Author Topic: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang  (Read 22134 times)

Offline vooke

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Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« on: September 01, 2017, 03:12:47 PM »
I don't like Scribd because it is a nightmare downloading from there. Just click on these Google Drive links and read off your browser or download.

JB Ojwang
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2rMMQJiqMB8empCZTNZTWRyTVk

Njoki Ndungu
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2rMMQJiqMB8empCZTNZTWRyTVk
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 04:14:05 PM »
Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kichwa

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 04:25:30 PM »
That is why the numbers argument always puzzled me. They never seemed to be bothered or felt important to explain the legal process of how the numbers were acquired and did not feel the need to challenge Orengo and Otiende's theory that once the process is flawed, the numbers become the fruit of the poisonous tree and should not be eaten. I think the 2013 decision influenced this strategy because it was argued to a largely academic bench.  This bench is now composed of more career judges who are used to details and evidence and were not going to be mesmerized by lectures on broad based principles of democracy and tutorials on how to draw a legal petition as PLO attempted.

Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline vooke

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2017, 04:31:58 PM »
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kadame7

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 05:10:41 PM »
That is why the numbers argument always puzzled me. They never seemed to be bothered or felt important to explain the legal process of how the numbers were acquired and did not feel the need to challenge Orengo and Otiende's theory that once the process is flawed, the numbers become the fruit of the poisonous tree and should not be eaten. I think the 2013 decision influenced this strategy because it was argued to a largely academic bench.  This bench is now composed of more career judges who are used to details and evidence and were not going to be mesmerized by lectures on broad based principles of democracy and tutorials on how to draw a legal petition as PLO attempted.

Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
Exactly, Kichwa. Ive always said that one of my biggest beefs with the arrogant Ahmednassir was how he humiliated career judges on TV, not for corruption, but for their "failure" to get a masters or phd once they joined the bench.

I was just shaking my head over that rubbish the whole time: How does someone going to classes for a year, sitting exams, writing a thesis give ANY advantage over 20, 30 years of judicial experience??? That is such a pathetic, superficial, small-minded view, that getting an extra two papers from academic institutions can compete with and then beat actual experience. All you need to do is read a judge's jurisprudence to know whether he does his job well or not. And this is usually known in the legal community. The only other consideration should be integrity.

But nooo. Leave elitist fools like Ahmednassir to convince Kenyans that a PhD thesis and journal articles are a superior metre to mountains of juridprudence and the general experience of handling disputes day to day for a decade or more.

Another reason I thought it was dumb: THIS WAS THE SUPREME COURT!!! How exactly do you promote untested judges with zero experience handling disputes to your number one court? At most, they should have started at the High Court. Supreme Court judges should be picked from High Court and Court of Appeal judges in my view. Anything else is incredibly irresponsible in my view.

Offline vooke

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 10:06:30 PM »
Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
She can only be vindicated in a repeat where Uhunye gets just about the same number of votes. It'll prove that whatever irregularities were there never materially affected the outcome. But I'm certain there will be a raft of excuses why Babu lost again should this be the case.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 12:01:00 AM »
Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
She can only be vindicated in a repeat where Uhunye gets just about the same number of votes. It'll prove that whatever irregularities were there never materially affected the outcome. But I'm certain there will be a raft of excuses why Babu lost again should this be the case.

My hunch is the ruling may have had nothing to do with the material outcome or how it was affected.  It seems to be all about the integrity of the process.  Granted, an integral process may result in a different outcome, but not necessarily.  The point remains.  It's more about whether one can vouch for the result.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kichwa

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2017, 12:13:19 AM »
Yes Windy.  I think vooke is still stuck in numbers argument even after the CJ clearly dismissed that line of argument by stating that free and fair election is a process. This majority of the court who subscribes to that opinion will careless about how the numbers will look in November so long as the process is strictly and closely adhered to.

Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
She can only be vindicated in a repeat where Uhunye gets just about the same number of votes. It'll prove that whatever irregularities were there never materially affected the outcome. But I'm certain there will be a raft of excuses why Babu lost again should this be the case.

My hunch is the ruling may have had nothing to do with the material outcome or how it was affected.  It seems to be all about the integrity of the process.  Granted, an integral process may result in a different outcome, but not necessarily.  The point remains.  It's more about whether one can vouch for the result.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2017, 12:20:01 AM »
Yes Windy.  I think vooke is still stuck in numbers argument even after the CJ clearly dismissed that line of argument by stating that free and fair election is a process. This majority of the court who subscribes to that opinion will careless about how the numbers will look in November so long as the process is strictly and closely adhered to.

Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
She can only be vindicated in a repeat where Uhunye gets just about the same number of votes. It'll prove that whatever irregularities were there never materially affected the outcome. But I'm certain there will be a raft of excuses why Babu lost again should this be the case.

My hunch is the ruling may have had nothing to do with the material outcome or how it was affected.  It seems to be all about the integrity of the process.  Granted, an integral process may result in a different outcome, but not necessarily.  The point remains.  It's more about whether one can vouch for the result.

Unfortunately that seems like a difficult point to get across.  Which leaves me even more impressed by this particular majority for whom I had little respect, though I was misguided in retrospect.

And it's just more than integrity.  It's also the rule of law.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2017, 12:21:17 AM »
Yes Windy.  I think vooke is still stuck in numbers argument even after the CJ clearly dismissed that line of argument by stating that free and fair election is a process. This majority of the court who subscribes to that opinion will careless about how the numbers will look in November so long as the process is strictly and closely adhered to.

Njoki was all about the will of the electorate.  How it comes about, whether by wananchi storming state house or whatever, is obviously irrelevant to her.  She needs to go.  Grace Mumbi should take her place.
She can only be vindicated in a repeat where Uhunye gets just about the same number of votes. It'll prove that whatever irregularities were there never materially affected the outcome. But I'm certain there will be a raft of excuses why Babu lost again should this be the case.

My hunch is the ruling may have had nothing to do with the material outcome or how it was affected.  It seems to be all about the integrity of the process.  Granted, an integral process may result in a different outcome, but not necessarily.  The point remains.  It's more about whether one can vouch for the result.

Look again at the three issues under consideration

(i) Whether the 2017 Presidential Election was conducted in
accordance with the principles laid down in the Constitution
and the law relating to elections.
(ii) Whether there were irregularities and illegalities committed in
the conduct of the 2017 Presidential Election.
(iii) If there were irregularities and illegalities, what was their
impact, if any, on the integrity of the election?

I hope I don't sound patronizing, but what is your understanding of integrity?  In any context.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 12:35:12 AM »
Termie I deleted my post as I was editing it and I'm not typing it again.

The constitution defines free and fair. The ruling simply said the elections were not free and fair because of bla de bla.

A repeat that yields exact same results reduces the free and fair issues to hygiene factors that shouldn't have invalidated the results in the first place.

Ojwang and Njoki stated in their dissent that the claims of not free and fair were spurious.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 12:59:33 AM »
Termie I deleted my post as I was editing it and I'm not typing it again.

The constitution defines free and fair. The ruling simply said the elections were not free and fair because of bla de bla.

A repeat that yields exact same results reduces the free and fair issues to hygiene factors that shouldn't have invalidated the results in the first place.

Ojwang and Njoki stated in their dissent that the claims of not free and fair were spurious.

A key part of that definition, Article 81(v):

Quote
(v) administered in an impartial, neutral, efficient, accurate and accountable manner.

Well worth a few minutes of reflection.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2017, 01:00:19 AM »
Termie I deleted my post as I was editing it and I'm not typing it again.

The constitution defines free and fair. The ruling simply said the elections were not free and fair because of bla de bla.

A repeat that yields exact same results reduces the free and fair issues to hygiene factors that shouldn't have invalidated the results in the first place.

Ojwang and Njoki stated in their dissent that the claims of not free and fair were spurious.

Where does the constitution define free and fair?  I don't have it handy.

We don't yet have their reasoning.  So criticizing it without seeing it, that's just premature.  That said, we know that they believe that an election is a process, not an event.  That laws are there to be obeyed and they feel IEBC unjustifiably failed to obey them.  That the irregularities were to such an extent that it invalidates the process.  Maybe they got the right winner, but they simply failed to follow the law.   They are saying "guys, just follow the law".

Njoki's and Ojwang's is based on their views that the process is not important, as long as the numbers reflect the will of the voter.  That even if there are irregularities, they are only important if they affect the outcome.  The problem with this reasoning is that you cannot know the will of the voters if the process is so tainted that you cannot vouch for a result.  And it promotes lawlessness.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2017, 01:04:21 AM »
Where does the constitution define free and fair?  I don't have it handy.

Article 81.

Quote
Njoki's and Ojwang's is based on their views that the process is not important, as long as the numbers reflect the will of the voter.  That even if there are irregularities, they are only important if they affect the outcome. 

A truly absurd argument.   How on earth does one know that the numbers reflect the will of the people if one is doesn't now how the numbers were obtained?

Njoki and Ojwang are "right" only in a very narrow sense.  For example, if there are illegalities and irregularities in only three voting stations (total 2100) votes and the margin in question is 500,000 votes, then it would make no sense to invalidate the outcome.   But if the process is irredeemably tainted, then one cannot just look at the numbers---for the  very simple reason that one doesn't know what the numbers mean. A very simple case is ballot-stuffing: people vote freely, and their votes are counted fairly (as in each vote is counted as equal to any other vote), but is that really free and fair?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2017, 03:40:27 AM »
I don't like Scribd because it is a nightmare downloading from there. Just click on these Google Drive links and read off your browser or download.

JB Ojwang
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2rMMQJiqMB8empCZTNZTWRyTVk

Njoki Ndungu
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2rMMQJiqMB8empCZTNZTWRyTVk

Both "links" lead to Ojwang's stuff.   I did manage to find Ndung's bit, and it starts with this:

Quote
I am however, of a different opinion. At the heart of democracy are, the people, whose will constitute the strand of governance that we have chosen as a country.

Yes, that is from a Supreme-Court judge, in a public opinion, on a very important national matter.   And, no, it's not a "one-off"; the remainder of the learned judge's display of learning is of the the same quality.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2017, 05:41:38 AM »
Where does the constitution define free and fair?  I don't have it handy.

Article 81.

Quote
Njoki's and Ojwang's is based on their views that the process is not important, as long as the numbers reflect the will of the voter.  That even if there are irregularities, they are only important if they affect the outcome. 

A truly absurd argument.   How on earth does one know that the numbers reflect the will of the people if one is doesn't now how the numbers were obtained?

Njoki and Ojwang are "right" only in a very narrow sense.  For example, if there are illegalities and irregularities in only three voting stations (total 2100) votes and the margin in question is 500,000 votes, then it would make no sense to invalidate the outcome.   But if the process is irredeemably tainted, then one cannot just look at the numbers---for the  very simple reason that one doesn't know what the numbers mean. A very simple case is ballot-stuffing: people vote freely, and their votes are counted fairly (as in each vote is counted as equal to any other vote), but is that really free and fair?


Kenya is a society where you can steal money from the public purse and when caught you wire it back and all is good.  Most often you just mention that they are coming after "my people" and you are in the clear.  So the idea that merely breaking laws without affecting the outcome is acceptable is well established.  That could explain why a lot of people are puzzled by this ruling.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kadame7

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2017, 06:19:30 AM »
This whole "did not affect the outcome" argument makes no sense. There were peculiar stations with 100% turn out and all these voted 100% for Uhuru. How anyone can think the right process was abandoned for any other reason than to "affect the outcome" is beyond me. The IEBC just decided to botch this because they were bored? And no one still knows why they adamantly shielded servers from scrutiny: what was in them they were terrified would be seen? I understand NASA also presented their own agents" copies that showed material departures with those IEBC presented. All these together affected 5 million votes. Way more than the 1.4 M gap. So how does Njoki or Ojwang or even our own vooke know that this reflected the votes on the ground??? :o :o
 

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2017, 06:20:07 AM »
If I was playing a soccer game and I followed these peoples reasoning I can just score by using my hands and win right?
There are rules to every process and that is something they do not seem to understand. If laid down rules are not followed then what is the point of having a competition? A pathetic ruling form these two.

Offline Kadame7

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2017, 06:36:57 AM »
All these people going on about "the court's decision is about process, not outcome" all over have lost leave of their senses. OF COURSE it's about the outcome! The right process leads to a right outcome and the wrong one leads to a wrong outcome. The court invalidates the OUTCOME precisely because it cannot be satisfied that this outcome is correct! This is what kina Ojwang are slyly labling "uncertainties". A clever ploy. Yes Ojwang, if you are reasonably uncertain about whether the right winnet has been declared, you cant in good conscience uphold that result.

The method the court uses to test the outcome is the process, the trackable trail, but the bottom line is that a FAIR court would maintain the result ONLY if it had no good readons to doubt that at the very least, the RIGHT candidate was declared winner even if it cannot be sure the exact gap by which he won. In this case, it appears the anomalies were so widespread that the court couldn't do that. Perhaps kina Njoki have a special method for vouching for their confidence that the right person was announced winner that they will share in a more detailed judgment?

Offline bryan275

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Re: Dissenting Opinions of Njoki and Ojwang
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2017, 06:55:00 AM »
Termie I deleted my post as I was editing it and I'm not typing it again.

The constitution defines free and fair. The ruling simply said the elections were not free and fair because of bla de bla.

A repeat that yields exact same results reduces the free and fair issues to hygiene factors that shouldn't have invalidated the results in the first place.

Ojwang and Njoki stated in their dissent that the claims of not free and fair were spurious.
.
If uhuru had the numbers he needn't have rigged. I suspect he doesn't have the numbers and his waterloo is coming.