A National Unity Government Is Not A Bad Idea

[Kadame7]

Pundit,

Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.

I am going to ask you to point out the quote where Kadame made that incredibly stupid argument you have created and then attributed to her, Robina, thanks!

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Pundit,

Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.

My surmise is that the polls were simply flawed - not rigged - and that NASA does in fact have images/copies of these same flawed forms in their custody which they cannot release to maintain the rigging propaganda. Orengo had 5K of these forms in court but none here has seen them. If they backed rigging claims they would be all over the net. Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous

I could be wrong of course. I must wait for the detailed ruling to see what the judges think.

Show us one single form 34A that was original agreed and signed by NASA agents - and was later altered. You have 41k polling stations.

I also had doubts about NASA because of the agents thing.  I find it difficult to believe this court arrived at a conclusion of illegalities without evidence.  I am sure Njoki/Ojwang jubilant axis must have belabored that point, together with the utterly irrational numbers argument.

For now, I defer to bryan275's views - but in a cruder way - until I see some compelling evidence not to.

[Kadame7]

Pundit,

Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.

I am going to ask you to point out the quote where Kadame made that incredibly stupid argument you have created and then attributed to her, Robina, thanks!

And about that "Uhuru was absolved" argument, I'll just quote myself from the other thread yesterday:

All well and good, I note that you are skeptical about the good judge's ruling that explicitly said that criminal acts were committed.

Absolving Uhuru of wrong doing is quite telling. Do you think they would have said so if there was clear evidence of rigging in favor of Uhunye?

This is an assumption you and Robina are making: that if the court had found that the illegalities/irregularities favoured Jubilee, it would have indicted Jubilee along with the IEBC. Those are two separate things. If I was judging I would never say that if I caught A doing something that favored B, I would then automatically indict B without evidence of B's own wrongdoing just because he was the beneficiary of the wrong-doing of A. What the court said was that it did not find evidence of Uhuru's wrong doing. And indeed if Uhuru used IEBC, why would the court find otherwise without direct evidence of collusion?

[MOON Ki]

I also had doubts about NASA because of the agents thing.  I find it difficult to believe this court arrived at a conclusion of illegalities without evidence. I am sure Njoki/Ojwang jubilant axis must have belabored that point, together with the utterly irrational numbers argument.

For now, I defer to bryan275's views - but in a cruder way - until I see some compelling evidence not to.

Yes.   We should keep in mind that most of our discussions are based on a few pages that don't say a great deal.    The other thing I'd keep in mind is what the Court-of-Appeal judges stated in the last major pre-election case that the IEBC lost: we must take into account our history and what the new laws, institutions, etc. are supposed to be about.

If people have always behaved well, then when bad things happen---even if on a large scale---there may be the excuse of "bad luck" or whatever.  If, however, people have always behaved badly, then---until they show that they have mended their ways---the default interpretation of bad things on a large scale must be that they are at it again.

[Omollo]

Actually having read your first response, I am as far away from a National Unity Government as Jupiter. I think we say liwe liwalo. Let us met you in the field. Advise Chirchir to find something else to do for his own good.

Uhuru was badly heckled in Narok while Raila called a rally in Mathare two hours later there were nearly a million souls. I think you need to be properly defeated.

Wetangula was robbed and targeted as a way of paving the way for 2017. There was no evidence of IEBC rigging him in. He was accused of doing what Ruto does every day. In the end he won because his support had never declined.

The Kikuyu judge who nullified the election had instructions to lock him out. They ran in to a tough nut. I cannot see nothing to make any comparison between that and the Uhuru nullification. Was the IEBC found culpable in Wetangula vs Musikari Kombo? Was UHuru found personally culpable? No comparable issues whatever!

There are two issues which are separate: The culpability of IEBC and the sanctions. Did Maraga find the IEBC culpable? Here is what he wrote:

As to whether the 2017 Presidential Election was conducted in accordance with the principles laid down in the Constitution and the law relating to elections, upon considering inter alia Articles 10, 38, 81 and 86 of the Constitution as well as, Sections 39(1C), 44, 44A and 83 of the Elections Act, the decision of the court is that the 1st Respondent failed, neglected or refused to conduct the Presidential Election in a Presidential Election Petition No.1 of 2017 -3- manner consistent with the dictates of the Constitution and inter alia the Elections Act, Chapter 7 of the Laws of Kenya.

The court has the power to impose sanctions. However the past practice has been to recommend action based on the findings. In 2013 the court ordered investigations and recommended punishment for procurement irregularities. In the Wetangula case it did the same after refusing to vacate such an order issued by the high court and upheld by the CoA. In both cases action was taken.

You cannot assume that no action or recommendation of action will not be made before we read the entire judgment. Just 2013 it came in the main judgment not the determination.

The court wrote:

the court was satisfied that the 1st Respondent committed irregularities and illegalities

I think you are now reduced to a JP youthwinger and heckler no better than Njamlik and others. I won't be wasting my time responding to you. You have sunk far lower than my dignity allows to engage you. Bure kabisa

Everyone recons free and fair? Name one disinterested such person Pundit. You never followed the hearing. You did not have a case from the word go. You have not read the affidavits (apart from Kasait's - after I asked you read it!)

Omollo,
SCOK ordered IEBC to hold repeat election. IEBC have been holding repeat elections for MPs or Governors or Senator. Wetangula did have his election annulled and he won again. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You have to agree with Maraga that IEBC should hold election in 60 days - Maraga did not find evidence enough to disband IEBC; assuming he had such powers.

IEBC will hold election. You guys are already trembling because you know NASA used technical excuses to have the election that everyone reckons was free and fair to be annualed.

Uhuru win will be confirmed. I have no doubt about that. Nobody has presented any evidence that Uhuru rigged the poll. We just had bumbling and fumbling IEBC failing to sign forms & do the basics.

[Omollo]

What crap is this? You go and read the case, understand it first hand then come and discuss. You should stop peddling the crap you hear from politicians who never read the evidence. It is to shameful to read this garbage you are writing.

The form 34As and 34Bs were COMPREHENSIVELY analyzed by NASA lawyers, experts, handwriting experts, IT and Paper security experts who made their reports on each.

If errors were intended to favour Uhuru it would show. The forms without signatures were mostly in Mombasa - Raila stronghold. You know after Maina Kiai rulling I predict this is exactly what was gonna happen. Normally IEBC at HQ would clean things up - make sure RO has signed & dotted all the ts. You ran around saying - IEBC at Const would be as meticilous as Chebukati. But now it bloody chaos. We will see a lot of mess. Those ROS just end up spoiling Chebukati name.

I already did that. Rigging is interference/manipulation: I can find no credible reason for all this to happen innocently. That's why I asked if you could think of one....

[Kadame7]

Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous

The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it.  They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.

[vooke]

Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous

The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it.  They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.

Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html


https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie


But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes

[Kadame7]

Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous

The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it.  They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.

Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html


https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie


But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes

Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.

The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "swing judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.

[vooke]

Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.

The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "dissenting judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.

Conclusions aside,
Standard has details totally absent from Nation like judges being 2:2 with 2 undecided, 3:3  and then 4:2. So I tend to believe the story came from the same source as opposed to one borrowing from the other.

I think both sides attempted to influence,they attempted to reach out to the judges.

In what lawyers in the petition attribute to lobbying by colleagues but denied by those who were present, one of the judges switched sides on conscience grounds to support the invalidation of the election.

[Kadame7]

Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.

The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "dissenting judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.

Conclusions aside,
Standard has details totally absent from Nation like judges being 2:2 with 2 undecided, 3:3  and then 4:2. So I tend to believe the story came from the same source as opposed to one borrowing from the other.

I think both sides attempted to influence,they attempted to reach out to the judges.

Perhaps, but the 2:2 etc information is very safe information. Saying Jubilee or NASA or worse Ahmednassir, Murkomen and even more gravely in my opinion: Njoki Ndungu was the Jubilee informant on the bench, is something only an incredibly dumb paper would do without a good footing. NASA individuals have not been mentioned by anyone. I think using "parties" is just more of the same: Raila did it too! at worst or an attempt to appear non-partisan. No one is bold enough to say which NASA person kept bugging the judges.

"Lobbying by colleagues" is just as ambiguous or more ambiguos than "parties". Certainly, the nation allegedly did not know about NASA unless its people are brave enough to implicate a senior judge by her name in this sordid thing but too timid to mention NASA people. You can say all that the standard says withour getting into any legal trouble but I cant imagine getting away with the nation story.

[vooke]

Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.

The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "dissenting judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.

Conclusions aside,
Standard has details totally absent from Nation like judges being 2:2 with 2 undecided, 3:3  and then 4:2. So I tend to believe the story came from the same source as opposed to one borrowing from the other.

I think both sides attempted to influence,they attempted to reach out to the judges.

Perhaps, but the 2:2 etc information is very safe information. Saying Jubilee or NASA or worse Ahmednassir, Murkomen and even more gravely in my opinion: Njoki Ndungu was the Jubilee informant on the bench, is something only an incredibly dumb paper would do without a good footing. NASA individuals have not been mentioned by anyone. I think using "parties" is just more of the same: Raila did it too! at worst or an attempt to appear non-partisan. No one is bold enough to say which NASA person kept bugging the judges.

"Lobbying by colleagues" is just as ambiguous or more ambiguos than "parties". Certainly, the nation would have known about NASA too unless its people are brave enough to implicate a senior judge by her name in this sordid thing but too timid to mention NASA people.

Agreed. It's difficult to tell which parts are factual and what are embellishment or what was the cause of embellishments; media reporting or their source. So I think it's fair to treat every detail with the same level of confidence/contempt

[Kadame7]

Agreed. It's difficult to tell which parts are factual and what are embellishment or what was the cause of embellishments; media reporting or their source. So I think it's fair to treat every detail with the same level of confidence/contempt

I agree but my point is that the nation story calls for a swift and firm rebuttal or denial from identified entities yet to do so while the standard piece has accused no one and requires no response. Neither NASA nor any of its associates need to rebutt anything in any paper yet.

[Omollo]

I don't get it.

Why is it so hard to state that it was Jubilee that tried to influence the court.

1. The media is pro jubilee. Meaning had this been NASA they would be running headlines demanding arrests and prosecutions on top of seeking the sacking of the judges.
2. No Opprobrium : Where is Duale or Murkomen? Even their local heckler is quiet. What does that tell you?
3. Uhuru would by now have sent his homo friend at EACC to probe the judges and make a discovery of a large amount of cash "in Foreign and local currency".(am told when one of these kind of arrests demanded "her money" back they just ignored her)

Social media has been naming names. None of the named have come out to deny or threaten as is the norm.

vooke do you believe there is anybody in Jubile who would play gentleman and let this pass if it remotely involved NASA or yule jaluo?

[vooke]

I don't get it.

Why is it so hard to state that it was Jubilee that tried to influence the court.

1. The media is pro jubilee. Meaning had this been NASA they would be running headlines demanding arrests and prosecutions on top of seeking the sacking of the judges.
2. No Opprobrium : Where is Duale or Murkomen? Even their local heckler is quiet. What does that tell you?
3. Uhuru would by now have sent his homo friend at EACC to probe the judges and make a discovery of a large amount of cash "in Foreign and local currency".(am told when one of these kind of arrests demanded "her money" back they just ignored her)

Social media has been naming names. None of the named have come out to deny or threaten as is the norm.

vooke do you believe there is anybody in Jubile who would play gentleman and let this pass if it remotely involved NASA or yule jaluo?

whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.

Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.

[Omollo]

May be I am getting rusty but how does Babu message say anything beyond what it says? What is anything?

Please find anything in your media which remotely links NASA to influence peddling then we continue this insurgency. ALL the reports point at Jubilee and name the persons. How many Cabinet Secretaries in Uhuru's government would lobby a judge to assist NASA?

whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.

Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.

[Kadame7]

I forgot to mention Duale and Matiangi, the notorious media threatener and secretary, which implicates the President.

[Kadame7]

May be I am getting rusty but how does Babu message say anything beyond what it says? What is anything?

Please find anything in your media which remotely links NASA to influence peddling then we continue this insurgency. ALL the reports point at Jubilee and name the persons. How many Cabinet Secretaries in Uhuru's government would lobby a judge to assist NASA?

whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.

Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.

I think his point is that Raila's message indicates he was not "in" on the deliberations of the judges and was prepared for both outcomes. But I don't believe anything about NASA even in a subdued way going for the judges. Same way I knew they couldn't have killed Msando. No links/mentions and they simply aren't in the position to do so and be allowed to get away with it.

[vooke]

May be I am getting rusty but how does Babu message say anything beyond what it says? What is anything?

Please find anything in your media which remotely links NASA to influence peddling then we continue this insurgency. ALL the reports point at Jubilee and name the persons. How many Cabinet Secretaries in Uhuru's government would lobby a judge to assist NASA?

whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.

Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.

Sorry if I was not clear enough.
I think Babu was prepared for the worst as late as Thursday afternoon and he communicated as much to Nyongo. It is Jubilee that believed they had it their way. That's all I'm saying,if Nyongo is believable. The reports of NASWA influencing are nothing compared to Jubilee's.

Jubilee are hypocrites; they claimed NASWA was in bed because they were confident that morning and the judgement had leaked  bla bla,yet Ngatia skipped precisely because he knew his goose was cooked.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous

The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it.  They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.

Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html


https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie


But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes

B.. bu.. but but NASA did it too.  Care to share any evidence to that claim?