Why Africa is a mess

[Simanova]

Pundit

May be we agree. Here are some old terrorist organizations/ terrorists with something in common:
1. Jomo Kenyatta = KCA=KAU (later KANU)
3. Nelson Mandela = ANC
4. Somora Machel - FRELIMO
5. Albert Einstein called Menachim Begin a terrorist (see the facsimile)

The brotherhood is no more terrorist than the ANC or Rachel Ruto's table banking movement. Dictators hate organized groups and the new bogeyman for the CIA is of course the Islamist terrorist. No country is left behind. Have you not seen Kenya's EJK record in that respect? Uganda just jailed its own calculated to coincide with Museveni's electoral fraud. If Nkurunziya had afew bearded Somalis to try....

Let us also agree on another thing: There is no alternative to democracy.

We seem to agree. They have been forced to become terrorists. Now the question is simple. Would you rather we have the secular military dictatorship we have in Arab world or would you rather the only opposition - islam terror groups -were handed power. I say let keep the secular military dictatorship for some time. Let the USA and countries with leverage over these Arab nations demand over a long period some political reforms. It won't be easy. But it would be irresponsible to do what Obama did. Hand over power to terror groups that have been held hostage by islamic fundamentalist...just because it seem democratic to do so. In any case these terror group...like Ismalic Brotherhood or Hamas..use the same coercion tactic that military uses...to force people to vote for them.

Arab world journey into democracy is yet to start....and it will be a long journey. The option can never be islamic fundamentalist. They are the side-effects of the dictatorship. Not the solution.

[RV Pundit]

Of course. Colonialism, Apartherid and Arab world military or hereditary dictatorship are nearly similar..they are largely illegitimate gov..that need to be condomned. But before we consider the opposition..like KANU or ANC -these Islamic terror group will only be taken seriously when they eschew violence and the virulent strain of islam then they will be r. Once they do that and behave like civilized political party then Obama can talk to them; Right now they are just not an option. They need to backpedal. There is hope in Tunisia..maybe that is the model Arab world will follow.

Pundit

May be we agree. Here are some old terrorist organizations/ terrorists with something in common:
1. Jomo Kenyatta = KCA=KAU (later KANU)
3. Nelson Mandela = ANC
4. Somora Machel - FRELIMO
5. Albert Einstein called Menachim Begin a terrorist (see the facsimile)

The brotherhood is no more terrorist than the ANC or Rachel Ruto's table banking movement. Dictators hate organized groups and the new bogeyman for the CIA is of course the Islamist terrorist. No country is left behind. Have you not seen Kenya's EJK record in that respect? Uganda just jailed its own calculated to coincide with Museveni's electoral fraud. If Nkurunziya had afew bearded Somalis to try....

Let us also agree on another thing: There is no alternative to democracy.

[Simanova]

Violence in such cases is bilateral. One side - usually the government - pretends to have the legitimacy to use violence but outlaws the other side. That is why there are talks leading to peace. Here we have illegitimate governments fighting resistance to their dictatorships.

Egypt provided a working experiment where a group previously thought violent was unbanned and allowed to participate in politics. Unfortunately for them, they failed to carry out a full purge of Mubarak minions and paid for it. For example, when we take over in 2017, we have to clean the system of excess Kikuyus and kalenjins. There will be resistance but that is countered by carrot and lots of stick. If that purge is not carried out, the two groups could reverse the election outcome.

I think it is not these groups that are a problem. It is the puppet regimes in place. The Taliban are ready for talks in Afghanistan but the CIA is busy pummeling it with drone fire. It kills the very leaders who are willing to talk. They are bidding their time so Hilary or Trump can authorize a full fledged war. Hamas ceased violence and chose electoral politics. It won power and was denied it. We have Hezbollah electing to participate in elections but it is still harassed and attacked at will.

Of course. Colonialism, Apartherid and Arab world military or hereditary dictatorship are nearly similar..they are largely illegitimate gov..that need to be condomned. But before we consider the opposition..like KANU or ANC -these Islamic terror group will only be taken seriously when they eschew violence and the virulent strain of islam then they will be r. Once they do that and behave like civilized political party then Obama can talk to them; Right now they are just not an option. They need to backpedal. There is hope in Tunisia..maybe that is the model Arab world will follow.

Pundit

May be we agree. Here are some old terrorist organizations/ terrorists with something in common:
1. Jomo Kenyatta = KCA=KAU (later KANU)
3. Nelson Mandela = ANC
4. Somora Machel - FRELIMO
5. Albert Einstein called Menachim Begin a terrorist (see the facsimile)

The brotherhood is no more terrorist than the ANC or Rachel Ruto's table banking movement. Dictators hate organized groups and the new bogeyman for the CIA is of course the Islamist terrorist. No country is left behind. Have you not seen Kenya's EJK record in that respect? Uganda just jailed its own calculated to coincide with Museveni's electoral fraud. If Nkurunziya had afew bearded Somalis to try....

Let us also agree on another thing: There is no alternative to democracy.

[RV Pundit]

Those largely international terror groups for me are not the option. The option is to press the current illegitimate gov to allow more democratic space..and hopefully something more secular/less violent will emerge. As of now the better devil is Gen Isis of Egypt rather than say MB.

It doesn't help that most of these terror groups agenda is global. If there beef was restricted to their own gov, maybe they would have sympathy. But their beef seem to be with everyone who doesn't subscribe to their archaic islamic ideas.

Violence in such cases is bilateral. One side - usually the government - pretends to have the legitimacy to use violence but outlaws the other side. That is why there are talks leading to peace. Here we have illegitimate governments fighting resistance to their dictatorships.

Egypt provided a working experiment where a group previously thought violent was unbanned and allowed to participate in politics. Unfortunately for them, they failed to carry out a full purge of Mubarak minions and paid for it. For example, when we take over in 2017, we have to clean the system of excess Kikuyus and kalenjins. There will be resistance but that is countered by carrot and lots of stick. If that purge is not carried out, the two groups could reverse the election outcome.

I think it is not these groups that are a problem. It is the puppet regimes in place. The Taliban are ready for talks in Afghanistan but the CIA is busy pummeling it with drone fire. It kills the very leaders who are willing to talk. They are bidding their time so Hilary or Trump can authorize a full fledged war. Hamas ceased violence and chose electoral politics. It won power and was denied it. We have Hezbollah electing to participate in elections but it is still harassed and attacked at will.

Of course. Colonialism, Apartherid and Arab world military or hereditary dictatorship are nearly similar..they are largely illegitimate gov..that need to be condomned. But before we consider the opposition..like

Violence in such cases is bilateral. One side - usually the government - pretends to have the legitimacy to use violence but outlaws the other side. That is why there are talks leading to peace. Here we have illegitimate governments fighting resistance to their dictatorships.

Egypt provided a working experiment where a group previously thought violent was unbanned and allowed to participate in politics. Unfortunately for them, they failed to carry out a full purge of Mubarak minions and paid for it. For example, when we take over in 2017, we have to clean the system of excess Kikuyus and kalenjins. There will be resistance but that is countered by carrot and lots of stick. If that purge is not carried out, the two groups could reverse the election outcome.

I think it is not these groups that are a problem. It is the puppet regimes in place. The Taliban are ready for talks in Afghanistan but the CIA is busy pummeling it with drone fire. It kills the very leaders who are willing to talk. They are bidding their time so Hilary or Trump can authorize a full fledged war. Hamas ceased violence and chose electoral politics. It won power and was denied it. We have Hezbollah electing to participate in elections but it is still harassed and attacked at will.

[Simanova]

Of course once democracy is re-introduced in Egypt, The Muslim Brotherhood will participate and most likely win everything. Then we shall start from where we dropped off with the CIA and Saudi Arabia / Qatar funding another coup. Egypt first needs to inculcate and internalize democracy. It was amazing how fast Pro-Mubarak forces regrouped and launched a counter revolution. Countries without a firm democratic base always fall to such manoeuvres especially where institutions are non existent or weakened.

Why should secularism be right for a muslim country and not a Christian country?
 
I am not discussing global terror groups. That is a topic for another day.

Here are some European states' flags. Notice the Christian Cross:

Those largely international terror groups for me are not the option. The option is to press the current illegitimate gov to allow more democratic space..and hopefully something more secular/less violent will emerge. As of now the better devil is Gen Isis of Egypt rather than say MB.

It doesn't help that most of these terror groups agenda is global. If there beef was restricted to their own gov, maybe they would have sympathy. But their beef seem to be with everyone who doesn't subscribe to their archaic islamic ideas.

[RV Pundit]

We can argue about the semantics..but I think we are largely in agreeement..I have no problem with their islam..I have problem with their imposition of shariah laws on everyone. I think such folks have no place in modern world. Therefore let us keep the fairly modernized/westernized/civilized military and heriditary leadership in Middle east for now...but equally press for more democracy there. The terror groups are the side-effect of the dictatorship....and therefore the long term solution..is not bombing them...but allowing them to participate in democracy. Of course when they also accept to abide by rules and regulations...that doesn't involve Jihad and other stupid islamic laws.

Of course once democracy is re-introduced in Egypt, The Muslim Brotherhood will participate and most likely win everything. Then we shall start from where we dropped off with the CIA and Saudi Arabia / Qatar funding another coup. Egypt first needs to inculcate and internalize democracy. It was amazing how fast Pro-Mubarak forces regrouped and launched a counter revolution. Countries without a firm democratic base always fall to such manoeuvres especially where institutions are non existent or weakened.

Why should secularism be right for a muslim country and not a Christian country?
 
I am not discussing global terror groups. That is a topic for another day.

Here are some European states' flags. Notice the Christian Cross:

[Simanova]

I am not sure about MB imposing sharia on everybody. Saudi backed groups however have that as their agenda. ISIS is a Saudi Arabia/ Qatar creation. It is Sunni / Wahhabi in nature and it has such ideas. Other Sunni groups are Al Qaeda and Al Shahbab.

The problem of the west is to fail to make any distinction between the various Islamic groups and lampoon all such groups together attributing the worst of the extremists of them to all the groups. It was wrong to deny MB the chance to run government and embrace democracy in Egypt. They made some mistakes but then allowing the Saudis to throw away the water and the baby in it was gross. It showed the real extremists that real change in the middle east will only be permanent if it engulfs Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and all those Guld Dictatorships.

My other point is that we have to accept there are people and they are muslims. They have their religion and may want their social, legal , political and economic life to be based on that religion. We have to accept that religion wherever it exists affects the lifestyle of the adherents. The knee jerk reaction of opposing anything religious should stop. Muslims should be allowed to use sharia if they so wish. However as their religion says:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Say: "Oh, you who disbelieve!
"I do not worship that which you worship,
"Nor do you worship That Which I worship.
"Nor will I worship that which you have been worshiping,
"Neither will you worship That Which I worship.
"To you your religion and to me mine."
- Surah Al-Kafirun

We can argue about the semantics..but I think we are largely in agreeement..I have no problem with their islam..I have problem with their imposition of shariah laws on everyone. I think such folks have no place in modern world. Therefore let us keep the fairly modernized/westernized/civilized military and heriditary leadership in Middle east for now...but equally press for more democracy there. The terror groups are the side-effect of the dictatorship....and therefore the long term solution..is not bombing them...but allowing them to participate in democracy. Of course when they also accept to abide by rules and regulations...that doesn't involve Jihad and other stupid islamic laws.