Author Topic: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos  (Read 12462 times)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« on: June 12, 2016, 07:02:04 PM »
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 09:19:02 PM »
Sounds like something police,dpp and NCIC would want to get involved in.

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 11:56:53 PM »
He's building hatred, precursor to mayhem and murder.
Recent people who never got prosecuted include: Waititu, and the other Guy forgot his name.

Offline Kadudu

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2016, 12:57:57 AM »
He's building hatred, precursor to mayhem and murder.
Recent people who never got prosecuted include: Waititu, and the other Guy forgot his name.

You mean Moses Kuria? He recently got a promotion and is to lead the Jubilee team in IEBC negotiations :D

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2016, 08:55:34 AM »
The hate has been on both sides. Muthama is not any different from Moses Kuria. When CORD appointed him; it was obvious they were not interested in any serious debate. Muthama is primary school drop out.As for Real pokot assertion that hate has not been prosecuted; That is false; Kuria is facing charges, so are muthamas, waitutus and many of other politicians spreading hate

You mean Moses Kuria? He recently got a promotion and is to lead the Jubilee team in IEBC negotiations :D

Offline Empedocles

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2016, 09:08:44 AM »
And Moses Kuria (the mediator) joins the bandwagon:

Quote
Moses Kuria calls for 'Raila's assassination'

Controversial Gatundu South MP Moses Kuria allegedly wants the government to "assassinate" Cord leader Raila Odinga because he is a "threat to the nation".

Kuria made the remarks on Sunday at the thanksgiving rally of a vernacular station radio presenter held at the Safaricom indoor stadium, Kasarani.

A one and half minute video of the MP making the inciteful remarks immediately went viral on social media with Majority of Kenyans calling for his arrest.

.

Kuria is currently facing three charges of incitement to violence, hate speech and fanning ethnic hatred.

He is accused of linking the Gikomba terrorist attack, which killed 10 in 2015, to members of the Luo community.

Meanwhile, police are investigating Bahati MP Onesmus Kimani Ngunjiri utterances over the weekend that members of the "Luo community should leave Nakuru".

The MP spoke to a crowd after Cord leader Raila Odinga held a political rally in Nakuru on Saturday.

"The MP will be summoned for grilling," Inspector General of Police Joseph Boinnet said in a text message on Sunday.

The utterances believed to be hate speech were recorded on a video and audio clip that went viral on social media.

In the clip, the Mp was heard saying, "na sasa tunasema ni bahati yake sikuwa hapa...Tungeonana ( what we are saying is Raila was lucky i was not around).

http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/06/13/moses-kuria-calls-for-railas-assassination_c1368062


Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 02:04:15 PM »
Moses Kuria inciting tribal warfare?  I have never heard of that.

In the atmosphere created by Al Shabab, how these folks are able to promote outright war propaganda and walk, with all due respect to the prosecutions, is beyond me.  It's not like Kenya has the first amendment.  These are cut and dried cases.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2016, 02:16:43 PM »
Pundit
Your optimism is frightening. Yes they are being prosecuted, but at this rate a new generation is already over 5yrs old. And these generation can hear this words and they stick, breeding more hate ground.

The hate has been on both sides. Muthama is not any different from Moses Kuria. When CORD appointed him; it was obvious they were not interested in any serious debate. Muthama is primary school drop out.As for Real pokot assertion that hate has not been prosecuted; That is false; Kuria is facing charges, so are muthamas, waitutus and many of other politicians spreading hate

You mean Moses Kuria? He recently got a promotion and is to lead the Jubilee team in IEBC negotiations :D

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2016, 04:34:02 PM »
Nothing is cut and dried out in such cases. Moses Kuria enjoy his freedom of speech and right to express himself. It prosecution job to convince the Judges that remarks were inciteful. And that is where context is the king.

DPP has done an exemplary job taking Kuria to court so many times including asking court to waive the bail/bond terms..and have kuria in prison awaiting trial..but judges and magistrates do not think so.

Moses Kuria inciting tribal warfare?  I have never heard of that.

In the atmosphere created by Al Shabab, how these folks are able to promote outright war propaganda and walk, with all due respect to the prosecutions, is beyond me.  It's not like Kenya has the first amendment.  These are cut and dried cases.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2016, 04:36:52 PM »
I don't share your outrage. Pretend outrage I must add. What do you propose we do. Kill any politician or blogger who utter hateful speech. Maybe we should begin with The Donald Trump. Hate is not brewed like instant coffee. This tribal hate was here before the British and will be here for a  LOOOOOOOOOONG time. Please take a chill pill and do your part in being a decent human being..and hope the rest will do. Kids who end up hating us for tribal and political reason can only blame their parents. Not Kuria. Not Donald. Not Raila.

Politician job worldwide to me seems to be to utter hateful stuff while walking a fine line btw incitement and free speech.

Pundit
Your optimism is frightening. Yes they are being prosecuted, but at this rate a new generation is already over 5yrs old. And these generation can hear this words and they stick, breeding more hate ground.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2016, 05:05:19 PM »
Nothing is cut and dried out in such cases. Moses Kuria enjoy his freedom of speech and right to express himself. It prosecution job to convince the Judges that remarks were inciteful. And that is where context is the king.

DPP has done an exemplary job taking Kuria to court so many times including asking court to waive the bail/bond terms..and have kuria in prison awaiting trial..but judges and magistrates do not think so.

Moses Kuria inciting tribal warfare?  I have never heard of that.

In the atmosphere created by Al Shabab, how these folks are able to promote outright war propaganda and walk, with all due respect to the prosecutions, is beyond me.  It's not like Kenya has the first amendment.  These are cut and dried cases.
Moses Kuria's outbursts are all over the net.  The fact that he still walks, tells me that the judicial process is a sham.  A gate-keeping exercise. 
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2016, 05:19:18 PM »
I don't share your outrage. Pretend outrage I must add. What do you propose we do. Kill any politician or blogger who utter hateful speech. Maybe we should begin with The Donald Trump. Hate is not brewed like instant coffee. This tribal hate was here before the British and will be here for a  LOOOOOOOOOONG time. Please take a chill pill and do your part in being a decent human being..and hope the rest will do. Kids who end up hating us for tribal and political reason can only blame their parents. Not Kuria. Not Donald. Not Raila.

Politician job worldwide to me seems to be to utter hateful stuff while walking a fine line btw incitement and free speech.

Pundit
Your optimism is frightening. Yes they are being prosecuted, but at this rate a new generation is already over 5yrs old. And these generation can hear this words and they stick, breeding more hate ground.
Looking south to TZ.  How far would a Moses Kuria analogue go in TZ?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 06:01:37 PM »
Well kenya I tend to think is more democratic and heterogeneous than TZ. What is well known is that democracy in heterogeneous society will breed division/ethnicity/tribalism. That is true here, true in the US and true everywhere. In a country where people are free...they are free to even hate and spread hate. That is the price of democracy and freedom.

If you want KANU era of 80s (which is where TZ is still in) or Ethiopia or China...go ahead and say so.

In a democracy it better for one moses kuria to spread hate than for society to enact laws that essentially infringe on freedoms and rights. Freedom of speech and right of expression as per our constitution are interperated widely -not narrowly. If there is any doubt of what Kuria meant --he gets away.

I don't see the DPP winning any hate speech case soon. Mumbi already declared the "misuse of communication device" offence that DPP was using against bloggers to be unconstitutional.

Looking south to TZ.  How far would a Moses Kuria analogue go in TZ?

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2016, 06:16:27 PM »
In a democracy it better for one moses kuria to spread hate than for society to enact laws that essentially infringe on freedoms and rights. Freedom of speech and right of expression as per our constitution are interperated widely -not narrowly. If there is any doubt of what Kuria meant --he gets away.

I don't see the DPP winning any hate speech case soon. Mumbi already declared the "misuse of communication device" offence that DPP was using against bloggers to be unconstitutional.

Looking south to TZ.  How far would a Moses Kuria analogue go in TZ?

Below is the Bill of Rights Chapter 4.  How more explicit can the constitution go?  Comparing it to the US is misleading.  Because, other than the vague clause, fighting words, there is really no limit to free speech in the US.  The doubts you mention about Kuria's outbursts are contrived.  The constitution leaves no room for them.  You have to make a special, even unreasonable, effort to actually doubt that he is committing a crime.

Quote
(1) Every person has the right to freedom of expression, which includes--

(a) freedom to seek, receive or impart information or ideas;
(b) freedom of artistic creativity; and
(c) academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.

(2) The right to freedom of expression does not extend to--



(3) In the exercise of the right to freedom of expression, every person shall respect the rights and reputation of others.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 06:30:02 PM »

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 06:49:47 PM »
Well kenya I tend to think is more democratic and heterogeneous than TZ. What is well known is that democracy in heterogeneous society will breed division/ethnicity/tribalism. That is true here, true in the US and true everywhere. In a country where people are free...they are free to even hate and spread hate. That is the price of democracy and freedom.

If you want KANU era of 80s (which is where TZ is still in) or Ethiopia or China...go ahead and say so.

Looking south to TZ.  How far would a Moses Kuria analogue go in TZ?
There is always a sense that Kenya is more democratic thanks to every election having a new party in power since KANU's demise.  From NARC, PNU and Jubilee.  All this time the most that happened in TZ is that TANU changed its name to CCM.  Based on that people tend to think Kenya is more democratic.

I find that simplistic.  A political party in Kenya is entirely meaningless except as a vehicle for purposes of elections of a Presidential candidate.  Their operations fold up once the elections are over, especially when they lose, ODM being a rare exception.  But it is a joke to suggest that NARC to PNU was a change in leadership.

They are KANU in everything but name.  Kibaki was a KANU insider until the last minute when pluralism was permitted.  Uhuru was Moi's anointed successor.  Ruto was a YK92 operator.  Even Raila was part of KANU in its last days. 

In TZ, while on the surface, it appears that nothing has changed since independence, under the surface, they have actually had a more diversified leadership than Kenya.  They have experienced more fundamental changes than Kenya, since independence. 

From Ujamaa to capitalism.  From Nyerere to Mwinyi.  Mwinyi to Mkapa.  Mkapa to Kikwete.  Kikwete to Magufuli.  All from different tribes, each bringing a completely new approach compared to the predecessor.  Kenya, with one interruption, has been under the grip of one tribe and looks set to be that way for a while.

Does that mean one is more democratic than the other?  I don't think so.  You can still oppose CCM in TZ.  Just because you can't get away with inciting Sukumas against Chaggas, would that make the place undemocratic?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 06:58:39 PM »
There are many indicators that can tell you whether a country is more democratic or not. There is no doubt that kenya is more democratic than TZ. You want to look at parties and how competitive those parties are, you want to look at media & press, you want to look at freedom of speech (yeah) and Kuria & others going overboard in vindication that people are more democratic, if you cannot abuse the president then that is no democracy, you want to look judiciary and how free & independent they are, you want to look at police & military not engaging in politics, civil services, civil socieites,

My power is running out....but there are so many indicators that can tell you kenya is by far the most advanced democracy in Eastern Africa. I can only say it come second to Zambia.

There is always a sense that Kenya is more democratic thanks to every election having a new party in power since KANU's demise.  From NARC, PNU and Jubilee.  All this time the most that happened in TZ is that TANU changed its name to CCM.  Based on that people tend to think Kenya is more democratic.

I find that simplistic.  A political party in Kenya is entirely meaningless except as a vehicle for purposes of elections of a Presidential candidate.  Their operations fold up once the elections are over, especially when they lose, ODM being a rare exception.  But it is a joke to suggest that NARC to PNU was a change in leadership.

They are KANU in everything but name.  Kibaki was a KANU insider until the last minute when pluralism was permitted.  Uhuru was Moi's anointed successor.  Ruto was a YK92 operator.  Even Raila was part of KANU in its last days. 

In TZ, while on the surface, it appears that nothing has changed since independence, under the surface, they have actually had a more diversified leadership than Kenya.  They have experienced more fundamental changes than Kenya, since independence. 

From Ujamaa to capitalism.  From Nyerere to Mwinyi.  Mwinyi to Mkapa.  Mkapa to Kikwete.  Kikwete to Magufuli.  All from different tribes, each bringing a completely new approach compared to the predecessor.  Kenya, with one interruption, has been under the grip of one tribe and looks set to be that way for a while.

Does that mean one is more democratic than the other?  I don't think so.  You can still oppose CCM in TZ.  Just because you can't get away with inciting Sukumas against Chaggas, would that make the place undemocratic?

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2016, 08:37:28 PM »
Well kenya I tend to think is more democratic and heterogeneous than TZ. What is well known is that democracy in heterogeneous society will breed division/ethnicity/tribalism. That is true here, true in the US and true everywhere. In a country where people are free...they are free to even hate and spread hate. That is the price of democracy and freedom.

If you want KANU era of 80s (which is where TZ is still in) or Ethiopia or China...go ahead and say so.

In a democracy it better for one moses kuria to spread hate than for society to enact llaws that essentially infringe on freedoms and rights. Freedom of speech and right of expression as per our constitution are interperated widely -not narrowly. If there is any doubt of what Kuria meant --he gets away.

Sorry to "nit-pick", but you might want to broaden your horizons and look around, especially at relevant law and its enforcement in European countries and similar places.  And it is also important to recognize that some of what passes for ("unlimited") freedom of speech in the USA is considered unacceptable in many places.  For example, just north of the US border, it it has long been established, judicially, that freedom of expression does not include the freedom to publicly promote hatred against an "identifiable" group and that to do so is a serious crime:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Keegstra

(Since then, there have been more changes in Canada that make it even easier to legally deal with Kuria types.)

The Canadian Supreme Court, like many European courts, did not consider that dealing with people who publicly promote hatred would  terribly  "infringe on freedoms and rights".  The law does not take the view that it is somehow "better to ... promote hate than ..."; the view, simply, is that publicly promoting hatred is not helpful and "freedom of expression" can and may be put aside in such cases.  That seems quite sensible.   

(Of course, Canadians are free to hate and to promote hatred in the privacy and comfort of their living-rooms and bed-rooms etc.  But that's about it; there is no "freedom and democracy" beyond that.)

Quite a few European countries actually go well beyond that.   No need to go to China or Ethiopia or wherever ...   

Kenyans are late entrants in the Freedom-&-Democracy Games.    They  can learn from observing things elsewhere and reflecting properly, instead of mindlessly swallowing the idea that now anything goes.   Kenyans need to get away from the influence of American films and TV shows on some of these matters and determine what is really needed in a country that has, for a long time, been riven by tribal hatreds.   

The worst "aspects" of Kenyans tend to show up in "tribal" matters, even if there is no violence.   And in the latter, it is not necessary to bring up certain recent reminders.   Do people really need an explanation of where we can get to by throwing more flames on the fires of tribal hatred, especially by a person who seemingly has the full support of the president, is backed by all sorts of violent low-lifes, ....?   What sort of Kenya do we really want, and how do we get there?  We need to reflect on that and move beyond half-arsed and unhelpful notions of "freedom" and "democracy".
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2016, 09:38:50 PM »
There are many indicators that can tell you whether a country is more democratic or not. There is no doubt that kenya is more democratic than TZ. You want to look at parties and how competitive those parties are, you want to look at media & press, you want to look at freedom of speech (yeah) and Kuria & others going overboard in vindication that people are more democratic, if you cannot abuse the president then that is no democracy, you want to look judiciary and how free & independent they are, you want to look at police & military not engaging in politics, civil services, civil socieites,

My power is running out....but there are so many indicators that can tell you kenya is by far the most advanced democracy in Eastern Africa. I can only say it come second to Zambia.

There is always a sense that Kenya is more democratic thanks to every election having a new party in power since KANU's demise.  From NARC, PNU and Jubilee.  All this time the most that happened in TZ is that TANU changed its name to CCM.  Based on that people tend to think Kenya is more democratic.

I find that simplistic.  A political party in Kenya is entirely meaningless except as a vehicle for purposes of elections of a Presidential candidate.  Their operations fold up once the elections are over, especially when they lose, ODM being a rare exception.  But it is a joke to suggest that NARC to PNU was a change in leadership.

They are KANU in everything but name.  Kibaki was a KANU insider until the last minute when pluralism was permitted.  Uhuru was Moi's anointed successor.  Ruto was a YK92 operator.  Even Raila was part of KANU in its last days. 

In TZ, while on the surface, it appears that nothing has changed since independence, under the surface, they have actually had a more diversified leadership than Kenya.  They have experienced more fundamental changes than Kenya, since independence. 

From Ujamaa to capitalism.  From Nyerere to Mwinyi.  Mwinyi to Mkapa.  Mkapa to Kikwete.  Kikwete to Magufuli.  All from different tribes, each bringing a completely new approach compared to the predecessor.  Kenya, with one interruption, has been under the grip of one tribe and looks set to be that way for a while.

Does that mean one is more democratic than the other?  I don't think so.  You can still oppose CCM in TZ.  Just because you can't get away with inciting Sukumas against Chaggas, would that make the place undemocratic?
I find the democracy explanation too convoluted and long winding.  An attempt to avoid owning up to the fact that there is a serious tribalism problem in Kenya, and the government has done nothing but feed the monster.  It has nothing to do with freedom or democracy.

You mention Zambia as being more democratic than Kenya.  How many Zambian Moses Kuria analogues have you ever heard of?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 10:08:25 PM »
Very interesting. Frankly, it seems to me that there are folks who are somewhat uninformed about the U.S. For instance, the right to hate speech in the U.S. is not absolute, particularly if that speech is deemed to incite violence or has the potential to incite violence. Here's a generic example.

You are at a mall somewhere in CA, say, Long Beach. You, the libertarian, approach a Vietnamese American young lady and wanting to test the boundaries of free speech you spout that "innocent" well-worn slur: "you G**k!"Now the lady notices a LB police officer on patrol in the mall and reports what you just said to her. The officer will then be compelled to ask the young lady the pertinent question: Did you feel threatened?

Good luck in court.