Could One Name a Dozen Non-Biased GEMA

[RV Pundit]

Now it about Uhuru & some intelligensia. That is some progress from Omollo. You need to dial back so people can have decent debate here. You cannot come here accusing 10M  minus one Kiaia and expect to engage in a serious debate about tribalism..when you're making worse.

If you read Moonki take..it day and night from yours. That round 2 is invetiable. It something thing else if he was to advocate for round 2.You need to tread the fine line here....

[MOON Ki]

It should be discussed.  But there are ways of doing it that worsens the circling of the wagons so to speak.  It's not fair to say that there are less than 12 GEMA that see a lot that is wrong, when I can personally count more than 20; maybe they are not famous, but there are full blooded Kikuyus that don't care for kamwana.

Perhaps one could look at Omollo's words as just hyperbole, borne of frustration or something.     And perhaps not.   But it seems to me that there is certainly much antipathy towards GEMA, and it is not clear that all of it has no basis.     (How did we get to "41 vs. 1"?)

Maybe what might help would be to have people like your 20 buddies (and the like) doing more, by way of speaking up to counter the "bad elements" (Ngunyi, Kuria, et al), who seem to relish going out of their way to remind others (in less-than-friendly tones) of who is "on top, has been on top, and will always be on top".)  The continuing association with the large-scale theft of public funds, grabbing of land, etc.,  also probably doesn't help ...  although, no doubt, "everyone is eating".

[Nefertiti]

Omollo says there is a political correctness (PC) that has choked debate and ferments tension. Imposed by post-PEV policy. He then insists any prodding of his thoughts or assertions other than outright concurrence is part of that same PC censorship Alas, how do we engage him?

Disagreeing that you are off the handle, of whatever motivation, is part of the debate. If one begrudges the Somali their entrepreneurial gene, then one could quickly bundy them collectively as "terrorists" or "Al Shaabab sympathizers". The trigger being the piling bodycount from the atrocities. It takes a certain restraint to maintain civility in constructive debate. Otherwise you have Kuria or Ngunyi kind of "honesty".

Most of these supremacist GEMA folks can issue you a similar checklist of "Luo traits" and ask for a dozen salvagable iota. Oh wait, it landed Kuria in hot soup...

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

It should be discussed.  But there are ways of doing it that worsens the circling of the wagons so to speak.  It's not fair to say that there are less than 12 GEMA that see a lot that is wrong, when I can personally count more than 20; maybe they are not famous, but there are full blooded Kikuyus that don't care for kamwana.

Perhaps one could look at Omollo's words as just hyperbole, borne of frustration or something.     And perhaps not.   But it seems to me that there is certainly much antipathy towards GEMA, and it is not clear that all of it has no basis.     (How did we get to "41 vs. 1"?)

Maybe what might help would be to have people like your 20 buddies (and the like) doing more, by way of speaking up to counter the "bad elements" (Ngunyi, Kuria, et al), who seem to relish going out of their way to remind others (in less-than-friendly tones) of who is "on top, has been on top, and will always be on top".)  The continuing association with the large-scale theft of public funds, grabbing of land, etc.,  also probably doesn't help ...  although, no doubt, "everyone is eating".

Nobody on nipate.org has denied tribalism, and specifically GEMA tribalism, as an issue in Kenya whenever it has been raised.  There simply has been nothing to debate. 

I only pointed out why I think the purpose is different in Kenya.  Not so much to favor GEMA as to create the animosity such as we see in Omollo's points.

In that context, Omollo's approach and subsequent reaction are just odd.  One has to think he is responding to some trolls on .com but using this forum.  But the trolls are there, not here.

[Omollo]

Robina is simply mis-characterizing my position and that is part of the debate.

However if I may adopt her thinking, I would say it is self-censorship resulting from intimidation. For example her labeling me "anti-Kikuyu" earlier in the debate would inevitably have led to an avalanche of similar attacks and labels and resulted in me cowing to the intimidation and folding my goat-skin and vanishing in the dark. I chose to stand my ground. Now there aren't many who stand their ground.

There is no such thing as" Post-PEV policy" and I pray I have not used the term unconsciously somewhere in this debate. I'll clarify: PEV is being used as a big stick to wave over our heads. The saddest part of it is that the very perpetrators who dished out millions (50 Million in the case of Uhuru Kenyatta) are at the forefront of this intimidation. The manifestation of this wide and amorphous intimidation is a topic on its own. Suffice is to say the Perpetrators have scored a bulls eye by making the activities benefit them politically. They killed, they used the killings to glorify and popularize themselves and now use the same to demonize incongruous voices. PEV for them is an ever giving gift.No wonder their retinue and hangers on find it ever so attractive. See how Kuria has made a career out of it with his panga-wielding rallies a grenade throw away from Uhuru Kenyatta's birthplace of Ichaweri.

Note that I have not denied Robina or anybody the right to disagree with me. However I sense that Robina is doing exactly what she is accusing me of.
 

Omollo says there is a political correctness (PC) that has choked debate and ferments tension. Imposed by post-PEV policy. He then insists any prodding of his thoughts or assertions other than outright concurrence is part of that same PC censorship Alas, how do we engage him?

Disagreeing that you are off the handle, of whatever motivation, is part of the debate. If one begrudges the Somali their entrepreneurial gene, then one could quickly bundy them collectively as "terrorists" or "Al Shaabab sympathizers". The trigger being the piling bodycount from the atrocities. It takes a certain restraint to maintain civility in constructive debate. Otherwise you have Kuria or Ngunyi kind of "honesty".

Most of these supremacist GEMA folks can issue you a similar checklist of "Luo traits" and ask for a dozen salvagable iota. Oh wait, it landed Kuria in hot soup...

[Omollo]

MoonKi

I cannot deny there is frustration with collective and mass sycophancy. It would assuage [a little of that] vexation if one occasionally met one of those 20 guys that Termie counted. However when one meets a wall of obsequiousness emanating from the same people questions as to whether it is a genetic or medical (if you like) aberration come to mind.

Robina suggests consigning it to the constitution and institution. Has she not seen how the same hoodlums have savaged the so called independent commissions? Look at the National Cohesion and Integration Commission. Who could appoint Ole Kaparo to head it unless he intended to kill it? The defacto official language in the secretariat is Tharaka / Meru. I wonder why? Maa is fast picking up.

In the meantime the Collective Mass Sycophancy is cheering!

Perhaps one could look at Omollo's words as just hyperbole, borne of frustration or something.     And perhaps not.   But it seems to me that there is certainly much antipathy towards GEMA, and it is not clear that all of it has no basis.     (How did we get to "41 vs. 1"?)

Maybe what might help would be to have people like your 20 buddies (and the like) doing more, by way of speaking up to counter the "bad elements" (Ngunyi, Kuria, et al), who seem to relish going out of their way to remind others (in less-than-friendly tones) of who is "on top, has been on top, and will always be on top".)  The continuing association with the large-scale theft of public funds, grabbing of land, etc.,  also probably doesn't help ...  although, no doubt, "everyone is eating".

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

MoonKi

I cannot deny there is frustration with collective and mass sycophancy. It would assuage [a little of that] vexation if one occasionally met one of those 20 guys that Termie counted. However when one meets a wall of obsequiousness emanating from the same people questions as to whether it is a genetic or medical (if you like) aberration come to mind.

Robina suggests consigning it to the constitution and institution. Has she not seen how the same hoodlums have savaged the so called independent commissions? Look at the National Cohesion and Integration Commission. Who could appoint Ole Kaparo to head it unless he intended to kill it? The defacto official language in the secretariat is Tharaka / Meru. I wonder why? Maa is fast picking up.

In the meantime the Collective Mass Sycophancy is cheering!

Perhaps one could look at Omollo's words as just hyperbole, borne of frustration or something.     And perhaps not.   But it seems to me that there is certainly much antipathy towards GEMA, and it is not clear that all of it has no basis.     (How did we get to "41 vs. 1"?)

Maybe what might help would be to have people like your 20 buddies (and the like) doing more, by way of speaking up to counter the "bad elements" (Ngunyi, Kuria, et al), who seem to relish going out of their way to remind others (in less-than-friendly tones) of who is "on top, has been on top, and will always be on top".)  The continuing association with the large-scale theft of public funds, grabbing of land, etc.,  also probably doesn't help ...  although, no doubt, "everyone is eating".

I didn't really count them as such.  That is a round estimate.  My point was that right off the bat, you did not have the literal facts on your side, if your claim was literal, which I know it is not.  You want to highlight intransigence of people with a conscience.  That is fair enough. 

Most people are just trying to survive.  Even the "favored" ones.  When it's time to vote, they see the messages put out and the counter messages, and it's hard to blame anyone in that environment for voting the way they do.  There are also some who vote out of ethnic delusions of grandeur; it's their right.

How did it start?  Jomo Kenyatta laid the seed.  Some would argue and it becomes a chicken/egg question.  History matters, but ultimately the only fact that we must deal with is the chicken and the egg that are presently both here. 

It would be nice to see what ideas you have, if any, for sorting out this conundrum.

[Nefertiti]

I wonder if these are part of the Windy Assassin's list. They are quite vocal too, most of them. They are not known to conform to the nyooba covenant. Michuki had a phrase for their hopping nature, which should redeem them from your hailstorm and perhaps spare the sin city 

Karua, Shebesh, Muite, Imanyara, Githongo, Kiai, Bishop Wanjiru, Kariuki Wanjiru (Mathare MP), Mwaura (nominated MP), Pasaris, Imanyara Gitobu, Imanyara Mugambi (ODM founder), Paul Mwangi (FORA lawyer), Peter Kenneth, Bob Njagi (ODM youthwinger)

[Nefertiti]

The nation-state concept is a work in progress. The mirror that told lies. You can't believe the horrible, ugly figure in the mirror... you are mighty and strong... this can't be you!!

You are right, this mirror is lying. Let us go get the mirror of truth... it was buried in the hills long ago by the great ancestors. We may have to search for it but am sure we will find it. This lying one we got from the smith at the market the other day after we discovered cast upon the old one a spell... it means we must be wary of deceitful merchants. It was clearly a fraud. How can all these people accept this mirror that lies!! There is only one mirror of truth, out in the hills somewhere...

[Omollo]

Robina

I was searching for the English version for you. Here is the image (results) and the caption below it. I am sure you do not need an interpretation but I will stand by just in case you need it contextualized

In brief I can never swear that majority is always wrong!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934

The nation-state concept is a work in progress. The mirror that told lies. You can't believe the horrible, ugly figure in the mirror... you are mighty and strong... this can't be you!!

You are right, this mirror is lying. Let us go get the mirror of truth... it was buried in the hills long ago by the great ancestors. We may have to search for it but am sure we will find it. This lying one we got from the smith at the market the other day after we discovered cast upon the old one a spell... it means we must be wary of deceitful merchants. It was clearly a fraud. How can all these people accept this mirror that lies!! There is only one mirror of truth, out in the hills somewhere...

[Nefertiti]

So clever 

Hitler was the evil genius and this does not negate the predominance of benevolent genius. The exception validates the rule.

Examples of power grabs with positive outcomes :

Winston Churchill - blank cheque on Hitler
Abraham Lincoln - defeated Southern Confederacy
Vladimir Putin - containing NATO hegemony
Chinese Communist Party - postwar renaissance

The mirror that told lies... it's a walk the talk parody on the virtue of active engagement. It changes perspective in a way armchair critique never would. You should have to work in a GEMA run establishment and confront your ogres.

Robina

I was searching for the English version for you. Here is the image (results) and the caption below it. I am sure you do not need an interpretation but I will stand by just in case you need it contextualized

In brief I can never swear that majority is always wrong!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934

The nation-state concept is a work in progress. The mirror that told lies. You can't believe the horrible, ugly figure in the mirror... you are mighty and strong... this can't be you!!

You are right, this mirror is lying...

[Omollo]

So clever 

Hitler was the evil genius and this does not negate the predominance of benevolent genius. The exception validates the rule.

Examples of power grabs with positive outcomes :

Winston Churchill - blank cheque on Hitler
Abraham Lincoln - defeated Southern Confederacy
Vladimir Putin - containing NATO hegemony
Chinese Communist Party - postwar renaissance

The mirror that told lies... it's a walk the talk parody on the virtue of active engagement. It changes perspective in a way armchair critique never would. You should have to work in a GEMA run establishment and confront your ogres.

I rather prefer GEMA worked in my turf and confront its [their] demons. If I belonged to a group that works and acts as would any robot, I would probably consider that. As you can recall Luos voted for Kibaki (a Kikuyu) at a time when Moi and KANU believed that could never happen. That confirmed that Luos can vote strategically for anybody regardless of tribe.

Walking the talk: Is it not Kibaki who rejected the entire country that voted for him and opted for his village? A guy who tongazas a national belle who turns up willing but he zips it up and runs for the old village harlot???

I had no idea Churchill and Putin grabbed power. Lincoln won a contested Republican convention. Perhaps the Chinese Communist party did grab power. It's open to debate.

[MOON Ki]

Nobody on nipate.org has denied tribalism, and specifically GEMA tribalism, as an issue in Kenya whenever it has been raised.  There simply has been nothing to debate. 

I only pointed out why I think the purpose is different in Kenya.  Not so much to favor GEMA as to create the animosity such as we see in Omollo's points.

In that context, Omollo's approach and subsequent reaction are just odd.  One has to think he is responding to some trolls on .com but using this forum.  But the trolls are there, not here.

I know, and I wasn't being entirely serious in the way I dragged in your 20 buddies.   My basic point was this: there are a lot of "perception problems", and I think some of that could be changed if more of what "detractors" might consider "the good guys" spoke up a bit more.

My basic take on Omollo's views---whether or not we take them as intentional hyperbole---is that that they actually reflect attitudes that are prevalent in many parts of Kenya, and, therefore, it behooves us to take a close look at them.   And that can, and should probably, be done quite separately from what Omollo says.

[Omollo]

I will make my comments later.... much later!

Summary:

• Aghast and un-amused, Kirinyaga leaders took to the airwaves, publicly threatening to disassociate themselves from the ruling Jubilee coalition if their original plan was changed.
• Their threats worked in a matter of weeks, and rather than shift the dual highway, two roads will now be built instead!
  

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Skewed-plans-for-highways-and-denying-tribalism-claims/-/440808/3161292/-/shain7/-/index.html

[Nefertiti]

Omollo

What do you think of FILIBUSTER as a means to assure consensus and equity in government decisions?  In the US, North Ireland and other democracies, there is a requirement that for a motion to pass, it must be supported by both an overall majority and 10% from the minority to survive a veto if contested. For instance when the GOP threatened to scuttle the Iran Nuclear Deal, Senate Democrats thwarted them by garnering 40+ votes (out of 100).

Filibuster helps to deal with majority dictatorship on divisive matters. It is a minority veto equal to the presidential veto. In Northern Ireland it was instituted to help maintain peace between Catholics and Protestants. In the UK England has a veto called EVEL because they do not have a devolved parliament.

In Kenya CORD would need to gather 140 Opposition-only votes to veto Jubilee motions in the National Assembly.

[Nefertiti]

Walking the talk: Is it not Kibaki who rejected the entire country that voted for him and opted for his village? A guy who tongazas a national belle who turns up willing but he zips it up and runs for the old village harlot??

GROSS!

[RV Pundit]

Interesting. Would certainly make Duale job harder.

Omollo

What do you think of FILIBUSTER as a means to assure consensus and equity in government decisions?  In the US, North Ireland and other democracies, there is a requirement that for a motion to pass, it must be supported by both an overall majority and 10% from the minority to survive a veto if contested. For instance when the GOP threatened to scuttle the Iran Nuclear Deal, Senate Democrats thwarted them by garnering 40+ votes (out of 100).

Filibuster helps to deal with majority dictatorship on divisive matters. It is a minority veto equal to the presidential veto. In Northern Ireland it was instituted to help maintain peace between Catholics and Protestants. In the UK England has a veto called EVEL because they do not have a devolved parliament.

In Kenya CORD would need to gather 140 Opposition-only votes to veto Jubilee motions in the National Assembly.

[Omollo]

Robina

I will accept the deviation and engage.

The idea is wonderful but sadly not much different from similar checks and balances imposed by our new constitution. When one examines each and every one of the provisions in the constitution it emerges that those who wrote it assumed that elected and appointed officials will be honorable and well, gentlemen and gentlewomen of integrity. Nothing was put in place just in case the gentlemen and gentlewomen turned out to be hoodlums with zero principles.

Now you can enact all manner of well meaning legislation, as long as we celebrate the lack of values and principles in our politicians, they will find a way of circumventing the the best of laws.

If you go go to Mslani.com and search Omollo's posts on security laws, I did my service to the Fatherland by simplifying the proposed Uhuru Kenyatta amendments and the implication on years of the struggle to free Kenyans from dictatorship. You will notice that NOT a single confessed GEMA - whether avowed Supremacist or not - opposed the amendments! Instead you will find near sighted idiots among them pillorying me for simply elucidating on the proposed amendments that were so opaque I had to pull every string to get copies.

So it is not just the MNAs and Senators that would frustrate your laws. Uhuru is busy doing what his father before him did - tearing the Constitution - and his tribesmen as cheering him on.

In that same thread, you will find that I dug up lists of detainees who had suffered under laws similar to the ones Uhuru wanted to bring back. Majority were Kikuyu and Luo. That made no impression on anybody - even when an MP plagiarized me and took it to parliament.

How come Uhuru Kenyatta appoints Opposition MPs to the cabinet without reference to their parties? Assuming we had the parliamentary system that you are preaching for and a situation arose where Opposition and Government strengths were near balanced. Would such a move not have far reaching consequences - whether the poaching is by government or Opposition?

Good laws are easily wasted on wild animals!

Omollo

What do you think of FILIBUSTER as a means to assure consensus and equity in government decisions?  In the US, North Ireland and other democracies, there is a requirement that for a motion to pass, it must be supported by both an overall majority and 10% from the minority to survive a veto if contested. For instance when the GOP threatened to scuttle the Iran Nuclear Deal, Senate Democrats thwarted them by garnering 40+ votes (out of 100).

Filibuster helps to deal with majority dictatorship on divisive matters. It is a minority veto equal to the presidential veto. In Northern Ireland it was instituted to help maintain peace between Catholics and Protestants. In the UK England has a veto called EVEL because they do not have a devolved parliament.

In Kenya CORD would need to gather 140 Opposition-only votes to veto Jubilee motions in the National Assembly.

[Omollo]

Do not take it literally. It is an analogy expressing what Kibaki did. He rejected the entire country and opted for his villagers through skewed appointments and tribal policies.

I see Uhuru doing the same: He pretends to aid Mumias when in fact he is paying fat cats who supplied Mumias with goods at over inflated prices. He sold off Pan Paper for 900M yet the land on which it stands and all the movable assets are valued at 15B

The Farmers in Mumias will continue delivering sugarcane valued at 250K and taking home a payslip and no cash. How is that a solution? In Central however, cooperative loans for individual farmers are cleared so that the farmer can make new ones for Uhuru to again write off. Such hard working farmers that Pundit heaped praise upon.

If I were a Kikuyu farmer, why would I even plant anything with that kind of arrangement? I would collect the inputs provided on "loan" then sell them all and wait for the next bailout from "lazy" tax payers

Walking the talk: Is it not Kibaki who rejected the entire country that voted for him and opted for his village? A guy who tongazas a national belle who turns up willing but he zips it up and runs for the old village harlot??

GROSS!

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Nobody on nipate.org has denied tribalism, and specifically GEMA tribalism, as an issue in Kenya whenever it has been raised.  There simply has been nothing to debate. 

I only pointed out why I think the purpose is different in Kenya.  Not so much to favor GEMA as to create the animosity such as we see in Omollo's points.

In that context, Omollo's approach and subsequent reaction are just odd.  One has to think he is responding to some trolls on .com but using this forum.  But the trolls are there, not here.

I know, and I wasn't being entirely serious in the way I dragged in your 20 buddies.   My basic point was this: there are a lot of "perception problems", and I think some of that could be changed if more of what "detractors" might consider "the good guys" spoke up a bit more.

My basic take on Omollo's views---whether or not we take them as intentional hyperbole---is that that they actually reflect attitudes that are prevalent in many parts of Kenya, and, therefore, it behooves us to take a close look at them.   And that can, and should probably, be done quite separately from what Omollo says.

The good guys speak out.  But nobody on either side pays attention.  If we were to start keeping tabs, some will be surprised. 

I see attitudes as something only education and exposure can change.  The wrong type of exposure can also harden them.  That is why the "good guys" from both sides don't have to wait for their counterparts to speak up.

Taking a machete and lopping off heads can release some testosterone, initially, but is generally of limited use, if Rwanda, CAR, the South Sudan employment dispute, are anything to go by.