Could One Name a Dozen Non-Biased GEMA

[Omollo]

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Ofcourse I can name Maina Kiai. Then it gets harder. I need names of Kikuyus [Embus and Merus] who:

1. Stand up and be counted opposing Extra Judicial Killings
2. Still believe in the cause of IPPG which forced Moi to agree to minimum reforms before elections
3. Oppose the unwarranted and unnecessary use of teargas and deployment of riot police all over Kenya
4. Oppose the Uhuru Security Laws that undermined the constitution
5. Believe in Land Reform
6. Can swear that the ICC is NOT a Raila Odinga court (good if it is trying him and bad if it is not)
7. Can admit that Uhuru Kenyatta is leading the Most Corrupt Government in Africa
8. Does not secretly believe Kikuyus were born to rule Kenya
9. Does not believe other Kenyans are "inferior"
10. Can admit that GEMA managers FAIL wherever they are sent to run GoK institutions

[RV Pundit]

Out nearly 10M GEMA surely they deserve more respect than your attempt to dehumanize them.

These kinds of threads surely have no place here.

[Nefertiti]

Omollo this is just further proof you are anti-Kikuyu.

[RVtitem]

Some of it is true. I believe most gikuyu have the mentally that they come third after whites and Indians. This was the structure put in place by kenyatta senior after borrowing from colonial era.

Pure capitalism structure is what has allowed the country to go to brink of war. Everyone is trying to enrich himself regardless of the cost to society. And central are dominant.

Remember in days of high school, it was easy to spot personalities from more socialist communities who tend to be less selfish...Under the current kenyan capitalist system, such communities suffer most (talk of maasai etc) and have been labelled as lazy.

[Omollo]

I disagree. You have not demonstrated why this issue cannot be be debated here. There are many forms of tribalism including supporting the State Murder of other people (not your own).

1. So far having done a thorough search of the media, I have noted that there is not a single person from Central other than Maina Kiai, Adv. Nderitu, Githongo opposing EJK. On the contrary there has been massive support for extra Judicial Killings from this area. Support (as shown by the frquency and quantity of statements of support in the media) seems to pick up steam one year after Kibaki takes over and hits the roof with the Westgate attack.

2. The number of Central MPs who support enactment of minimum reforms as proposed by the Post PEV commissions: ZERO

Out nearly 10M GEMA surely they deserve more respect than your attempt to dehumanize them.

These kinds of threads surely have no place here.

[Omollo]

What is anti-Kikuyu about proven facts?

Omollo this is just further proof you are anti-Kikuyu.

[Omollo]

RVT

What you say may be true but my thread is based on the 10  reference points I made earlier. How is it possible that out of 10 Million people (according to Pundit) one cannot get a dozen dissenting from the collective political view? Maina Kiai, John Githongo, Marthan Karua are publicly harangued and subjected to collective and mass political pillory for daring to dissent.

There is no time I never hear of Luos being called sheep who vote blindly for Raila. Yet Luos voted for Kibaki en-mass in 2002. In 2007 and 2013 Kibaki and Uhuru got more votes in Nyanza than Raila got in Central. Yet the narrative continues unabated. Now when I point out a trait - which BTW I can prove - accusations come streaming in.

How shall we face tribalism if we keep sweeping it under the carpet? 

Some of it is true. I believe most gikuyu have the mentally that they come third after whites and Indians. This was the structure put in place by kenyatta senior after borrowing from colonial era.

Pure capitalism structure is what has allowed the country to go to brink of war. Everyone is trying to enrich himself regardless of the cost to society. And central are dominant.

Remember in days of high school, it was easy to spot personalities from more socialist communities who tend to be less selfish...Under the current kenyan capitalist system, such communities suffer most (talk of maasai etc) and have been labelled as lazy.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Omollo,

This is what Jubilee, especially TNA, wants you to think and say.  They need you to alienate the regular GEMA.  That is their oxygen.

[Omollo]

Termie

If I knew there were a number of people to redeem in that province I would do it. There is such a collective spirit over there I worry that the day a non Kikuyu is elected the neighboring countries will record a sharp rise in refugees.

People do not reach that level of collective paranoia just by reading Omollo. It is sad  because instead of this matter being addressed, talking about it has been equated to holocaust denial.

Omollo,

This is what Jubilee, especially TNA, wants you to think and say.  They need you to alienate the regular GEMA.  That is their oxygen.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Termie

If I knew there were a number of people to redeem in that province I would do it. There is such a collective spirit over there I worry that the day a non Kikuyu is elected the neighboring countries will record a sharp rise in refugees.

People do not reach that level of collective paranoia just by reading Omollo. It is sad  because instead of this matter being addressed, talking about it has been equated to holocaust denial.

Omollo,

This is what Jubilee, especially TNA, wants you to think and say.  They need you to alienate the regular GEMA.  That is their oxygen.

It should be discussed.  But there are ways of doing it that worsens the circling of the wagons so to speak.  It's not fair to say that there are less than 12 GEMA that see a lot that is wrong, when I can personally count more than 20; maybe they are not famous, but there are full blooded Kikuyus that don't care for kamwana.

[RV Pundit]

You speak for me. The wording make it no-go zone for me and any decent person here. It okay to say Majority of GEMA think this way or that way. It something else to say claim if there are decent gema people apart from Kiai. Of course they are many running into thousands. You can count many thousands married to Luos for starters. If they believe in what Omollo alleges..would they love and bear kids with Luos?

This thread is in such a bad taste it cannot be rehabilitated except in choo.com

It should be discussed.  But there are ways of doing it that worsens the circling of the wagons so to speak.  It's not fair to say that there are less than 12 GEMA that see a lot that is wrong, when I can personally count more than 20; maybe they are not famous, but there are full blooded Kikuyus that don't care for kamwana.

[Omollo]

It should be discussed.  But there are ways of doing it that worsens the circling of the wagons so to speak.  It's not fair to say that there are less than 12 GEMA that see a lot that is wrong, when I can personally count more than 20; maybe they are not famous, but there are full blooded Kikuyus that don't care for kamwana.

Twenty only and you say I am wrong?

May be the 20 should get louder as the din of those with a contrary view drowns theirs. There is nothing to write home about when one quietly say stealing is bad but then dips his hand in the stolen candy jar. In case it didn't come out clearly we are talking mass and collective denial of principles and values where the tribal demagogue takes precedent over all else.

Take the case of Koigi wa Wamwere. He has undergone not so unpredictable changes. From being a detainee opposed to all forms of oppression to a Kibaki sycophant whom Uhuru found to Kibakish to give a job. What happened to his stand between 1990s and 2003? You can guess.

Did not Murungi hide in the US Embassy for his principles or was it his tribe after all?

Termie, I really don't have to go searching in the former mau mau tunnels to find some 20 people who still adhere to basic human principles and eschew blindly following whatever tribal demagogue emerges. There was a large pool of them in the 90s fighting Moi and elucidating on the latest in Human Rights and Good politics - well educated, candid and photogenic. Did they perish in an epidemic so that you have to get 20 riff-raff (sorry for the arrogance) to parade before us?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

It should be discussed.  But there are ways of doing it that worsens the circling of the wagons so to speak.  It's not fair to say that there are less than 12 GEMA that see a lot that is wrong, when I can personally count more than 20; maybe they are not famous, but there are full blooded Kikuyus that don't care for kamwana.

Twenty only and you say I am wrong?

May be the 20 should get louder as the din of those with a contrary view drowns theirs. There is nothing to write home about when one quietly say stealing is bad but then dips his hand in the stolen candy jar. In case it didn't come out clearly we are talking mass and collective denial of principles and values where the tribal demagogue takes precedent over all else.

Take the case of Koigi wa Wamwere. He has undergone not so unpredictable changes. From being a detainee opposed to all forms of oppression to a Kibaki sycophant whom Uhuru found to Kibakish to give a job. What happened to his stand between 1990s and 2003? You can guess.

Did not Murungi hide in the US Embassy for his principles or was it his tribe after all?

Termie, I really don't have to go searching in the former mau mau tunnels to find some 20 people who still adhere to basic human principles and eschew blindly following whatever tribal demagogue emerges. There was a large pool of them in the 90s fighting Moi and elucidating on the latest in Human Rights and Good politics - well educated, candid and photogenic. Did they perish in an epidemic so that you have to get 20 riff-raff (sorry for the arrogance) to parade before us?

Kenya is a tribalistic nation.  It's better when your tribe is in power.   Being in power is a life and death situation.  Why should GEMA commit suicide?

The more productive approach, I think is to ask, why is tribalism such a force in the first place?

[Omollo]

You speak for me. The wording make it no-go zone for me and any decent person here. It okay to say Majority of GEMA think this way or that way. It something else to say claim if there are decent gema people apart from Kiai. Of course they are many running into thousands. You can count many thousands married to Luos for starters. If they believe in what Omollo alleges..would they love and bear kids with Luos?

This thread is in such a bad taste it cannot be rehabilitated except in choo.com

Of course there are many well dressed people from GEMA. I never denied that the women make good wives for Luos or should I say Luo make good partners. My Kalenjin wife votes with me. It has never occurred to her or me that she vote different from how I vote. I would like to assume (in the true African spirit) that all Luo women married to Merus vote the way the Meru husbands vote. They are in other words part of the "Collective". I should be surprised if any serious man would argue with that position.

Any Luo woman in Central therefore stands equally charged alongside his man. In Gatundu North Constituency Raila scored 349 votes. Should I assume those were Luo women? I think not. Those are people with grudges against Mama Ngina over land and other worldly things. The 349 are not driven by principle but personal vendetta. I doubt that such a large number will repeat as they were "cut to size" after holding demonstration against Uhuru Kenyatta. The entire Gatundu could boast of having no dissent under Moses Kuria.

Has Uhuru Kenyatta ever condemned Moses Kuria?

[bryan275]

I think Omollo has every right to offend, just like he has to contend with the massive stream of offensive material directed at his preferred political leader(s).

The most dangerous area for us as a nation is to work ourselves into complicit silence through fear of causing offence. 

Omollo is right, Luos are constantly referred to as sheep yet, the accusers voted to a man for their man.  Perhaps they are more sheepish than the "sheep"?  We currently have a situation where both Ruto and Uhuru are practising obscene levels of tribalism whilst working hard to criminalise(by implication) the necessary discussion of their brand of tribalism.

Just last week Odinga was accused of tribalism for trying to assemble a tribal coalition.  His accusers?  Members of Jubilee.   It's a joke.

[Nefertiti]

Kenya is a tribalistic nation.  It's better when your tribe is in power.   Being in power is a life and death situation.  Why should GEMA commit suicide?

The more productive approach, I think is to ask, why is tribalism such a force in the first place?

Exactly. Why is tribalism? What are the solutions? What are Omollo's suggestions?

More devolution and equalization has been suggested to deal with development inequality. Politically the parliamentary system neutralizes tyranny. You cannot mandate love and unity but you can mitigate division through cohesive policies.

We can borrow from countries that have grappled with sectarianism -- SA, Rwanda, US, etc. They have managed to contain deeper rifts than Kenya.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Kenya is a tribalistic nation.  It's better when your tribe is in power.   Being in power is a life and death situation.  Why should GEMA commit suicide?

The more productive approach, I think is to ask, why is tribalism such a force in the first place?

Exactly. Why is tribalism? What are the solutions? What are Omollo's suggestions?

More devolution and equalization has been suggested to deal with development inequality. Politically the parliamentary system neutralizes tyranny. You cannot mandate love and unity but you can mitigate division through cohesive policies.

We can borrow from countries that have grappled with sectarianism -- SA, Rwanda, US, etc. They have managed to contain deeper rifts than Kenya.

I am not too sure about Rwanda.  That place is a ticking time bomb. 

South Africa has for the most part very similar ethnic groups.  Zulus, Xhosas, Swazis etc could be lumped together much like Luhyas in Kenya.  In fact, if you look at countries in the South, from Tz onwards ethnicity is less of an issue.  There are exceptions such as the Matabeleland massacres; but for the most part, the Bantu in that part of the world is not about to kill fellow Bantu.

When you get to East Africa you have an interesting collision of cultures.  The Bantu meets Nilote and Cushite.  A mzungu comes in, lumps them together and hands the reins over to a member of one group.

[Omollo]

First is the usual question or is it irritation of demanding that every complaint has to be made by a Think Tank offering solutions. Nowhere but in Jubilee's head is one required to provide solutions to the very bastards who have failed miserably.

Have they not read the Constitution that clearly outlaws tribalism while providing clearer guidelines as to how to eschew it than any critics? Is Uhuru so dumb that he is unaware of the shameful tribalism in his appointments to tax-payer funded positions? Are those who collectively support the bias equally stupid and retarded? When he dishes out state funds to support tribal cultivation of a narcotic is he in need of suggestions of how not to do it? Is he supporting farming or is it the buying of votes using taxes?

I am sure given to choose Uhuru would embrace the Kagame draconian tactics which deny ordinary citizens a voice just because they belong to the unwanted tribe. Bryan has already shown how already we have double standards in the very use of tribe for political organization." Our tribalism is Right and acceptable but theirs is wrong and undesirable" is Uhuru's mantra.

Back to my earlier position: Everywhere I see the GEMA tribal intelligentsia providing the intellectual apology for the raw discrimination. Others are guided by the results of years of intimidation that dictate they never mention the crimes of tribalism. "Decent" people should not mention Uhuru's  tribalism lest that scandalize "decent" debate. Reminds of of the Houyhnhnms and Yahoos in Swifts Gulliver's Travels.

The countries Robina mentions have not eliminated sectarianism. However one of them has at least combined moral opprobrium and institutions to at least address it. This did not come on a silver platter or by the avoidance of mentioning the evil.Martin Luther King did not lead the Civil Rights movement by avoiding to address or name Racism.

Had it been Germany (which Robina likes to lift up) Uhuru would have been forced to resign for simply suggesting that Kenya exit the ICC while he is still a SUSPECT! Where is the opprobrium? Nowhere. Instead the focus is on those who raise it.

It should be a crime for a group of politicians to indoctrinate whole tribes against modern principles and values of running public affairs. Uhuru and lately Ruto have succeeded in doing just that to the Kalenjin and Kikuyu (GEMA if you like).

Like Thatcher, I say No, No No!! We shall name tribalism even if it involves 10 million people. Kenya is fast approaching 50 Million people.

Exactly. Why is tribalism? What are the solutions? What are Omollo's suggestions?

More devolution and equalization has been suggested to deal with development inequality. Politically the parliamentary system neutralizes tyranny. You cannot mandate love and unity but you can mitigate division through cohesive policies.

We can borrow from countries that have grappled with sectarianism -- SA, Rwanda, US, etc. They have managed to contain deeper rifts than Kenya.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

First is the usual question or is it irritation of demanding that every complaint has to be made by a Think Tank offering solutions. Nowhere but in Jubilee's head is one required to provide solutions to the very bastards who have failed miserably.

Have they not read the Constitution that clearly outlaws tribalism while providing clearer guidelines as to how to eschew it than any critics? Is Uhuru so dumb that he is unaware of the shameful tribalism in his appointments to tax-payer funded positions? Are those who collectively support the bias equally stupid and retarded? When he dishes out state funds to support tribal cultivation of a narcotic is he in need of suggestions of how not to do it? Is he supporting farming or is it the buying of votes using taxes?

I am sure given to choose Uhuru would embrace the Kagame draconian tactics which deny ordinary citizens a voice just because they belong to the unwanted tribe. Bryan has already shown how already we have double standards in the very use of tribe for political organization." Our tribalism is Right and acceptable but theirs is wrong and undesirable" is Uhuru's mantra.

Back to my earlier position: Everywhere I see the GEMA tribal intelligentsia providing the intellectual apology for the raw discrimination. Others are guided by the results of years of intimidation that dictate they never mention the crimes of tribalism. "Decent" people should not mention Uhuru's  tribalism lest that scandalize "decent" debate. Reminds of of the Houyhnhnms and Yahoos in Swifts Gulliver's Travels.

The countries Robina mentions have not eliminated sectarianism. However one of them has at least combined moral opprobrium and institutions to at least address it. This did not come on a silver platter or by the avoidance of mentioning the evil.Martin Luther King did not lead the Civil Rights movement by avoiding to address or name Racism.

Had it been Germany (which Robina likes to lift up) Uhuru would have been forced to resign for simply suggesting that Kenya exit the ICC while he is still a SUSPECT! Where is the opprobrium? Nowhere. Instead the focus is on those who raise it.

It should be a crime for a group of politicians to indoctrinate whole tribes against modern principles and values of running public affairs. Uhuru and lately Ruto have succeeded in doing just that to the Kalenjin and Kikuyu (GEMA if you like).

Like Thatcher, I say No, No No!! We shall name tribalism even if it involves 10 million people. Kenya is fast approaching 50 Million people.

Exactly. Why is tribalism? What are the solutions? What are Omollo's suggestions?

More devolution and equalization has been suggested to deal with development inequality. Politically the parliamentary system neutralizes tyranny. You cannot mandate love and unity but you can mitigate division through cohesive policies.

We can borrow from countries that have grappled with sectarianism -- SA, Rwanda, US, etc. They have managed to contain deeper rifts than Kenya.

Omollo,

I don't talk about GEMA tribalism, not because it is not outrageous or intimidation, but because I don't know what to do about it.  There is a constitution and once in a while an Okoiti will go to court with some prayer.  When I know what to do about it, I'll not hesitate to talk about it.

[MOON Ki]

I am not too sure about Rwanda.  That place is a ticking time bomb. 

From the late 1990s on, my late father  frequently told me that Kenya was a ticking time bomb that would surely explode one day.   That was what first came to my my mind when the PEV started.   Just before that I heard of something called "41 versus 1", which suggested a great deal of resentment against some "1".    Have those resentments been resolved, or are they being made worse?   Is the current situation anything more than an uneasy peace implicitly enforced by the ICC? (In relation to this, Kofi Anan recently warned us that those who give up the quest for justice in return for peace inevitably learn a bitter lesson.)

We should, on all sides, aim to avoid words and actions that increase resentment and hatred.   But at the same time, we ought engage in some soul-searching and open discussions, even if we consider them somewhat distasteful, along with appropriate changes.    Otherwise Round Two is just a matter of when, not if---no matter how long the "peace" lasts.