Author Topic: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.  (Read 22065 times)

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2017, 02:32:53 PM »
I think the reason why we cannot find an ideology in our politics is because of a misconception that  an ideology  must fit  neatly into the European left to right ideological spectrum chart.  If we cannot plot it in there and give it names like "far left", "left of center", "centrist", "right of center", or "far right",  then we assume that its not an ideology.  But even worse, when we do not quickly recognize it using those litmus tests then we tend to belittle it and describe it  in very condescending language.  For example, when I said I have supported Raila in the last three elections and I happen to be a luo then nobody bothers to ask me why because they assume that I am not capable of having an ideology and the only logical explanation is tribalism. Many Kenyans with all levels of education understood, debated, fought, died, took sides in the 1st liberation and 2nd liberation movements but they do not get credit for having an ideology.  The only thing that stands out for western educated political analysts is "tribalism" because it is easy and it makes them sound superior.  I was in Kenya recently and if you ask most people why they support NASA or Jubilee they will articulate reasons other than tribalism however, the elite pays them no mind and assume that their only reason is tribalism.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline vooke

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2017, 03:54:43 PM »
I think the reason why we cannot find an ideology in our politics is because of a misconception that  an ideology  must fit  neatly into the European left to right ideological spectrum chart.  If we cannot plot it in there and give it names like "far left", "left of center", "centrist", "right of center", or "far right",  then we assume that its not an ideology.  But even worse, when we do not quickly recognize it using those litmus tests then we tend to belittle it and describe it  in very condescending language.  For example, when I said I have supported Raila in the last three elections and I happen to be a luo then nobody bothers to ask me why because they assume that I am not capable of having an ideology and the only logical explanation is tribalism. Many Kenyans with all levels of education understood, debated, fought, died, took sides in the 1st liberation and 2nd liberation movements but they do not get credit for having an ideology.  The only thing that stands out for western educated political analysts is "tribalism" because it is easy and it makes them sound superior.  I was in Kenya recently and if you ask most people why they support NASA or Jubilee they will articulate reasons other than tribalism however, the elite pays them no mind and assume that their only reason is tribalism.
Whatever definition you work with of ideology, tribe trumps that for a better part
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2017, 04:48:34 PM »
I think the reason why we cannot find an ideology in our politics is because of a misconception that  an ideology  must fit  neatly into the European left to right ideological spectrum chart.  If we cannot plot it in there and give it names like "far left", "left of center", "centrist", "right of center", or "far right",  then we assume that its not an ideology.  But even worse, when we do not quickly recognize it using those litmus tests then we tend to belittle it and describe it  in very condescending language.  For example, when I said I have supported Raila in the last three elections and I happen to be a luo then nobody bothers to ask me why because they assume that I am not capable of having an ideology and the only logical explanation is tribalism. Many Kenyans with all levels of education understood, debated, fought, died, took sides in the 1st liberation and 2nd liberation movements but they do not get credit for having an ideology.  The only thing that stands out for western educated political analysts is "tribalism" because it is easy and it makes them sound superior.  I was in Kenya recently and if you ask most people why they support NASA or Jubilee they will articulate reasons other than tribalism however, the elite pays them no mind and assume that their only reason is tribalism.
Whatever definition you work with of ideology, tribe trumps that for a better part
vooke

I support Raila have done since 1997 after meeting him in 1992. What's my tribe? Joho supports him, what's his tribe? Check the number of votes Isaac Hassan decided to award Raila. What percentage are Luos? How about Uhuru what percentage of his votes are kikuyu?

Would you on that basis be willing to name the most tribal of the two persons - Uhuru and Raila? Since as you say tribe trumps all else?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2017, 07:03:38 PM »
I think the reason why we cannot find an ideology in our politics is because of a misconception that  an ideology  must fit  neatly into the European left to right ideological spectrum chart.  If we cannot plot it in there and give it names like "far left", "left of center", "centrist", "right of center", or "far right",  then we assume that its not an ideology.  But even worse, when we do not quickly recognize it using those litmus tests then we tend to belittle it and describe it  in very condescending language.  For example, when I said I have supported Raila in the last three elections and I happen to be a luo then nobody bothers to ask me why because they assume that I am not capable of having an ideology and the only logical explanation is tribalism. Many Kenyans with all levels of education understood, debated, fought, died, took sides in the 1st liberation and 2nd liberation movements but they do not get credit for having an ideology.  The only thing that stands out for western educated political analysts is "tribalism" because it is easy and it makes them sound superior.  I was in Kenya recently and if you ask most people why they support NASA or Jubilee they will articulate reasons other than tribalism however, the elite pays them no mind and assume that their only reason is tribalism.
Whatever definition you work with of ideology, tribe trumps that for a better part
vooke

I support Raila have done since 1997 after meeting him in 1992. What's my tribe? Joho supports him, what's his tribe? Check the number of votes Isaac Hassan decided to award Raila. What percentage are Luos? How about Uhuru what percentage of his votes are kikuyu?

Would you on that basis be willing to name the most tribal of the two persons - Uhuru and Raila? Since as you say tribe trumps all else?
Babu is light years ahead of Uhunye in terms of appeal outside their respective tribes. No doubt about that.

The average Luo is more likely to support him not because of what he stands for but that he is their own. What about the average Luhya? Historical cultural bonds-they are neighbors,historical grievances against previous governments-all they want is a different person at the helm, Babu's existing clout in and of itself makes a vote for him reasonable. In fact, I believe this is what made Matiba popular; the very fact that he appeared to stand a chance against Moi. Kina Aukot and Peter Kenneth would probably make better presidents but we all know they don't stand a chance. So even if you identify with their ideologies, you can't waste your vote

what am saying is , I doubt out of the 15M or so who will cast votes,10% are interested in ideologies
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2017, 07:58:15 PM »
Give some credit to the expansion of education first under Moi and then big time under NARC and NARA.

The many medium to highly educated Kikuyus that I see supporting baba more than many Luos have good reason for it. They have met Raila like I did and realized he has a vision. The reason many universities in the US scramble to invite him isn't because he lacks a coherent ideology.

We're back to the sixties when Kenyatta's lack of ideology and hatred for maumau was glorified while Odinga socialist leanings were smeared as "communism" and Cold War support requested to contain him. Never mind the architects of KPU were Kikuyus.

Here you're saying Luos are incapable of supporting someone on ideological basis.

I have heard some kikuyu intelligentsia say with a straight face that " Luos are like sheep" voting according to how Raila orders them. Until 2002 Luos and Kikuyus had the same and identical voting trends - with one caveat that in 1960s they voted overwhelmingly for Kanu and rejected kadu. Kanu even then was seen as an offshoot of KCA and later KAU all known kikuyu outfits.

After 2002 the Luo joined a rare club of Luhyas, miji kenda etc. needless to say the kikuyu have yet to vote enmase for anybody outside their tribe.

So vooke, let's agree on a criteria to use to determine whether voting trends are based on tribe ( my auto correct suggested trivialities).

Babu is light years ahead of Uhunye in terms of appeal outside their respective tribes. No doubt about that.

The average Luo is more likely to support him not because of what he stands for but that he is their own. What about the average Luhya? Historical cultural bonds-they are neighbors,historical grievances against previous governments-all they want is a different person at the helm, Babu's existing clout in and of itself makes a vote for him reasonable. In fact, I believe this is what made Matiba popular; the very fact that he appeared to stand a chance against Moi. Kina Aukot and Peter Kenneth would probably make better presidents but we all know they don't stand a chance. So even if you identify with their ideologies, you can't waste your vote

what am saying is , I doubt out of the 15M or so who will cast votes,10% are interested in ideologies
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2017, 08:44:31 PM »
Here goes the useless debate.

I guess if we are going by broad definition of ideology (to include tribalism, clannism, regionalism, etc) then the ours is an ideology-driven politics - where tribal kingpins form temporary alliance for sake of getting power and discard them as soon as they disgree. As for Kichwa believing in Raila on anything else rather than tribalism...that clear is rich! The first test was in 96 when all Luos troops from Ford-K to NDP. The second test of that ideology that Kichwa failed was 98 when NDP merged with KANU - and only few progressive like Orengo then refused - but Kichwa trooped to Baba Moi bosom.If Moi had endorsed Raila - Kichwa right now would be writting long inshas about KANU and why it's the best party in Africa. Then LDP then NARC then ODM then CORD then NASA - I mean it's been a full circle - where all sort of "ideologies" have been mixed and re-mixed.

Kenya politics is purely and nearly totally tribal. Only some 3-5% of kenya can be described non-tribal. Those voting for Raila or Uhuru who are not Kikuiyu or Luo are voting for their tribal leaders indirectly. The maragolis will vote MaDVD through Raila.  The coast brigade will be voting for Hassan Johos/Kingis [regional kingpin]. You can go on and on. That is why if today MaDVD wake up and say Uhuru tosha -- his troops will fall in line. If Joho patches his difference with Uhuru - the coast will soften.

The only way to win in Kenya is simple. Assemble the largest tribal coalition. Win the big tribes. Win the small tribes. Win the clans. Through their leaders.


Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2017, 08:43:27 AM »
What is silly and meaningless is the simplistic crap that "Kenyan politics is all about tribe".  What does that mean anyway? NOTHING!!.  Explain to me how 1) the 1st Liberation struggle was about tribe 2) how the 2nd liberation was about tribe 3) how the 2002 defeat of Moi/Kanu and project ouru was about tribe, 4) How the referendum for the new katiba was tribal 3) how the 2017 rejection of the failures of ouruto is all about tribe.  Stop trivializing and reducing complex Kenyan politics to fit your over stretched ego. Translate to me how those who are complaining about corruption, bei ya unga, unemployment, no access to health care, bad road,  corruption etc. are all engaged in tribal politics.   You have lied to people for too long.  Its ok to support ouru, campaign for him and  predict that ouru will win  but that does not mean your premise that tribe is the motivating factor of how Kenyans vote is true. When Jomo saw that he was losing the ideological debate to Jaramogi, he made it tribal and that is what you are trying to do.  It worked then but it may not work today. It only takes one election like 2002 to destroy your premise and all the juju statistics you call MOAS. Even witchdoctors are right sometimes.

Here goes the useless debate.

I guess if we are going by broad definition of ideology (to include tribalism, clannism, regionalism, etc) then the ours is an ideology-driven politics - where tribal kingpins form temporary alliance for sake of getting power and discard them as soon as they disgree. As for Kichwa believing in Raila on anything else rather than tribalism...that clear is rich! The first test was in 96 when all Luos troops from Ford-K to NDP. The second test of that ideology that Kichwa failed was 98 when NDP merged with KANU - and only few progressive like Orengo then refused - but Kichwa trooped to Baba Moi bosom.If Moi had endorsed Raila - Kichwa right now would be writting long inshas about KANU and why it's the best party in Africa. Then LDP then NARC then ODM then CORD then NASA - I mean it's been a full circle - where all sort of "ideologies" have been mixed and re-mixed.

Kenya politics is purely and nearly totally tribal. Only some 3-5% of kenya can be described non-tribal. Those voting for Raila or Uhuru who are not Kikuiyu or Luo are voting for their tribal leaders indirectly. The maragolis will vote MaDVD through Raila.  The coast brigade will be voting for Hassan Johos/Kingis [regional kingpin]. You can go on and on. That is why if today MaDVD wake up and say Uhuru tosha -- his troops will fall in line. If Joho patches his difference with Uhuru - the coast will soften.

The only way to win in Kenya is simple. Assemble the largest tribal coalition. Win the big tribes. Win the small tribes. Win the clans. Through their leaders.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
What you're calling first or 3rd liberation or 2010 constitution are the rare instances when most of the tribes agree something got to change. It doesn't mean tribalism has ended. It just mean the majority of tribes are convinced this the way to go. 1st liberation was not Uhuru- Jaramogi contest - it was kenya getting independence. Luos,Kambas and Kikuyu aligned together. Kalenjin, coast and Luhyas aligned together into KADU. All wanted Mzungu gone. After Jaramogi fell out with Kenyatta - Kenyatta simply did what politicians have been doing - he got kalenjin, coast and luhyas -
 to replace Luos - and from there Jaramogi was clearly just like Raila now - DEAD on ARRIVAL - Kenyatta had managed to gobble together a bigger tribal coalition and had isolated the Luos. The ideology bla de bla is just a cover that politician use - because it doesn't sound good to say we Luos want to become PORK --- so you sugar-coat it with stuff -  justice/equality - while the other side talks about say development/anti-socialism. Kenyatta's coalition would remain intact until Moi started falling out with Kikuyus & Luhyas with massive rigging of 1988 - that coalition of Luos, Kikuyus and Luhyas would toil it  but unable to unite - Moi's minority coalition continue rulling when 70% of the country was opposed to him- until 2002 - when Moi did the unthinkable by appointing a Kikuyu - leaving Raila & others with little option except to back another kikuyu - Kibaki. Moi decision to back Uhuru also raptured his KADU coalition that had kept him in power because coast, maragolis, kambas felt betrayed and joined Kibaki. After that - all the pretence of ideology of 90s from kikuyu politicians and intelligensia disappeared as it became the time to eat. 

And of course Raila fell out with Kibaki - and he inherited Moi coalition as ODM - that didn't last long - Kambas bolted out with Kalonzo - and Ruto has been trying to reclaim the remainder of KADU coalition from Raila.

So at end of the day -  TRIBE - TRIBAL COALITION - define our politics. Ideology  is zero. There will be time when tribal coalitions align to form a near national coalition - like 61 (all united against Mzungu)..92 (70% of country united against MOi & his tribal coalition) - or 2002 (65% of the country opposed Moi - who had raptured his tribal coalition by pulling a move nobody has been able to understand) - or 2010 - 70% of the country voted Yes --and that may confuse Kichwa that we have "abandoned" tribalism.

What is silly and meaningless is the simplistic crap that "Kenyan politics is all about tribe".  What does that mean anyway? NOTHING!!.  Explain to me how 1) the 1st Liberation struggle was about tribe 2) how the 2nd liberation was about tribe 3) how the 2002 defeat of Moi/Kanu and project ouru was about tribe, 4) How the referendum for the new katiba was tribal 3) how the 2017 rejection of the failures of ouruto is all about tribe.  Stop trivializing and reducing complex Kenyan politics to fit your over stretched ego. Translate to me how those who are complaining about corruption, bei ya unga, unemployment, no access to health care, bad road,  corruption etc. are all engaged in tribal politics.   You have lied to people for too long.  Its ok to support ouru, campaign for him and  predict that ouru will win  but that does not mean your premise that tribe is the motivating factor of how Kenyans vote is true. When Jomo saw that he was losing the ideological debate to Jaramogi, he made it tribal and that is what you are trying to do.  It worked then but it may not work today. It only takes one election like 2002 to destroy your premise and all the juju statistics you call MOAS. Even witchdoctors are right sometimes.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2017, 04:32:49 PM »
What is silly and meaningless is the simplistic crap that "Kenyan politics is all about tribe".  What does that mean anyway? NOTHING!!.  Explain to me how 1) the 1st Liberation struggle was about tribe 2) how the 2nd liberation was about tribe 3) how the 2002 defeat of Moi/Kanu and project ouru was about tribe, 4) How the referendum for the new katiba was tribal 3) how the 2017 rejection of the failures of ouruto is all about tribe.  Stop trivializing and reducing complex Kenyan politics to fit your over stretched ego. Translate to me how those who are complaining about corruption, bei ya unga, unemployment, no access to health care, bad road,  corruption etc. are all engaged in tribal politics.   You have lied to people for too long.  Its ok to support ouru, campaign for him and  predict that ouru will win  but that does not mean your premise that tribe is the motivating factor of how Kenyans vote is true. When Jomo saw that he was losing the ideological debate to Jaramogi, he made it tribal and that is what you are trying to do.  It worked then but it may not work today. It only takes one election like 2002 to destroy your premise and all the juju statistics you call MOAS. Even witchdoctors are right sometimes.

Here goes the useless debate.

I guess if we are going by broad definition of ideology (to include tribalism, clannism, regionalism, etc) then the ours is an ideology-driven politics - where tribal kingpins form temporary alliance for sake of getting power and discard them as soon as they disgree. As for Kichwa believing in Raila on anything else rather than tribalism...that clear is rich! The first test was in 96 when all Luos troops from Ford-K to NDP. The second test of that ideology that Kichwa failed was 98 when NDP merged with KANU - and only few progressive like Orengo then refused - but Kichwa trooped to Baba Moi bosom.If Moi had endorsed Raila - Kichwa right now would be writting long inshas about KANU and why it's the best party in Africa. Then LDP then NARC then ODM then CORD then NASA - I mean it's been a full circle - where all sort of "ideologies" have been mixed and re-mixed.

Kenya politics is purely and nearly totally tribal. Only some 3-5% of kenya can be described non-tribal. Those voting for Raila or Uhuru who are not Kikuiyu or Luo are voting for their tribal leaders indirectly. The maragolis will vote MaDVD through Raila.  The coast brigade will be voting for Hassan Johos/Kingis [regional kingpin]. You can go on and on. That is why if today MaDVD wake up and say Uhuru tosha -- his troops will fall in line. If Joho patches his difference with Uhuru - the coast will soften.

The only way to win in Kenya is simple. Assemble the largest tribal coalition. Win the big tribes. Win the small tribes. Win the clans. Through their leaders.

There are issues that Kenyans care about besides the tribe.  That is not in dispute.  Corruption, the economy, security etc.  They just believe their tribesman knows best how to deal with them.  Even if he is a major part of the problem.  The practical result is they don't care what the other side has to offer.

I think tribalism was not as entrenched as it is today after the 2nd liberation.  Even though you could see the nascent outlines then, there was still room for change.  Open tribalism was still frowned upon.  Those outlines hardened after Kibaki failed to take advantage of the NARC goodwill and slay it once and for all.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2017, 05:35:10 PM »
Have you honestly considered the fact that maybe you know nothing about both ideology and tribal voting.

Let me break it down for you. Its easier to motivate human beings into action through emotion than through reason. Fear is an emotion and voting is action.  Fear has therefore been used all over the world successfully to motivate people to vote one way or the other.

In 2002 the fear of MO/KANU continued rule through project Ouru was successfully used to motivate a majority of Kenyans to vote against Ouru.

In 2013, I do not believe Ourutu managed to get 50% plus but I believe a substantial number of Kenyans were motivated to vote for Ouru/RUTO to protect them from the fear of being incarcerated by ICC

Both the fear used in 2002 and 2013 to motivate people to vote one way or the other are not present in 2013.

While kikuyus are still highly motivated by the fear of losing power and fear of a jaluo being president and retaliating, Kalenjins and Merus/Embus are not as highly motivated by the same  factors and are therefore less fearful.

NASA has also found some fear factors this election year. 1) the rising cost of living and fear that it will get worse if tano tena  2) the fear that under ouruto corruption including Unga corruption will continue 3) the fear that the two tribes will continue to dominate kenya, 4) Fear that ouruto want to kill devolution, etc

So, Kenya's politics can be discussed/debated without insisting that the tribe is the only factor or  the major factor.  People who insist in this are those who feel that when Kenyan politics is described in tribal terms then they have an advantage, the rest are just lazy and accept the tribal argument because it is easier makes one look superior.

In conclusions MOAS assumes that the tribal fears invoked by ICC  in 2013 will work in 2017 because the tribal composition of Jubilee has not changed. Our argument is that 2017 is not 2013 and there are new issues which have cropped up.  Our other argument is that tribe is not the only factor that can be used emotionally to motivate people to vote.  You can use joblessness, hunger, high cost of living, poverty, rampant corruption, tyranny of two tribes, unity, equality, etc.  Pundit would not accept all these non tribal factors because it does not conform with his tribal narrative which he has to stick to because that is the only way his MOAS is going to work.





Kichwa. Wanjiku knows nothing about ideology. She knows her man is the lead Chef and thus expect a bigger share of the cooking unlike when another leader from a different tribe is the main chef.

The consolation only comes when Wanjiku has a representative in the Kitchen and thus knows that his man will have something for her .

The "politics of food and who is in the Kitchen" decides who rules Kenya.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2017, 06:36:02 PM »
Windy, what we are struggling with here is the role of  tribe in our voting behavior. There seems to be a strong correlation between  how we vote and what our tribe is.  Jubilee damu believe they have an advantage when Kenyans vote tribally because of the theory of tyranny of Kalenjin/Kikuyu numbers and therefore they strongly advocate for this theory.  My position is that tribe is a very effective tool to invoke an emotion of fear or pride which in turn motivates people to vote.  However, tribe is not the only tool that can be used to invoke emotions such as fear which are known world wide to  motivate people to vote in large numbers.  Jubilee must rely on tribe because that is the only factor that they have to motivate people to vote for them in 2017 as in 2013.  The only problem this time around is that they do not have ICC to instill maximum fear factor in there people to motivate them to the 2013 levels. They can still use fear and pride to motivate the Kalenjin and Kikuyus to vote as a block but its  going to be soft and may not penetrate as deep as in 2013. They can also invoke the domination/alpha male  theory of the two majority ruling material tribes to evoke their voters emotions to turn out in huge numbers.  However, usually the fear factor is more motivating when it comes to voting than mere pride. 

On the other hand, in 2013, the opposition had no similar emotive issue as Ouruto had in ICC.  This time around the opposition has the emotional  issues, of 1) fear of being dominated by Kikuyu/Kalenjin tribes 2) fear of high cost of living going higher and higher under ouruto  3) fear of corruption spiraling out of control under ouruto 4) fear of bei ya unga going up 5) fear of devolution being undermined by Ouruto. These fears have very little to do with tribe and may not have worked in 2013 but now with the ICC cloud lifted, there is a chance that they may work. MOAS is based on the premise that only tribe matters and nothing else.  I will not accept that argument because it is not true regardless of the outcome of this election.

It is therefore self serving for Pundit to argue tribe as the only factor and one can say that it is equally self serving for us to argue "other factors", however, if you consider both arguments, you will realize that "other factors" have a better chance this year than in 2013 because mambo ya badilika and "other factors"  are now stronger than tribe.  The argument that tribe is the only way we vote is no longer sustainable.


What is silly and meaningless is the simplistic crap that "Kenyan politics is all about tribe".  What does that mean anyway? NOTHING!!.  Explain to me how 1) the 1st Liberation struggle was about tribe 2) how the 2nd liberation was about tribe 3) how the 2002 defeat of Moi/Kanu and project ouru was about tribe, 4) How the referendum for the new katiba was tribal 3) how the 2017 rejection of the failures of ouruto is all about tribe.  Stop trivializing and reducing complex Kenyan politics to fit your over stretched ego. Translate to me how those who are complaining about corruption, bei ya unga, unemployment, no access to health care, bad road,  corruption etc. are all engaged in tribal politics.   You have lied to people for too long.  Its ok to support ouru, campaign for him and  predict that ouru will win  but that does not mean your premise that tribe is the motivating factor of how Kenyans vote is true. When Jomo saw that he was losing the ideological debate to Jaramogi, he made it tribal and that is what you are trying to do.  It worked then but it may not work today. It only takes one election like 2002 to destroy your premise and all the juju statistics you call MOAS. Even witchdoctors are right sometimes.

Here goes the useless debate.

I guess if we are going by broad definition of ideology (to include tribalism, clannism, regionalism, etc) then the ours is an ideology-driven politics - where tribal kingpins form temporary alliance for sake of getting power and discard them as soon as they disgree. As for Kichwa believing in Raila on anything else rather than tribalism...that clear is rich! The first test was in 96 when all Luos troops from Ford-K to NDP. The second test of that ideology that Kichwa failed was 98 when NDP merged with KANU - and only few progressive like Orengo then refused - but Kichwa trooped to Baba Moi bosom.If Moi had endorsed Raila - Kichwa right now would be writting long inshas about KANU and why it's the best party in Africa. Then LDP then NARC then ODM then CORD then NASA - I mean it's been a full circle - where all sort of "ideologies" have been mixed and re-mixed.

Kenya politics is purely and nearly totally tribal. Only some 3-5% of kenya can be described non-tribal. Those voting for Raila or Uhuru who are not Kikuiyu or Luo are voting for their tribal leaders indirectly. The maragolis will vote MaDVD through Raila.  The coast brigade will be voting for Hassan Johos/Kingis [regional kingpin]. You can go on and on. That is why if today MaDVD wake up and say Uhuru tosha -- his troops will fall in line. If Joho patches his difference with Uhuru - the coast will soften.

The only way to win in Kenya is simple. Assemble the largest tribal coalition. Win the big tribes. Win the small tribes. Win the clans. Through their leaders.

There are issues that Kenyans care about besides the tribe.  That is not in dispute.  Corruption, the economy, security etc.  They just believe their tribesman knows best how to deal with them.  Even if he is a major part of the problem.  The practical result is they don't care what the other side has to offer.

I think tribalism was not as entrenched as it is today after the 2nd liberation.  Even though you could see the nascent outlines then, there was still room for change.  Open tribalism was still frowned upon.  Those outlines hardened after Kibaki failed to take advantage of the NARC goodwill and slay it once and for all.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2017, 06:43:38 PM »
It's get even more ridiculous. Fear.what fear or ICC made Kalenjin oppose 2010 Constitution. What Moas do is simple. This a game of chess or checkers..we watch the moves of Queens n Kings.We assume rightly that the average Joe is pawn that Kings or queen will forward find an issue to convince them to move left or right.We watch the major waves.Ruto quit ODM on sagana...2008...and made a move to Uhuru corner...there was no ICC then...but as keen observer I knew Raila failure to get Ruto something bigger than min was the end of Raila n Ruto. It was made worse when Raila put MaDvd ahead.Whatever was to come as the issue was the EXCUSE. Don't of course the EXCUSEs politician use for issues.Ruto fell out with Raila the day Raila sidestepped Ruto n went to make a deal for himself in only. If Raila had been smart he would have anticipated Ruto reaction. You make a move but consider the moves your opponent will make.Right now I am convinced that jubilee will last coz Uhuru wants it to last..he knows how lethal WSR can get if scorned. It upon him to make GEMA understand that.We watch tribal Kings n Queens.In some studies they call it focus group. If you want to know how the country is...interview the ceos the top dogs...better still watch their moves.

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2017, 07:18:35 PM »
Again you deliberately misunderstand.  People can be persuaded by either reason or emotions to vote.  Usually human beings are easier to motivate to vote or to do anything using fear than reason.  If you have a cerebral argument and an emotional argument to motivate action, the emotive argument will prevail.  In 2010 referendum for the new Katiba there was no "fear" argument made that could be tribalized.  However, in 2013 the ICC was used very effectively to bring the Kalenjin and the Kikuyu together.  In 2017, you do not have a similar factor.  Kikuyus and Kalenjins still have other reasons to vote as a block and they will do so but its nothing like ICC and 2013.  On the NASA side, there are more issues which are very emotive and may provide the motivations to tip the scales. While your theory is based on tribe mine is that the side with  the most emotive issue wins.  I therefore predict that NASA will prevail in a free and fair election. Hayo tuu.

It's get even more ridiculous. Fear.what fear or ICC made Kalenjin oppose 2010 Constitution. What Moas do is simple. This a game of chess or checkers..we watch the moves of Queens n Kings.We assume rightly that the average Joe is pawn that Kings or queen will forward find an issue to convince them to move left or right.We watch the major waves.Ruto quit ODM on sagana...2008...and made a move to Uhuru corner...there was no ICC then...but as keen observer I knew Raila failure to get Ruto something bigger than min was the end of Raila n Ruto. It was made worse when Raila put MaDvd ahead.Whatever was to come as the issue was the EXCUSE. Don't of course the EXCUSEs politician use for issues.Ruto fell out with Raila the day Raila sidestepped Ruto n went to make a deal for himself in only. If Raila had been smart he would have anticipated Ruto reaction. You make a move but consider the moves your opponent will make.Right now I am convinced that jubilee will last coz Uhuru wants it to last..he knows how lethal WSR can get if scorned. It upon him to make GEMA understand that.We watch tribal Kings n Queens.In some studies they call it focus group. If you want to know how the country is...interview the ceos the top dogs...better still watch their moves.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2017, 07:30:13 PM »
In short you're trying to say Raila has more issues this time round something you said in 2013 .Sorry there are no issues at this stage...whoever convinced or bribed or threaten tribal or clan or regional leader will win.The voting automatons can save us billions by accepting voting by proxies...like in companies AGM... Where they simply nominate Raila or Ruto to vote for them...whatever the issue or position.We can learn a lot from companies... Voting by proxies should be allowed as a start.Let Raila appear with 2m proxies votes.Uhuru with 5m GEMA votes who have volunteered their votes to him....and like companies we can elect CEO in few minutes

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2017, 08:22:14 PM »
What I am saying, which is irrefutable,  is that in 2013, ICC was a huge factor which emotionally charged and motivated kikuyus and Kalenjins to come out in droves to vote for Ouruto.  It is also irrefutable that  ICC is not an issue in 2017. Tribe itself will get you votes but it will not get you enough votes to win every single presidential elections regardless of the issues facing the country.

It is also irrefutable that this time around, NASA has issues which are tribe neutral but can equally  invoke all kinds of emotions  which in turn can motivate people to get out and vote in droves.  I understand your tribal argument very well and your attempt to make it universal or a scientific fact through quackery. I am just not buying it like some people are.  That seems to make you angry and more arrogant.

In short you're trying to say Raila has more issues this time round something you said in 2013 .Sorry there are no issues at this stage...whoever convinced or bribed or threaten tribal or clan or regional leader will win.The voting automatons can save us billions by accepting voting by proxies...like in companies AGM... Where they simply nominate Raila or Ruto to vote for them...whatever the issue or position.We can learn a lot from companies... Voting by proxies should be allowed as a start.Let Raila appear with 2m proxies votes.Uhuru with 5m GEMA votes who have volunteered their votes to him....and like companies we can elect CEO in few minutes
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:23:15 PM by Kichwa-mmeza mate »
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2017, 09:20:51 PM »
2010 Kalenjin were told their land rights would be further eroded by the NLC to the advantage of Kikuyus, Kisiis, etc. While some christians believed trenches would be littered with foetuses once abortion was allowed by the new constitution. There was fear alright.

Again you deliberately misunderstand.  People can be persuaded by either reason or emotions to vote.  Usually human beings are easier to motivate to vote or to do anything using fear than reason.  If you have a cerebral argument and an emotional argument to motivate action, the emotive argument will prevail.  In 2010 referendum for the new Katiba there was no "fear" argument made that could be tribalized.  However, in 2013 the ICC was used very effectively to bring the Kalenjin and the Kikuyu together.  In 2017, you do not have a similar factor.  Kikuyus and Kalenjins still have other reasons to vote as a block and they will do so but its nothing like ICC and 2013.  On the NASA side, there are more issues which are very emotive and may provide the motivations to tip the scales. While your theory is based on tribe mine is that the side with  the most emotive issue wins.  I therefore predict that NASA will prevail in a free and fair election. Hayo tuu.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline vooke

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2017, 09:25:25 PM »
What I am saying, which is irrefutable,  is that in 2013, ICC was a huge factor which emotionally charged and motivated kikuyus and Kalenjins to come out in droves to vote for Ouruto.  It is also irrefutable that  ICC is not an issue in 2017. Tribe itself will get you votes but it will not get you enough votes to win every single presidential elections regardless of the issues facing the country.

It is also irrefutable that this time around, NASA has issues which are tribe neutral but can equally  invoke all kinds of emotions  which in turn can motivate people to get out and vote in droves.  I understand your tribal argument very well and your attempt to make it universal or a scientific fact through quackery. I am just not buying it like some people are.  That seems to make you angry and more arrogant.

In short you're trying to say Raila has more issues this time round something you said in 2013 .Sorry there are no issues at this stage...whoever convinced or bribed or threaten tribal or clan or regional leader will win.The voting automatons can save us billions by accepting voting by proxies...like in companies AGM... Where they simply nominate Raila or Ruto to vote for them...whatever the issue or position.We can learn a lot from companies... Voting by proxies should be allowed as a start.Let Raila appear with 2m proxies votes.Uhuru with 5m GEMA votes who have volunteered their votes to him....and like companies we can elect CEO in few minutes

I told you tribe and issue are different sides of the same coin. You need to get that. Starting point is, WHY did RVGEMA regard ICC a serious issue?

Why?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2017, 09:28:40 PM »
Agreed, fear factor was used in 2010 referendum to get NO votes, however, what made people vote YES was not fear but HOPE. In 2013, fear of ICC and their so called "domestic agents",  was the gift that kept on giving to ouruto.

2010 Kalenjin were told their land rights would be further eroded by the NLC to the advantage of Kikuyus, Kisiis, etc. While some christians believed trenches would be littered with foetuses once abortion was allowed by the new constitution. There was fear alright.

Again you deliberately misunderstand.  People can be persuaded by either reason or emotions to vote.  Usually human beings are easier to motivate to vote or to do anything using fear than reason.  If you have a cerebral argument and an emotional argument to motivate action, the emotive argument will prevail.  In 2010 referendum for the new Katiba there was no "fear" argument made that could be tribalized.  However, in 2013 the ICC was used very effectively to bring the Kalenjin and the Kikuyu together.  In 2017, you do not have a similar factor.  Kikuyus and Kalenjins still have other reasons to vote as a block and they will do so but its nothing like ICC and 2013.  On the NASA side, there are more issues which are very emotive and may provide the motivations to tip the scales. While your theory is based on tribe mine is that the side with  the most emotive issue wins.  I therefore predict that NASA will prevail in a free and fair election. Hayo tuu.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2017, 09:40:17 PM »
And I told you that an issue is not tied to tribe like both sides of a coin.  An issue can be tied to something else like, religion, regionalism, patriotism, etc.  At independence, the issue of freedom was not tied to a particular tribe but was appealing to most Kenyans as Africans.  Also, the 2nd liberation was not tied to any tribe.  I also believe that the issues NASA is expressing are not tied to any tribe.  It is therefore my humble opinion that tribe and issues are not two sides of the same coin (whatever what that means)  I also know that it is not in your interest at this time to separate issues from tribe and will do all the gymnastics to make them one and the same. Ourutu can only win if tribe is the only factor.


What I am saying, which is irrefutable,  is that in 2013, ICC was a huge factor which emotionally charged and motivated kikuyus and Kalenjins to come out in droves to vote for Ouruto.  It is also irrefutable that  ICC is not an issue in 2017. Tribe itself will get you votes but it will not get you enough votes to win every single presidential elections regardless of the issues facing the country.

It is also irrefutable that this time around, NASA has issues which are tribe neutral but can equally  invoke all kinds of emotions  which in turn can motivate people to get out and vote in droves.  I understand your tribal argument very well and your attempt to make it universal or a scientific fact through quackery. I am just not buying it like some people are.  That seems to make you angry and more arrogant.

In short you're trying to say Raila has more issues this time round something you said in 2013 .Sorry there are no issues at this stage...whoever convinced or bribed or threaten tribal or clan or regional leader will win.The voting automatons can save us billions by accepting voting by proxies...like in companies AGM... Where they simply nominate Raila or Ruto to vote for them...whatever the issue or position.We can learn a lot from companies... Voting by proxies should be allowed as a start.Let Raila appear with 2m proxies votes.Uhuru with 5m GEMA votes who have volunteered their votes to him....and like companies we can elect CEO in few minutes

I told you tribe and issue are different sides of the same coin. You need to get that. Starting point is, WHY did RVGEMA regard ICC a serious issue?

Why?
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline Kichwa

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Re: FINAL MOTHER OF ALL SPREADSHEETS (MOAS) FOR 2017 ELECTION.
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2017, 09:59:43 PM »
And I told you that an issue is not tied to tribe like both sides of a coin.  Other than tribe, an issue can be tied to something else like, race, creed, nationalism,  religion, regionalism, patriotism, etc.  At independence, the issue of freedom was not tied to a particular tribe but was appealing to most Kenyans as Africans and as the black race .  Also, the 2nd liberation was not tied to any tribe.  I also believe that the issues NASA is expressing are not tied to any tribe.  It is therefore my humble opinion that tribe and issues are not two sides of the same coin (whatever what that means)  I also know that it is not in your interest at this time to separate issues from tribe and will do all the gymnastics to make them one and the same. Ourutu can only win if tribe is the only factor.


What I am saying, which is irrefutable,  is that in 2013, ICC was a huge factor which emotionally charged and motivated kikuyus and Kalenjins to come out in droves to vote for Ouruto.  It is also irrefutable that  ICC is not an issue in 2017. Tribe itself will get you votes but it will not get you enough votes to win every single presidential elections regardless of the issues facing the country.

It is also irrefutable that this time around, NASA has issues which are tribe neutral but can equally  invoke all kinds of emotions  which in turn can motivate people to get out and vote in droves.  I understand your tribal argument very well and your attempt to make it universal or a scientific fact through quackery. I am just not buying it like some people are.  That seems to make you angry and more arrogant.

In short you're trying to say Raila has more issues this time round something you said in 2013 .Sorry there are no issues at this stage...whoever convinced or bribed or threaten tribal or clan or regional leader will win.The voting automatons can save us billions by accepting voting by proxies...like in companies AGM... Where they simply nominate Raila or Ruto to vote for them...whatever the issue or position.We can learn a lot from companies... Voting by proxies should be allowed as a start.Let Raila appear with 2m proxies votes.Uhuru with 5m GEMA votes who have volunteered their votes to him....and like companies we can elect CEO in few minutes

I told you tribe and issue are different sides of the same coin. You need to get that. Starting point is, WHY did RVGEMA regard ICC a serious issue?

Why?
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza