Author Topic: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)  (Read 5296 times)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2018, 04:37:05 PM »
Mr bitmask, Glad you inch towards reality. I don't buy the Kadame line that civilization or development is cyclical and the ancient African was a global leader at some point. I have not seen technology or inventions beyond the Pyramids and the Scroll to impress the ancient African's industry upon mu pessimism.

This is important because if the African's diagnosis was a concensus, perhaps a solution would be in sight. The American taps global manpower elaborately via the Green Card. The South African is busy evicting remnant white capital... upon which I'm vehement.

That's just history.  Most of it North African.  The Sub-Saharan probably didn't have much beyond a hoe and a spear.  Primitive societies.  That's all it is.  Not inferior people.  You are conflating knowledge with innate ability.  The tragedy for me is not in the the helplessness of the Negro, but in repeated missed opportunities to tap into his potential.

I do not see the need to point to some past achievement when I know you can take a child from Lake Turkana living in the stone age and turn him into a rocket scientist, something that nobody was doing a few generations ago even in the advanced West. 

I know its cliche, but I think colonialism and the way it lumped together different groups of Africans did do a number.  It introduced some modern ways into the system, but it is ridiculous to think that we would not have been exposed to them without being colonized.  It would still have happened by diffusion and trade.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 06:17:53 PM »
You're right except you're hard on Africans. Africa was mostly a closed continent - it didn't benefit from all inventions and innovations - both economic or political or social - until colonoliasm.Why it didn't benefit - possibly due to malaria and other climatic conditions that made Africa hard to conquer until the late 19th century. Now barely 100yrs since Africa was mainstreamed into the modern world we want it to compare and compete with Europe (with solid 1000 yrs of advancement) or Japan or China with even older civilisation.

What Africa has done the last 100yrs for me is nothing but commendable. You need to understand 100yrs in human modern history is very very short period. Africa rise is inevitable.

If you want to understand why Africa or XYZ is the way it is - look at it at micro level - at your family level. My paternal late great grandfather born in 19th century was basically unschooled and died early 1930s - like the rest of Africans - after living a short brutish life. He only had 1 son and I think 2 daughters. My paternal great grandfather had better luck because he was born around 1915 - and died around 1994 -about 80yrs - with my paternal grand-mother - they bore 9 kids - 8 sons and 1 daughter - which according to her was miracle - all thanks to medical invention of the white man - of course they were unschooled.My father born in 1940s studied with great difficulty and eventually did his A levels in 1980s as teacher aged in 40s - and got even more kids - now it our generation - who probably didn't struggle a lot to study and are mostly living comfortable middle class life. If you ask me - who in our many generation of family failed? What more did you want my great grandfather to do except till Mzungu farm in exchange for pasture. What did you want my great father to do that he didn't do? How would you berate my father who like many worked extremely hard to see us in school and saved enough to acquire some wealth? What have our generation done that you can say we failed - we studied harder than anyone this world san maybe chinese - carried 20 books to schools kilometers away and studied under little resources & still made the best we could? Our Kids are probably now enjoying just about the same lifestyle and education opportunities a white kid has.

This story is the same with other families. There is nothing wrong with Africa or Africans. We just need Time. And Time in this case is not 10yrs - it 100yrs - in fact African will probably the first race to turn from primitive man to modern man in 150yrs. And I am not talking about one turkana boy - but the whole of Turkana turning into the average modern man. Of course there are probably 100M Africans living in Africa living as good life as anyone anywhere in the world - Kenya alone has more than 10,000 dollar millionaires. But the fortunes of entire country and continent takes time....the average has to move painstakingly slowly...a single percentage...every year...and that to me is worth celebration. Otherwise you won't be there 100yrs later when Africa will be at par with everyone.

Give Africa TIME.

That's just history.  Most of it North African.  The Sub-Saharan probably didn't have much beyond a hoe and a spear.  Primitive societies.  That's all it is.  Not inferior people.  You are conflating knowledge with innate ability.  The tragedy for me is not in the the helplessness of the Negro, but in repeated missed opportunities to tap into his potential.

I do not see the need to point to some past achievement when I know you can take a child from Lake Turkana living in the stone age and turn him into a rocket scientist, something that nobody was doing a few generations ago even in the advanced West. 

I know its cliche, but I think colonialism and the way it lumped together different groups of Africans did do a number.  It introduced some modern ways into the system, but it is ridiculous to think that we would not have been exposed to them without being colonized.  It would still have happened by diffusion and trade.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2018, 07:48:57 PM »
Mr bitmask, Glad you inch towards reality. I don't buy the Kadame line that civilization or development is cyclical and the ancient African was a global leader at some point. I have not seen technology or inventions beyond the Pyramid and the Scroll to impress the ancient African's industry upon my pessimism.

This is important because if the African's diagnosis was a concensus, perhaps a solution would be in sight. The American taps global manpower elaborately via the Green Card. The South African is busy evicting remnant white capital... upon which I'm vehement.

I'd like first of all a link to the thread/post where Kadame made this rubbish claim first, please, before things proceed.

Robina, the thing I despise about you is your ability to make s*** straight up, put it in my mouth and then pretend to be disputing stuff I've never said on this planet since the day of my birth. Please just stop this. It's grating. If you are not interested in actually reading what people say, don't bother responding to it, mkay?

I have never said that Africans were global leaders. I do have a brain and access to books and history, okay? Nor have I ever claimed that develpment is "cyclical"....the hell does that even mean, "cyclical development"? smh.

Robina hears you say one thing, like human societies have followed the same patterns of evolution (not talking about biological evolution here but the change of human social organization in the past 5,000 years or so) and then she decides this means she can donate to you every silly argument she's heard/seen from misinformed "black power" idiots arguing in youtube comments and what-have-you. It's super annoying.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2018, 08:11:36 PM »
As to the topic, I agree with Pundit and Termi. For whatever reason, civilization sprung up around the Mediterranean. All peoples that were not cut off from it eventually were influenced by it through colonization, trade and other forms of diffusion as Termi puts it.

Britain well under 2000 years ago was a place full of mud huts and so-called primitive savages whom Roman missionaries were afraid to visit due to their so-called primitive and savage ways. People love to lump all Europeans together as if all Europeans were the Romans and the Greeks when these were two very, very tiny groups of peoples in a very small corner of the world that was perpetually and very connected to Asia.

The same Romans that conquered Britain and Ireland also conquered North Africa and parts of Asia. Were it not for the jungles and desserts, there's really no reason to think they, or the Greeks before them or the Persians before them would have failed to colonize even Cape Point and Mombasa at the same time as they were colonizing the "savage/primitive" folk of Britain.

Lots of peoples around the world that were disconnected and did not discover agriculture were not all that different from Africans before colonization came upon them, just like the Irish were not that different before colonization, and even on our continent, these changes were still happening at different paces in different societies by the advent of colonialism 200 years ago, sometimes because of diffusion through the Arabs.

Offline vooke

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2018, 11:11:00 PM »
Mr bitmask, Glad you inch towards reality. I don't buy the Kadame line that civilization or development is cyclical and the ancient African was a global leader at some point. I have not seen technology or inventions beyond the Pyramid and the Scroll to impress the ancient African's industry upon my pessimism.

This is important because if the African's diagnosis was a concensus, perhaps a solution would be in sight. The American taps global manpower elaborately via the Green Card. The South African is busy evicting remnant white capital... upon which I'm vehement.

I'd like first of all a link to the thread/post where Kadame made this rubbish claim first, please, before things proceed.

Robina, the thing I despise about you is your ability to make s*** straight up, put it in my mouth and then pretend to be disputing stuff I've never said on this planet since the day of my birth. Please just stop this. It's grating. If you are not interested in actually reading what people say, don't bother responding to it, mkay?

I have never said that Africans were global leaders. I do have a brain and access to books and history, okay? Nor have I ever claimed that develpment is "cyclical"....the hell does that even mean, "cyclical development"? smh.

Robina hears you say one thing, like human societies have followed the same patterns of evolution (not talking about biological evolution here but the change of human social organization in the past 5,000 years or so) and then she decides this means she can donate to you every silly argument she's heard/seen from misinformed "black power" idiots arguing in youtube comments and what-have-you. It's super annoying.
Get a room both of you
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2018, 11:20:27 PM »
No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2018, 12:55:23 AM »
That's just history.  Most of it North African.  The Sub-Saharan probably didn't have much beyond a hoe and a spear.  Primitive societies.  That's all it is.  Not inferior people.  You are conflating knowledge with innate ability.  The tragedy for me is not in the the helplessness of the Negro, but in repeated missed opportunities to tap into his potential.

I do not see the need to point to some past achievement when I know you can take a child from Lake Turkana living in the stone age and turn him into a rocket scientist, something that nobody was doing a few generations ago even in the advanced West. 

I know its cliche, but I think colonialism and the way it lumped together different groups of Africans did do a number.  It introduced some modern ways into the system, but it is ridiculous to think that we would not have been exposed to them without being colonized.  It would still have happened by diffusion and trade.

This analogy is faulty: anyone can ride a Ferrari the issue is earning it.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2018, 01:09:45 AM »
I'd like first of all a link to the thread/post where Kadame made this rubbish claim first, please, before things proceed.

Robina, the thing I despise about you is your ability to make s*** straight up, put it in my mouth and then pretend to be disputing stuff I've never said on this planet since the day of my birth. Please just stop this. It's grating. If you are not interested in actually reading what people say, don't bother responding to it, mkay?

I have never said that Africans were global leaders. I do have a brain and access to books and history, okay? Nor have I ever claimed that develpment is "cyclical"....the hell does that even mean, "cyclical development"? smh.

Robina hears you say one thing, like human societies have followed the same patterns of evolution (not talking about biological evolution here but the change of human social organization in the past 5,000 years or so) and then she decides this means she can donate to you every silly argument she's heard/seen from misinformed "black power" idiots arguing in youtube comments and what-have-you. It's super annoying.

Grow up. This is a blog not a courtroom. Mentioning you does not make you grow a tail. I mention others all the time you don't see them overreacting like you.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2018, 01:10:31 AM »
Kadame to level up the despise is mutual. You are immature.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2018, 02:03:10 AM »
I'd like first of all a link to the thread/post where Kadame made this rubbish claim first, please, before things proceed.

Robina, the thing I despise about you is your ability to make s*** straight up, put it in my mouth and then pretend to be disputing stuff I've never said on this planet since the day of my birth. Please just stop this. It's grating. If you are not interested in actually reading what people say, don't bother responding to it, mkay?

I have never said that Africans were global leaders. I do have a brain and access to books and history, okay? Nor have I ever claimed that develpment is "cyclical"....the hell does that even mean, "cyclical development"? smh.

Robina hears you say one thing, like human societies have followed the same patterns of evolution (not talking about biological evolution here but the change of human social organization in the past 5,000 years or so) and then she decides this means she can donate to you every silly argument she's heard/seen from misinformed "black power" idiots arguing in youtube comments and what-have-you. It's super annoying.

Grow up. This is a blog not a courtroom. Mentioning you does not make you grow a tail. I mention others all the time you don't see them overreacting like you.
You don't mention me, you straight up lie about what I said. And you make a habit of it too, this not the first time.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2018, 02:05:00 AM »
Kadame to level up the despise is mutual. You are immature.
Good that's out of the way. Now don't pretend to respond to stuff I never said. And PS, I didn't say I despised YOU. I despise how you straight up makeup things I never said and attribute them to me. And usually its the most inane arguments that you donate, not even halfway decent ones. Thats worse than a strawman. It's just a clever way of calling someone an idiot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2018, 04:24:20 PM »
That's just history.  Most of it North African.  The Sub-Saharan probably didn't have much beyond a hoe and a spear.  Primitive societies.  That's all it is.  Not inferior people.  You are conflating knowledge with innate ability.  The tragedy for me is not in the the helplessness of the Negro, but in repeated missed opportunities to tap into his potential.

I do not see the need to point to some past achievement when I know you can take a child from Lake Turkana living in the stone age and turn him into a rocket scientist, something that nobody was doing a few generations ago even in the advanced West. 

I know its cliche, but I think colonialism and the way it lumped together different groups of Africans did do a number.  It introduced some modern ways into the system, but it is ridiculous to think that we would not have been exposed to them without being colonized.  It would still have happened by diffusion and trade.

This analogy is faulty: anyone can ride a Ferrari the issue is earning it.

That would be a valid point if one pretends that a child in Lodwar has the same opportunity to earn it as a trust fund baby.  And yet tellingly some still make it in spite of the odds.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2018, 04:35:38 PM »
No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.
Things are very simple imo. Our biggest headache has been our leaders and their most potent tools have been the state and the "toxic diversity" you mention. We are an unlucky people.

Offline vooke

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2018, 07:37:03 PM »
No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.
Things are very simple imo. Our biggest headache has been our leaders and their most potent tools have been the state and the "toxic diversity" you mention. We are an unlucky people.
Methinks they would still persist in their devious ways our diversity notwithstanding

2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2018, 09:55:20 PM »
No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.
Things are very simple imo. Our biggest headache has been our leaders and their most potent tools have been the state and the "toxic diversity" you mention. We are an unlucky people.
Methinks they would still persist in their devious ways our diversity notwithstanding



But with less potent tools.  If everyone is a Kale, it might be more difficult to distract them from the fact that their leader is a thief by pointing a finger at non-existent Luo pretenders.  If I recall correctly Pundit once suggested that Kalenjin do not consider stealing from other tribes a crime.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2018, 09:08:06 AM »
No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.
Things are very simple imo. Our biggest headache has been our leaders and their most potent tools have been the state and the "toxic diversity" you mention. We are an unlucky people.
Methinks they would still persist in their devious ways our diversity notwithstanding



But with less potent tools.  If everyone is a Kale, it might be more difficult to distract them from the fact that their leader is a thief by pointing a finger at non-existent Luo pretenders.  If I recall correctly Pundit once suggested that Kalenjin do not consider stealing from other tribes a crime.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2018, 09:17:07 AM »
Why do you & bitmask divorce leadership from the other backwardness and problems bedeviling us. Our quality of leadership right from the cattle dip committee to the president is just the reflection of us. Poor decision making - and with dearth of opportunities to make money (again due to our poverty) they see it a way to make money. You cannot compare the leadership of the kindergarten committee in some boston neighberhood with say the one in my local area.
Things are very simple imo. Our biggest headache has been our leaders and their most potent tools have been the state and the "toxic diversity" you mention. We are an unlucky people.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2018, 10:58:51 AM »
Robina, you are right. I overreacted before. I could have just disputed that I said the things you said I said, the rest was completely unnecesssary, especially the thing about "despising". I apologize.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2018, 11:03:47 AM »
Pundit, maybe you are right. Vooke, I dont know why you struggle with the issue of toxic diversity. At the very least it has been something that has allowed us to settle for subpar performance even in places like the Capital where most people should have the highest expectations. The ethnic math our politics is based on is surely a big obstacle even down to clan levels. There is just no way you get good leaders in such a diverse country as Kenya once ethnic maths becomes the main calculation in politics.

If we had one dominant group, say 75% of the country belonging to one group, I'd say it would be less of a problem. But when you have even the biggest groups with a share of only like 20% of the populace, the competition becomes really toxic among the population over time and if even the smallest sense of unfairness is seen to be happening whether or not it is happening, the resentment and toxicity becomes a threat to nationhood which should trump any smaller sense of belonging. We have to find solutions that directly deal with this if we are ever gonna move forward and bazungu models wont work for us because these models were never designed to solve the problems WE have but the ones bazungu had throughout the last millenium.

Offline vooke

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Re: vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2018, 12:38:04 PM »
Pundit, maybe you are right. Vooke, I dont know why you struggle with the issue of toxic diversity. At the very least it has been something that has allowed us to settle for subpar performance even in places like the Capital where most people should have the highest expectations. The ethnic math our politics is based on is surely a big obstacle even down to clan levels. There is just no way you get good leaders in such a diverse country as Kenya once ethnic maths becomes the main calculation in politics.

If we had one dominant group, say 75% of the country belonging to one group, I'd say it would be less of a problem. But when you have even the biggest groups with a share of only like 20% of the populace, the competition becomes really toxic among the population over time and if even the smallest sense of unfairness is seen to be happening whether or not it is happening, the resentment and toxicity becomes a threat to nationhood which should trump any smaller sense of belonging. We have to find solutions that directly deal with this if we are ever gonna move forward and bazungu models wont work for us because these models were never designed to solve the problems WE have but the ones bazungu had throughout the last millenium.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.