IEBC versus NASA - Presidential tallying - who is the final

[Omollo]

With a transparent process crying wolf will be quite unbecoming. And dismissable. Any polling station with issues can easily be physically recounted. Omollo cannot talk about Safaricom interception rigging center.

Now let us get rid of Al Ghurair and be done with this.

In fact that just became even more urgent because the appeals court now placed more emphasis on the electronic results transmitted to the IEBC.

[RV Pundit]

You amaze me. National Tallying Center can be scrutinized if the issue is Kivuitu kind of games.But you imagine people in Luo Nyanza or Kikuyu or Kalenjin will be transparent . The presiding officer, tally clerk and agents are local people. They will collude.In each of stronghold - people will collude and that will be final. Previously the presiding officer would fear the RO - he has go there and explain. Now whatever he does is dried in ink. RO would fear Chebukati. Now everyone is just conveyor belt.

This will be chaos. We will see very funny results. It like opening up it up for rigging bonanza. We have totally emasculated IEBC and left it at whims of presiding officers. Our election will be no different from party primaries...totally corrupt.

Now if I am planning to rig - I first rig my stronghold by asking POs to declare the results I want - and in battleground - it will be battle of who can bribe/buy POs/agents - in meantime Chebukati can go home after he hires POS. He is basically useless.

With a transparent process crying wolf will be quite unbecoming. And dismissable. Any polling station with issues can easily be physically recounted. Omollo cannot talk about Safaricom interception rigging center.

Now let us get rid of Al Ghurair and be done with this.

[Nefertiti]

The question without answer has been what formula RO or Chebukati uses to correct the PO's mischief. There are party agents to co-sign the forms. And media cameras and police to stop intimidation of the agents. POs and ROs can be dragged to Supreme Court - and jailed! - as the next step of cleanup. But we should give it a chance and perfect it down the road - instead of now where every Kenyan believes their candidate won.

You amaze me. National Tallying Center can be scrutinized if the issue is Kivuitu kind of games.But you imagine people in Luo Nyanza or Kikuyu or Kalenjin will be transparent . The presiding officer, tally clerk and agents are local people. They will collude.In each of stronghold - people will collude and that will be final. Previously the presiding officer would fear the RO - he has go there and explain. Now whatever he does is dried in ink. RO would fear Chebukati. Now everyone is just conveyor belt.

This will be chaos. We will see very funny results. It like opening up it up for rigging bonanza. We have totally emasculated IEBC and left it at whims of presiding officers. Our election will be no different from party primaries...totally corrupt.

Now if I am planning to rig - I first rig my stronghold by asking POs to declare the results I want - and in battleground - it will be battle of who can bribe/buy POs/agents - in meantime Chebukati can go home after he hires POS. He is basically useless.

[RV Pundit]

Okay go ahead drag 40,000 POs to the supreme court. ROs & Chebukati are emasculated here. This is foolishness of highest order. I'd prefer some rigging that give us some semblance of credible election. But a free for all? What is that gonna do to this country! Makes main election as farcical as party primaries.

The solutions is build in more controls - not to let guys in my polling station do whatever they want - and that is final. If the fear is alteration - why not add more controls - although I think they are sufficent now.

The question without answer has been what formula RO or Chebukati uses to correct the PO's mischief. There are party agents to co-sign the forms. And media cameras and police to stop intimidation of the agents. POs and ROs can be dragged to Supreme Court - and jailed! - as the next step of cleanup. But we should give it a chance and perfect it down the road - instead of now where every Kenyan believes their candidate won.

[Omollo]

That argument of dragging 290 ROs to the court was raised and dismissed by the court in the judgement. Petitions are not filed against 290 ROs as they are working for the IEBC. The IEBC as a body is composed of among others its officers and functionaries.

Nobody has been emasculated beyond his ability to perform his lawful duties in the conduct of elections. What has been taken away are illegitimate powers and claims to power beyond what is conferred by the constitution.

Okay go ahead drag 40,000 POs to the supreme court. ROs & Chebukati are emasculated here. This is foolishness of highest order. I'd prefer some rigging that give us some semblance of credible election. But a free for all? What is that gonna do to this country! Makes main election as farcical as party primaries.

The solutions is build in more controls - not to let guys in my polling station do whatever they want - and that is final. If the fear is alteration - why not add more controls - although I think they are sufficent now.

The question without answer has been what formula RO or Chebukati uses to correct the PO's mischief. There are party agents to co-sign the forms. And media cameras and police to stop intimidation of the agents. POs and ROs can be dragged to Supreme Court - and jailed! - as the next step of cleanup. But we should give it a chance and perfect it down the road - instead of now where every Kenyan believes their candidate won.

[RV Pundit]

I think it's no longer the ROs - it now Polling Station results are final. 290 was going to be some chaos. 40,000 final results is incredible chaos. If this doesn't get altered by Supreme Court - then we will have very interesting election that will probably be overturned for lacking any credibility. And Chebukati will say the judiciary tied his hands.

That argument of dragging 290 ROs to the court was raised and dismissed by the court in the judgement. Petitions are not filed against 290 ROs as they are working for the IEBC. The IEBC as a body is composed of among others its officers and functionaries.

Nobody has been emasculated beyond his ability to perform his lawful duties in the conduct of elections. What has been taken away are illegitimate powers and claims to power beyond what is conferred by the constitution.

[Kichwa]

2007 and 2013 elections should have been overturned and yet we had one presidential RO.  I always get very suspicious when people use "chaos" and "order" as arguments for more power.  It is very easy to review 41, 000 polling station results if need be but most of the time there will be a pre-trial conference to narrow down which out of 41,000 polling stations that are in dispute.  But even if we need to recount in all 41,000 to ensure that peoples choice is respected, then we can do them simultaneously in one day. The notion that expediency overrides everything else is ridiculous to say the least.

I think it's no longer the ROs - it now Polling Station results are final. 290 was going to be some chaos. 40,000 final results is incredible chaos. If this doesn't get altered by Supreme Court - then we will have very interesting election that will probably be overturned for lacking any credibility. And Chebukati will say the judiciary tied his hands.

That argument of dragging 290 ROs to the court was raised and dismissed by the court in the judgement. Petitions are not filed against 290 ROs as they are working for the IEBC. The IEBC as a body is composed of among others its officers and functionaries.

Nobody has been emasculated beyond his ability to perform his lawful duties in the conduct of elections. What has been taken away are illegitimate powers and claims to power beyond what is conferred by the constitution.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Who cares about IEBC? -it's more about the political contestants and Kenyans at large - are they more or less confident in the IEBC and the elections? As long as there is one presiding officer per polling station no chaos should occur. I can sit in my house and add up 10K stations and come up with the same results as Chebukati - not him to disappear for 2 days "tallying results" behind CLOSED DOORS. No matter how clean you are, doing things behind closed doors raises suspicion.

That right there is the problem.  What does he do with the results to arrive at a different number than what the ROs have given him? How does he know the correct tally in such a scenario?

[Omollo]

You are an IT guy. So you tell us why we would invest in an expensive result system which takes days to come up with results. FYI do not bet on this one working.

Who cares about IEBC? -it's more about the political contestants and Kenyans at large - are they more or less confident in the IEBC and the elections? As long as there is one presiding officer per polling station no chaos should occur. I can sit in my house and add up 10K stations and come up with the same results as Chebukati - not him to disappear for 2 days "tallying results" behind CLOSED DOORS. No matter how clean you are, doing things behind closed doors raises suspicion.

That right there is the problem.  What does he do with the results to arrive at a different number than what the ROs have given him? How does he know the correct tally in such a scenario?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

You are an IT guy. So you tell us why we would invest in an expensive result system which takes days to come up with results. FYI do not bet on this one working.

Who cares about IEBC? -it's more about the political contestants and Kenyans at large - are they more or less confident in the IEBC and the elections? As long as there is one presiding officer per polling station no chaos should occur. I can sit in my house and add up 10K stations and come up with the same results as Chebukati - not him to disappear for 2 days "tallying results" behind CLOSED DOORS. No matter how clean you are, doing things behind closed doors raises suspicion.

That right there is the problem.  What does he do with the results to arrive at a different number than what the ROs have given him? How does he know the correct tally in such a scenario?

From my perspective, the system is irrelevant if Chebukati is allowed to opaquely change the transmitted data anyway.  It could be useful if the transmission is to the Constituency ROs from polling stations.

[MOON Ki]

The idea that Chebukati is somehow in a position to correct results from lower levels is an interesting one.   Who is more likely to have accurate information?  Chebukati in Nairobi or the person at the polling station?

Anyways ...

For those thinking of the Supreme Court, the lower courts already referenced the Supreme Court in their decisions.   This will help:

The Commission has no power to verify or confirm the results declared by the constituency returning officer. This is what the Supreme Court stated Once the returning officer makes a decision regarding the validity of a ballot or a vote, this decision becomes final, and only challengeable in an election petition.

http://kenyalaw.org/caselaw/cases/view/133874/

Perhaps the Supreme Court will wiggle around and change what it already stated?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

For those thinking of the Supreme Court, the lower courts already referenced the Supreme Court in their decisions.   This will help:

The Commission has no power to verify or confirm the results declared by the constituency returning officer. This is what the Supreme Court stated Once the returning officer makes a decision regarding the validity of a ballot or a vote, this decision becomes final, and only challengeable in an election petition.

http://kenyalaw.org/caselaw/cases/view/133874/

Perhaps the Supreme Court will wiggle around and change what it already stated?

I don't put it past them.  They could just say this does not apply to the Presidential election.

[MOON Ki]

I don't put it past them.  They could just say this does not apply to the Presidential election.

This is Kenya, so I too wouldn't put it past them.     The challenge for them would be in the fact that the statement is phrased in terms of the validity of ballots/votes, and the constituency returning officer does the counting for all levels:

president

It would be interesting to see an argument to the effect that the constituency returning officer's are final for (b)-(f), because he/she is best placed to make that decision, but that they are not final for (a), even though the same person counts those votes and reports the numbers.

[MOON Ki]

NASA has lost the case after IEBC went to court of Apeal.IEBC Chairman is the final Person to declare Presidential election at National tallying Centre....and not at Constituency level as demanded by NASA.

This was so commonsensical - NASA  & their groupies like Maina Kiai - just want to look for all excuses when they lose the election.

 

[RV Pundit]

That is not the issue. IEBC and everyone agree with finality of RO as far as validity of every vote cast - as in valid/invalid/ cast for xyz etc. What Chebukati and Country RO need is powers to re-do the sums of all polling station. Not to just take RO figures - even if there are mathematical errors - like transposition or etc. Chebukati doesn't receive the ballots. They stay with RO. What Chebukati receive is final tally as summed up by RO and all the forms from every polling station. Chebukati then has to re-do the maths - and where he find errors (and they always do find a lot of them) - would ask the RO and agents to correct it - these are mostly mathematical errors due to fatigue or plain mischief- and they are tonnes of them - because RO is working on six elections & by day 2 or 3 is pretty tired - recounting every ballot.

It quite simple.
POs - count all ballots/decide which is valid/invalid - and announce results at polling stations - then submit forms and all ballots materials to ROs at Const Tallying Center.
ROs - re-count, re-examine the ballots and make the final declaration as for validity - tally and submit all the forms. He keeps the ballot boxes in secure places. That is why he the final as far as declaring every individual vote. Not final in tallying.
CROS - retally from all forms and if his tally disagree with ROS..that has to be resolved.
National Tally Center - retally all polling stations - and if his total doesn't agree with ROs - that has to be resolved.

Where is the problem in there? obviously at every stage - forms have to be verified - all signatures checked - serial numbers ticked.

I don't see where complication is coming from. I worked in 02 as IEBC clerk. It pretty straighforward job. Kibaki rigging was brazen and ought to be have caught by any supreme court. Kivuitu didn't rig at tallying center - Ruto & karuas spend nights there - the rigging happen thro compromised ROS - who switched off their phones and disappeared - to later re-appear with results. 2007 rigging did not happen through the national tallying center that is watched keenly by everyone.

Kivuitu didn't steal the vote...he was hapless fool who was forced to announce the results he had no way of verifying. The ROS in central, eastern and kibaki places stole the vote. Now we've empowered them to steal at grand scale because we don't trust ODM life member Chebukait. It tragic. It's laughable. You eliminate extra controls and pray for the best . Now ROs can even sit down and cook figures - and send Chebukati an SMS and that would final.He can proceed to burn the warehouse where he keep ballots boxes and that is it.

The idea that Chebukati is somehow in a position to correct results from lower levels is an interesting one.   Who is more likely to have accurate information?  Chebukati in Nairobi or the person at the polling station?

Anyways ...

For those thinking of the Supreme Court, the lower courts already referenced the Supreme Court in their decisions.   This will help:

The Commission has no power to verify or confirm the results declared by the constituency returning officer. This is what the Supreme Court stated Once the returning officer makes a decision regarding the validity of a ballot or a vote, this decision becomes final, and only challengeable in an election petition.

http://kenyalaw.org/caselaw/cases/view/133874/

Perhaps the Supreme Court will wiggle around and change what it already stated?

[MOON Ki]

That is not the issues. IEBC and everyone agree with finality of RO as far as validity of every vote cast - as in valid/invalid/ cast for xyz etc. What Chebukati and Country RO need is powers to re-do the sums of all polling station. Not to just take RO figures - even if there are mathematical errors - like transposition or etc. Chebukati doesn't receive the ballots. They stay with RO. What Chebukati receive is final tally as summed up by RO and all the forms from every polling station. Chebukati then has to re-do the maths - and where he find errors - would ask the RO and agents to correct it - these are mathematical errors- and they are tonnes of it - because RO is working on six elections & by day 2 or 3 is pretty tired.

You might want to read the ruling carefully to see why it is an issue and why the lower court made a big deal of it.

Anyways ...

If all agree "agree with finality of RO as far as validity of every vote", and it is only those votes deemed valid by the returning officers that are counted and the number reported to the IEBC, then what exactly has the IEBC arguing about in court?

Just taking red out of that paragraph as another questionable point: how would Chebukati know that some figures had been transposed?

Also, Chebukati must not be allowed to go back to the returning officers and ask for "corrections", nor can the returning officers be allowed to make "corrections".    Otherwise, it is possible to then have a situation where results are publicly declared but  then there is some back-and-forth that allows for "adjustments" and mischief.      The lower court was correct to determine that once a returning officer has declared a number, any problems are for the Election Court to sort out. 

In that case, the challenge---and it doesn't seem like a bit one---is for the IEBC to make sure that those hired as returning officers can do their sums and also double-check them.  This is simple arithmetic, not advanced abstract algebra.

[MOON Ki]

National Tally Center - retally all polling stations - and if his total doesn't agree with ROs - that has to be resolved.

You lost me there.  Perhaps I have missed it: Under what regulation or law does the "National Tally Center" work with re-tally numbers from all polling stations?   As far as I can tell, what this "Centre" does, for presidential elections, is do the sums on figures from the 290 constituency returning officers.   

[RV Pundit]

Results are announced at many stage. At polling station. At Const Tallying Center. At the Country Tallying Center and finally at National Tallying center. The finality of PORK ought to be at National Tallying center.

Polling stations results cannot become final otherwise POs has to keep the ballots boxes secure incase of a dispute.If he makes final declaration and he has no ballot papers to back it up - he can always says that is what we counted!!

Const RO keep the ballots boxes in sealed boxes - and therefore announce the "final" results.

But they can introduce errors while tallying. That is why Chebukati demands for all forms. RIght from what he received from Polling station. His retallying of every polling station and of course the totals as tallied & announced at ROs.

All these are provisional until chebukaiti comb through - make sure they meet all criteria - for example if he discovers polling station x votes exceed the registered votes - and the RO didn't catch it - the law says - those votes have to be ignored.

Chebukati and Ros should be allowed to make corrections. As long as they are documented in different forms. And that is what happens. National tallying center - they don't alter the original forms. They keep them. They alteration they made is kept. If you dispute you have a paper trail.

Where rigging happens and will happen is RO...coz he is the guy who keeps the ballot boxes..so if he rigs..he has to open the seals, make sure the papers in their tally, re-seal and everything is done deal. You're giving them unfettered powers.  Let us at least verify and re-tallying their aggregates.

You might want to read the ruling carefully to see why it is an issue and why the lower court made a big deal of it.

Anyways ...

If all agree "agree with finality of RO as far as validity of every vote", and it is only those votes deemed valid by the returning officers that are counted and the number reported to the IEBC, then what exactly has the IEBC arguing about in court?

Just taking red out of that paragraph as another questionable point: how would Chebukati know that some figures had been transposed?

Also, Chebukati must not be allowed to go back to the returning officers and ask for "corrections", nor can the returning officers be allowed to make "corrections".    Otherwise, it is possible to then have a situation where results are publicly declared but  then there is some back-and-forth that allows for "adjustments" and mischief.      The lower court was correct to determine that once a returning officer has declared a number, any problems are for the Election Court to sort out. 

In that case, the challenge---and it doesn't seem like a bit one---is for the IEBC to make sure that those hired as returning officers can do their sums.

[RV Pundit]

Chebukaiti has to receive all the form 34s - from every polling station -as filled by POS - and then same forms as filled by ROS- and then total (another form -36 or something) - and verify each and everyone of them - in presence of agents & observers - and where there is difference btw PO/ROS - that has to documented (signatures of agents/observers etc) - and of course the tallying by ROS is not final- Chebukait has to redo the tallying again!

RO is only final in as far as he knows who voted for who because he keeps the ballots boxes. And in case of any dispute - he provides them to court - and they are opened and a judge can sit through re-counting - and he can explain why he made xyz valid for w or Q or invalid.

You lost me there.  Perhaps I have missed it: Under what regulation or law does the "National Tally Center" work with re-tally numbers from all polling stations?   As far as I can tell, what this "Centre" does, for presidential elections, is do the sums on figures from the 290 constituency returning officers.   

[MOON Ki]

His retallying of every polling station and of course the totals as tallied & announced at ROs.

Again, and I repeat that I might possibly have missed it: under what regulation or law would he go around doing that [for presidential elections].

All these are provisional until chebukaiti comb through - make sure they meet all criteria - for example if he discovers polling station x votes exceed the registered votes - and the RO didn't catch it - the law says - those votes have to be ignored.

Maybe I missed it, but which law says that?  Give us a direct reference: Act or Constitution or whatever, Part, Section, etc.   We can then continue the discussion on the basis of facts that all can readily verify.