Author Topic: Zuma Violated Constitution  (Read 16829 times)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Zuma Violated Constitution
« on: April 01, 2016, 06:04:42 PM »
While Zuma seems to have the police in his pocket, like any good African autocrat, he appears to have no control over the Public Protector(similar to EACC) or the courts.


Here is what the police said in clearing Zuma of any wrongdoing, in a comical report in the best African tradition.
Quote
http://www.voanews.com/content/police-minister-zuma-owes-nothing-for-20-milliion-home-upgrades/2797377.html
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline yulemsee

  • VIP
  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 183
  • Reputation: 102
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2016, 09:15:53 PM »
While Zuma seems to have the police in his pocket, like any good African autocrat, he appears to have no control over the Public Protector(similar to EACC) or the courts.


Here is what the police said in clearing Zuma of any wrongdoing, in a comical report in the best African tradition.
Quote
http://www.voanews.com/content/police-minister-zuma-owes-nothing-for-20-milliion-home-upgrades/2797377.html
What irks me most is the new constitution made these offices independent so that they would carry on with their mandate without undue influence from the executive. What we forgot is once they got their independence they simply sold their services to the highest bidder

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4683
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 03:21:48 PM »
Another African leader who has no ethics. Sad thing is, many cheer him because he is from the neighborhood.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 04:53:41 PM »
While Zuma seems to have the police in his pocket, like any good African autocrat, he appears to have no control over the Public Protector(similar to EACC) or the courts.


Here is what the police said in clearing Zuma of any wrongdoing, in a comical report in the best African tradition.
Quote
http://www.voanews.com/content/police-minister-zuma-owes-nothing-for-20-milliion-home-upgrades/2797377.html
What irks me most is the new constitution made these offices independent so that they would carry on with their mandate without undue influence from the executive. What we forgot is once they got their independence they simply sold their services to the highest bidder
The Public Protector and the Courts and thus far still independent.  They would have protected him if this were Kenya.  But the police seems like a typical African police force working on behalf of the big man in power.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 04:58:05 PM »
Another African leader who has no ethics. Sad thing is, many cheer him because he is from the neighborhood.
He has apologized.  He says he never meant to violate the constitution.  He will not resign.  Zuma has ushered in the era of impunity in SA.  Screw ethics, constitutionalism and the law as long as you have a majority.

"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4683
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 02:30:46 AM »
like uhuru, Zuma used the power of the majority to circumvent the law.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conversation-africa/dramatic-night-in-south-a_b_9600062.html?

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 11347
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2016, 07:37:45 AM »
SA...

The courts seem to have some fair independence. A semifunctional judiciary and civil society. Parliament is undermined by ANC monopoly which rides on apartheid hangover. Black folks blindly back ANC because it saved them from color bar. I believe the emergence of the nationalist EFF is a good development for SA. Zuma and his ilk have to do better than remind folks of apartheid heroism with Maremas on their backs.

Now, as for Kenya... I have lost hope. Look at DPP - I think we were better under AG, at least Pattni attended quarterly mentions. Perhaps mzungu did SA some good afterall. I went there first time 2006 and the hosts openly told us the environment, roads, etc were deteriorating fast under Mbeki. This was at a time Jo'burg was heaven compared to Nairobi. Last year I could not believe it -- SA is fully dilapidated to 3rd world status. So sad.

I think whites are much better at development and general leadership than blacks. Patriotic too. Blacks should just guarantee their racial rights and let white man save them from backwardness.


♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4683
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 07:08:47 PM »
Robina
Most people will label you a white for saying that "whites are better", but for me I'm a pragmatist. our kind are the ones that kill us. Having lived in USA for a while I see the same. We see our brothers as the enemy and always want to patronize them. The ruled become subjects to be used and spat on, rather than people who should be the bosses. Basic facilities tend to revert to primordial being rather than needing  significant improvement. Harare was a first class city in 1990s, but its turned into a disorganized village city. Nothing functions.

SA...

The courts seem to have some fair independence. A semifunctional judiciary and civil society. Parliament is undermined by ANC monopoly which rides on apartheid hangover. Black folks blindly back ANC because it saved them from color bar. I believe the emergence of the nationalist EFF is a good development for SA. Zuma and his ilk have to do better than remind folks of apartheid heroism with Maremas on their backs.

Now, as for Kenya... I have lost hope. Look at DPP - I think we were better under AG, at least Pattni attended quarterly mentions. Perhaps mzungu did SA some good afterall. I went there first time 2006 and the hosts openly told us the environment, roads, etc were deteriorating fast under Mbeki. This was at a time Jo'burg was heaven compared to Nairobi. Last year I could not believe it -- SA is fully dilapidated to 3rd world status. So sad.

I think whites are much better at development and general leadership than blacks. Patriotic too. Blacks should just guarantee their racial rights and let white man save them from backwardness.




Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38450
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2016, 07:33:47 PM »
Maybe the posh areas are deteriorating while other areas are catching up. I am talking for example maybe more black kids in RSA are now going to school? Many more going to College? Maybe rural roads in Kwa Zulu natal are now better. Naturally this money will have to be diverted from posh white majority areas like the big cities.

The point being if you use money to reward certain areas or class of people; then that cannot be sustainable development.

Of course I am not discounting corruption. But if the Whites had educated the blacks (including Zuma) we won't be here in the first place. They didn't and now barely literate people are running the political and public affairs of RSA.

The way forward is for RSA to invest more and more on the majority blacks. RSA cannot develop thro a short cut where a small majority somehow pulls the rest. That cannot happen. The majority will always pull it back.

The good infrastructure that apartheid left is good legacy. But Zuma is also their legacy. The legacy of blacks who were deliberately under-educated.
SA...

The courts seem to have some fair independence. A semifunctional judiciary and civil society. Parliament is undermined by ANC monopoly which rides on apartheid hangover. Black folks blindly back ANC because it saved them from color bar. I believe the emergence of the nationalist EFF is a good development for SA. Zuma and his ilk have to do better than remind folks of apartheid heroism with Maremas on their backs.

Now, as for Kenya... I have lost hope. Look at DPP - I think we were better under AG, at least Pattni attended quarterly mentions. Perhaps mzungu did SA some good afterall. I went there first time 2006 and the hosts openly told us the environment, roads, etc were deteriorating fast under Mbeki. This was at a time Jo'burg was heaven compared to Nairobi. Last year I could not believe it -- SA is fully dilapidated to 3rd world status. So sad.

I think whites are much better at development and general leadership than blacks. Patriotic too. Blacks should just guarantee their racial rights and let white man save them from backwardness.




Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 11347
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 10:17:59 PM »
RVP obviously you have a point. Still Africans we are way back. Rwanda miracle tell us it is possible to have a focused, patriotic leadership for a couple of decades... like the Chinese, Asian Tigers, etc. Don't be superhuman mzungu, no, just attempt to copycat what a Malaysian has done.

SA apartheid is a BENEFIT, RVP, as was the rest of colonialism. The reality is not with you. The more recent mzungu departure the less backward the colony. I recall that debate here sometime ended in a gloomy consensus of mwafrika is clueless.

Even in business you outsource to expats in case you are challenged. Mzungu has his social issues too but mentality is eons ahead of mwafrika. Look at Germany / EU / Japan. Wipe out Japan... 20 years later they are firmly back to top.

Just to note that SA, Zim, etc leadership is rank and file First Class Oxford folks. Kibaki type of intellectuals kina Cyril Ramaphosa, Welshman Ncube, etc. Just too corrupt, tribal and unpatriotic.

50 years of underachievement... what is wrong with us?



♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 10:48:17 PM »
Robina,

Welcome back.  I wish I could find another explanation for the deterioration in RSA.  Zimbabwe.  Haiti 200 years ago(yes it was a rich place).  The reason cannot be intellect because to develop is really just common sense.  The African can do well individually but he sucks at cooperation for the good of the whole.  It might be the result of centuries of being bombarded with negative self image.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2668
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 05:22:52 AM »
Maybe the posh areas are deteriorating while other areas are catching up. I am talking for example maybe more black kids in RSA are now going to school? Many more going to College? Maybe rural roads in Kwa Zulu natal are now better. Naturally this money will have to be diverted from posh white majority areas like the big cities.

I'm not sure I buy that argument.    First, considering cause and effect, it must not be assumed that if rural roads are better and more black kids are going to school, it is necessarily because money has been diverted from majority white areas.   It is possible that those things could have happened even with white rule.

Second, even though most whites live in the cities, the majority of those in the cities are black.   So there is not much comfort in the view that resources are being diverted from whites to the benefit of blacks.

The problem, as I see it, is simply the absence of a maintenance culture, coupled with extremely selfish corruption, and that is all over the continent.   Look at Kenya: A new road will be built or an old road resurfaced, and then it will be allowed to deteriorate to the extent that another new road or major resurfacing is required.   A similar situation applies to just about everything else----buildings, equipment, etc.    Couple that with corruption that is so selfish that eaters don't even remember that they too have to use the same public facilities---Terminator's point about the public good.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4683
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 05:27:02 AM »
 Did you know most residential areas in African cities have no tarmac roads?
I was surprised to see high end areas in NRB with dilapidated roads.
I am sure that BuruBuru is no longer as nice as it used to be.
Most of Africas problems lie in the fact that leaders see themselves as Demigods. They act with impunity and when challenged they use law enforcement to their advantage. Uganda's is a good example. Kenya is going the same way after Kibaki left.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 11347
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 06:02:43 AM »
We seem to agree that corruption and antipatriotism are the root cause of underdevelopment. So my suggestion is to outsource on trial and error basis. Simply pack key institutions with white folks with untainted genetics.

-Anti corruption judicial branch - police, EACC, courts, prisons. Top bosses to be foreigners (whites) of international repute in economic crime bursting.

-Mandate extra resources for this same purpose to avoid subversion by MPs or PORK or court orders.

I am talking katiba level BoR-style clauses here. Not acts of parliament. Other legal administration - buglary, rape, etc we continue with mwafrika as we don't have severe challenges there.


♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2016, 07:35:28 PM »
Maybe the posh areas are deteriorating while other areas are catching up. I am talking for example maybe more black kids in RSA are now going to school? Many more going to College? Maybe rural roads in Kwa Zulu natal are now better. Naturally this money will have to be diverted from posh white majority areas like the big cities.

I'm not sure I buy that argument.    First, considering cause and effect, it must not be assumed that if rural roads are better and more black kids are going to school, it is necessarily because money has been diverted from majority white areas.   It is possible that those things could have happened even with white rule.

Second, even though most whites live in the cities, the majority of those in the cities are black.   So there is not much comfort in the view that resources are being diverted from whites to the benefit of blacks.

The problem, as I see it, is simply the absence of a maintenance culture, coupled with extremely selfish corruption, and that is all over the continent.   Look at Kenya: A new road will be built or an old road resurfaced, and then it will be allowed to deteriorate to the extent that another new road or major resurfacing is required.   A similar situation applies to just about everything else----buildings, equipment, etc.    Couple that with corruption that is so selfish that eaters don't even remember that they too have to use the same public facilities---Terminator's point about the public good.   
There is certainly an issue of lack of maintenance culture.  Nobody maintains anything; there is no point investing in an industry that would support this kind of thing. 

I also think that the African is a poor team leader/player.  Harambee Stars are a good analogy.  On paper, they are as good a team as any that Kenya has ever assembled.  But the officials pocket the allowances allocated for the players.  Everyone, including players, realize it's better to be an official because there is no joy producing on the field.  They end up losing to better organized teams that may even have a lower quality of individual players.

Africa lacks synergy.  For some reason, when a mzungu is in charge, everybody seems to find joy in performing their roles.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4683
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2016, 01:38:14 AM »
I didn't know Zuma is semi-illiterate!!!
Watch this..

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2668
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2016, 05:15:41 AM »
We seem to agree that corruption and antipatriotism are the root cause of underdevelopment. So my suggestion is to outsource on trial and error basis. Simply pack key institutions with white folks with untainted genetics.

-Anti corruption judicial branch - police, EACC, courts, prisons. Top bosses to be foreigners (whites) of international repute in economic crime bursting.

-Mandate extra resources for this same purpose to avoid subversion by MPs or PORK or court orders.

I don't think the problem is that we are fundamentally incompetent or incapable or that we want to solve the problems but don't have the means.    Nobody really wants change----I mean really, really wants it---so the proposed solution is impossible:

* The top 1%---and they control the "levers"---would vigorously oppose it because they like the current "subversive" situation just the way it is.    The last thing they care for is anything that would turn off the taps of looting.   Keep in mind that people are not appointed to critical positions in order to solve any problems; they are appointed to look busy but ensure that nothing changes (and a few others are appointed because they are "our people").   If they do well, then in retirement they get appointed to head parastatals, directorships of government-owned enterprises, etc., where they can enjoy their retirement (i.e. no work) but still get paid; and that's an additional incentive to do "well" in the former positions.   

* The bottom 99%, who get the shit, could force change, but they simply don't care enough, their claims notwithstanding.    When it comes to voting---the one place where they could directly exercise some power---use of the head goes out the window and the issues don't matter; neither do integrity, past performance or potential for performance, etc.  It's all about "our man".   That they might have little to show for "our man" being in place matters little to them.   (Raila might be doing his "job as Opposition" but is largely wasting his time by focusing on issues like corruption, which will have absolutely no effect on how people vote.)  Post-elections, how many people ever make performance demands of their MPs, protest at their office, and generally make demands for performance?

Think about this: In any well-run place, the types of corruption scandals that we get almost weekly would have brought masses of citizens onto the streets.   In Kenya the closest we have come to mass protest is a few hundred comments by readers of the three main dailies.  The same goes for various retrogressive laws that are regularly passed with hardly a whimper from the populace.

Kenyans appear to have hard heads that need some cracking before the owners move to real actions.  Post-independence, we have had only two major changes.   The first was after Moi socked it to people so hard and for so long that they decided enough was enough.  (Has there ever been a better show of Kenyan unity than when people rallied around Kibaki?   Have Kenyans ever been happier about the outcome of any elections?)    The second was in finally passing a new constitution when, after the PEV, people woke up from their complacent belief that Kenya could never go the African way.   (Kenyan could easily have gone that way, had it not been for outsiders, who were subsequently insulted for their assistance.)

My guess is that the third change will come from the youth.   The high unemployment rates of this lot is a disaster waiting to happen, and it will happen when they get tired of the empty "you are the future of Kenya" and decide to forcefully grab their share.     The possibility that the masses will wake up in a mindful way is nonexistent for now; it will eventually happen, but it will take too long.   Likewise the possibility of leadership-driven change is nonexistent: the current landscape does not reveal anyone of the right caliber, and to change the character of the present lot, or at least moderate their venality, would require a wide-awake populace.   So until the next disaster, we will continue to stumble along, with things increasingly getting worse.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2668
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2016, 06:13:30 AM »
There is certainly an issue of lack of maintenance culture.  Nobody maintains anything; there is no point investing in an industry that would support this kind of thing. 

I also think that the African is a poor team leader/player.  Harambee Stars are a good analogy.  On paper, they are as good a team as any that Kenya has ever assembled.  But the officials pocket the allowances allocated for the players.  Everyone, including players, realize it's better to be an official because there is no joy producing on the field.  They end up losing to better organized teams that may even have a lower quality of individual players.

At the "top level", I see the two as being closely related, in that the problem with a lack of maintenance culture shows up at its worst when because of a lack of "team spirit" (i.e. thinking of the greater public good)---e.g. the guy in charge of roads eating maintenance money, or simply not caring, because, after all, it is not his road (or his mother's road, as Kenyans would say). 

Quote
Africa lacks synergy. 

In far too many ways.    On a continental level, think of travel, doing business, etc.    Travelling around Africa on an African passport is not particularly easy, especially for a black person; contrast that with the case of the mzungu and his European passport.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38450
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2016, 08:08:34 AM »
It really disgraceful to read some of you attribute race to stuff. That is just nonsense. There is nothing white about being ethical, no-corrupt, discipline and have so called maintenance culture. These are stuff that are learnt. Learnt either at home or schools or out there. South Africa I believe will do good or bad as the average south African is! Therefore to improve the country; the whole population has to move along. White nations had their time a few centuries ago when they were like Africans; too poor to care! too poor to be ethical! too stupid to do what appear to be commonsensical stuff.

Over centuries they've got better. Africans will get there. Just don't expect this to happen instantly unless folks were to be put under military or colonial rule. They will evolve naturally. Over many years. And the black African is certainly making progress....

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38450
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Zuma Violated Constitution
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2016, 08:13:58 AM »
There is case to outsource some stuff to countries (not necessarily white) that are better than others in some stuff. We can pick an asian or black or african. But it utter nonsense to talk about untainted genetics. There is nothing genetic about our problems.
We seem to agree that corruption and antipatriotism are the root cause of underdevelopment. So my suggestion is to outsource on trial and error basis. Simply pack key institutions with white folks with untainted genetics.

-Anti corruption judicial branch - police, EACC, courts, prisons. Top bosses to be foreigners (whites) of international repute in economic crime bursting.

-Mandate extra resources for this same purpose to avoid subversion by MPs or PORK or court orders.

I am talking katiba level BoR-style clauses here. Not acts of parliament. Other legal administration - buglary, rape, etc we continue with mwafrika as we don't have severe challenges there.