Author Topic: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer  (Read 11511 times)

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2668
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2015, 01:41:20 AM »
Cancers has always been there. But with the population increase , people living longer , better diagnosis ( on average) ,  and more public awareness , and publicity peppered with rhetoric and emotions , we are hearing people screaming ' cancer epidemic'

Yes, it has always been there, but there is much more to the story that "improved awareness".   One trend that should not require much arguentation is the observation that as Africans do better financially, they tend to take up Western lifestyles that are seen as signs of success, regardless of how unhealthy.  Fresh sukuma-wiki gets replaced with all sorts of processed crap that "show" that the eater has "arrived".   That sort of thing.   

During the teacher's strike, I was astonished to read of one teacher's complaints about the effects of not getting paid.  According to the person, things were so bad that his family was being forced to  have breakfast with sweet potatoes instead of [highly processed] white bread, that they had been forced to cut down on the sugar in their tea, etc!   (I wish I could manage to have sweet potatoes for breakfast every morning!)

Back on sukuma-wiki, a purely personal note: Whenever I visit, I am always astonished at the number of "well-off" Kenyans who consider it an embarrassment.   Some form of meat, preferably beef, seems to be the thing for people who are "going places".   The number of Kenyans on that path, and who barely get any fresh vegetables on a regular basis, is surprising.   On my last visit home, when I got overwhelmed with the "meatiness", I told some fellow that on at least one day a week I eat only ugali and sukuma-wiki (which the local farmers produce for animal-feed and products from the seed), and I eat beef no more than twice a month.   He couldn't understand that, perhaps because he was just in the process of getting a barmaid to throw onto a grill a huge slab of beef to go with the beers---which, according to said barmaid, are always ordered "kwa by case", unless one is poor and so, of necessity,  must order a bottle at a time. (My friend does not consider himself  poor.)  The fellow also smokes and apparently never heard of exercise.

Personal anecdotes aside: Numerous studies have shown that while developed countries are trying to shape up, we are picking up where they leave at the bad end of things:

Quote
While cancer rates in general are decreasing in the United States and many western countries, they are increasing in less developed and economically transitioning countries, including Eastern European countries, because of adoption of unhealthy western lifestyles such as smoking and physical inactivity and consumption of calorie-dense food. Cancers that were once known as diseases of industrialized countries, such as lung, colon, and breast cancers, are now commonly occurring in economically transitioning and less developed countries. Most of these countries also continue to be disproportionately affected by cancers related to infectious agents, such as cervix, liver, and stomach cancers, which are potentially preventable.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/19/8/1893.full

Beyond food and lifestyle factors that individuals can control, there are air pollution, pollution from improper disposal of industrial waste, other forms of environmental pollution, etc.   Here is Beijing today:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34957373

In Kenya (and similar places), is anyone monitoring what happens with industrial waste and other dangerous crap?   

Mya88 notes:
Quote
Kenya, as a first, the government should have invested in data to find out why that is the case, if at all they are serious about this......... ie GMO foods, Fertilizer, pesticide, steroids in Animals etc....... and mitigated the cause.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4679
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2015, 02:05:00 AM »
run from Nairobi Hospital to where?

These hospitals will have most of the diagnostic equipments and specialists. But these clinicians work very independently and in isolation with very big egos who do not communicate well , charge extortionate fees . I know how Nairobi Hospital operates in out.  If you have a serious illness that would required in put and teamwork from different specialists and if your treatment is likely to be a long one , RAN AWAY FROM NAIROBI HOSPITAL.

unlike most medical conditions, cancer treatment is very complex and requires highly specialised multidiscplinary approach. You need a team of oncologist , radialogists , histopathologists , pharmacist sitting together and planning treatment. Kenya has a very chaotic , haphazard individualistic approach to managing cancer.

Kenya has no national guidelines on managing cancer. Every body does his /her own stuff. If you are diagnosed with cancer , better go to India or South Africa. Your survival chances will be better.

Institutions like Nairobi hospital and aga khan will never address the cancer problems in kenya. They see money . once money rans out they kick you out. Now they are swindling govt for investment funds under pretext that they will offers state of art treatment to ordinary mwana inchi. That will never happen.


Best start is for kenya to have role out a robust screening program me , offer vaccination against virus mediated cancers like liver cancer, cervical cancer .
Discorage smoking  and changaa , educate public on early warning signs so they seek check up early, etc


Identify 4 regional centers around country and invest heavily on  cancer diagnostic and therapeutics. Bring cancer specialists from India, South Africa , Europe , America to offer their skills on contracts etc.
Jakoyo, are those institution supposed to be addressing the cancer problems in Kenya? Are they equipped with tools to take on cancer? Are they private or government funded?

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4679
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2015, 02:09:02 AM »
Monki
Behaviors are impossible to change until something happens. people like their steak well done and anything else is a fight. Till then theres nothing you can do.

[
quote author=MOON Ki link=topic=2690.msg18539#msg18539 date=1448836880]
Cancers has always been there. But with the population increase , people living longer , better diagnosis ( on average) ,  and more public awareness , and publicity peppered with rhetoric and emotions , we are hearing people screaming ' cancer epidemic'

Yes, it has always been there, but there is much more to the story that "improved awareness".   One trend that should not require much arguentation is the observation that as Africans do better financially, they tend to take up Western lifestyles that are seen as signs of success, regardless of how unhealthy.  Fresh sukuma-wiki gets replaced with all sorts of processed crap that "show" that the eater has "arrived".   That sort of thing.   

During the teacher's strike, I was astonished to read of one teacher's complaints about the effects of not getting paid.  According to the person, things were so bad that his family was being forced to  have breakfast with sweet potatoes instead of [highly processed] white bread, that they had been forced to cut down on the sugar in their tea, etc!   (I wish I could manage to have sweet potatoes for breakfast every morning!)

Back on sukuma-wiki, a purely personal note: Whenever I visit, I am always astonished at the number of "well-off" Kenyans who consider it an embarrassment.   Some form of meat, preferably beef, seems to be the thing for people who are "going places".   The number of Kenyans on that path, and who barely get any fresh vegetables on a regular basis, is surprising.   On my last visit home, when I got overwhelmed with the "meatiness", I told some fellow that on at least one day a week I eat only ugali and sukuma-wiki (which the local farmers produce for animal-feed and products from the seed), and I eat beef no more than twice a month.   He couldn't understand that, perhaps because he was just in the process of getting a barmaid to throw onto a grill a huge slab of beef to go with the beers---which, according to said barmaid, are always ordered "kwa by case", unless one is poor and so, of necessity,  must order a bottle at a time. (My friend does not consider himself  poor.)  The fellow also smokes and apparently never heard of exercise.

Personal anecdotes aside: Numerous studies have shown that while developed countries are trying to shape up, we are picking up where they leave at the bad end of things:

Quote
While cancer rates in general are decreasing in the United States and many western countries, they are increasing in less developed and economically transitioning countries, including Eastern European countries, because of adoption of unhealthy western lifestyles such as smoking and physical inactivity and consumption of calorie-dense food. Cancers that were once known as diseases of industrialized countries, such as lung, colon, and breast cancers, are now commonly occurring in economically transitioning and less developed countries. Most of these countries also continue to be disproportionately affected by cancers related to infectious agents, such as cervix, liver, and stomach cancers, which are potentially preventable.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/19/8/1893.full

Beyond food and lifestyle factors that individuals can control, there are air pollution, pollution from improper disposal of industrial waste, other forms of environmental pollution, etc.   Here is Beijing today:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34957373

In Kenya (and similar places), is anyone monitoring what happens with industrial waste and other dangerous crap?   

Mya88 notes:
Quote
Kenya, as a first, the government should have invested in data to find out why that is the case, if at all they are serious about this......... ie GMO foods, Fertilizer, pesticide, steroids in Animals etc....... and mitigated the cause.

[/quote]

Offline jakoyo

  • VIP
  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • Reputation: 4551
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2015, 12:21:53 PM »
@Moonki,

You are right- even WHO recently classified processed foods and red meet as carcinogenic.

I agree, the lifestyle of your friend ( nyama choma , smoking and pombe ) is a big risk factor for cancer. You will agree with me that over 90% of kenyans cannot afford that lifestyle. So what are their risk ?

Number one killer cancer in Africa is cervical cancer. 80 - 90 % of cancer diagnosis in women is cervical cancer and most women die because of late diagnosis and substandard care. Cervical cancer is caused by a predominantly sexually transmitted virus . If we role out vaccination of our young girls , in next 20-30 yrs we may eradicate this cancer.

Breast cancers is also up there.

Number one reported cancer in men is colorectal cancer. Caused by several factors including the lifestyle you mentioned ( smoking , nyama choma , red meat etc) . Followed by lung , stomach and oesophagus cancer.  - again closely associated with alcohol , smoking and bacterial infection called H Pylori ( dirty food and water ).


Offline jakoyo

  • VIP
  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • Reputation: 4551
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2015, 12:25:25 PM »
@ Parkapen,

If given an option between seeking treatment at Nairobi Hospital and India - i would opt for India.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 05:28:29 PM »
Cancers has always been there. But with the population increase , people living longer , better diagnosis ( on average) ,  and more public awareness , and publicity peppered with rhetoric and emotions , we are hearing people screaming ' cancer epidemic'

Yes, it has always been there, but there is much more to the story that "improved awareness".   One trend that should not require much arguentation is the observation that as Africans do better financially, they tend to take up Western lifestyles that are seen as signs of success, regardless of how unhealthy.  Fresh sukuma-wiki gets replaced with all sorts of processed crap that "show" that the eater has "arrived".   That sort of thing.   

During the teacher's strike, I was astonished to read of one teacher's complaints about the effects of not getting paid.  According to the person, things were so bad that his family was being forced to  have breakfast with sweet potatoes instead of [highly processed] white bread, that they had been forced to cut down on the sugar in their tea, etc!   (I wish I could manage to have sweet potatoes for breakfast every morning!)

Back on sukuma-wiki, a purely personal note: Whenever I visit, I am always astonished at the number of "well-off" Kenyans who consider it an embarrassment.   Some form of meat, preferably beef, seems to be the thing for people who are "going places".   The number of Kenyans on that path, and who barely get any fresh vegetables on a regular basis, is surprising.   On my last visit home, when I got overwhelmed with the "meatiness", I told some fellow that on at least one day a week I eat only ugali and sukuma-wiki (which the local farmers produce for animal-feed and products from the seed), and I eat beef no more than twice a month.   He couldn't understand that, perhaps because he was just in the process of getting a barmaid to throw onto a grill a huge slab of beef to go with the beers---which, according to said barmaid, are always ordered "kwa by case", unless one is poor and so, of necessity,  must order a bottle at a time. (My friend does not consider himself  poor.)  The fellow also smokes and apparently never heard of exercise.

Personal anecdotes aside: Numerous studies have shown that while developed countries are trying to shape up, we are picking up where they leave at the bad end of things:

Quote
While cancer rates in general are decreasing in the United States and many western countries, they are increasing in less developed and economically transitioning countries, including Eastern European countries, because of adoption of unhealthy western lifestyles such as smoking and physical inactivity and consumption of calorie-dense food. Cancers that were once known as diseases of industrialized countries, such as lung, colon, and breast cancers, are now commonly occurring in economically transitioning and less developed countries. Most of these countries also continue to be disproportionately affected by cancers related to infectious agents, such as cervix, liver, and stomach cancers, which are potentially preventable.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/19/8/1893.full

Beyond food and lifestyle factors that individuals can control, there are air pollution, pollution from improper disposal of industrial waste, other forms of environmental pollution, etc.   Here is Beijing today:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34957373

In Kenya (and similar places), is anyone monitoring what happens with industrial waste and other dangerous crap?   

Mya88 notes:
Quote
Kenya, as a first, the government should have invested in data to find out why that is the case, if at all they are serious about this......... ie GMO foods, Fertilizer, pesticide, steroids in Animals etc....... and mitigated the cause.

The reasoning could be that they have eaten enough sukuma wiki to make up for the shortfall after their arrival.  I also think that pollution cannot be ruled out as a contributor.  I remember watching a documentary of a nasty cancer epidemic in Marsabit caused by the water.  One may also want to look into that.  How do factories dispose of their waste and that kind of thing.

That said, it is all speculation.  Assuming there is such a thing as concerned authorities, they ought to spend some coins on experts, even local ones like Jakoyo to look at whatever data they can lay their hands on and determine, what if anything has changed.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline jakoyo

  • VIP
  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • Reputation: 4551
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 08:41:59 PM »
@ Termie,

Kenya like most countries  has reasonably good data on HIV situation in Kenya. This is because of NASCOP. So the same can be done for cancer.

Termie - Are you still an AIDS / HIV denialist ?

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 09:23:38 PM »
@ Termie,

Kenya like most countries  has reasonably good data on HIV situation in Kenya. This is because of NASCOP. So the same can be done for cancer.

Termie - Are you still an AIDS / HIV denialist ?
Denialist is a rather partisan and unscientific term to use for someone holding a different point of view.  But if it's the only choice, sure, I am a card-wielding denialist.  Do I expect an epic retraction from the orthodoxy?  No.

Now that you mention it, how likely could the cancer rates be related to the HIV phenomenon and related interventions?  Is that an area worth looking into?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline jakoyo

  • VIP
  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • Reputation: 4551
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 11:22:24 PM »
@ Termie,

Kenya like most countries  has reasonably good data on HIV situation in Kenya. This is because of NASCOP. So the same can be done for cancer.

Termie - Are you still an AIDS / HIV denialist ?
Denialist is a rather partisan and unscientific term to use for someone holding a different point of view.  But if it's the only choice, sure, I am a card-wielding denialist.  Do I expect an epic retraction from the orthodoxy?  No.

Now that you mention it, how likely could the cancer rates be related to the HIV phenomenon and related interventions?  Is that an area worth looking into?

That's a whole new subject. But yes there is a direct link between HIV and cancer. In Europe it is now standard practice to offer HIV test to all persons diagnosed with cancer. But not in Kenya.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38448
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2015, 09:50:45 AM »
interesting read.

Offline Globalcitizen12

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 1869
  • Reputation: 2875
Re: Indian Deal....Solution to Cancer
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2015, 02:41:03 PM »
Termie,
Yes there is direct link between viral infection from AIDS and cancer. Several Kenyans who have had the luck to get cancer treatment in stateside especially middle aged men have also been diagnosed with AIDs. One friend told me the common cancer I think is called Carcinoma
http://www.cancer.net/cancer-types/hiv-and-aids-related-cancer/overview