UPDATE: MP Shah Hospital Confirms Tom Cholmondeley Died of Heart Failure.

[veritas]

PUBLIC provision with caveats. Caveats like keeping it well maintained so the land become theirs (private) in 10 years or something if they maintain it well. Smart distribution, so being mindful of conservation areas.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

OK. Let the distribution be done. Once the new owners cash out in tiny plots we see if there will be any haciendas. Even the current country sides are slowly degrading into slums with overdivision and overpopulation.

You don't like the sight of the poor.  So better we keep them out of sight?

[Nefertiti]

OK. Let the distribution be done. Once the new owners cash out in tiny plots we see if there will be any haciendas. Even the current country sides are slowly degrading into slums with overdivision and overpopulation.

You don't like the sight of the poor.  So better we keep them out of sight?

I like veritas's proposal - public housing with strings attached. No subdivision.

[Omollo]

Here we go again.

Needless to say I disagree with all of you on Delamare land. Let me put it this way: If any attempt is made to expropriate private land in Kenya such a Delamere's I shall oppose it. He is one of the few settlers who actually bought his land. He made a decision to stay in Kenya and continue farming. All that when he could have move to Rhodesia or South Africa. The Delamere's have earned the Kenyanship and shall be treated as any other Kenyan before the law.

I have not forgiven the government of Kenya for depriving Waitiki of his land in Mombasa. I will never forgive that. Never!

[veritas]

he should've donated that land for public benefit, like build a museum, reserve, agriculture school etc. that's what respected land owners from that generation have done. My grandparents owned hoardes of land in Korea.. size of a large city passed down from centuries and they donated most it away to the public and to Americans (for military use). Hoarding land and doing nothing with it breeds poverty. It's not characteristic of conscionable land owners today. Respected land owners today in Kenya work with for instance the UN and grow crops for WFP, run conservation/tourist circuits. Only keep a a couple hundred acres for themselves. Hoarding over 100 000 acres and doing nothing with it like help the economy is downright criminal.

[Omollo]

Delamere land is the most utilized of all the mega estates in Kenya. U want idle land then start looking at the likes of The Late Bernard Hinga, Mwai Kibaki, Kenyatta and Moi.

he should've donated that land for public benefit, like build a museum, reserve, agriculture school etc. that's what respected land owners from that generation have done. My grandparents owned hoardes of land in Korea.. size of a large city passed down from centuries and they donated most it away to the public and to Americans (for military use). Hoarding land and doing nothing with it breeds poverty. It's not characteristic of conscionable land owners today. Respected land owners today in Kenya work with for instance the UN and grow crops for WFP, run conservation/tourist circuits. Only keep a a couple hundred acres for themselves. Hoarding over 100 000 acres and doing nothing with it like help the economy is downright criminal.

[RV Pundit]

The Naivasha one is utilized...the Gilgil all the way to Lake Nakuru is a game reserve. It time they sold the land.

Delamere land is the most utilized of all the mega estates in Kenya. U want idle land then start looking at the likes of The Late Bernard Hinga, Mwai Kibaki, Kenyatta and Moi.

[Omollo]

Chomi re-fenced that game reserve after the locals stole the poles. The so called KWS warders including the one shot were just poaching zebras and selling the meat in Nairobi. He tried to get help when it wasn't coming he armed himself and his people and managed to scare many away.

I fail to understand why a game reserve is not proper land use? Do you for example feel the same about Maasai mara? Shouldn't the land be used for farming wheat and barley?

Delamere needs support to improve that game reserve. Had he not owned the land you can sure there would be no single wild animal between Malaba and Mtito Andei. Most of the land which used to be home to elephants, lions, giraffes and so on was grabbed by one ethnic group as it expanded in to RV.

The Naivasha one is utilized...the Gilgil all the way to Lake Nakuru is a game reserve. It time they sold the land.

Delamere land is the most utilized of all the mega estates in Kenya. U want idle land then start looking at the likes of The Late Bernard Hinga, Mwai Kibaki, Kenyatta and Moi.

[RV Pundit]

Are wild animals now better than poor kenyans who don't have any other skills except to forage their land. Gov should acquire Delemare land and settle the landless there. The delamare have no right to own all that land. I don't know who they bought the land from. They certainly didn't buy from the Maasai who owned it. They acquired that land through dodgy deals and brought in many white settlers to grab more and more of Kenyan land. I have no sympathy for Delameres and they need to ship out pronto.

He can go to Zim - or RSA - where he will be kicked out eventually. Delemare should own now more than say 10 acres. That is the only consolation they should be granted. Owning more than 100,000 of acres acquired during colonial period is unjust in some many levels.

White large scale farmers claiming land due to some colonial rule should ship out pronto. I have no isssue with Asian or white owning lilttle plots in town, working in industries and companies. The very idea of a white large scale farmer who grabbed African land owning obnoxious land is very revolting.

Kenyattas,Watikis and Mois can own that land - they're kenyan heroes. Delamare is the reason we celebrate Jamhuri. He can pretend to be a kenyan ..but we certainly know they've got the British citizenship.

I totally support Mugabe restoring land back to Africans.

Chomi re-fenced that game reserve after the locals stole the poles. The so called KWS warders including the one shot were just poaching zebras and selling the meat in Nairobi. He tried to get help when it wasn't coming he armed himself and his people and managed to scare many away.

I fail to understand why a game reserve is not proper land use? Do you for example feel the same about Maasai mara? Shouldn't the land be used for farming wheat and barley?

Delamere needs support to improve that game reserve. Had he not owned the land you can sure there would be no single wild animal between Malaba and Mtito Andei. Most of the land which used to be home to elephants, lions, giraffes and so on was grabbed by one ethnic group as it expanded in to RV.

[Omollo]

Before we go any further I need some clarification from you. This will help streamline the discussion:

1. Is this new preference for "poor Kenyans" only relevant in the case of Delamere land or all idle land in Kenya
2. Does it (preference for "Poor Kenyans") extend to grabbed and stolen land?

Let me know your comments on how he "didn't buy [his land] from the Maasai":

I am assuming you know how to tell the difference between the British Government and private citizen Lord Delamere.

[RV Pundit]

There is nothing new in my stance.It relevant only to Delemare and the other colonialist who acquired land under doggy circumstances. These include those owning land in Kericho, Bomet, Nandi, Laikipia, Nakuru, Narok, Kajiado and coast. I am talking about British Colonial white settler who chose to stay around. I think Kenyatta made a mistake by giving the option to stay and own the land. They should have stayed but NOT own any land. Except those that they bought post 1963.

Delemare was given free land by the British Gov. Land that had been forcefully grabbed. Land that was illegal ab-initio.

I support the same land seizure in Kenya, South Africa and Zim. They are free to remain Kenyans but without the land. The gov should compensate them for all investment but the land should revert to the communities. In this case the whole of delemare land should be given back to Maasai or Nakuru county as a trustland for be managed for the benefit of those guys or even be subdivided and given to many maasai squattors living in Nairobi or elsewhere.

Delemare was the "prime minister" of settlers and was responsible for shipping many of them to Kenya. He deserve nothing. No respect.

Before we go any further I need some clarification from you. This will help streamline the discussion:

1. Is this new preference for "poor Kenyans" only relevant in the case of Delamere land or all idle land in Kenya
2. Does it (preference for "Poor Kenyans") extend to grabbed and stolen land?

Let me know your comments on how he "didn't buy [his land] from the Maasai":

[Omollo]

So your position is based purely on RACISM.

I guess if a Luo seized Kipsigis land around Litein all the way deep past Mogogosiek and the hills above during the same time as Delamere was buying his piece from the British government, you Pundit will have no problem with that would you? The Luo would not be a colonist and certainly not white or British like Delamere.

The British government gave out cash (initially a loan which was written off) to purchase those farms / lands from the whites. Care to explain why Kenyatta did not buy it?

BTW there was no shortage of land to be purchased. In fact Uhuru Kenyatta's father was quoted as telling the Brits that they had bought back enough land to settle citizens. In fact on paper Uhuru's father's government did meet the targets set. Where did the land go brother Pundit so that we now want to take what we did not want on the grounds that we had "enough"?

Why can't we start with the largest land owner in Kenya - The Kenyatta family before stealing the "small" farm belonging to Delamere and which he ACTUALLY uses!!!

[RV Pundit]

Nope. It not based on racism. The land grab of course was based on racism...so it easy to misconstrue my stance as racism. It isn't. NLC & our court have investigate the historical injustice that racist british colonilial gov used to illegally grab land. Delemare was the head of that land grab for most of that period.

That is where it all started. Way back in 1900 to 1960. Maybe you feel nothing because the Land in Luo or Western was largely left intact. My great grandfather were evicted to create space in Kericho tea farms by Delamare and his goons.

We need to correct that before we go to Kenyatta. Kenyatta is a kenyan heroe who fought for independence. He deserve that land more than Delemare (a Kenya villain). Delamare have done what with the land...produce a few kilos of milk....compared to Kenyatta's brookside..arguably African biggest dairy company. What are you're smoking!

Delemare to their credit helped introduce modern agriclture to kenya but they've clearly lost it--started shooting locals - and cannot use that land --except as animal park. In the meantime you should see how Kikuyu people have build the whole of Naivasha-Nakuru corridor. The gov should simply buy him off - leave him with the one in Naivasha - and distribute the other ones to kenyans.

So your position is based purely on RACISM.

I guess if a Luo seized Kipsigis land around Litein all the way deep past Mogogosiek and the hills above during the same time as Delamere was buying his piece from the British government, you Pundit will have no problem with that would you? The Luo would not be a colonist and certainly not white or British like Delamere.

The British government gave out cash (initially a loan which was written off) to purchase those farms / lands from the whites. Care to explain why Kenyatta did not buy it?

BTW there was no shortage of land to be purchased. In fact Uhuru Kenyatta's father was quoted as telling the Brits that they had bought back enough land to settle citizens. In fact on paper Uhuru's father's government did meet the targets set. Where did the land go brother Pundit so that we now want to take what we did not want on the grounds that we had "enough"?

Why can't we start with the largest land owner in Kenya - The Kenyatta family before stealing the "small" farm belonging to Delamere and which he ACTUALLY uses!!!

[Omollo]

I still see racism in the whole thing.

Let me ask this: If a woman was walking home and say a guy - Mr. Original Ravisher - started raping her.

Then another guy say - Rapinator - came along and put a stop to and offered to take the poor girl to her home.

However on the way he too starts raping the girl. Which of these is more guilty

So please offer your best Solomonic Judgment on this case that I say does not require the gods to decipher.

Did I add that Rapinnator is actually related to the girl and he is a folk hero having killed the dangerous Black Bird and composed a song about it called "Song of the Black Bird"

[RV Pundit]

Can we not discuss Mr Original without bringing in other rapists? The issue here is about DELEMARE and whether he deserve to keep 100,000 acres. We will discuss Kenyatta, Moi and all the rest in another day. Keep it this about Delemare and whether he should keep the land he illegally acquired that stretches kms. I think he shouldn't, Maasai should sue him and get back their land.

I still see racism in the whole thing.

Let me ask this: If a woman was walking home and say a guy - Mr. Original Ravisher - started raping her.

Then another guy say - Rapinator - came along and put a stop to and offered to take the poor girl to her home.

However on the way he too starts raping the girl. Which of these is more guilty

So please offer your best Solomonic Judgment on this case that I say does not require the gods to decipher.

Did I add that Rapinnator is actually related to the girl and he is a folk hero having killed the dangerous Black Bird and composed a song about it called "Song of the Black Bird"

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

OK. Let the distribution be done. Once the new owners cash out in tiny plots we see if there will be any haciendas. Even the current country sides are slowly degrading into slums with overdivision and overpopulation.

You don't like the sight of the poor.  So better we keep them out of sight?

I like veritas's proposal - public housing with strings attached. No subdivision.

Sounds good.  I still think the Cholmondeley crew should pack up and leave, just as a separate matter.

[veritas]

Game reserve is what they put on paper to mean I don't have the money to invest in it.

When the Japanese colonialized Korea they stole a lot of land. They tried to grab all of my great grandparents land but soon realized it was way too much and the Japs didn't have the money, laborers and so forth to secure that much land. They couldn't weavle into the Korean chaste system because each aristocrat was like a monarchy, and had birth right loyalists with assistants ranging in the hundreds. Unlike under resourced Maasais in Kenya, the aristocrats/land owners in Korea were able to hold onto portions of their land. So the Japs stole what they could under the auspices of "game reserve" whatever.

To ensure those Japs didn't steal more land, my great grandparents gave land to the Americans, my grandparents more. The yankees naturally built airbases, military base etc. place where my mother and I was born.

Much or the North was dominated by Korea's aristocrats and to shut off the Japs, North Korea was formed. The South were poor farmers with sparse aristocratic families mostly land owning farmers with royal birth rights. Of course along the way, plebish Koreans took advantage of this foreign intrusion and rose to prominent govt positions, foreign favor etc. and like the Kenyattas killed foreign/Japanese land grabbers and stole the land for themselves. Cholmondeley's death was no accident.

Korea was thoroughly raped by small wars throughout history, many lives lost around the world during the Korean war etc. but what divides Korea today is the notion that those Japs/foreigners will colonialize Korea again. At the crux of it all, it's about land ownership, the fear of having one's motherland taken away. It's really what binds those aristocratic lineages in the North.

Poverty, corruption, stagnation persistent in Kenya today seems very much to do with unresolved land woes. Land is precious. It strengthens or weakens sovereignty. We forget that the inhabitants of long gone centuries are buried beneath that soil and truth, liberation and progress are mysteries revealed to the rightful descendants.

[RV Pundit]

Thanks veri. This is very illuminating post on Korea. I totally agree that Land is precious. Some countries even cap the amount a foreigner can own. For me I believe we should give poor peasant as much land as possible; as those with skills, education, resources and etc move up the economic ladder; and own buildings, industries, hotels, shares, equity etc. The poor peasant whose only skills is to forage land for food should be given land. Kenya is an example that output won't suffer just because the landholding is small. So we shouldn't worry.This delemare land is a low hanging fruit which gov should take....and set up say public institutions on it...build industries name it. The land is very prime now - Nakuru-Nairobi -is a place many companies would die to set up.

I hope the delemares read the writting on the wall and ship out.

Game reserve is what they put on paper to mean I don't have the money to invest in it.

When the Japanese colonialized Korea they stole a lot of land. They tried to grab all of my great grandparents land but soon realized it was way too much and the Japs didn't have the money, laborers and so forth to secure that much land. They couldn't weavle into the Korean chaste system because each aristocrat was like a monarchy, and had birth right loyalists with assistants ranging in the hundreds. Unlike under resourced Maasais in Kenya, the aristocrats/land owners in Korea were able to hold onto portions of their land. So the Japs stole what they could under the auspices of "game reserve" whatever.

To ensure those Japs didn't steal more land, my great grandparents gave land to the Americans, my grandparents more. The yankees naturally built airbases, military base etc. place where my mother and I was born.

Much or the North was dominated by Korea's aristocrats and to shut off the Japs, North Korea was formed. The South were poor farmers with sparse aristocratic families mostly land owning farmers with royal birth rights. Of course along the way, plebish Koreans took advantage of this foreign intrusion and rose to prominent govt positions, foreign favor etc. and like the Kenyattas killed foreign/Japanese land grabbers and stole the land for themselves. Cholmondeley's death was no accident.

Korea was thoroughly raped by small wars throughout history, many lives lost around the world during the Korean war etc. but what divides Korea today is the notion that those Japs/foreigners will colonialize Korea again. At the crux of it all, it's about land ownership, the fear of having one's motherland taken away. It's really what binds those aristocratic lineages in the North.

Poverty, corruption, stagnation persistent in Kenya today seems very much to do with unresolved land woes. Land is precious. It strengthens or weakens sovereignty. We forget that the inhabitants of long gone centuries are buried beneath that soil and truth, liberation and progress are mysteries revealed to the rightful descendants.

[veritas]

Let me also add, I pay $1200 per quarterly in land tax, $5000 a year for quarter of an acre in Sydney, Australia. In 5 years that amounts to $25 000. In Delemare's case, he should be paying $10 billion dollars for 5 years in land tax, that's the kind of revenue the public till can be making on land alone. Owning land means having the revenue to keep that land. These are land reforms that should have been implements post-colonialism. That's something a Kenyatta presidency and his British counterparts will never endorse, and the very fundamental reason why Kenya is still so poor.

Before we go any further I need some clarification from you. This will help streamline the discussion:

1. Is this new preference for "poor Kenyans" only relevant in the case of Delamere land or all idle land in Kenya
2. Does it (preference for "Poor Kenyans") extend to grabbed and stolen land?

Let me know your comments on how he "didn't buy [his land] from the Maasai":

I am assuming you know how to tell the difference between the British Government and private citizen Lord Delamere.

[veritas]

Thanks RVP.

Thanks veri. This is very illuminating post on Korea. I totally agree that Land is precious. Some countries even cap the amount a foreigner can own. For me I believe we should give poor peasant as much land as possible; as those with skills, education, resources and etc move up the economic ladder; and own buildings, industries, hotels, shares, equity etc. The poor peasant whose only skills is to forage land for food should be given land. Kenya is an example that output won't suffer just because the landholding is small. So we shouldn't worry.This delemare land is a low hanging fruit which gov should take....and set up say public institutions on it...build industries name it. The land is very prime now - Nakuru-Nairobi -is a place many companies would die to set up.

I hope the delemares read the writting on the wall and ship out.