Form 34A or 34B, Which is Final?

[Kadame7]

Termie,
If the note is not necessary since it can only be challenged in court, why is it part of his responsibility to receive all these before declaration seeing the declaration is not in any way affected by the forms 34As?

For the same reason, we as Kenyans need to be able to access them on the portal.  It's a redundancy.  A redundancy that makes it just that little bit harder for someone to cheat.

I think its brilliant actually. Chebukati cant be tempted to massage them at NTC and the R.O. knowing the 34 A has also gone to NTC cant either. Finally, the physical forms finally arrives to ensure even further that all the points (KIEMS, constituency results and NTC and paper form) are identical. No monkeying around.

This only works of course if IEBC follow this law/system.  Thats why Mwilu and company refuse to compromise on this duty. Once you decide P.O., R.O. or Chebu can ignore bits they dont like, like Kiems, verification etc, the whole point of this elaborate systems of checks fails. They are all meant to me checking and re-checking each other and this is supposed to completely discourage/catch manipulators.

[vooke]

I think its brilliant actually. Chebukati cant be tempted to massage them at NTC and the R.O. knowing the 34 A has also gone to NTC cant either. Finally, the physical forms finally arrives to ensure even further that all the points (KIEMS, constituency results and NTC and paper form) are identical. No monkeying around.

This only works of course if IEBC follow this law/system.  Thats why Mwilu and company refuse to compromise on this duty. Once you decide P.O., R.O. or Chebu can ignore bits they dont like, like Kiems, verification etc, the whole point of this elaborate systems of checks fails.

[Kadame7]

I think its brilliant actually. Chebukati cant be tempted to massage them at NTC and the R.O. knowing the 34 A has also gone to NTC cant either. Finally, the physical forms finally arrives to ensure even further that all the points (KIEMS, constituency results and NTC and paper form) are identical. No monkeying around.

This only works of course if IEBC follow this law/system.  Thats why Mwilu and company refuse to compromise on this duty. Once you decide P.O., R.O. or Chebu can ignore bits they dont like, like Kiems, verification etc, the whole point of this elaborate systems of checks fails.

Sawa. To each their own. Verifying means he must have all forms and check them against R.O. results. All variations will be noted before a court. This discourages R.O. games as he knows he will still be checked. Chebu is prevented from varying so that he doesnt attempt to screw with the results and make everything artificially match at NTC. I think it is perfect for the thieving Kenya negro.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

After verification what happens - if you discover the forms have issues here and there - what does Chebukati do? Ask the RO to varify or alter?  If he declares a whole constitutuency election invalid because the form has issues - what is implication on that ? Isn't that court business.

I think he is stuck with it.  He can make notes about it.  Or even ignore it, if it is no impact on the outcome.  If there is an impact, he can point it out and make life easy for any party that wants to challenge.  He could even challenge it himself in court.

[Kadame7]

vooke, Mwilu says it was part of verification: meant to ensure identical results throughout transmissions. Its meant to catch manipulators.

He says he cant ammend. Not that he cant verify. Those laws were enacted to discourage any change/manipulation of forms at any stage of transmission.

He has the DUTY to verify. The point if these laws was to ensure any manipulation at any stage, polling to constituency to NTC, would be known. It was meant to discourage any temptations to change the forms. Mwilu said today it is meant to ensure that it is the exact same form that was transmitted at the polling that ends up at the NTC. Its alk designed with our election history in mind.

But declaration of results are not final.

[Kadame7]

After verification what happens - if you discover the forms have issues here and there - what does Chebukati do? Ask the RO to varify or alter?  If he declares a whole constitutuency election invalid because the form has issues - what is implication on that ? Isn't that court business.

I think he is stuck with it.  He can make notes about it.  Or even ignore it, if it is no impact on the outcome.  If there is an impact, he can point it out and make life easy for any party that wants to challenge.  He could even challenge it himself in court.

Yep! Dont see what would prevent Chebu from seeking an order for the ammendment of 34 Bs found to be manifestly erroneous. But to get such an order, he would have checked all 34 As againt 34 Bs and ascertsined exactlt how 34 B is erroneous, and this not in the back room of his office.

[vooke]

After verification what happens - if you discover the forms have issues here and there - what does Chebukati do? Ask the RO to varify or alter?  If he declares a whole constitutuency election invalid because the form has issues - what is implication on that ? Isn't that court business.

I think he is stuck with it.  He can make notes about it.  Or even ignore it, if it is no impact on the outcome.  If there is an impact, he can point it out and make life easy for any party that wants to challenge.  He could even challenge it himself in court.

[vooke]

vooke, Mwilu says it was part of verification: meant to ensure identical results throughout transmissions. Its meant to catch manipulators.

He says he cant ammend. Not that he cant verify. Those laws were enacted to discourage any change/manipulation of forms at any stage of transmission.

He has the DUTY to verify. The point if these laws was to ensure any manipulation at any stage, polling to constituency to NTC, would be known. It was meant to discourage any temptations to change the forms. Mwilu said today it is meant to ensure that it is the exact same form that was transmitted at the polling that ends up at the NTC. Its alk designed with our election history in mind.

But declaration of results are not final.

What do you mean? Can Chebukati declare results and then change his mind?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Termie,
If the note is not necessary since it can only be challenged in court, why is it part of his responsibility to receive all these before declaration seeing the declaration is not in any way affected by the forms 34As?

For the same reason, we as Kenyans need to be able to access them on the portal.  It's a redundancy.  A redundancy that makes it just that little bit harder for someone to cheat.

I think its brilliant actually. Chebukati cant be tempted to massage them at NTC and the R.O. knowing the 34 A has also gone to NTC cant either. Finally, the physical forms finally arrives to ensure even further that all the points (KIEMS, constituency results and NTC and paper form) are identical. No monkeying around.

This only works of course if IEBC follow this law/system.  Thats why Mwilu and company refuse to compromise on this duty. Once you decide P.O., R.O. or Chebu can ignore bits they dont like, like Kiems, verification etc, the whole point of this elaborate systems of checks fails. They are all meant to me checking and re-checking each other and this is supposed to completely discourage/catch manipulators.

That's basically the spirit.  Verifying simply means he has checked to see if they are true or not.  He can then make notes or ignore it, if it changes nothing.  If he does not see the 34A, he can raise the alarm.  That said, I don't think any reasonable court would hold it against him if he were to announce the result with a single or even a few missing 34As.  But IEBC has to make good faith efforts to adhere to the checks and balances of these redundancies.

[vooke]

Sawa. To each their own. Verifying means he must have all forms and check them against R.O. results. All variations will be noted before a court. This discourages R.O. games as he knows he will still be checked. Chebu is prevented from varying so that he doesnt attempt to screw with the results and make everything artificially match at NTC. I think it is perfect for the thieving Kenya negro.

[Kadame7]

After verification what happens - if you discover the forms have issues here and there - what does Chebukati do? Ask the RO to varify or alter?  If he declares a whole constitutuency election invalid because the form has issues - what is implication on that ? Isn't that court business.

I think he is stuck with it.  He can make notes about it.  Or even ignore it, if it is no impact on the outcome.  If there is an impact, he can point it out and make life easy for any party that wants to challenge.  He could even challenge it himself in court.

Nope! IEBC has a right to approach courts on orders it needs. It becomes suing IEBC when it declares results without performing all the required tasks in the right order first.

[Kadame7]

Termie,
If the note is not necessary since it can only be challenged in court, why is it part of his responsibility to receive all these before declaration seeing the declaration is not in any way affected by the forms 34As?

For the same reason, we as Kenyans need to be able to access them on the portal.  It's a redundancy.  A redundancy that makes it just that little bit harder for someone to cheat.

I think its brilliant actually. Chebukati cant be tempted to massage them at NTC and the R.O. knowing the 34 A has also gone to NTC cant either. Finally, the physical forms finally arrives to ensure even further that all the points (KIEMS, constituency results and NTC and paper form) are identical. No monkeying around.

This only works of course if IEBC follow this law/system.  Thats why Mwilu and company refuse to compromise on this duty. Once you decide P.O., R.O. or Chebu can ignore bits they dont like, like Kiems, verification etc, the whole point of this elaborate systems of checks fails. They are all meant to me checking and re-checking each other and this is supposed to completely discourage/catch manipulators.

That's basically the spirit.  Verifying simply means he has checked to see if they are true or not.  He can then make notes or ignore it, if it changes nothing.  If he does not see the 34A, he can raise the alarm.  That said, I don't think any reasonable court would hold it against him if he were to announce the result with a single or even a few missing 34As.  But IEBC has to make good faith efforts to adhere to the checks and balances of these redundancies.

Of course. THAT is what is called understable human error. Not simply ignoring the law and doing what you want.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Sawa. To each their own. Verifying means he must have all forms and check them against R.O. results. All variations will be noted before a court. This discourages R.O. games as he knows he will still be checked. Chebu is prevented from varying so that he doesnt attempt to screw with the results and make everything artificially match at NTC. I think it is perfect for the thieving Kenya negro.

More eyes.

[vooke]

That's basically the spirit.  Verifying simply means he has checked to see if they are true or not.  He can then make notes or ignore it, if it changes nothing.  If he does not see the 34A, he can raise the alarm.  That said, I don't think any reasonable court would hold it against him if he were to announce the result with a single or even a few missing 34As.  But IEBC has to make good faith efforts to adhere to the checks and balances of these redundancies.

Bear in mind verification goes beyond arithmetical errors. But sticking with that. Supposing the total sum of errors means no candidate meets the constitutional threshold yet forms 34B suggests one does. The chairperson declares one as the outright winner and then immediately challenges its own declaration in court. Nonsensical.

Next, what happens when the chairperson receives forms 34B minus a significant number of 34As. Should he wait till he has all the forms or proceed with the 34B as it is? He has 7 days and the deadline is approaching. What to do?

[Kadame7]

Sawa. To each their own. Verifying means he must have all forms and check them against R.O. results. All variations will be noted before a court. This discourages R.O. games as he knows he will still be checked. Chebu is prevented from varying so that he doesnt attempt to screw with the results and make everything artificially match at NTC. I think it is perfect for the thieving Kenya negro.

Last attempt then Im done. If the R.O. is the final and no one else checks to ensure he has not manipulated anything, he can do what he wants. The fact the p.o sends to him and ntc simultaneously is so that he doesnt change anything. This is all "ABUDAS of caution" to make sure everyone just transmits and counts without changing anything knowing other people are doing the same.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

That's basically the spirit.  Verifying simply means he has checked to see if they are true or not.  He can then make notes or ignore it, if it changes nothing.  If he does not see the 34A, he can raise the alarm.  That said, I don't think any reasonable court would hold it against him if he were to announce the result with a single or even a few missing 34As.  But IEBC has to make good faith efforts to adhere to the checks and balances of these redundancies.

Bear in mind verification goes beyond arithmetical errors. But sticking with that. Supposing the total sum of errors means no candidate meets the constitutional threshold yet forms 34B suggests one does. The chairperson declares one as the outright winner and then immediately challenges its own declaration in court. Nonsensical.

Next, what happens when the chairperson receives forms 34B minus a significant number of 34As. Should he wait till he has all the forms or proceed with the 34B as it is? He has 7 days and the deadline is approaching. What to do?

Your questions are already answered in responses elsewhere on the thread.  Take some time to read them

[Kadame7]

That's basically the spirit.  Verifying simply means he has checked to see if they are true or not.  He can then make notes or ignore it, if it changes nothing.  If he does not see the 34A, he can raise the alarm.  That said, I don't think any reasonable court would hold it against him if he were to announce the result with a single or even a few missing 34As.  But IEBC has to make good faith efforts to adhere to the checks and balances of these redundancies.

Bear in mind verification goes beyond arithmetical errors. But sticking with that. Supposing the total sum of errors means no candidate meets the constitutional threshold yet forms 34B suggests one does. The chairperson declares one as the outright winner and then immediately challenges its own declaration in court. Nonsensical.

Next, what happens when the chairperson receives forms 34B minus a significant number of 34As. Should he wait till he has all the forms or proceed with the 34B as it is? He has 7 days and the deadline is approaching. What to do?

Why do you think the chairman is prevented from approaching the court until/unless he does something worth challenging in court?

[vooke]

That's basically the spirit.  Verifying simply means he has checked to see if they are true or not.  He can then make notes or ignore it, if it changes nothing.  If he does not see the 34A, he can raise the alarm.  That said, I don't think any reasonable court would hold it against him if he were to announce the result with a single or even a few missing 34As.  But IEBC has to make good faith efforts to adhere to the checks and balances of these redundancies.

Bear in mind verification goes beyond arithmetical errors. But sticking with that. Supposing the total sum of errors means no candidate meets the constitutional threshold yet forms 34B suggests one does. The chairperson declares one as the outright winner and then immediately challenges its own declaration in court. Nonsensical.

Next, what happens when the chairperson receives forms 34B minus a significant number of 34As. Should he wait till he has all the forms or proceed with the 34B as it is? He has 7 days and the deadline is approaching. What to do?

Why do you think the chairman is prevented from approaching the court until/unless he does something worth challenging in court?

Why do you think I think he is?

[Kadame7]

vooke, Mwilu says it was part of verification: meant to ensure identical results throughout transmissions. Its meant to catch manipulators.

He says he cant ammend. Not that he cant verify. Those laws were enacted to discourage any change/manipulation of forms at any stage of transmission.

He has the DUTY to verify. The point if these laws was to ensure any manipulation at any stage, polling to constituency to NTC, would be known. It was meant to discourage any temptations to change the forms. Mwilu said today it is meant to ensure that it is the exact same form that was transmitted at the polling that ends up at the NTC. Its alk designed with our election history in mind.

But declaration of results are not final.

What do you mean? Can Chebukati declare results and then change his mind?

I mean, as what is going on right now at the SCOK clearly demonstrates, that the declaration is not final. So yes, the verification exercises if followed and all its findings, has lots if uses elsewhere.

[vooke]

Sawa. To each their own. Verifying means he must have all forms and check them against R.O. results. All variations will be noted before a court. This discourages R.O. games as he knows he will still be checked. Chebu is prevented from varying so that he doesnt attempt to screw with the results and make everything artificially match at NTC. I think it is perfect for the thieving Kenya negro.

Last attempt then Im done. If the R.O. is the final and no one else checks to ensure he has not manipulated anything, he can do what he wants. The fact the p.o sends to him and ntc simultaneously is so that he doesnt change anything. This is all "ABUDAS of caution" to make sure everyone just transmits and counts without changing anything knowing other people are doing the same.