism.  Europe in general is also socialistic.  America in comparison is extreme capitalist.  Compared to Democrats the conservative parties in Europe seem socialist.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 05:53:35 PM »
No other system has lifted that many out of poverty. Capitalism is the nearest to the natural order of things. Survival for the fittest. It just need heavy regulation and moderation to protect the weak. That is what makes us human. Not animals. That battle really ought to be on what the form and extend of those regulation are....to make sure the strong continue generating wealth while the weak are assured of at least some basic human needs. And that generally takes the form of strong, stable and reliable gov.

Communism and all the systems based on egalitarianism although very appealing are simply un-natural.

Pundit, I disagree with you. Capitalism is not natural. The more I think about it the more I'm sure. Think about it, in the old days, there was no such thing as a homeless person. What kind of world is it where you are born and there's no place to make a home unless you or your folks first pay? Unnatural. I think we've become so accustomed to it that we confuse this familiarity with what is natural. Humans naturally are not solitary cats like Capitalism presumes. Imagine in a few short centuries, capitalism has wrought large scale race-based slavery, colonialism and the extinction of entire peoples and now the real possibility of destroying the entire race itself is staring us in the face. I don't think any of it is natural, but rather quite contrary. It brings lots of good things but it seems the price we pay is bigger and bigger risks to the very survival of entire groups or the species itself. I'm no longer convinced that's a smart trade-off.

Not that communism is natural.

What's natural to humans is something very close to the hunter-gatherer society. Not even the agricultural/animal-rearing societies, no. The hunter-gatherers. The challenge is how to marry the virtues of those ancient, most natural ways of human living, with modern goodies in a way that's workable. I was reading about the Bushmen. Some anthropologists believe they are literally the most successful human civilization that has ever existed. 150,000 years plus (maybe longer according to some). And they weren't starving either despite living in a dessert for a good amount of that time. Now, thanks to modern encroachment things have shifted greatly for them in just a few decades. How do we borrow what's good from them? Swala nyeti!

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 03:39:44 AM »
Kadame you have really analyzed this well. This where I have come to after doing my own research.

Came across this. If you live in us for longtime this explains a lot of things

 

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2018, 05:22:55 PM »
Interesting and insightful. I think by natural - I meant the system closes to 'survival for the fittest" which is the natural order of things would be the present day capitalism. Obviously you still need some form of gov to avoid anarchy and help the poor/needy. Capitalism doesn't mean people won't cooperate but that is not the same as communism or socialism. The cooperation is not forced, it's mutual. There is a lot of cooperation in capitalism - that is why people form companies. The idea that you can force people to cooperate or to be compassionate is why communism failed everywhere it was tried. And really even the hunter-gatherer system is more capitalism than communism - the most hardworking hunter get the biggest share of the hunt - grow richer - his family better  - than the lazy one.They are still "homeless" hunter-gather. There was poverty even in traditional african socities. In our place it could mean someone who was so poor he had no cattle. Lots of people still starved to death or slept hungry those days.

For me capitalism is acceptance that the best hunter almost always get the big hunt - and that motivate pretty much everyone to go out there, work hard and bring the dinner home. Hunters can form alliance or cooperative like lions do to hunt big animals - but end of the day - it's mutual and there is probably an understanding that whoever contribute the most - get the most.

If we somehow had a system where a king or leader was to force people to cooperate so they can hunt and then proceed to share the hunt equally - such a system would soon collapse for lack of incentive and motivation -- and leader will resort to beating up or torturing the lazy bones in vain.

I think the most sustainable and successfully societies are those that those that embrace capitalism but protect the weak through socialism. There are of course people no system can protect. US homeless for example are probably drug junkies who will squander their social welfare checks anyway.

No other system has lifted that many out of poverty. Capitalism is the nearest to the natural order of things. Survival for the fittest. It just need heavy regulation and moderation to protect the weak. That is what makes us human. Not animals. That battle really ought to be on what the form and extend of those regulation are....to make sure the strong continue generating wealth while the weak are assured of at least some basic human needs. And that generally takes the form of strong, stable and reliable gov.

Communism and all the systems based on egalitarianism although very appealing are simply un-natural.

Pundit, I disagree with you. Capitalism is not natural. The more I think about it the more I'm sure. Think about it, in the old days, there was no such thing as a homeless person. What kind of world is it where you are born and there's no place to make a home unless you or your folks first pay? Unnatural. I think we've become so accustomed to it that we confuse this familiarity with what is natural. Humans naturally are not solitary cats like Capitalism presumes. Imagine in a few short centuries, capitalism has wrought large scale race-based slavery, colonialism and the extinction of entire peoples and now the real possibility of destroying the entire race itself is staring us in the face. I don't think any of it is natural, but rather quite contrary. It brings lots of good things but it seems the price we pay is bigger and bigger risks to the very survival of entire groups or the species itself. I'm no longer convinced that's a smart trade-off.

Not that communism is natural.

What's natural to humans is something very close to the hunter-gatherer society. Not even the agricultural/animal-rearing societies, no. The hunter-gatherers. The challenge is how to marry the virtues of those ancient, most natural ways of human living, with modern goodies in a way that's workable. I was reading about the Bushmen. Some anthropologists believe they are literally the most successful human civilization that has ever existed. 150,000 years plus (maybe longer according to some). And they weren't starving either despite living in a dessert for a good amount of that time. Now, thanks to modern encroachment things have shifted greatly for them in just a few decades. How do we borrow what's good from them? Swala nyeti!

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2018, 07:11:17 PM »
Kadame you have really analyzed this well. This where I have come to after doing my own research.

Came across this. If you live in us for longtime this explains a lot of things

 
Wow! KenyanPlato, thank you! I knew my hunch was right but this video does such a good job of explaining things. Thank you so much!

Yes, it's 100% true what he says: Outside clear disasters or war, no one suffered from basic insecurities in traditional, tribal societies. Things like food and shelter were a given unless the community as a whole was struck with disaster. Capitalism/neoliberalism strips us of our natural social bonds in exchange for material goodies. It's so sad.

@Pundit, I think you should watch that 14 minute clip, it does a very good job of explaining how this system has over a few hundred years transformed human society in ways that are paradoxically positive and also very, very negative.

I agree with you about Communism. That kind of large-scale, top down forced 'co-operation' does not work. Communists and other Marxists were absolutely right in their critiques of Capitalism but they did not come up with good solutions. In fact, their solution was to maintain the basic structure of Capitalism and just switch who was in power and who was powerless.

Offline veritas

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 04:06:10 AM »
please don't watch that clip. nonsense. there's no such thing as neo-liberal anxiety.

political models are one thing, mental disorders are another and is tethered with culture, upbringing and a whole host of case by case circumstances. not all countries have high suicide rates as a result of capitalism. you may want to blame the media and consumerism for that to who knows.

communism failed. it was idealised by marx and the frankfurt school but didn't work. nearly worked under lenin but that was under an agrarian society, during war, famine, transition away from a monarchy and before modern science.

capitalism is merely a money system. let's not forget the underlying tenants of capitalism - freedom. people can own what they want and do what they want. the lack of insurance, buffers, checks and balances led to the great depression (from a money perspective). the history of capitalism is complex and evolved from feudalism, religion, old mercantile days. like when they used to use shells for money. communism is just a philosophy like feng shui, it didn't work and leftists are milking it with propaganda maybe to disrupt the status quo like angry teens. it's a beautiful ideal but its like building a sandcastle under the condition everyone is learned, healthy and nice. in reality if you push someone into a corner they'll defend themselves whatever it takes. survival of the fittest.

i'm not a psychologist so i can't comment on why the masses are depressed. these things are case by case and not something that can be generalised. while i was doing my mental health course we went through trends. suicide rates differed between ages and gender. however overall spikes happened during crises like the IMF, great depression etc. global economic crises. were people more lonely during those times? like some brooding isolated teen? no. these suicides happened because he couldn't provide for his family due to no fault of his own. he was let go because of hard economic times. this is a govt responsibility and these things shape political trajectory.

does capitalism need to evolve? yes. AI is disruptive, the nature of jobs will change, more skilled labor, more programmers, more renewable energy, more lifestyle changes, more checks and balances to make the future work. is there room for centrist left and centrist right in this political dynamism? no. what traditionally defined these dynamics will need to evolve too. what is surprising is that the left seems to be disintegrating and the right seems to be evolving. the world works today because of republican policies. democrats policies are a minorty force. labor markets today are kept in check because of republican arms. it rewards the strong and abolishes the weak. for the left to survive the onslaught of fake news, fake ideals and general lack of direction, it may need to turn to mother nature. that was actually the essence of marxism. the need to take care of nature, the role of women. i noticed whenever political trajectories evolved there were women involved. like a birthing of something, a sign of new times.

in a nutshell, superman hottie henry pls spank me sums it up perfectly... btw i'm battling a fever... i tend to get around this time of the year hence bingewatching.


Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2018, 06:37:57 AM »
Veritas
The clip is explaining the evolution from Keynesian economic model to the current Hayek model under neoliberalism. Keynesian and Neoliberal theories are capitalistic theories that organize capitalism under a hieracal model. Where the nation state is key to this model. The Neoliberalism advocates free market economy where everything is a commodity. Society never functioned as such. We are social beings so trying to remake the society to be more selfish has led to current unprecedented mental health problems.

In America one of the richest countries in the world you will find higher suicide rates. It seems odd that the higher the social mobility the worse mental state a nation finds itself in.
Then you have the eldery. Due to isolation you find that poor mental health to be the biggest reason for hospitalization and instutionalization.

I just did a crash course of neoliberalism and it is fanscinating.

I think the biggest problem with us is that we want undo the natural order of things. To do so you ran into forces seen and unseen and end up in a ditch. The universe observes certain patterns and laws that we are ill equipped to ubderstand.

No one is advocating for communists. I am just acknowledging that they were right that capitalism will eventually cause heart ache 

Offline veritas

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 07:51:21 AM »
The clip is nonsense. There are Keynesian theories - overrated by the media but there's no such thing as neoliberalism. Neoliberalism isn't a valid political theory. I have a degree in politics and have worked in politics. Do you mean liberal democracy?

Depression, isolation and mental disorders could be many things like consumerism, media, broken homes etc. as comes with no money, too much money, too many choices, freedom, personal reasons that don't just happen under capitalism. Same thing happens under a monarchy, autocracy and not just with democratic regimes (underbelly of capitalism). Capitalism hasn't yet flourished in countries like Kenya because the checks and balances are expensive. A statehood is granted by the UN. Not all countries are granted own sovereignty eg. Palestine. The US is barely a nation-state more just a state.

I think the premise of what you're getting at is that homogenous countries - one tribe dominating, are happier. That is a fact. Multi-culturalism which is prevalent in liberal democracies under capital model - aren't as happy. Capitalist countries with dominant ethnic group are happier. Those with a history and nationhood are a happier society over those granted a statehood without a nationhood - usual case for thriving liberal democracies like the USA.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 08:22:17 AM »
Veri, you're talking as if criticizing capitalism means praising communism. At least, speaking for myself, I'm not asking for communism. I'm asking for a third way.

Loneliness is fast becoming a big crisis in the West. That's the truth. And in poor countries too that are getting more and more urbanized.

Everything is not a commodity and shouldn't be but neoliberals think like that on everything. That's why they think universal healthcare and other safety nets are some kind of thievery. It too is a philosophical model, it has underlying assumptions and axioms like all other world views. The chief underlying assumption is that a human being is fundamentally a solitary animal with virtually no ties or responsibilities to anyone else "in the state of nature" and this is the fundamental organizing principle of the whole thing and it is a lie. So it too is just a philosophy and some of the suppositions of this philosophy are wrong.

Offline veritas

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2018, 10:21:28 AM »
Kadame, would you call a psychologist a neopsychologist because they're obsessed with money? These neo- terms are used by confused antiquities peeps projecting neoclassical social theories onto political theories or by confused propagandists like that clip in their lonely sordid fantasy to make sense of the fakeness in the world today, but their understanding of the world is psychotic and don't actually exist beyond their conspiracy bubble. Whoever made that clip needs therapy. Neoliberalism and neoliberals mean nothing other than a social slur.

Who you describe are conservatives. Communism is the lesser of the two evils- the other end of the spectrum is Nazism and see how I don't even mention that. Healthcare and education are left wing policies, it's just a matter of how taxes should be spent. There's no economic gain in investing in healthcare and education and that's a fact. The conservatives want the weak and poor to die off because they think the world is overpopulated. What better way to determine who lives and dies by having a price tag on it? In places with universal healthcare, it doesn't matter how much money you have, you'll be on a waiting list and you won't get the treatment you want because resources are rationed and evidence-based to only support candidates who don't smoke etc. If you're a rich fat man, you won't get the kidney over a poor child. That's the problem conservatives see. If money was spent on education, you have poor ethnic kids getting educated leading to more demand for white collar jobs, more ethnics becoming equal to whites and less slaves doing laborous roles that make the economy work. The world needs more janitors than they do fat rich men. That's the problem conservatives see. Think of them as cloaked Nazis. It's sinister and they hide behind religion to justify such racist policies.

I don't know about the solitary mammal but technology may have precipitated it. I'm with you on a third way though and OO has been singing about it for years.

Offline audacityofhope

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2018, 12:54:34 PM »
And somewhere in RV sh*thole, that system has consigned them deeper into poverty. Once upon a time including when Moi was President, Kales used to sell maize to pay school fees. Now the next crop is being harvested yet the previous crop taken to NCPB silos has not been paid.  :(
In case you are wondering how, Alfie Keter breaks it down slowly..... slowly....

?s=19

No other system has lifted that many out of poverty.  yada yada yada .....

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2018, 05:45:44 PM »
Very
You are just splitting hairs. The neo is these words is to explain the change of liberL theory. A neonazi is just a mordern day Nazi.

The biggest revelation to me was about this new liberal idea. I didn't realize it was prescribed in west before being imposed on third world countries ...

The video is not a conspirancy but a simple way fo explain physchological changes due to sociopolitical and economic changes ...there scientific. Studies that explain this further ....
 

Offline veritas

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2018, 12:16:11 AM »
Try calling a racist prick a neonazi. Same way if you called a democrat a neoliberal or neoliberal institutionalist or whatever they call tree huggers these days or a conservative a neorealist - it's inappropriate. These labels may sell in academic circles because its such a myopic sector but its frightfully inappropriate in practice. The world is a bigger place.

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2018, 02:07:06 AM »
Try calling a racist prick a neonazi. Same way if you called a democrat a neoliberal or neoliberal institutionalist or whatever they call tree huggers these days or a conservative a neorealist - it's inappropriate. These labels may sell in academic circles because its such a myopic sector but its frightfully inappropriate in practice. The world is a bigger place.

Is there a difference between a racist and a new Nazi? Should we differentiate between a grandpa that fought Nazi and is racist and his grand son that believes Nazis we right and their ideology should be implemented

Offline veritas

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Re: Communists were right that capitalism is a cancer
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 04:47:23 AM »
No, there isn't a difference. People who believe in Nazi ideologies are called racists.