Ruto & Sang verdict on full trial

[RV Pundit]

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This will be out today. Whatever the outcome, either side will appeal. I am seeing the judges letting this play out in full trial. Which is waste of court's time and resources.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

If they let them walk, the stakes become high for 2017.  Everyone will know that winning by any means is a viable option.

[Globalcitizen12]

Very poorly prosecuted case. I think icc should let these ones walk and pr0secure witness interference

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Very poorly prosecuted case. I think icc should let these ones walk and pr0secure witness interference

How well or badly it was prosecuted maybe debatable.  Regardless of guilt or innocence, obviously Ocampo could have done better by seeking an arrest warrant from the get-go.  Leaving primary suspects virtually in charge of the scene of crime, how to cooperate and evidence is insane in any jurisdiction. 

[RV Pundit]

ICC is not the singular answer to tribal clashes. It part of the answers. Now when you have this totally bungled like have been done here. Then it become a sham. ICC was suppose to be world class investigation, prosecution and trial. It turned out to be a kangaroo innovating and improvising along the way.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

ICC is not the singular answer to tribal clashes. It part of the answers. Now when you have this totally bungled like have been done here. Then it become a sham. ICC was suppose to be world class investigation, prosecution and trial. It turned out to be a kangaroo innovating and improvising along the way.

It might have been bungled.  But you have to assume that witness bribery, intimidation and murder is a figment of the imagination to put the blame fully on the ICC.  Warriors were financed and moved around RV slaughtering in their wake.  Or they did it spontaneously unsponsored, hiring their own lorries, pangas and the works. 

ICC role is/was to unravel the mta-do attitude that prevails when a big-man commits serious crimes in Kenya, since the 90s maybe even earlier.  You remove it, people will finance violent activities.

[Empedocles]

ICC drops cases against DP Ruto and journalist Sang

[RV Pundit]

Unlike you, I was right at the epicenter of the violence during the violence, and violence in RV was not any different from violence everywhere. It was a spotanous reaction to brazen rigging. Ocampo theory that there was years of pre-planning was just whack.

The only organization that was there in RV is the age-old kalenjin war tradition; war cry, warriors of an age set assembling, and moving in large numbers. This has been happening for thousands of years. It doesn't need politicians. People are trained to do these things every year during initiation.

ICC should have listen to late German Judge Kaul (sp) who saw this BS right from the start when Ocampo was asking to open investigation.

Warriors were financed and moved around RV slaughtering in their wake.  Or they did it spontaneously unsponsored, hiring their own lorries, pangas and the works. 

[RV Pundit]

Bensauda seem to be dumbfounded. There is no press release nor indication she will appeal. These cases have been nightmarish for OTP. First they got 2-1 of judges allow investigation way back in 2010. Then during confirmation hearing they lost 2 of the six(6). Before trial could beginning,  all Uhuru-Muthaura witnesses had either recanted or disappeared or proved unreliable. Then they move on, Ruto and Sang cases have collapsed without them having to defend themselves.

And yet these cases have cost the court very enormous resources. Six cases. No full trial. Maybe Ruto and Uhuru were "powerful" to exterminate their witness. But were Sang or Ali or Kosgey really that powerful?

Clearly case of an incompetent OTP that need to be investigated. For example in Kosgey case they only had ONE hearsay WITNESS. Kosgey didn't have to disappear or buy anymore.He walked out free having had his name tarnished by Ocampo. At end of Ruto & Sang case they had zero credible witnesses. In Uhuru et al cases..they ended up without any crucial witness.

These cases were right from get go political. The idea by Annan/West was to do something about PEV. To at best provide a deterent for future violence. Noble ideas. Stupid solution.

You can never solve political problems through legal means.

Will these sham trial act as deterent or enabler of future violence. I bet the later.This mirror a story we had growing up next to tea plantation by British firms. Folks used to think the Brits would never allow any violence  in their plantations. It was sort of last refuge if things went haywire. Until 2007 happened and many poor folks of gusii descent found themselves completely abandoned if not betrayed by Brits management. There was no one looking out for tea farmer workers..except our cops...who were already overwhelmed providing humanitarian assistance.It was free for all for village thugs to do whatever they wanted.

We are definitely heading for more tribal clashes in the near future. Until we solve our political problems. And we can do this only through more and more devolution. Through more and more tribal federation. Each tribe in kenya has to feel they can determine their destiny. By tribe I mean a sizeable group of people that speak a dialect and geographical live in same area.

Some tribes pretend they hate or like ICC or this or that...while all this is just political posturing to capture state power and resources. We can do this peaceful. Not through Dr Ndii idiotic splitting of the country. But by slowly seceding power to 47 counties that are shared largely along tribal lines..bar a few ones..that need to be corrected.

All the 42 or so big tribes and sub-tribes deserve to stay in federal states they'd love to stay in. Kenya which is a foreign concept that mere 100yrs old should remain as small as possible. Providing only functions that cannot be devolved.

We are on the right path with devolution...and will get there once we have build enough capacity..and transferred more and more functions to counties. This has to be done slowly.

[Globalcitizen12]

any tribal nationalist to me whether a political leader or RV pundit is a person lacking core belief that we are humans first and your heritage is secondary. What Kalenjins, Kikuyus, Luos nationalist did during PEV should not go unpunished. No amount of devolution negate the right of Life. Uhuru and Ruto now must make sure there is a mechanism put in place to punish the foot soldiers who participated in  the violence.

Telling that Kalenjins have a tradition of going to war of elections or transgressions by elites to attack innocent civilians is stretching the importance of tradition and kalenjins over life. We have Kenya or we do not have it no ifs or buts

[RV Pundit]

There is reality. And there is fiction. You're engaged in fiction. To be fair in idealism. This is the reality. We have been tribes fighting for thousands (recorded history) if not millions years. We are humans. But more than that we are ANIMALS. We are primates.

We can choose to continue running around in circles or admit that our tribal loyalties surpass the love of this British idea called Kenya. Kenya is irredeemably tribal. Maybe TZ will escape this...but for us the genie is out.

We need more and more federation. That way people can stop fighting for who become PORK. And concentrate on electing MCAS and Governors who are like them and can deliver.
 

any tribal nationalist to me whether a political leader or RV pundit is a person lacking core belief that we are humans first and your heritage is secondary. What Kalenjins, Kikuyus, Luos nationalist did during PEV should not go unpunished. No amount of devolution negate the right of Life. Uhuru and Ruto now must make sure there is a mechanism put in place to punish the foot soldiers who participated in  the violence.

Telling that Kalenjins have a tradition of going to war of elections or transgressions by elites to attack innocent civilians is stretching the importance of tradition and kalenjins over life. We have Kenya or we do not have it no ifs or buts

[Globalcitizen12]

I beg to differ. Cultures evolve and Knowledge and leadership should allow us all to evolve. Socialization too can play part. Parenting is the biggest inoculator of humans against primitivity. Any Elite  who calls on his people to rise up against innocent civilian has no place in the modern society whether it within a tribal nation or Multicultural nation. Kalenjins should reevaluate their traditions and decide whether these act of attacking innocent civilians is war or criminal activity. Where I grew up, any attack on civilians is a war crime and my community protects the minorities.
When Elections dispute started and local hoodlums started calling on people to attack minorities my community elders and leadership stood firm and provided safe havens for these minorities. No man or woman was even slapped during PEV in my whole location. Those that were fearful were taken back to their homeland free of charge and asked to return when they felt safe.

during elections 2013 elections some election observers started open ballots and checking those that had voted for CORD. The community learnt about it later and all those who did so were warned never to repeat the same.

There is no reason to allow what happens in RV every 10 years to go unpunished. Tribal clashes should be put to a stop by any means necessary.

I hope next time there is a leader with enough resolve to stop the violence by any means necessary.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Bensauda seem to be dumbfounded. There is no press release nor indication she will appeal. These cases have been nightmarish for OTP. First they got 2-1 of judges allow investigation way back in 2010. Then during confirmation hearing they lost 2 of the six(6). Before trial could beginning,  all Uhuru-Muthaura witnesses had either recanted or disappeared or proved unreliable. Then they move on, Ruto and Sang cases have collapsed without them having to defend themselves.

And yet these cases have cost the court very enormous resources. Six cases. No full trial. Maybe Ruto and Uhuru were "powerful" to exterminate their witness. But were Sang or Ali or Kosgey really that powerful?

Clearly case of an incompetent OTP that need to be investigated. For example in Kosgey case they only had ONE hearsay WITNESS. Kosgey didn't have to disappear or buy anymore.He walked out free having had his name tarnished by Ocampo. At end of Ruto & Sang case they had zero credible witnesses. In Uhuru et al cases..they ended up without any crucial witness.

These cases were right from get go political. The idea by Annan/West was to do something about PEV. To at best provide a deterent for future violence. Noble ideas. Stupid solution.

You can never solve political problems through legal means.

Will these sham trial act as deterent or enabler of future violence. I bet the later.This mirror a story we had growing up next to tea plantation by British firms. Folks used to think the Brits would never allow any violence  in their plantations. It was sort of last refuge if things went haywire. Until 2007 happened and many poor folks of gusii descent found themselves completely abandoned if not betrayed by Brits management. There was no one looking out for tea farmer workers..except our cops...who were already overwhelmed providing humanitarian assistance.It was free for all for village thugs to do whatever they wanted.

We are definitely heading for more tribal clashes in the near future. Until we solve our political problems. And we can do this only through more and more devolution. Through more and more tribal federation. Each tribe in kenya has to feel they can determine their destiny. By tribe I mean a sizeable group of people that speak a dialect and geographical live in same area.

Some tribes pretend they hate or like ICC or this or that...while all this is just political posturing to capture state power and resources. We can do this peaceful. Not through Dr Ndii idiotic splitting of the country. But by slowly seceding power to 47 counties that are shared largely along tribal lines..bar a few ones..that need to be corrected.

All the 42 or so big tribes and sub-tribes deserve to stay in federal states they'd love to stay in. Kenya which is a foreign concept that mere 100yrs old should remain as small as possible. Providing only functions that cannot be devolved.

We are on the right path with devolution...and will get there once we have build enough capacity..and transferred more and more functions to counties. This has to be done slowly.

I concur it was nightmarish for the OTP.  I am not sure what a competent OTP would do in a case with this level of witness tampering and government non-cooperation; I am assuming you have seen Osuji's opinion.  The hustler managed to make traction after 2013 election.

[RV Pundit]

What about Sang? What about Kosgey? What about Ali? Of course I know for a fact that ICC 9 crucial witness against Ruto were just liars; they were mostly PNU supporters who sold bull stories about how close they were to Ruto.

OTP did a whack job here. And when the so called witness interference and bribery cases are started and concluded; it will be obvious Bensauda is also running on empty here.

How do you interfere with folks who had been long relocated to Europe?

I concur it was nightmarish for the OTP.  I am not sure what a competent OTP would do in a case with this level of witness tampering and government non-cooperation; I am assuming you have seen Osuji's opinion.  The hustler managed to make traction after 2013 election.

[MOON Ki]

How do you interfere with folks who had been long relocated to Europe?

I don't think it's that difficult.   But before we get to that: Some witnesses were initially relocated to African countries and then relocated again or either stayed there.   Yet others actually stayed in Kenya!   In either case, I don't imagine that it would be too difficult to find them.

To the main point:  Witnesses in "witness protection" program never actually lives of complete isolation from the past.   I once looked at some data on witnesses in the USA system who had been found (and dealt with) by murderous former associates, and in almost all cases it was the witnesses own actions that lead to the "discovery"---a man missing a lady who used to give him a sweet something, or getting in touch with friends, etc.

Now, consider the African case, and the strength (or at least seriousness) of family relationships, all the way to "extended" families.   At best the witness-protection program will relocate a man (woman), spouse, and children---not brothers, sisters, cousins, etc.   Can we really expect a person in Europe to not reveal to brothers, sisters, etc. information on his whereabouts?   And can we really expect that when it's the "authorities" (i.e. the big people) in Kenya who are interested that we can rule out the squeezing or offering of inducements to the relatives as a way to get to the witness?  As I see it getting to an African witness, even if in Europe, is not especially difficult.   More so for those with the power and money, but even so otherwise: simply start with the relatives.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is Kenya, Land of Eaters, and who would miss an opportunity to take a bite?   Take, for example Witness 800 (see Decision).   He admitted, to the court, under oath, that he ate and also worked on (or at least agreed to help work on) other witnesses.   That he seemingly did so without any coercion and in fact apparently lied to start with, so that he could eat to recant, does not absolve the bribers.   More importantly, it puts paid to any claims that there was no witness-interference, and it certainly simplifies the case for witness corruption.

We'll have to wait and see ...  My own guess is that money has been eaten in the Kenyan judiciary (Court of Appeal) to sit on cases like Barasa's.    Whether that will be maintained remains to be seen, but I think we can count on the OTP not forgetting them; in their shoes, I would now appear "voluntarily".

[RV Pundit]

Is that why  the witness unit exist!

Bensauda claims a lot of bribery. But we know her witnesses went to Bensauda in the first place because of the opportunity to make money. And most of them (if not all of them) have dodgy past.

Bensauda was dealing with crooks. And those crooks knew they were never going lie under oath.

Nothing will come out of the so called article 70. First there is NO nexus btw Ruto and the 3. They seem random folks. A journalist, a tractor driver and a lawyer that are not connected to Ruto in anyway and seem to have "bribed" those guys under their own initiative.

Assuming anything is believable in Bensauda nonsenses. Let forget the guns and gas story.

First Bensauda NEED TO INVESTIGATE the crooks she was dealing with.

I don't think it's that difficult.   But before we get to that: Some witnesses were initially relocated to African countries and then relocated again or either stayed there.   Yet others actually stayed in Kenya!   In either case, I don't imagine that it would be too difficult to find them.

To the main point:  Witnesses in "witness protection" program never actually lives of complete isolation from the past.   I once looked at some data on witnesses in the USA system who had been found (and dealt with) by murderous former associates, and in almost all cases it was the witnesses own actions that lead to the "discovery"---a man missing a lady who used to give him a sweet something, or getting in touch with friends, etc.

Now, consider the African case, and the strength (or at least seriousness) of family relationships, all the way to "extended" families.   At best the witness-protection program will relocate a man (woman), spouse, and children---not brothers, sisters, cousins, etc.   Can we really expect a person in Europe to not reveal to brothers, sisters, etc. information on his whereabouts?   And can we really expect that when it's the "authorities" (i.e. the big people) in Kenya who are interested that we can rule out the squeezing or offering of inducements to the relatives as a way to get to the witness?  As I see it getting to an African witness, even if in Europe, is not especially difficult.   More so for those with the power and money, but even so otherwise: simply start with the relatives.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is Kenya, Land of Eaters, and who would miss an opportunity to take a bite?   Take, for example Witness 800 (see Decision).   He admitted, to the court, under oath, that he ate and also worked on (or at least agreed to help work on) other witnesses.   That he seemingly did so without any coercion does not absolve the bribers, puts to rest any claims that there was no witness-interference, and certainly simplifies the case for witness corruption.

We'll have to wait and see ...  My own guess is that money has been eaten in the Kenyan judiciary (Court of Appeal) to sit on cases like Barasa's.    Whether that will be maintained remains to be seen, but I think we can count on the OTP not forgetting them; in their shoes, I would now appear "voluntarily".

[MOON Ki]

Is that why  the witness unit exist!

Not to my mind.   The basic function of the such a unit is to ensure the general safety and welfare of the witnesses.   It is, for example, harder to kill witnesses in Europe than in Africa.

Nothing will come out of the so called article 70. First there is NO nexus btw Ruto and the 3. A journalist, a tractor driver and a lawyer that are not connected to Ruto in anyway and seem to have "bribed" those guys under their own initiative.

Possible, but I haven't seen any information that would definitely lead to that conclusion.   Have you?  One also presumes that Ruto, if he was involved, would be smart and careful enough to avoid any obvious connection.

Assuming anything is believable in Bensauda nonsenses.

Perhaps so with assumptions.   But things are (or should be) somewhat harder to dismiss when a witness gets up in front of the judges and provides some details.

[RV Pundit]

We just had 7 years of listening to the crap and at end of it all...they had zero credible witness..not even those providing stuff that were not contested.

I don't believe Baraza was acting for Ruto. Neither do I believe he bribed them. I believe those witnesses are crooks who will not hesitate to lie and lie and lie endlessly.

The probe need to start on those dodgy fellows that were masquerading as witnesses. Otherwise at what point do Bensauda believe and distrust these guys.

Once it determined they are people of intergrity; then you can open another pipeline.

Artilce 70 cases will end up the same way. These so called bribed witnesses will not show up. Just like they never showed on the main stage.

And Baraza, the tractor driver and lawyer Njeru should not be subjected to this kind of nonsenses.

Perhaps.   But things are (or should be) harder to dismiss when a witness gets up in front of the judges and provides some details.

[Globalcitizen12]

witnesses credibility zero. state interference I am waiting to see evidence. Uhuru may be to some extent quilty of whacking witnesses and using state to conceal evidence (on this I think the court cannot expect him to incriminate himself)

[gout]

I feel it is more of economic problems. Since 2008 around 5 million young Kenyans have come of with meaningful expansion in retail  sector where we deal with Chinese imports. The statistics on the economy not looking good vis a vis our population boom

https://www.centralbank.go.ke/index.php/rate-and-statistics/macroeconomic-statistics

We are definitely heading for more tribal clashes in the near future. Until we solve our political problems.[/conomic problems olor]