35 million and he is still on the job!!!

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I appreciate technology from the perspective of improving efficiency.  It may also eliminate some eating avenues.  In the case of the traffic cops, the man on the street may see drastically reduced opportunities to eat.  The people with authority and access to manipulate the data may see increased returns.

Ultimately the issue is not the mechanics, but rather the abuse of public trust. 

[MOON Ki]

I appreciate technology from the perspective of improving efficiency.  It may also eliminate some eating avenues.  In the case of the traffic cops, the man on the street may see drastically reduced opportunities to eat.  The people with authority and access to manipulate the data may see increased returns.

Ultimately the issue is not the mechanics, but rather the abuse of public trust. 

Yes.   In the NYS heist, much was achieved by simply adding 0s in a "tamper-proof" electronic system.   In the old days, that scale of theft would have required a lot of work.

Technology will eliminate eating only when those involved are sufficiently ignorant or lazy.   The more creative and hard-working will forge ahead, past the barriers of technology.

[RV Pundit]

So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.

Technology is great.  That said, the hardware is only as good as the software.  You can throw technology at the problem.  But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location. 

Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS.  Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.

The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state.  An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years.  Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief.  Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that. 

I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible.  If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group.  Everything is local.  The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.

Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity.  The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.

You want to make corruption costly for the perp.  The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish.  For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights.  Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities.  A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.

Technology is great.  Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.

[Georgesoros]

So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.

Technology is great.  That said, the hardware is only as good as the software.  You can throw technology at the problem.  But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location. 

Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS.  Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.

The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state.  An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years.  Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief.  Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that. 

I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible.  If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group.  Everything is local.  The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.

Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity.  The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.

You want to make corruption costly for the perp.  The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish.  For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights.  Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities.  A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.

Technology is great.  Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.

Termie
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.

[RV Pundit]

So in the meantime until we elect these non-corrupt leaders; I don't know from where; considering the whole election system is equally rigged and corrupted; we do nothing. This I tell you is a very crazy idea.

We need to do what we can do.  And nothing stop us from slowly replacing human element with technology WHEREVER POSSIBLE. There are certain aspect of traffic management that can be solved purely by technology...all the cops hanging around round about...can go if traffic lights worked...all those hidding in the bushes with speed guns...can be replaced with speed cameras..Alternatively we can outsource these to companies that we can hold accountable...

Technology esp ICT offer exciting ideas that can help us leapfrog.

Technology is great.  That said, the hardware is only as good as the software.  You can throw technology at the problem.  But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location. 

Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS.  Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.

The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state.  An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years.  Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief.  Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that. 

I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible.  If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group.  Everything is local.  The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.

Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity.  The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.

You want to make corruption costly for the perp.  The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish.  For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights.  Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities.  A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.

Technology is great.  Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

So in the meantime until we elect these non-corrupt leaders; I don't know from where; considering the whole election system is equally rigged and corrupted; we do nothing. This I tell you is a very crazy idea.

We need to do what we can do.  And nothing stop us from slowly replacing human element with technology WHEREVER POSSIBLE. There are certain aspect of traffic management that can be solved purely by technology...all the cops hanging around round about...can go if traffic lights worked...all those hidding in the bushes with speed guns...can be replaced with speed cameras..Alternatively we can outsource these to companies that we can hold accountable...

Technology esp ICT offer exciting ideas that can help us leapfrog.

Technology is great.  That said, the hardware is only as good as the software.  You can throw technology at the problem.  But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location. 

Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS.  Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.

The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state.  An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years.  Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief.  Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that. 

I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible.  If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group.  Everything is local.  The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.

Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity.  The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.

You want to make corruption costly for the perp.  The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish.  For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights.  Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities.  A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.

Technology is great.  Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.

I am all for technology.  100%.  It facilitates efficiency.  Detection.  Even eliminates certain elements from the corruption life cycle.

What am I against?  The notion that Kenyans are helpless to do something about the crooks.  Because they can do that every five years.  Whether they will do it is a different discussion.  The opportunities to do it present themselves every five years.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.

Technology is great.  That said, the hardware is only as good as the software.  You can throw technology at the problem.  But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location. 

Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS.  Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.

The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state.  An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years.  Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief.  Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that. 

I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible.  If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group.  Everything is local.  The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.

Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity.  The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.

You want to make corruption costly for the perp.  The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish.  For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights.  Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities.  A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.

Technology is great.  Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.

Termie
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.

Someone like Kyalo should be easy to handle.  But I won't be surprised if he is not.  And it won't be for lack of technology.

[MOON Ki]

So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.

No, it's not a matter of doing nothing until whatever.   A much better approach than imagining that technology is the solution would be to:

(a) Put pressure on those on top to act rather than just talk and to lead by example.   
(b) Work on the masses to elect on bases other than which they do now.

Yes, the IFMIS helped uncover the NYS heist.  But The IFMIS has not stopped anyone from stealing, and to think that technology will deal with what is essentially a psychological perversion misses the point.  "Uncovering" or knowing what has been stolen, and by whom, is not and has never been the problem: even without the fancy technology, we know what was taken in all sorts of heists (Anglo Leasing, Goldenburg, etc); we know that coppers are eating 24/7, and we even have them actually saying so in public (hence this thread)!; etc.  (In all instances of "everyday corruption", Kenyans can tell you exactly who is being bribed, for what, in what amounts, etc.)  The real problems are that:

(a) nothing ever happens after any "uncovering",
(b) generally the "fight against corruption" is never more than lip service, and
(c) those at the top "lead by example" in the corrupt and thieving activities.

It is also not a matter of choosing between doing something (i.e. the technological thing) or doing nothing.     It is that as long as the real problem is not addressed, nothing will change.   So on the current path it will 50-100 years or until Kenyans have suffered enough to really want and demand change.

[MOON Ki]

If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.

The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish.    So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share?  You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!   

But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish.   In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish.  Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.

Things actually go the other way:

* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.

* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line.  Such is what leadership is about.

[MOON Ki]

The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.

Example:

The Goldenberg scandal ... is estimated to have cost Kenya the equivalent of more than 10% of the country's annual Gross Domestic Product,[1] and it is possible that no or minimal amounts of gold were actually exported. The scandal appears to have involved political corruption at the highest levels of the government of Daniel Arap Moi. Officials in the former government of Mwai Kibaki have also been implicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldenberg_scandal#Cost

[hk]

Once you starve the small fish they wont have money to pass along to the big fish. In doing so posting of jobs to most corruptible areas like the weigh bridge and the port would be merit based instead of who among the small fish is the biggest money generator.
On anglo leasing, goldenberg and nys. It starts with budgeting and allocation of funds. The easiest thing to do in my opinion is to ring fence big projects. Such that bonds being issued are specifically allocated to a specific project. This can be done using a simple legislation. When funds are put into one consolidated funds its very easy for tenderprenuers  and corrupt officials to inflate prices . NYS happened because it was allocated more funds than it could handle so it started in budgeting.  Or better yet we get a legislation that would determine what percentage of funds collected and debt goes to recurring expenditure and what percentage goes into development. Finally we just need to limit the scope of government and what it can do. The notion that somehow NYS or kazi kwa vijana are tools to create youth employment is misplaced.

[RV Pundit]

You and terminator  false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality. There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral. Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene. You've see mardoff rip off 50B dollars from poor souls.What works here and elsewhere. Is putting more controls to first stop corruption from happening and then punishing when it happens. Kenya has come along way in first part and has not done well in the  punishing part.

We need to do more in putting more CONTROLS to ensure corruption becomes harder in the first instance. In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.

Corruption thrives in places where systems and controls are lacking. Where one or two person can sign things off. Where banks do not questions where the money is coming from.  We can go on and on....but we need more and more controls....at all levels...so we can stop this from happening. Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.

I not bigger on trying to close the ban when the horse has bolted....we could do more in arresting and recovery...but ultimately we have to make our systems corruption proof.

If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.

The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish.    So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share?  You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!   

But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish.   In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish.  Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.

Things actually go the other way:

* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.

* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line.  Such is what leadership is about.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

You and terminator  false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality. There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral. Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene. You've see mardoff rip off 50B dollars from poor souls.What works here and elsewhere. Is putting more controls to first stop corruption from happening and then punishing when it happens. Kenya has come along way in first part and has not done well in the  punishing part.

We need to do more in putting more CONTROLS to ensure corruption becomes harder in the first instance. In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.

Corruption thrives in places where systems and controls are lacking. Where one or two person can sign things off. Where banks do not questions where the money is coming from.  We can go on and on....but we need more and more controls....at all levels...so we can stop this from happening. Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.

I not bigger on trying to close the ban when the horse has bolted....we could do more in arresting and recovery...but ultimately we have to make our systems corruption proof.

If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.

The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish.    So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share?  You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!   

But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish.   In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish.  Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.

Things actually go the other way:

* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.

* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line.  Such is what leadership is about.

My premise is that corruption will be tamed when it does not pay.  When it is costly.  When it is just not worth it.  Could ethics and leadership play a role?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  The key is whether it is worth it for the perpetrator.  Do I think we should eliminate opportunities for it?  Absolutely.

Corruption will thrive where it pays, even if "systems and controls are in place".  It is indeed everywhere.  Enron, Madoff etc.

[RV Pundit]

We have jailed for life or condemned how many petty robbers who engage in some violence? Thousands? Does that stop robbery with violence in kenya? No. Cops are shooting thugs on sight. Does that stop robbery with violence. Nope.

So like I previously said in a poor country like ours; were people have nothing to lose; you cannot open the door and say come & steal--and if we catch you--we will kill you! it won't work; it doesn't work.

We need to keep our doors closed, we need to have electric fences, 15 feet high walls, dogs, cctv cameras, watchmen and vigilantes. We have to stop the robbers on their track.

The same is needed in all our systems and processes...

As we over time move from low income to middle income to developed world....the risk-reward matrix will change--people will have more opportunities to live a dignified ethical and moral life.

We can continue to bemoan the lack of leadership/ethics/morals in ourselves..or we can tighten up the door bolts.
 

My premise is that corruption will be tamed when it does not pay.  When it is costly.  When it is just not worth it.  Could ethics and leadership play a role?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  The key is whether it is worth it for the perpetrator.  Do I think we should eliminate opportunities for it?  Absolutely.

Corruption will thrive where it pays, even if "systems and controls are in place".  It is indeed everywhere.  Enron, Madoff etc.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

We have jailed for life or condemned how many petty robbers who engage in some violence? Thousands? Does that stop robbery with violence in kenya? No. Cops are shouting thugs on sight. Does that stop robbery with violence. Nope.

So like I previously said in a poor country like ours; were people have nothing to lose; you cannot open the door and say come & steal--and if we catch you--we will kill you! it won't work; it doesn't work.

We need to keep our doors closed, we need to have electric fences, 15 feet high walls, dogs, cctv cameras, watchmen and vigilantes. We have to stop the robbers on their track.

The same is needed in all our systems and processes...

As we over time move from low income to middle income to developed world....the risk-reward matrix will change--people will have more opportunities to live a dignified ethical and moral life


We can continue to bemoan the lack of leadership/ethics/morals in ourselves..or we can tighten up the door bolts.

My premise is that corruption will be tamed when it does not pay.  When it is costly.  When it is just not worth it.  Could ethics and leadership play a role?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  The key is whether it is worth it for the perpetrator.  Do I think we should eliminate opportunities for it?  Absolutely.

Corruption will thrive where it pays, even if "systems and controls are in place".  It is indeed everywhere.  Enron, Madoff etc.

There is petty crime.  And there is corruption(abuse of public trust).  While petty crime in Kenya does not pay the alternatives make it worth the risk.  By the time you are willing to risk being lynched for a wallet, you are virtually on your last legs.  But that is a strawman.

As long as cost/benefit analysis favors corruption, you will have it kwa wingi.  I agree that eliminating the opportunities for it is something that should be done; I really do.  But the reason corruption thrives has more to do with reward than opportunity.

I can be stopped by a cop here in the US for speeding.  I pull out a hundred dollar bill and try to shake the cops hand.  He can easily pick the money, good for mid-week groceries or a weekend outing, and wave me on - yes it happens in the US.  Instead I am more than likely to find myself slapped with felony charges.  If Sergeant Kyalo, a millionaire no less, stops me for the same reason, I could drop 50 shillings and he would happily wave me on.  What is your explanation for the different behaviours?

[MOON Ki]

You and terminator  false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality.

Earlier I gave you the examples of Singapore and China, where the leadership has had clear impact.    And in everyday life, in Kenya and elsewhere, many people are not corrupt because of their morals and ethics, although that might not be the sole reason.   In fact, it makes no sense to suggest that morals and ethics do not affect corruption: if people  engage in the vice, then, by "definition", there is a problem with their morals; conversely, a person of high moral and ethical standards will not engage in the vice.

There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral.

Sadly, this seems to be the standard Kenyan attitude, which explains the tolerance for corruption and the admiration of the corrupt.   

Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene.

That might be so.   But it is illogical to conclude that such "nature" means they are necessarily  corrupt and immoral.   What morals and ethics mean is that people do not act on such base desires; that is what systems of morals and ethics---lessons from parents, religious teachings, professional codes of ethics, ...---aim to inculcate, and, for the most part they tend to be successful.

In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.

OK.   We'll wait for the controls.   Wake me up when they are in place.

Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.

One more time: the problem is not knowing who is corrupt.   

A question: Do you routinely engage in corrupt activities and theft?

- If so, what would it take to stop you?
- If not, why not?

[MOON Ki]

We have jailed for life or condemned how many petty robbers who engage in some violence? Thousands? Does that stop robbery with violence in kenya? No. Cops are shooting thugs on sight. Does that stop robbery with violence. Nope.

The practice of criminal law has long shown that severe punishment works as a deterrence; so we need not debate that one.    What you should not is that deterring many people from committing crimes they would otherwise commit is not the same as saying that crimes have been or will be eliminated.    In your robbery example, what you should think of is the situation we would have if robbery with violence had no negative consequences.

[Georgesoros]

Pundit
If I understand you correctly, Are you saying that morality does not deter us from making right decisions?
If that is correct, then how come people like the Pope can chose to be so humble while the likes of Trump use any means necessary to reap money off the poor. Who has morals? The Pope or Trump?
I agree with you though that man is inherently corrupt. What Kenya lacks is law enforcement. A regular guy is harassed left and right while the moneyed are left to roam defrauding every person, institution can then get hold of.

You and terminator  false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality. There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral. Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene. You've see mardoff rip off 50B dollars from poor souls.What works here and elsewhere. Is putting more controls to first stop corruption from happening and then punishing when it happens. Kenya has come along way in first part and has not done well in the  punishing part.

We need to do more in putting more CONTROLS to ensure corruption becomes harder in the first instance. In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.

Corruption thrives in places where systems and controls are lacking. Where one or two person can sign things off. Where banks do not questions where the money is coming from.  We can go on and on....but we need more and more controls....at all levels...so we can stop this from happening. Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.

I not bigger on trying to close the ban when the horse has bolted....we could do more in arresting and recovery...but ultimately we have to make our systems corruption proof.

If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.

The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish.    So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share?  You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!   

But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish.   In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish.  Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.

Things actually go the other way:

* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.

* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line.  Such is what leadership is about.

[MOON Ki]

Once you starve the small fish they wont have money to pass along to the big fish.

That is indeed the case.   But how does not having money passed to them make the big fish any less corrupt.

In doing so posting of jobs to most corruptible areas like the weigh bridge and the port would be merit based instead of who among the small fish is the biggest money generator.

Read carefully what you just wrote.    Who does the job postings?   It is the big fish.   So as long as they remain corrupt, the smaller fish will also remain so: get rid of one lot of small fish, and the bosses will just send in another lot.    In other words, you have in fact given an argument for why dealing with the vice should be big-to-small and not small-to-big.

On anglo leasing, goldenberg and nys. It starts with budgeting and allocation of funds. The easiest thing to do in my opinion is to ring fence big projects. Such that bonds being issued are specifically allocated to a specific project.

How would ring fencing stop, say, the padding of invoices of the specific projects?   How would it stop direct theft of the money?

NYS happened because it was allocated more funds than it could handle so it started in budgeting.

That is a peculiar argument.   If you look at Treasury's figure, you will note that a great deal of money allocated to various ministries and the like goes unspent.    According to your argument then, we should have large-scale theft all over the place.   Do we? 

Here's another possibility: NYS happened because some corrupt people though they could steal the money and get away with it undetected.

Mystery of unspent Equalisation Fund billions four years after devolution ... With just a year left before new governors are elected, Budget experts at Parliament have now raised the red flag over delays in enabling counties to spend the billions.

http://www.sde.co.ke/m/article/2000202742/mystery-of-unspent-equalisation-fund-billions-four-years-after-devolution

The National Treasury has raised the red flag over idle cash held by counties in their respective County Revenue Fund (CRF) accounts at the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK).

According to the Budget Policy Statement 2016, at the beginning of 2014/15 financial year, counties had opening balances (money unspent from the previous financial year) of Sh39.2 billion, a thirteen-fold increase from the 2013/14 financial year.

http://www.mediamaxnetwork.co.ke/people-daily/197228/treasury-warns-counties-on-unspent-funds/

http://mobile.nation.co.ke/business/Unspent-government-cash-hurting-growth/-/1950106/2091706/-/format/xhtml/-/mpsouxz/-/index.html