Author Topic: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?  (Read 10763 times)

Offline gout

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The end of Mugabe's Zimbabwe is near or is it?

Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline Kadudu

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 09:49:46 AM »
No civil war. Zimbabweans especially the Shona are too timid.
The vice president Emmerson Mnangagwa aka The Crocodile will takeover and send (Dis)Grace Mugabe to exil.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 02:34:09 PM »
They will probably improve.  Zim still has a lot of the goodies, if in need of some polish, that bazungu left for them.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 03:36:42 PM »
I think once the senile Mugabe dies people will be pleasantly surprised to discover the sky won't cave as is widely feared. They may have teething problems adjusting to freedom like Kenya but they will be fine. Peaceful exit is much more preferable as can be seen in other third world nations.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Omollo

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 07:08:10 PM »
Mugabe like Nyerere managed to create a country with a singular identity - even if some things still resemble the rest of Africa.

He is a socialist - which means and has always meant the idea of overthrowing him in a coup would forever remain a mirage. Real socialists are never overthrown in Africa. The closest they come is to be deposed in an inside the palace coup. Otherwise one has to kill them.

Mugabe avoided both and is on his way to die in office - partly because nobody allowed him to make his own choice and he is given to defiance.

I can't see power leaving ZANU PF. I think a loyalist will take over. The MDC has no chance in Zimbabwe having been exposed as a white man's front. Changerai had a chance if he had cut off the support of the white farmers.

Just for the record: I have never once stopped supporting Bob Mugabe.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 08:34:25 PM »
I am also a fan of Mugabe. UK messed up Zim. Not Mugambe. One day the UK and US will be held accountable for what they did to Zim.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 08:40:11 PM »
I am also a fan of Mugabe. UK messed up Zim. Not Mugambe. One day the UK and US will be held accountable for what they did to Zim.

That's right.   None of it is Mugabe's fault.  There will be a Day of Judgement in Heaven, and UK and US and and and .... all of them, each and every one,  will he held accountable for and for and for ... well, everything and all of it.  And the Fire & Brimstone of Justice will rain on them.  One day.  Meanwhile, right here on Earth, ... if you are a Zimbabwean, which you might not be, then ...
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Kadame5

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 08:50:51 PM »
I am also a fan of Mugabe. UK messed up Zim. Not Mugambe. One day the UK and US will be held accountable for what they did to Zim.
The way Mugabe went about taking back land (and his motives) were not good. I believe Namibia did it better with less populism and more fore thought. But I utterly agree with you re bazungu countries. They really messed those Zim guys up. Bazungu countries are no angels. This is why baafrika must learn to get our act together and rely on no one but us. Zims would not have suffered so much if we had our act together.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 09:40:52 PM »
UK & US & their vassal states of Australia & Canada for racist reason decided to cripple the Zim. There is nothing Bob Mugabe would have done when faced with such powerful states. There is nothing 98% of the countries in world would have done differently when the UK-US bring the hammer down on you.This is not the first time the UK or US have visited terror on countries...examples are countless including entire africa continent which was subdivided somewhere in Berlin.

The solution to Zim problem is for UK & US to stop their aggression against a really small poor country just because some few white farmers got kicked out so peasant can get piece of their land back.

That's right.   None of it is Mugabe's fault.  There will be a Day of Judgement in Heaven, and UK and US and and and .... all of them, each and every one,  will he held accountable for and for and for ... well, everything and all of it.  And the Fire & Brimstone of Justice will rain on them.  One day.  Meanwhile, right here on Earth, ... if you are a Zimbabwean, which you might not be, then ...

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2017, 09:44:24 PM »
Mugambe spend 30 yrs doing all that. Brits promised Mugambe money in 1975!! - same arrangement kenya got in 1963 to buy out white farmers and loan africans the money to buy those farmers- the money never came - British kept changing PMs and goal posts. And Mugambe took action in 2005 - 30yrs after he became PORZ.

You've to appreciate that Zim whites were really rogue - they declared independence and enacted minority rule - when British was giving up colonies. There was only one way to do this - FORCEFULLY. The same way Mugambe kicked them out violently in 75 was the same way they got kicked out of the land 2005. There was no other way. Mugambe never imagine the racist UK-US-Canada-Australia would crush their country - kicking them out of modern economy - tobbaco exchange - gold exchange - name it.

The way Mugabe went about taking back land (and his motives) were not good. I believe Namibia did it better with less populism and more fore thought. But I utterly agree with you re bazungu countries. They really messed those Zim guys up. Bazungu countries are no angels. This is why baafrika must learn to get our act together and rely on no one but us. Zims would not have suffered so much if we had our act together.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2017, 09:48:11 PM »
UK & US & their vassal states of Australia & Canada for racist reason decided to cripple the Zim. There is nothing Bob Mugabe would have done when faced with such powerful states. There is nothing 98% of the countries in world would have done differently when the UK-US bring the hammer down on you.This is not the first time the UK or US have visited terror on countries...examples are countless including entire africa continent which was subdivided somewhere in Berlin.

The solution to Zim problem is for UK & US to stop their aggression against a really small poor country just because some few white farmers got kicked out so peasant can get piece of their land back.

Did he know that before he decided to "tough" and set on a path to show them what's what?   Has he known that during all these years he has been "tough"?   The "98% of the countries" seem to know a few things, which is why they are not where Zimbabwe is with respect to the USA etc.    Anyways, this is the statement that amused me:

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One day the UK and US will be held accountable for what they did to Zim.

By whom, when, and how?   Let's discuss that one.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2017, 09:52:24 PM »
Mugambe never imagine the racist UK-US-Canada-Australia would crush their country - kicking them out of modern economy - tobbaco exchange - gold exchange - name it.

Well, he doesn't need to imagine anything now.  So, what's he doing about things right now?    Sucking up?  Waiting for the USA and the UK to be held accountable (by some unknown body, in some unknown place, at some unknown time, in some unknown way)?  Or perhaps he is still spouting his "tough" talk
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2017, 10:03:54 PM »
Zim people took the destiny of their country in their hands. That is enough for me. UK can make an example of Zim but  there is no way white minority(5%) can be allowed to own 90% of arable land.
Well, he doesn't need to imagine anything now.  So, what's he doing about things right now?    Sucking up?  Waiting for the USA and the UK to be held accountable (by some unknown body, in some unknown place, at some unknown time, in some unknown way)?  Or perhaps he is still spouting his "tough" talk

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2017, 10:06:45 PM »
Zim people took the destiny of their country in their hands. That is enough for me. UK can make an example of Zim but  there is no way white minority(5%) can be allowed to own 90% of arable land.

Good for them.   And right after that, they fled.   How many have sought asylum in, say, just that UK which is to be held accountable for all its misdeeds?  Looks like it wasn't enough for them.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2017, 10:15:05 PM »
What did you want them to do when UK crashed their economy. Prostrate before UK and invite back the farmers?. At least they remain unbowed and have re-elected Bob again & again...meaning all those sanctions haven't affected Mugambe..but poor folks.The last election was true "fuck you" to UK when Mugambe & ZanuPF romped in with huge victory. UK ought to be ashamed. Of course you now belong to "might is right" and will be promptly switching camps when we are talking kenya.
Good for them.   And right after that, they fled.   How many have sought asylum in, say, just that UK which is to be held accountable for all its misdeeds?  Looks like it wasn't enough for them.   

Offline Omollo

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2017, 11:00:11 PM »
As part of the Lancaster Agreements, UK (Thatcher) agreed to loan cash to Zimbabwe to buy land from the white thieves. Indeed the sticking point that held the signature to those agreements was the word "loan" which ZANU-PF refused while the rest of the stooges led by Nkomo accepted. Mugabe signed but after he got a concession that during the first 10 years, the land will be bought and sold on a willing buyer/ seller basis.

The whites thought they would all run to South Africa, believing all the doomsday predictions.

Bob won the elections and set up a pragmatic regime that religiously implemented the signed deals. The white veto in Parlaiment remained intact. The whites suddenly changed tactics and refused to leave. The farms on offer for sale dried up and for the entire 10 years, they were protected and opted not to sell.

By 1988, the protection expired and Mugabe promptly announced that they need to now offer land for purchase or he would do what the agreement allowed him to do: Seizure.

There was some limited movement in the matter with some farmers opting to surrender their unproductive pieces of portions of their land for purchase. This went on for another ten years.

In 1997 the situation changed. Blacks began to protest and there were demonstrations about land.

Mugabe took executive action to curve out some lands for resettlement under the agreement. The UK continued to pay.

However Thatcher had left office in 1990 succeeded by Major who upheld the agreement. In 1997 however the conservatives were bundled out of office - suffering a comprehensive defeat. The Blair government appointed a Claire Short as the Secretary for Overseas Development. She wrote to Mugabe as follows:
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"We are a new government from diverse backgrounds without links to former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish and as you know we were colonised not colonisers."
The rude and undiplomatic letter had serious consequences. Britain was telling Zimbabwe that she had no responsibility to pay for the purchases (even if it was a loan) and that it had no responsibility for the colonists.

Mugabe therefore went ahead and started expropriation of the land. The farmers were given promissory notes (bonds if you like) to claim payment whenever Zimbabwe could afford.

Many however had UK passports and claims to UK citizenship and immediately fled to UK.

Faced with the exodus, which increased as farms were invaded, Britain changed the narrative.

She launched a massive propaganda against Zimbabwe. For example where the AIDS figures had been extremely low for Zimbabwe, the numbers rose to 60% of the population, with the Army holding upto 90%.

Sanctions were imposed and of course Britain got the EU, US, Australia etc on board.

The idea was to overthrow Mugabe in a few months but that failed. For starters Mugabe, UK realized is highly respected all over Africa and even where Presidents took sides with UK, the citizens supported Mugabe. The key to overthrowing Mugabe rested with South Africa and mandela refused to play along and Mbeki publicly supported Bob. SA could not support UK knowing that it too had a simmering land problem.

There were cases of direct sabotage where Zim dollars were printed and dumped all over the country. Eventually the Zim dollar collapsed not least because the gov had itself started the printing and UK Mi6 and CIA just helped them along.

I think what Pundit is saying is that Mugabe cannot be held totally responsible for the dire economic situation in that country. Sanctions have worked and destroyed it.

Bob is not corrupt, so I wonder what crimes Moon Ki thinks he has committed.

... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2017, 11:16:02 PM »
At least they remain unbowed and have re-elected Bob again & again...

Yes, even at 90+.   That's supposed to be some sort of plus?   The sort of election-stuff that used to go in on badly managed East European and African countries?   What century are we in?

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the last election was true "fuck you" to UK when Mugambe & ZanuPF romped in with huge victory.

So, they have been sending "fuck you!" messages to the UK?   Well, it sure looks like the UK has in return been sending them "fuck you too!" messages.   What's the problem then?

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UK ought to be ashamed.

I doubt that shame is a major consideration in such matters.

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Of course you now belong to "might is right" and will be promptly switching camps when we are talking kenya.

You have missed the point I am trying make and it has nothing to do with right, fair, etc.    Let me put in a different way:   As long as we are unable to run our own affairs and continue to fuck up, we must also be prepared to suck up.  In such circumstances "toughness" should be limited; do it like Museveni: talk all the abusive/"tough" crap, but make sure you don't act on it.  Remember Uhuru at the height of his ICC problems?  All he had to say, especially at AU meetings?   Amazing fiery, "tough", "independent" stuff.   But not even a movement of 1mm to action.  You say Mugabe did not imagine that he would get a bad reaction to his actions.  What did he imagine?   That he would get, "That's just fine, Bob.   Keep going, and let us know how we can help"?   

As you put it, Mugabe is a Hero, he and his people remain unbowed, and they keep sending "fuck you" messages to the UK.  Excellent.  So, what's the problem?  To many, Zimbabwe seems to be a wreck, and those who have fled and those who are still suffering there don't give the impression that they are entirely happy with things.   Of course, we could all be wrong, in which case we are back to "what, then, is the problem"?

Anyways ... can we now move to this:

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One day the UK and US will be held accountable for what they did to Zim.

Tell us more.  I think we should try and speedily move to this Accounting and set Zimbabwe on a better path.

MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Omollo

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2017, 11:25:45 PM »
I think this is the funniest thread this year. Pundit and Moon Ki are killing me. :D
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2017, 11:41:41 PM »
As part of the Lancaster Agreements, UK (Thatcher) agreed to loan cash to Zimbabwe to buy land from the white thieves. ...
Bob is not corrupt, so I wonder what crimes Moon Ki thinks he has committed.

Omollo:

I know all that history; my point is largely tangential to all that.  I also know the Mugabe who came to power vs. the Mugabe who has been in power for ages.   As to crimes, I believe he should be at the ICC for his "heroic" mass slaughter of  Ndebele civilians, but that's for another day.

Let me try to put it in a few sentences:

(1)  Mugabe took certain actions that were bound to be badly received and which in fact were badly received. The current hard reality reflects all that.

(2) Any number of strong arguments can be put to the end that Mugabe was quite right, was justified, had no other options, that the UK has been unfair and ought to be "ashamed", etc.    None of them change the hard reality of (1).

(3) Zimbabwe can continue of the basis of any of the arguments referred to in (2), remain "unbowed", send "fuck you" messages, etc.   The alternative is to suck up somehow.  It might be heroic to refuse to do that, but I will leave that to them.  The hard reality will not be changed by "they were unfair!", "they ought be ashamed!", etc.   

(4) Continuing on the basis of "tough heroism" and "they will surely be held accountable some day!" doesn't seem to be a very promising path if one wishes to change the current hard reality.  I will leave it to the people of Zimbabwe to eventually make their choice. 


P. S.  I have chosen to not comment on your somewhat colourful interpretation of certain things.
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Offline Omollo

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Re: How will it end for Zimbabwe - Civil War, Recoloniasation?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2017, 12:03:20 AM »
The UK has refused to negotiate.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread