Author Topic: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final  (Read 10744 times)

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2017, 08:19:46 PM »
There you start with you ignorance. Why not google stuff. Why not do you homework. I am software engineer. I didn't study law but I do my homework. Easy - constitution - election laws - Iebc act - iebc regulations - and you're pretty much done.
His retallying of every polling station and of course the totals as tallied & announced at ROs.

Again, and I repeat that I might possibly have missed it: under what regulation or law would he go around doing that [for presidential elections].

Quote
All these are provisional until chebukaiti comb through - make sure they meet all criteria - for example if he discovers polling station x votes exceed the registered votes - and the RO didn't catch it - the law says - those votes have to be ignored.

Maybe I missed it, but which law says that?  Give us a direct reference: Act or Constitution or whatever, Part, Section, etc.   We can then continue the discussion on the basis of facts that all can readily verify.


Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2017, 08:26:37 PM »
There you start with you ignorance. Why not google stuff. Why not do you homework. I am software engineer. I didn't study law but I do my homework. Easy - constitution - election laws - Iebc act - iebc regulations - and you're pretty much done.

No need to be rude.   You stated that the law says this and that.   I asked you which law.  Now you claim not to know because you are a software engineer?   If you are unable to tell us which law you are referring to, because you did not study law, then it would be better that in the first place you do not make claims that the law says this and that.

Now, as a matter of fact, not even the IEBC has in court made the claims that you are making, and one presumes that their representatives in court did study law. 
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2017, 08:28:57 PM »
Do your homework. Google. That is what we software engineers do. Help ignorant people look smart.
No need to be rude.   You stated that the law says this and that.   I asked you which law.  Now you claim not to know because you are a software engineer?   If you are unable to tell us which law you are referring to, because you did not study law, then it would be better that in the first place you do not make claims that the law says this and that.

Now, as a matter of fact, not even the IEBC has in court made the claims that you are making, and one presumes that their representatives in court did study law. 

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2017, 08:33:15 PM »
Do your homework. Google. That is what we software engineers do. Help ignorant people look smart.

No kidding.   That is what software engineers do.  And you are a software engineer.    And you are asking me to use Google:D

Oh, I have gone already through " constitution - election laws - Iebc act - iebc regulations".   As I have said, I might have missed the laws you claim are applicable.  I was hoping you would help with that one.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2017, 08:35:38 PM »
Quick google search - IEBC regulation of 2013 - tallied returns from polling stations in which the votes allegedly cast exceeded the number of registered voters contrary to Regulation 83 of the Regulations;

In short IEBC regulation  (which is law) - for example - 83-  says polling station with cast votes exceeding registered votes cannot be tallied.

Do your homework. Google. That is what we software engineers do. Help ignorant people look smart.

No kidding.   That is what software engineers do.  And you are a software engineer.    And you are asking me to use Google:D

Oh, I have gone already through " constitution - election laws - Iebc act - iebc regulations".   As I have said, I might have missed the laws you claim are applicable.  I was hoping you would help with that one.   

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2017, 09:11:56 PM »
Still struggling - try here https://www.iebc.or.ke/uploads/resources/WxjVuUP8E1.pdf

That is certainly an admirable attempt.   And you found it even though you did not study law!  :D  But we stil have a little problem: you seem to have some difficulty in reading.     Your statements were that

Quote
National Tally Center - retally all polling stations - and if his total doesn't agree with ROs - that has to be resolved.

and that

Quote
All these are provisional until chebukaiti comb through - make sure they meet all criteria - for example if he discovers polling station x votes exceed the registered votes - and the RO didn't catch it - the law says - those votes have to be ignored.

So what I wanted information on: the laws that allow Chebukati and the National Polling Centre to go around doing this or that, as claimed by you, with numbers from polling stations

Now carefully read what you have just given us:

Quote
83. (1)Immediately after the results of the poll from all polling stations in a constituency have been received by the returning officer

And just to clarify any doubts about who all of that refers to, it cannot possibly be the National Tallying Centre or Chebukati, because that person is then required to:

Quote
(e) complete the relevant Form 35B and 36B for the respective elective position set out in the Schedule in which the returning officer shall declare, as the case may be,
...
(h) deliver to the county returning officer the collated results for the election of the county Governor, Senator and county women representative to the National Assembly; and

(i) deliver to the Chairperson of the Commission the collated results for the election of the President to the national tallying centre.

In fine, what you claim applies to the National Tallying Centre and Chebukati appears to be applicable only to the constituency returning officer.     We now give you the opportunity to have another go, with another law, or to help us uderstand what we have missed above.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2017, 09:17:29 PM »
Okay this is just too much foolishness on a friday. You want me to help with English comprehension too?. What hell does verify means to you. If not verify that RO did follows the IEBC regulations. Ohoo boy read the entire IEBC regulation. Look at form 34 (abcd or z) go to form 35/36.They are all annexed there. The entire election procedure is starring right at you. Jesus - how obtuse can you be. I am off to the bar now.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2017, 09:32:24 PM »
Okay this is just too much foolishness on a friday. You want me to help with English comprehension too?. What hell does verify means to you. If not verify that RO did follows the IEBC regulations. Ohoo boy read the entire IEBC regulation. Look at form 34 (abcd or z) go to form 35/36.They are all annexed there. The entire election procedure is starring right at you. Jesus - how obtuse can you be. I am off to the bar now.

Again, the rudeness does not help.  You claimed that certain laws allow the National Tallying Centre and Chebukati to do this and that with figures from polling stations---retallying, rejecting and whatever.  I asked you which laws.   You gave us something, and I commented on that.  I think all can see that.   

I did look at the annexed forms.   Perhaps  I missed something.   Which particular forms do you have in mind, and how do they support your story?
   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Omollo

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7143
  • Reputation: 13780
  • http://www.omollosview.com
    • Omollosview
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2017, 09:40:28 PM »
The idea behind the final result at Constituency was exactly what Pundit is touching but from the opposite side.

If results are found to exceed the number of registered voters:

A. Pundit wants Chebukati to fix it so that the final figure is well within the upper limit of the registered voters
B. Maina wants that as evidence of electoral malpractice that should be looked in to and perhaps discover other maleficence

Here is how one can look at it

A = a cover up of illegality
B = Can in the long run serve as a deterrent 
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2017, 09:41:16 PM »
So if I am RO of this bar - and I fill form 34 (C) - and claim more people are here than what IEBC have in the database - what do you think chebukati should do. The IEBC regulation say he verify. If that is not the case - I have heard they ask RO/Agents who accompanied him/her to get into a small room and figure that out - otherwise they have to reject that polling station.

If alteration are made or someone is allowed to vote while his name is not in register but PO believe he is or whatever...IEBC have AFFIDAVITS that XYZ will fill and sign. If for example RO re-do the maths in tallying center and discover indeed he made an error - he is given an affidavit to fill saying - explaining why.

I don't know why you want chebukati to just become conveyor belt of any crap.
 
I did look at the annexed forms.   Perhaps  I missed something.   Which particular forms do you have in mind, and how do they support your story?
   

Offline Omollo

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7143
  • Reputation: 13780
  • http://www.omollosview.com
    • Omollosview
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2017, 09:42:47 PM »
Not to interfere with a vibrant debate I noted this:

(i) deliver to the Chairperson of the Commission the collated results for the election of the President to the national tallying centre.

I am awaiting the CoA Judgment but I recall (vaguely) the Judges saying this requirement was totally obsolete where there is technology that transmits the results.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7143
  • Reputation: 13780
  • http://www.omollosview.com
    • Omollosview
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2017, 09:44:06 PM »
Again not to butt in to much:

The Judges urged Chebukati to only employ people of the highest integrity.

So if I am RO of this bar - and I fill form 34 (C) - and claim more people are here than what IEBC have in the database - what do you think chebukati should do. The IEBC regulation say he verify. If that is not the case - I have heard they ask RO/Agents who accompanied him/her to get into a small room and figure that out - otherwise they have to reject that polling station.

If alteration are made or someone is allowed to vote while his name is not in register but PO believe he is or whatever...IEBC have AFFIDAVITS that XYZ will fill and sign. If for example RO re-do the maths in tallying center and discover indeed he made an error - he is given an affidavit to fill saying - explaining why.

I don't know why you want chebukati to just become conveyor belt of any crap.
 
I did look at the annexed forms.   Perhaps  I missed something.   Which particular forms do you have in mind, and how do they support your story?
   
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Online RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38137
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2017, 09:48:16 PM »
You are mis-characterizing again deliberately. If there are mathematical errors- like some dyslexic RO mixes numbers instead of 37 he writes 73...he should be allowed to correct and he should file an affidavit explaining why he made the correction..they are aggregate...what is final is what is sealed in the ballot box. That is final. Whatever chebukait play with is basically aggregate. If whatever is in the box - is wrong - and is not due to tallying errors - then those results ought to be rejected - as rejected votes - and somebody think they are significant errors - they can fill a petition. If it's minor error here and there that seem fair - no big deal - this is a huge human endavour - 41,000 polling stations - with nearly 200,000 staff or more.
The idea behind the final result at Constituency was exactly what Pundit is touching but from the opposite side.

If results are found to exceed the number of registered voters:

A. Pundit wants Chebukati to fix it so that the final figure is well within the upper limit of the registered voters
B. Maina wants that as evidence of electoral malpractice that should be looked in to and perhaps discover other maleficence

Here is how one can look at it

A = a cover up of illegality
B = Can in the long run serve as a deterrent 

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2017, 10:44:09 PM »
So if I am RO of this bar - and I fill form 34 (C) - and claim more people are here than what IEBC have in the database - what do you think chebukati should do. The IEBC regulation say he verify. If that is not the case - I have heard they ask RO/Agents who accompanied him/her to get into a small room and figure that out - otherwise they have to reject that polling station.

If alteration are made or someone is allowed to vote while his name is not in register but PO believe he is or whatever...IEBC have AFFIDAVITS that XYZ will fill and sign. If for example RO re-do the maths in tallying center and discover indeed he made an error - he is given an affidavit to fill saying - explaining why.

I don't know why you want chebukati to just become conveyor belt of any crap.

First, there is  problem with any "verify", and the present legal fisticuffs are partly about that.   But that doesn't matter for our purposes here.    So, to simplify this argument, let us accept that the IEBC has the power to verify whatever.     Now, the standard definition of "verify" is that it means  to "confirm", or "substantiate", or .... There is nothing in the definition includes any sort of remedial action.    Therefore, at best, Chebukati may have the power to say (confirm) that the numbers add up or that they don't (not confirm).  I don't see how that form or the bits of regulation you have given us gives him the power to reject anything, as you have claimed in:

Quote
All these are provisional until chebukaiti comb through - make sure they meet all criteria - for example if he discovers polling station x votes exceed the registered votes - and the RO didn't catch it - the law says - those votes have to be ignored.

In fact, there is actually no allowance in Form 34C for him to even  indicate that he disagrees with any numbers.   

Blue:   I can't comment on what you have heard; I can only comment on what law says.  Still, one of the things that should be prevented at all costs is that of someone in Nairobi being able to ask constituency returning officers to go into a small room and come up with new numbers.   

You still repeat the claim that

Quote
otherwise they have to reject that polling station.
 

I thought we had gone through this.   If by "they" you mean the constituency returning officers, then, yes, it appears that they have that power; and there is an explicit regulation to suggest that.  But I have yet to see anything to support the claim that Chebukati and his Commission also have the same power.

Quote
I don't know why you want chebukati to just become conveyor belt of any crap.

It has nothing to do with what I want or anyone else wants.  It is about what the law says (and to the extent that any such law is consistent with the constitution).
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2017, 10:48:25 PM »
You are mis-characterizing again deliberately. If there are mathematical errors- like some dyslexic RO mixes numbers instead of 37 he writes 73...he should be allowed to correct and he should file an affidavit explaining why he made the correction..they are aggregate...what is final is what is sealed in the ballot box. That is final.

Before I make a substantive comment on that one, may I ask what regulation or law or whatever would permit a returning officer to do that in such a (hypothetical) case after he/she has already submitted results.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 11254
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2017, 11:27:50 PM »
Chebukati is discovering that people don't trust the "new" IEBC. Poor guy didn't realize what he was getting into. He has cut weight.

Again not to butt in to much:

The Judges urged Chebukati to only employ people of the highest integrity.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2017, 11:56:39 PM »
Just finished reading the ruling:  http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/blog/post/court-of-appeal-judgment-on-presidential-tally-case

It is worth a careful read, because it is very mindful of the context in which all this is taking place---the historical mischief at the "national tallying centre",  the intent of the new constitution, the Kriegler stuff, etc.

Perhaps those who disagree with it will identify those bits they find problematic and on what basis.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kichwa

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2886
  • Reputation: 2697
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2017, 12:01:25 AM »
Its ok for Pundit to disagree with the judges decision but all these issues were litigated and the judges have made the correct decision in my view.  Let us move on to the ballot printing matter.
"I have done my job and I will not change anything dead or a live" Malonza

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8778
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2017, 02:19:54 AM »
Just finished reading the ruling:  http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/blog/post/court-of-appeal-judgment-on-presidential-tally-case

It is worth a careful read, because it is very mindful of the context in which all this is taking place---the historical mischief at the "national tallying centre",  the intent of the new constitution, the Kriegler stuff, etc.

Perhaps those who disagree with it will identify those bits they find problematic and on what basis.

It's very detailed and convincing.  This SCOK will be well advised to maybe just keep a safe distance from this case.  They can't change it without looking bad.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman