MOON Ki Help Me Understand The Retroactive Powers of the Law

[Omollo]

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and how mortals can be protected from the same. When does the principle kick in.

[RV Pundit]

Let me help you for free. It depend. Typically the law immediately applies from the day it's gazetted. In some law - they can specify the start data when it becomes effective. On matters already before the court - esp criminal - they don't apply retroactively NEGATIVELY.

The KEY CONSIDERATION for retroactivity - is the EFFECT of the law if something was already in dispute - for instance if the law increase punishment for some crime and you already comitted that crime - then it doesn't apply - you still get the lesser sentence. If the law has positive effect on your case - say it declares smoking weed legal - then it applies immediately - and you get discharged the same day.

Bottom-line- any law that seem limit rights and freedoms of individual cannot apply retroactively.

If you're talking about election amendments - this is fresh election ordered - and the new laws will apply. This is essentially a civil matter.

and how mortals can be protected from the same. When does the principle kick in.

[Omollo]

You simply can't grasp what I am asking. I will await MOON Ki's response. In the meantime try to understand what retroactive means.

Let me help you for free. It depend. Typically the law immediately applies from the day it's gazetted. In some law - they can specify the start data when it becomes effective. On matters already before the court - esp criminal - they don't apply retroactively NEGATIVELY.

The KEY CONSIDERATION for retroactivity - is the EFFECT of the law if something was already in dispute - for instance if the law increase punishment for some crime and you already comitted that crime - then it doesn't apply - you still get the lesser sentence. If the law has positive effect on your case - say it declares smoking weed legal - then it applies immediately - and you get discharged the same day.

Bottom-line- any law that seem limit rights and freedoms of individual cannot apply retroactively.

If you're talking about election amendments - this is fresh election ordered - and the new laws will apply. This is essentially a civil matter.

and how mortals can be protected from the same. When does the principle kick in.

[RV Pundit]

I surely can understand what I can't grasp. Iwinjo? You need to look for another loophole.

You simply can't grasp what I am asking. I will await MOON Ki's response. In the meantime try to understand what retroactive means.

[Omollo]

Perhaps it has escaped your notice but I am not debating nor will I debate your amendments. Knock yourselves out.

I could of course respond to each and everything you have posted on this board about the amendments. I just did not think I would be the beneficiary of such a debate. So please again, this is way above your paygrade. Butt out and watch from the sidelines.

Hint: Next time you are discussing a legal principle, first establish the jurisdiction it affects.

I surely can understand what I can't grasp. Iwinjo? You need to look for another loophole.

You simply can't grasp what I am asking. I will await MOON Ki's response. In the meantime try to understand what retroactive means.

[Kichwa]

It depends with the jurisdiction and the guidelines set by case law in that jurisdiction.  Creation of new laws obviously raises the question of whether the law can be applied retroactively regardless of whether the law expressly states so. This is because its application retroactively will raise justiciable issues ranging from its constitutionality to matters of fundamental fairness and justice.  If this parliament hurriedly pass these Ruto laws and tries to apply them  retroactively, then we are looking at a long time in court.  It is much better to have a few smart legislatures than a majority of zombies.

and how mortals can be protected from the same. When does the principle kick in.

[RV Pundit]

Obviously we are talking about you wracking your brains to figure out away out parliament ongoing attempts to ammend election laws to seal any panya route that Raila camp was exploring to avoid DEBE on 26th October. In any case you can private message Moonki if you don't want us to butt in.

Perhaps it has escaped your notice but I am not debating nor will I debate your amendments. Knock yourselves out.

I could of course respond to each and everything you have posted on this board about the amendments. I just did not think I would be the beneficiary of such a debate. So please again, this is way above your paygrade. Butt out and watch from the sidelines.

Hint: Next time you are discussing a legal principle, first establish the jurisdiction it affects.

[RV Pundit]

Has election been already held and we are now apply the laws post-facto? I might have missed this.Fresh repeat elections are yet to be held and these laws are no retro-active. They are meant to seal loopholes that invalidated the last election. IEBC have been making "retroactive" changes coz obviously this election cannot be ran like it was ran on 8th August.

It depends with the jurisdiction and the guidelines set by case law in that jurisdiction.  Creation of new laws obviously raises the question of whether the law can be applied retroactively regardless of whether the law expressly states so. This is because its application retroactively will raise justiciable issues ranging from its constitutionality to matters of fundamental fairness and justice.  If this parliament hurriedly pass these Ruto laws and tries to apply them  retroactively, then we are looking at a long time in court.  It is much better to have a few smart legislatures than a majority of zombies.

[Kichwa]

How are you closing loopholes or clarification when the  actions these morons is  creating more issues for  Maraga to decide.  Democracy is not just about numbers, its also about the law.  In the US, the Republicans control all the three branches of government and yet they have not passed a single law since Trump took over almost one year ago.

Obviously we are talking about you wracking your brains to figure out away out parliament ongoing attempts to ammend election laws to seal any panya route for Raila. In any case you can private message Moonki if you don't want us to butt in.

Perhaps it has escaped your notice but I am not debating nor will I debate your amendments. Knock yourselves out.

I could of course respond to each and everything you have posted on this board about the amendments. I just did not think I would be the beneficiary of such a debate. So please again, this is way above your paygrade. Butt out and watch from the sidelines.

Hint: Next time you are discussing a legal principle, first establish the jurisdiction it affects.

[RV Pundit]

I'd be happy if you took the trouble to read the proposed ammendment and flag those you think will create issues. I see them as reinforcing SCOK and IEBC changes.The court asked IEBC to get complimentary system - this law provide one - the court found issues with unsigned or unstamped forms - this law make it an offence - in short - these laws are long overdue. None is odious.

How are you closing loopholes or clarification when the  actions these morons is  creating more issues for  Maraga to decide.  Democracy is not just about numbers, its also about the law.  In the US, the Republicans control all the three branches of government and yet they have not passed a single law since Trump took over almost one year ago.

[Kichwa]

The term "fresh elections" is technical.  What we have here is not a regularly scheduled elections but a court ordered repeat elections. Tell your boy Ruto to relax and wait for these elections to be done or not done before he can deploy his toys of legislatures which he recently acquired with his ill gotten wealth and so eager to play with to mess up the hard fought for democratic gains.  Maraga court ordered IEBC to conduct a repeat of the elections in accordance with the "current laws". The October 26 elections is essentially a court supervised elections because the court said that they will nullify it again if not done right. Throw in new rules then you have muddied the waters instead of clarifying them and the matter goes back to court.  Once the matter is in court then you cannot legitimize Ouru's presidency by swearing him in at night by Njoki Ndungu.

Has election been already held and we are now apply the laws post-facto? I might have missed this.Fresh repeat elections are yet to be held and these laws are no retro-active. They are meant to seal loopholes that invalidated the last election. IEBC have been making "retroactive" changes coz obviously this election cannot be ran like it was ran on 8th August.

It depends with the jurisdiction and the guidelines set by case law in that jurisdiction.  Creation of new laws obviously raises the question of whether the law can be applied retroactively regardless of whether the law expressly states so. This is because its application retroactively will raise justiciable issues ranging from its constitutionality to matters of fundamental fairness and justice.  If this parliament hurriedly pass these Ruto laws and tries to apply them  retroactively, then we are looking at a long time in court.  It is much better to have a few smart legislatures than a majority of zombies.

[Omollo]

KM

Why is it that Uhuru cannot appoint a CS or dish out any of the usual jobs-for-Kikuyus? When did that moratorium kick in?

Actually have the courts spoken on when an election period starts?

[Kichwa]

There is no need reading them. Again you are missing the importance of process.  The timing is awful legally and otherwise.  The whole action has the impatience and arrogance of Ruto written all over it. In a democracy, the law of diminishing returns also applies to numbers.

I'd be happy if you took the trouble to read the proposed ammendment and flag those you think will create issues. I see them as reinforcing SCOK and IEBC changes.The court asked IEBC to get complimentary system - this law provide one - the court found issues with unsigned or unstamped forms - this law make it an offence - in short - these laws are long overdue. None is odious.

How are you closing loopholes or clarification when the  actions these morons is  creating more issues for  Maraga to decide.  Democracy is not just about numbers, its also about the law.  In the US, the Republicans control all the three branches of government and yet they have not passed a single law since Trump took over almost one year ago.

[RV Pundit]

Let just say Maraga forget to order parliament to cease making or amending laws during this period. It huge oversight on his part. Of course it pains you that Ruto worked hard and now has parliament under lock and key. It's democracy. Don't hate the players.

And Ruto is not even started...what will you say in 2022

The term "fresh elections" is technical.  What we have here is not a regularly scheduled elections but a court ordered repeat elections. Tell your boy Ruto to relax and wait for these elections to be done or not done before he can deploy his toys of legislatures which he recently acquired with his ill gotten wealth and so eager to play with to mess up the hard fought for democratic gains.  Maraga court ordered IEBC to conduct a repeat of the elections in accordance with the "current laws". The October 26 elections is essentially a court supervised elections because the court said that they will nullify it again if not done right. Throw in new rules then you have muddied the waters instead of clarifying them and the matter goes back to court.  Once the matter is in court then you cannot legitimize Ouru's presidency by swearing him in at night by Njoki Ndungu.

Has election been already held and we are now apply the laws post-facto? I might have missed this.Fresh repeat elections are yet to be held and these laws are no retro-active. They are meant to seal loopholes that invalidated the last election. IEBC have been making "retroactive" changes coz obviously this election cannot be ran like it was ran on 8th August.

It depends with the jurisdiction and the guidelines set by case law in that jurisdiction.  Creation of new laws obviously raises the question of whether the law can be applied retroactively regardless of whether the law expressly states so. This is because its application retroactively will raise justiciable issues ranging from its constitutionality to matters of fundamental fairness and justice.  If this parliament hurriedly pass these Ruto laws and tries to apply them  retroactively, then we are looking at a long time in court.  It is much better to have a few smart legislatures than a majority of zombies.

[RV Pundit]

Ruto earned this and will use this. I mean the soon to be parliamentary super-majority.  You'll be seeing a lot of these guys 1) Duale - Majority Leader Senate 2) Murkomen - Majority leader Senate working with Justin and Ken Lusaka to make lots of laws. The sooner Raila identify a bottleneck or loophole - the sooner Duale & Murkomen seals its. I am worried that they don't misuse this absolute power.

There is no need reading them. Again you are missing the importance of process.  The timing is awful legally and otherwise.  The whole action has the impatience and arrogance of Ruto written all over it. In a democracy, the law of diminishing returns also applies to numbers.

[bryan275]

What happens to the illegal laws passed by this artificial "super majority"?  Would they be unwound if and when these dodgy MPs lose their seats?

[RV Pundit]

Super-majority cannot pass an illegality. Then can even declare the illegal legal. This of course is above your paygrade.

What happens to the illegal laws passed by this artificial "super majority"?  Would they be unwound if and when these dodgy MPs lose their seats?

[Kichwa]

The matter is yet to be litigated and the court has therefore not decided.  However, I believe that under the current laws it begins when the parliament is disbanded until a president is legally and properly sworn in.  Ouru's temporary presidency kicked in immediately the parliament was disbanded and is still in effect. As of  November 1, 2017, we will be in a constitutional crisis.  I do not see how we will avoid that because even if the elections are done on 10/26/2017,  I foresee a petition which will not be decided until after November 1, 2007. If Ouru is sworn in by force before November 1, 2017, I still see a challenge to his legitimacy in court.  Maybe Museveni and Kagame will attend under those circumstances. 

KM

Why is it that Uhuru cannot appoint a CS or dish out any of the usual jobs-for-Kikuyus? When did that moratorium kick in?

Actually have the courts spoken on when an election period starts?

[bryan275]

Super-majority cannot pass an illegality. Then can even declare the illegal legal. This of course is above your paygrade.

What happens to the illegal laws passed by this artificial "super majority"?  Would they be unwound if and when these dodgy MPs lose their seats?

Paygrade kitu gani?

I do not fratanise with criminals and their supporters.... So keep walking.

[Kichwa]

Of course it pains me that Ruto stole billions from Kenyans and bought human slaves to work for him as Members of parliament to make a mockery of a democracy.

Let just say Maraga forget to order parliament to cease making or amending laws during this period. It huge oversight on his part. Of course it pains you that Ruto worked hard and now has parliament under lock and key. It's democracy. Don't hate the players.

And Ruto is not even started...what will you say in 2022

The term "fresh elections" is technical.  What we have here is not a regularly scheduled elections but a court ordered repeat elections. Tell your boy Ruto to relax and wait for these elections to be done or not done before he can deploy his toys of legislatures which he recently acquired with his ill gotten wealth and so eager to play with to mess up the hard fought for democratic gains.  Maraga court ordered IEBC to conduct a repeat of the elections in accordance with the "current laws". The October 26 elections is essentially a court supervised elections because the court said that they will nullify it again if not done right. Throw in new rules then you have muddied the waters instead of clarifying them and the matter goes back to court.  Once the matter is in court then you cannot legitimize Ouru's presidency by swearing him in at night by Njoki Ndungu.

Has election been already held and we are now apply the laws post-facto? I might have missed this.Fresh repeat elections are yet to be held and these laws are no retro-active. They are meant to seal loopholes that invalidated the last election. IEBC have been making "retroactive" changes coz obviously this election cannot be ran like it was ran on 8th August.

It depends with the jurisdiction and the guidelines set by case law in that jurisdiction.  Creation of new laws obviously raises the question of whether the law can be applied retroactively regardless of whether the law expressly states so. This is because its application retroactively will raise justiciable issues ranging from its constitutionality to matters of fundamental fairness and justice.  If this parliament hurriedly pass these Ruto laws and tries to apply them  retroactively, then we are looking at a long time in court.  It is much better to have a few smart legislatures than a majority of zombies.